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smell that interview with that tension from the nation magazine author of spies
for hire
the secret world of intelligence and tourist
so tema let's just have to to place this uh... in context uh... your your
interviews with
some of
ful whistleblowers who have been uh... really
if not uh... prosecuted uh... persecuted in many ways by
this administration place into context for us
gail bomb administration in terms of of its crackdown on whistleblowers and its
use in particular the espionage act
well that act
words
past and during world war one and it's only been new sporadically was used
against uh... daniel ellsberg in the seventies
but what about use against people like aldrich ames were actual traders an
actual supplies to
pasar secrets and sold secrets to enemy countries like the soviet union
uh... this case auger under the obama station has used to uh... the espionage
acts record six times
to go after people not curbing spies so much spoke for a week in co
allegedly leaking classified information
and most it's been used against people who have a
to a park to reporters
all back
information that the government considers classified but its information
basically about either government agencies or corporations or breaking the
law or in this case
finding fraud waste and abuse of the national security agency
and we say it that uh... it's not simply that day uh... spoken to reporters about
classified information because frankly
we see that almost on a daily basis uh... whether we get in the in the uh...
in articles written the new york times in the washington post
um... the uh...
the entire drone program
uh... was a function of
of i guess
uh... allowed leaks and mean these are specifically leaks that the
administration didn't want to be late
exactly and and also i'm not sure that in this case not to be explorers a
whistle blowers rewritten released herb we're proud to have released classified
information
hardly only one of them who was actually charged was promised draped of who was
the most where the highest security clearance of my man was feet high had
the highest level job at the national security agency
uh... he was prosecuted under the espionage act and and several other
uh... federal counts
it was mostly had to do with his discussions with one reporter over a
program
uh... pol pot didn't read that i talked about on the article that have been
developed in-house
by us es and say scientists
and they also the daughter that reporter about this uh... corporate
uh... private program called of trailblazer that
date but the whistle blowers believed had uh... what well it's basically they
would conducted fraudulently and there was uh... tremendous of waste of money
on an abuse of power american air specific program
so tell us about the uh... uh... for whistleblowers thomas drake william
penney
uh... j kirk why the and edward loomis
well art
tom bray good work
uh... started out as uh...
on in the air force you know in the in these planes apply around the world
picking up signals
and he said he had been a bald and signals intelligence ah... since it was
a soldier and then he went on to the c_i_a_ after that this is like twin
eighties early nineteen nineties he went
two years uh... a as a contractor
and uh... he he
actually was their several times as a contractor in till he was hired full
time
and two thousand wine and he was there until two thousand eight at at the
n_s_a_
the other three were were basically uh... you know uh... what prime minister
employees who have started working there in the nineteen sixties
and up to a film ed luminous and bill bailey
had been involved in new york computer program software engineering
and uh... in the case of berries
hidden in the case of building in oklahoma mapping out
how to track
and can intercept communications around the world
arquette kirk we'd be was uh... elicited now uh... was an analyst off for poor
various programs onto analyzing samples of tulsa so between them they had about
now hundred twenty years maybe up at the national security agency
and so they know put me inside
a hollow work samba and they know a tremendous amount about the technology
uses to to intercept uh... kam communications telephone calls in the
and and emails
and has the story for us three of those whistleblowers loomis uh... witty and
uh... danny
goes back to two thousand two uh... tell us of what'd they do that began
this process that ended uh... with them
uh... really in many respects having their lives destroyed by the
via the u_s_ government
or what happened was approved the as raw meat
beloit last people to do a few if u find uh... fraud waste and abuse within the
government
they want and reported of what they considered a tremendous amount of fraud
involved in this project called trailblazer which was a privatized
uh... intelligence system that had been ordered up by the national security
agency
in and in and two thousand
uh... and uh... they went and ate
the wrote a letter and said the uh... you know you should look into this
mission investigate this a baby
made it sure does no one
tutor to do the defense department
anton break who is as i've said it was a high level and i say exceed joined
their complaint are as as a uh... he was supposed to be in on this but he he
provided evidence though for their case
and i was also one other person i mention americorps diane rourke
who is a house
uh... stuff for a very high level bugs in the house intelligence committee and
she knew all about these programs and she also knew
about the fraud and waste and abuse and she had also join this complaint and and
actually it's very important
or was supposed to know that the uh... pentagon office and specter general took
off
this complaint investigated
and in two thousand five issued a report that at the time was classified
that essentially uh... basically essentially backed up
all the complaints made by these whistleblowers we did find father did
find ways to did find abuse
and uh... lt then that report was uh... eventually declassified in two thousand
eleven
and uh... it was it was uh... the parts you can actually read and there's a wink
and my article to to the report
all you can see that
you know how much they actually did of backup discharges
at least personal blowers had made
unfortunately they've reported this uh... right around the time that the the
swirls wilbur after they reported the new york times
broke the story about the secret uh... war was surveillance program that had
been started at the end i say
right after nine eleven and the bush administration at that time began to
massive search for whoever was they brought you know it would leak this
information to the new york times
and so draped in the others were caught up
in this investigation into the week
and their names were somehow passed to the uh...
stu prosecutors at the justice department
drake eventually was the only one actually charged
the other ones lost their security clearances
and lost their ability to ever worked in intelligence again
and so uh... now and and and where they think they have any involvement in the
uh... leaks regarding the uh... illegal wiretapping
they did not
they did not that dash for you know that wiretapping story of the week
uh... came from somebody in the justice department who later admitted to
actually they had nothing to do with that leak whatsoever
and uh... prom drake was charged of because he had spoken and communicated
with a reporter for the baltimore sun of but he did not attach any classified
information on he passed you know he gave her some d unclassified information
uh... that was used in an article
and date they took that as a sign that he was he was weak unclassified
information which he was not
okay so what we've got to take a break but we have now uh... four five
uh...
members of the n_s_a_ who reported on
uh... massive amounts of fraud and abuse in the uh... it within a project that
was to gather intelligence essentially they're concerned both about the fraud
and abuse
and d uh...
the a fact that would have on their capacity at that time
uh... to do real intelligence work which uh... particularly in two thousand two
two thousand three two thousand four
there was a uh... and they did it continues i would imagine but um...
eighty-eight a serious and a desperate need
to gather intelligence with good take a break when we come back
you have google talk about the rest of the story
what has happened to them since this and and why we're gonna take a break we'll
be right back after this
so tembo we've outlined the story of these an essay whistleblowers and from
although you told us before the break
these were
or for five individuals
rule assembly reported
in the way that we would want our government officials to do
to the proper channels in reporting on fraud and waste there uh... their
complaints were vindicated by the inspector general
uh... which show that there are complaints religion amid so why is that
not the end of the story why it why where these people
prosecuted
u_s_-north something that's very difficult parents or i can't quite
figure out
what is up with the obama administration on this uh... because with the bush
administration didn't uh... you don't want to begin the investigation into
these
individuals
and then at when the abar administration came in
are they the justice department decided to carry out their work and decided to
indict account reckon it seems to be there is tremendous
pressure on the justice department and the white house
to stop leaks at all costs are they've been picking a very extreme steps to do
this
uh... it's it's it to me it's a it's not clear and does not drive at all with
work
all bomb on president obama promised in terms of openness and transparency
and governments admits it will you get a mystery to me and something i can answer
i think that something
all ended obon administration and perhaps uh... jerry jarrell eric holder
can answer why they went after these people
well enough to know how easy it is the pentagon's office of inspector general
uh... basically said that their 'em their whistle blowing on this fraud
abuse was legitimate
what was are we seeing and there was no evidence that they were passing on
information
then anyway damaged uh... intelligence-gathering operations of the
united states
uh... and and and maybe i'm asking you speculate beyond where you want to
speculate budget do you have indication talking to these uh... individuals that
this was retribution not so much for endangering u_s_ security interests bud
rather for reporting on waste and abuse
uh... within the a bureaucracy
well the key point of these programs was was this
in inside the n_s_a_
uh... had luminous and bill benny
had developed a program called parenthood
that was designed too
to intercept
uh... mecca communications coming in tokyo by the internet
uh... into the united states it very very rapid speed dropped out of stock
moves on loved by rob teksystems it's incredible amount of information
that inundated goes through these lines and they were older
develop a system that could
uh... icky that could there could be could actually do the analysis at the
point of interception analysis meaning
it'll put in numbers and helped a number of uct but known terrorist in
afghanistan animated blind calls to and from that particular individual men
and then bill bailey had designed a a graph
uh... system we could grab that relationships between callers and and
cheryl
analyst with their relationships between you know caller a car be carseat
it could be seen as some kind of network and might be able to use to predict what
might happen in the future or what they were planning
if you could actually charred lecture with something to the actual calls by
these people so they are designed a system like that
that actually worked as i described in the story
they tested the system
and uh... at that very high level there is a listening posts
and then in august two thousand one they were told the system would not be people
saw it
and in fact the what had happened was never say had gone for a system that
they said would do all that but much more
that they contract it out to a company called essay i see
and several other large defense contractors which is lockheed martin
and uh... and northrop grumman's
and that's just it was
this bill billions of dollars report into as opposed to only three million
dollars a misprint replaced
this trailblazer project went on for years
they never produced ohio that other intelligence analyst ali canceled and
two thousand six and what they say what do you push the boris told me and what i
call it the missing at their system had been in place in the weeks leading up to
nine eleven they believe
they would have been able to track some of the relationships between health care
al-qaeda operatives
that could have tipped off
u_s_ intelligence they basically say harris intelligence stopped in its
tracks when they cancelled
their program and that's what really infuriated and that was one point
they also were very upset after are at nine eleven by the fact that
you know technology that they had pieces of their program but then fred program
that they had this it is the graphic software that they had built
pieces of the program which they are designed both foreign intelligence you
know gotta keep this in mind and that they are supposed to be spying on it you
know foreign countries people in poor countries foreigners not americans eight
uses to track
conversations and distract you know emails and and communications on all
americans motherboards we turn the system designed for for intelligence on
to the american people
really disturbing them and that's why
hillbilly currently being mad loomis left after after nilesh shortly after
nine eleven they left the agency
because they didn't like seeing you know noted that the agency turned into a
to uh... to uh... organization which they which by the americans against that
went against the grain of everything they've ever learned
while working at a say
and so that's that's part of and so they say basically the trailblazer program
you know failed
intelligent failed american people and failed to actually provoked provide any
intelligence
and that's what
i believe is being covered up that's what i believe they went out to these
people retribution it was tremendously embarrassing
to be and i say is tremendously embarrassing
to the bush administration in the u_s_ government that they went for it
corporate
uh... privatized program it never worked
and then now we have the album administration at least uh... carrying
on that uh... that process of
of uh... centrally breaking um... the uh... these individuals financially and
in turn and socially and
um... leaving them uh... really and and and in dire straits and
um... presumably i guess to make sure that uh... to the extent that they tell
their story
uh... diet is at least some what disregarded but i appreciate the work
you've done in uncovering it uh... to end and i appreciate your time
talking about it today
thank you so much