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Eric: Hi and welcome to Tap Your App. I am your host, Eric Dyck, co-founder
of Tap for Tap, the tap exchange for mobile app developers. Today we are
here with Thinkling Studios. We have got Simon Bonner and Stewart Wiggins
here to tell us about their wonderful creations, the Thinklings, and some
of the games that they are working on right now. Welcome to the program,
guys. How are you doing?
Simon: Hi. Good. Thanks. How are you?
Stewart: Thank you very much.
Eric ***: Very Well. How is your Apptober going?
Simon: It is progressing nicely. It is kind of intense compared to the last
app we did because obviously we got an eighth of the amount of time to do
it in. I think we learned a lot in the first game. So we are making less
mistakes as we go along, hopefully.
Eric: So you were established earlier this year basically?
Simon: We started talking about it last December and then thought let's
just go for it. We started brainstorming ideas for that, how we could
produce this app. Obviously, it is a growing market. There are so many apps
out there, but we thought, well, we both have got an art creative
background, done a bit of programming and stuff like that as well before,
so we thought we could see if we could jump in at the deep end as it were,
which was found is quite deep.
Eric: Nice. So your first app was Thinklings Space Rescue, is that right?
Simon: Yeah.
Eric: Tell me about your experience with that. How did it go?
Stewart: We really enjoyed making it. We really enjoyed just getting
together and thrashing out the ideas and then started getting into the
software and seeing what works and what does not work. Things were very
fluid and they evolved along the way and one day Simon would be like, "Hey,
check this out. I have just put this build in. We have got a new feature.
Try this and you power up." We had a clear road map of what we wanted to
achieve, but we were kind of fuzzy around the edges sometimes and cut a lot
of the fat along the way to try and make sure we got to where we wanted to
go, but were not too strict about – We needed to make sure it was going to
be good and not stick to ideas that did not work just because we had
already spent time on them, you know what I mean?
Simon: Yeah, the road map had quite big detours along the way as we went,
yeah.
Eric: Nice. So, how did you launch Thinkling? Sorry. How did you launch
Space Rescue, this particular game? Was it is a paid one to start?
Simon: We went straight in with just putting in lowest hit bracket because
obviously we were quite new to this, so we did not know all about it, and
since then we have looked at different models about how we can do our next
game with premium. But Thinkling Space Rescue, we thought we would just put
it out there just to see what kind of response we could get to it. Like
Stewart said, it is a Hello World app, so we just wanted to get something
out there to prove that we could do it for ourselves. The marketing of it
was a completely steep learning curve for us. So, we tried everything like
doing the promo videos, getting involved in social networking with Twitter
and Facebook and things like that, and doing things like this for the
interview. Yeah, it was a continuous process.
Stewart: We contacted a lot of websites and local presses. We had some
articles published in our local press.
Eric: Oh, nice.
Stewart: They reach people who live in our actual area, but not Internet
people. I think sometimes because it is a digital product, the digital
marketing is probably more beneficial than physical printed newspaper
articles, although that raises awareness which is great. We have contacted
lots of websites, lots of blogs and submitted for lots of reviews, because
we do not know anyone in the industry. So we are trying to get our name out
a little bit. It is good fun but it is a big learning curve and it has been
quite a challenge.
Eric: So which of those items between social news, publicity stunts, or any
of those things, in which did you see the best returns from?
Simon: To be honest, so far I think it was when the iPad version came out.
We did not have both versions ready. We just wanted to get one out there.
So we did the iPad version first and then converted it for iPhone. That was
in the old style app store, so it went in the new releases. Actually, the
new releases pretty much got us most of what we have got because as we were
building it we did not have too much to chat about it, so we went on
Twitter and Facebook and got videos done, but that was all as it came out.
With this Apptober thing we have been doing more blogging and trying to get
more interest built up along the way with the next app. So it is the
initial launch of the app on iPad got the most attention because it was
there in the new releases in the App Store. Until people know who you are
and what to look for, it's like we are obviously not [inaudible 05:02].
They do not know to look for what we have got coming. Hopefully, the more
apps we get out there, the more awareness we can get for our games and they
can link to each other. That is kind of why we have chosen these Thinklings
for us for this Apptober app as well because it is something that can tie
to each other as well as being an idea that we can use in a lot of
different ways.
Eric: Yeah. So explain to me the philosophy behind the Thinklings, and
where it came from?
Stewart: OK. The Thinklings are characters that travel through the galaxy
and they bring inspiration. So we had a thought about or a Thinkling about
Leonardo Da Vinci and all his creations. There are all these Thinklings
sitting in his picture, giving him all these ideas and showing him a
helicopter and showing him all these fantastic creations. So we coined the
little stars as being these characters and then thought they can just
transcend anything. They can be attributed to different things. So,
science; one can be an inspiration for science. One can be the inspiration
for the arts. So we thought we wanted to take it into our games where if
you rescue a particular Thinkling then you will be rewarded with something
that that Thinkling inspires. One of the Thinklings might be centered
around sports or athletics so it would reward you with speed, for example.
Eric: I like that. As we are discussing it, it is sort of the sky is the
limit. Because they are inspirations, they can transcend into any type of
situation or any time period even I am sure?
Stewart: Yeah. That is right. That is the way we see it going. We see them
being inter-dimensional beings. They are very ethereal really. They do seem
to get themselves into a little bit of trouble and need to be rescued a
little bit which is a juxtaposition on these really intelligent creative
beings but perhaps they are delicate and they need looking after in some
way.
Simon: They need the nurturing and obviously you got to get the humans out
there to actually go and rescue them, so then the humans can have more
ideas.
Eric: I think I have been visited by a few Thinklings in my day. So I think
I know what you mean.
Simon: We would like think that most people get the odd Thinkling every now
and again.
Eric: Yeah. That is really neat. So the Thinkling is going forward. So you
are now working on a new adventure for the Thinklings that is as yet
unnamed?
Simon: I think the naming process for us evolves along the way as we
develop something. We know the Thinklings are going to be in there, but
other than that, the game is progressing nicely but the name is not quite
there yet.
Eric: When are you hoping to release it?
Simon: Because we are going for this Apptober thing, we are trying to get
it done within the month of October. So we want the game completed by the
31st of October and then submit to Apple after that. What we would probably
to do is to make sure we have got all versions, ready at the same time.
Actually we have set a release date for it around about the second week of
November if it's approved. I do not know how quick Apple works at the
moment.
Eric: Nice. What is the division of labor between you two?
Simon: Stew is definitely more of the graphics guy. Well, before we started
this, he worked for about six or seven years in proper graphic design and
web design. It kind of crosses over a little bit. I have got some graphic
design background, but mine is more video and a bit more of the programming
type of stuff. It is mostly graphics for Stew and programming for me, but
then there are crossovers, depending on what ideas you have and stuff. When
you are having stuff like that, you have to get them down and share them.
Stewart: We'll say, "OK, this is how I want it to work. Let us play around
with this. Change this. Change this," and then, "OK. Now you make it look
neater or you make it work better." I think the relationship works. We have
known each other for 15 or 20 years or so. We have had a long relationship.
Simon: We went to school together.
Eric: You can tell. Finishing each other's sentences and what not.
Stewart: Yeah. That is it. So it is like, when we have an idea and you
might come up with a little spark, and we will fan it into a flame, and
then suddenly we have a forest fire going on. That really works well
between us. It is never that we shout each other down. We don't have that
kind of a relationship. We are very much progressional. "The next idea, the
next idea, the next idea. OK. Let us bring it in to make it happen."
Simon: Yeah. A lot of backwards and forwards. We might end up going down a
complete tangent, but we will end up being, "Oh, hang on. We better stop
this here because this will have to be another app completely" kind of
thing.
Eric: So you throw it in the book and move on?
Stewart: That is it. We have got a massive list of stuff we want to do. We
just need to make the time to do it.
Eric: Yeah. I have been lucky enough to in this startup for Tap For Tap to
work with a number of my friends. It is great to be able to collaborate
with people that you are close with.
Stewart: Yeah.
Simon: Yeah. If you are on the same wave length as well.
Eric: Cool. What is your strategy? You said you learned a lot when you
launched Thinklings Space Rescue. What are your plans when you are
launching this new app at the end of October?
Simon: Well, as far as trying to get out, we are definitely going to go
with a freemium model for it because with it being free you have got so
much more opportunity for people to go, "Oh, I will have it. I will have a
try at that. I will download it." It is no risk to them whatsoever. Then,
with the freemium option, we hope to have a game that is good enough to
convince them to then part with their money as opposed to the first game,
Thinklings Space Rescue. It is a little bit of a risk even though it is in
the lowest tier. It is like, "No, I could try five or six different free
games and maybe get as much enjoyment out of them." So the freemium model
is the way to go for this one for us, we think.
Eric: So, the upgrades will be for new levels in the game or new powers?
Simon: It will be more that we are going to use an in-game currency that
you use to unlock stuff within it. If you want to and like the game enough
and will play it long enough, you can actually unlock the complete game for
free without paying for anything. Hopefully, people will see that it is
beneficial. If they want to unlock stuff quicker, they can pay for some
more currency, but also we hope that they realize that even by paying the
smallest amount for a little upgrade within the game, they are actually
helping us develop more games from this as well. I know it is a business,
but what we are also doing is we like playing games as well, and if feel
that something is worth paying for, that is what we do.
Stewart: Yeah.
Eric: Nice. That makes sense. So let us back up a little bit here. Do you
guys program the games yourselves or do you outsource it?
Simon: We use Game Salad mostly for the coding.
Eric: Game Salad, nice.
Simon: It is such an easy tool to get to grips with. As long as you can get
your head around the logic of what it does, it is more the limits of what
you actually can think of to do with it.
Eric: Thinkling of, yes.
Simon: Yeah. Yes. So we use Game Salad for that. We tend to approach it so
that we will come up with the idea for the game and just build a complete
wire frame version of it, just basic graphics, create the actors and then
just play around with it, adjust the settings, adjust the levels, and how
difficult, how easy we can do that? Once we have got a version that is
probably 90% there for the way it plays, we will then start thinking of the
graphics, and how we will bring that in and then how we will turn it into
the quality product afterwards.
Eric: Nice. I noticed in your trailer … I haven't actually downloaded
Space Rescue, but do you put much attention into the music of your games?
Simon: I am from a film background and something that a lot of people do
not realize is that sound is so important for movies, and it really can
change the way you look at stuff. So we have really tried to get as much as
we could get into the game sound-wise. We have probably spent more time
looking for the right sounds and creating the right sounds and getting the
music in there than we did for programming some areas of it. It was quite
an intensive process. Also, you have got to listen to so much of it to get
the thing that you think is right.
Stewart: Neither of us are professional musicians. So we don't have the
capacity to create original music per se, whereas on the graphics side and
the programming side, that's something we very much handle entirely
ourselves as opposed to going online and see what we can find.
Eric: Yeah. It is something I really noticed the attention to in your
trailer. I think your trailer is really well put together. You can see your
film backgrounds there because it just really drew me in. I am going to go
download the app because of that trailer. Did you guys cut that yourselves
as well?
Simon: Yeah. Stew did the graphics for it and I did the editing and the
motion graphics and stuff for it.
Stewart: When I saw it the first day having done all the drawings, I
thought it just jumped off the screen. Simon really brought it to life, and
it was really exciting to see the graphics. Those were just static
graphics, but Simon made them into more than they were. I was really
excited to see it.
Eric: Nice. Just in taking in the content on your website, the spirit of
your endeavor seems really cheery and tongue in cheek and really funny.
When I just went to a Casual Connect recently, and one of my friends spoke
at the show about humor in games and humor in game development and how
important it was. I was curious where you have guys derived your humor
from?
Simon: Well, I depends how far you want to go back. We grew up with British
comedies like Black Adder and stuff like that. There are lot of those kind
of elements in there and things like Red Wolf and stuff obviously for the
space thing.
Eric: Obviously, yeah.
Simon: Yeah. We take it where we can get it. Look, putting in the game is
something we thought is important. We want things to be upbeat. We want
them to be fun. We want the whole game experience to be enjoyable as much
as we can do with it. For example, in the Apptober app we are putting a
couple of Easter egg things in there as well. So it is not really part of
the game, but we are going to run a little competition with it as well
because every level that we are designing is going to have a little
something hidden in it. It is quirky funny, but as you would say, hopefully
the eagle eye will spot it in a kind of funny way, a Wally kind of way.
Stewart: Where's Waldo, I think you guys call it.
Eric: Yeah. I grew up with Where's Waldo. I can always find Waldo. Have you
guys gone into many other app – Do you have your own little app developer
community where you are? Are there other app developers around you that
you've reached out to or are you just with each other?
Stewart: We are a little bit on our own, I think. We don't know anyone
locally or any further in our field really, other than through the
Internet, maybe a few forums that we have posted on from time to time, but
we have not massively engaged with any particular community as yet. We are
not willing to at all, but we are open to it entirely. I think often we
find ourselves so focused on what we are doing, we do not come up for air
that often and ask for help from a community or reach out to them in that
way.
Simon: I think the main one we have been involved with but not to a massive
extent would be the Game Salad forums and stuff like that. Obviously, with
that thing we talk of programming, it is good to get feedback and see what
other people are asking and get your answers and stuff like that. If you
know something, it is great to contribute a little bit, to give someone
else a hand as well. We have connected with a couple of people through
Twitter as well which has been quite useful. Yeah, there is the occasional
conversation going on there with a hashtag, and we can follow maybe, a bit
of Q&A which is useful as well, but locally in the real world I don't know
there is much going around here.
Eric: Yeah. Game Salad, I have a lot about the Game Salad community and
just everyone's willingness to help there. Yeah. That is really cool. What
is your Twitter handle?
Simon: It is @ThinklingApps.
Eric: And you have the Thinkling hashtag?
Simon: Thinkling, and Thinkling is what we use, yeah, depending on whether
it is them or an idea.
Eric: Great. I was wondering, have you tried any paid, or do you plan on
trying any paid marketing channels for your app, your upcoming one?
Simon: At the moment, it is something that we are still in discussion
about. We were thinking that we have not got a massive advertising budget,
so we really need to pick the thing that we want to choose. Something that
we have thought about is maybe, doing paid tweets on Twitter so there is
that focus, but I am not sure how open that is at the moment because I
think that is still actually almost in [inaudible 18:40] with that and I'm
not entirely sure how to utilize it as well. Other than that, I think the
main thing we are going to try and do is actually get in touch with
reviewers to get reviewed. We are not really at home with paying for
reviews. Our philosophy is that we'd like to have an honest review. I don't
feel that you would get an honest review if you are paying them for the
review because it would be more like a paid editorial, which we can write
our own editorials anyway. We would go, "Yeah. The apps is great. Check it
out." A gamer would approach it from reading a review, from someone they
trust and they know who is actually completely impartial.
Eric: Nice. I think that makes perfect sense. Great. Well, I want to thank
you guys for coming by the show today. I wish you great success. Everyone
should follow Simon and Stewart, follow their adventures at Thinkling
Studios.
Simon: That is right. Yeah.
Stewart: On Twitter, it's @ThinklingApps.
Eric: Please follow them @ThinklingApps and be on the lookout for their new
release and check out Space Rescue. Thanks a lot, guys.
Simon: Thanks very much. Cheers.
Stewart: Thanks very much. Cheers. Bye-bye.