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>>> Coming up next on "Arizona
Horizon's" journalists'
roundtable, the governor talks
with federal officials about
re-opening Grand Canyon
National Park.
The 9th Circuit Court of
Appeals upholds an injunction
on a portion of S.B. 1070.
And we'll talk about the
state's plans to implement a
dual-track voting system.
The journalists' roundtable is
next on "Arizona Horizon."
>>> "Arizona Horizon" is made
possible by contributions from
the friends of 8, members of
your Arizona PBS station.
Thank you.
>>> Good evening and welcome to
"Arizona Horizon's"
journalists' roundtable.
I'm Ted Simons.
Joining me tonight are Mary Jo
Pitzl of "the Arizona
Republic," Mike Sunnucks of
"The Phoenix Business Journal"
and Jeremy Duda of "The Arizona
Capitol Times."
The federal government shutdown
continues, but there's a chance
-- moments ago, as we start our
show here, 5:30, moments ago it
sounds like the Grand Canyon
national park will reopen.
What happened?
>> Late in the day, the
governor's office announced,
governor brewer's office
announced they reached an
agreement with the department
of the interior.
There had been a conference
call this afternoon preceded by
a lot of back-and-forth, but
this deal will keep the park
open for seven days using state
funds and private funds.
It will be a full opening of
the park.
So trails down into the canyon
are open, river trips will
continue.
It's not a partial opening that
brewer had been pushing for.
>> Do we know if there will be
any guarantee of federal
reimbursement?
>> It depends on Congress but
they are hopeful that Arizona's
congressional delegation well
work to secure refunding, which
is an interesting point because
many members in the house have
been among the most vocal
saying we need to keep the
government shut down, we've got
to keep our feet to the fire,
we're spending too much and
mostly this is the way of
trying to get their way on
Obamacare.
Reimbursing the state is one
more expense to the federal
government.
>> How much did Utah getting a
deal with the federal
government impact what Arizona
did?
>> It's hard to say but I can't
imagine they really liked
seeing the press of the
governor talking about how
their national parks are
suddenly opening and here's jan
brewer and the department of
the interior still hashing out
some details.
She's been taking -- initially
she said that this was not a
high priority, that there are
other priorities.
There's a lot of other federal
funding the state gets,
programs for the children, the
elderly, those are the
priorities.
She said the Grand Canyon is
not a big priority.
She spent the last week and a
half badgering the Obama
administration, they denied it.
She fought back and asked them
to do this.
>> I talked to someone in the
Utah governor's office and they
said, you know, tell your
people, Utah's open for
business.
So to your point about how much
does the Utah situation put
pressure on Arizona, there's a
bunch of national parks,
they're just over the border,
that can't be a good message
for tourism in Arizona.
>> But for seven days, a good
message for businesses.
>> This really became the top
issue over a lot of those other
programs, the business tourism
sectors were really concerned
about this as a high time for
them.
You saw McCain get on board.
The Utah stuff really pushed
it.
The governor pushed her
economic recovery agenda and it
kind of worked against it when
she said it wasn't important.
>> You have the town of Tucson
and a lot of local businesses
up there that are very
dependent on the business.
They already said they put
$400,000 to keep this open.
So it's obvious how important
it is.
This is the Grand Canyon state,
it's one of the main reasons
people come here.
[ Indiscernible ]
>> I think that put a lot of
pressure on her to kind of
follow suit and do that because
here was a Republican
conservative governor that kept
it open during the
gingrich-Clinton shutdown.
>> Where is the money going to
be coming from to keep the park
open?
>> They've identified some
money in the state parks budget
that has not been appropriated,
and then they talk about other
funds which presumably is money
from business people.
We really don't know what the
other sources are.
And despite, maybe even with
the late-breaking developments
today, there's a van full of
state lawmakers that were
planning a trip and they're
still going to go tomorrow.
Their main intent is to show
support for the businesses up
there but representative bob
thorpe, who's one of the folks
who's going to be going, his
initial plan was to try to get
into the park, walk up to the
gate and very politely ask to
visit with his constituents,
his argument is that Grand
Canyon is within his district
and he needs to talk to these
people.
He won't have to get anybody's
permission, although he may
have to pay an entrance fee.
>> Interesting.
>> They may get their chance,
too.
This is an agreement for seven
days and who knows how long the
shutdown is going to last.
>> So as far as the membership
is -- as far as the money is
concerned, what happens?
It sounds like things are
moving back in D.C. but what
happens if after seven days...
>> A lot of pressure to keep it
open beyond that.
How do you go back on having it
and reopening it and closing it
again?
I think they're banking on
something happening but who
knows back there with all the
gridlock and the inability to
get something done.
It is a valid debate.
We're spending this money on
the canyon, all the other
things that have been shut
down, the poor people, the sick
children, all that type of
stuff, important programs that
aren't being fund asked we have
a couple of states opening
national parks which have their
place but you can make an
argument for other stuff.
>> When I find interesting
about the whole shutdown is
that it makes the argument
despite what people said that
this isn't going to affect
anybody, you're not going to
feel it well, you know, every
day there's a couple of stories
that come out about how the
shutdown is affecting people in
different constituencies.
So, you know, it's the Grand
Canyon, are we going to hear
people from the national
monument.
Nobody's stumping for them.
So it sort of makes an argument
that there are reasons that all
these things are in it together
in something called the federal
government, the federal budget.
>> And there was earlier before
this controversy regarding
welfare payments, Arizona the
only state to not get those out
as the government shut down.
That was quickly remedied.
>> Yeah, the temporary
assistance for needy families
program, monthly cash payments
to low-income families and that
looked like it was going to be
one of the first casualties,
they said it's not going to be
funded now.
And after a few days, there
were some press stories
alleging that Arizona was the
only country that cut this off
and the governor's office is
saying we don't know if it's
true but that looked bad.
And apparently, Arizona's one
of the only 11 states that only
uses federal funds for this
program in the first place.
So there's only 11 states that
would have been affected.
That's a very visible impact
from the shutdown is very
low-income people who are
depending on this money.
>> It also shows that when it
comes to low-income people in
Arizona, the state's not there
for them.
The state depends on federal
money for those payments and
when there ain't no federal
money because of the shutdown,
there is no state money, except
in this kind of emergency where
miraculously, after initially
saying they couldn't do it,
found a way to shuffle money
and bring it in.
But what I thought the lesson
was is that Arizona is very
dependent on federal funds for
that assistance.
It's not going to come from the
state.
>> I think the media coverage
of both of these things really
drove the changes from the
governor's office and other
folks to reference the
course -- to reverse the case.
Just the negative press that
again here's Arizona the only
one not doing that played a big
role in that.
>> And we should mention, as
well.
This is only until the end of
the month.
When November comes, not only
do you have it to worry about,
but nutritional health
programs, a whole bunch of
other things that again the
state -- this is provided the
government shutdown continues,
if it does, the state's going
to be in real trouble here.
>> $650,000 that the des is
shifting from elsewhere, that
is only for about 3,200 of
16,500 families receiving the
assistance.
Recognized that for all 16,500
for a full month after that,
that is going to start costing
a lot of money and I don't know
that the state can afford to do
that.
>> You mentioned there's the
nutritional assistance program,
money will dry up after the end
of October and there's a lot of
other state agencies that are
using money they had already
gotten for a lot of the federal
programs.
That puts more pressure on
Republicans in Washington and
our congressional delegation
that support the shutdown
because all these stories, all
these programs, that's going to
start putting more pressure on
them and puts them at a
disadvantage.
>> Do you think they're feeling
the pressure, though?
>> The public opinion polls
show Republicans getting
hammered but they're in that
echo chamber trying to figure
out what to do with their
caucus with the Tea Party and
their vocal contingent within
the party.
So I think it's starting to
increase and as you see things
like this where state
governments are starting to see
the strain and won't be able to
fill these gaps, I think the
GOP feels more pressure.
>> And then attention becomes
do you rely on the states with
I guess federal permission to
piecemeal, reopen parts of the
government or do you just keep
the pedal on the accelerator
and say we've got to until
everything can come back up,
pedal I guess on the brake
rather and wait until
everything comes back up all at
once.
>> That's going to be a huge
split in the GOP between the
governors and the very
Republican governors in a lot
of states trying to run a
government and pay for those
things versus the or
ideological partisan folks in
Congress which don't really run
anything.
>> We've seen governor brewer a
couple of times hint that she
really wishes the Republicans
would knock it off with making
the continued resolution
funding contingent on the
Obamacare.
She said she doesn't think the
shutdown is worth it if you can
get the delay of the mandate.
It's the law, there's an
election, there's a Supreme
Court race.
She made some stronger
statements a couple of days
ago.
She's still saying well both
sides at fault but she's kind
of hinting that the Republicans
need to knock this off.
>> And actually more than
hinted.
She said that if Obamacare gets
shut down, which doesn't seem
likely, that impacts the state
budget.
Arizona's state budget for this
current year is built on the
assumption that Medicaid's
going to expand, that brings in
money.
If we don't expand it, if we
don't have the federal
healthcare reform, then that's
going to have severe
consequences.
>> Even a partisan ideological
governor like jan brewer, she's
trying to run a state versus a
legislative body back in
Congress that can just talk and
so I think you're going to see
that split highlighted, even
from conservative governors.
>> And real quickly, the feds
are going to repay this money,
the des money, correct?
I thought I heard that they
would do that, as opposed to
the parks.
>> They told other states they
were going to reimburse them.
>> Obama will be here on the
tarmac and jan can hand him an
iou.
>> We'll look forward to that.
>>> Arizona also making the
headlines regarding a voting
system and this by way of an
illegal opinion by tom horn.
>> This stems from a supreme
court ruling over our
proposition 200, prior people
in Arizona to show proof of
citizenship to register to
vote.
The Supreme Court said you
can't do that because there are
federal forms.
People can find federal forms
that don't have the same
requirements.
You can require from the state
but you have to accept these
federal forms that don't
require people to show proof of
citizenship so attorney general
horne said we don't have to let
the people vote in state level
elections.
The legislature, board of
supervisors, etc.
They're going to create two
voting systems, one where you
vote federal only, Senate
president, congressional races
and you registered using this
federal form, federal races
only.
>> And the federal form and do
not show proof of citizenship.
>> Proof of identification.
>> If you can do the federal
form and show that proof then
you're okay but apparently very
few people do that, just
basically, under threat of
perjury.
>> We were talking in the green
room.
I don't think most of us
remember what I.D. I showed or
not.
So obviously, this is going to
get sued and will face a couple
of lawsuits.
And boy, there's a lot of
dangerous legal water here on
who gets put on certain tracks
and whether it becomes a racial
ethnic thing also.
But it's a challenge that
conservatives want and a lot of
other states wail watch us and
see what we do.
>> Kansas is about ready to
follow suit.
In fact, the secretary Bennett
who asked for the behind that
tom horne delivered this week
is along with the Kansas
secretary of state, they're
already suing the elections
commission saying that federal
form should have proof of
citizenship on there.
Now, the commissions are
nonexistence at the moment so
the lawsuit's not going to go.
>> A dual track voting system a
dual track attack.
>> He had another Arizona legal
battle with the feds on state
powers and what's federal
powers and all those
immigration cases, also.
>> We had tom horne on last
night debating this particular
issue and this is the only way
that you can satisfy the
federal requirement which needs
to be satisfied and a voter
mandate.
Arizona voters demanded that
state registration include that
proof of I.D., proof of
citizenship.
>> It is the only way.
If you're insistent on pushing
forward with what the voters
approved but you can't reject
the federal forms, it comes to
the logical outgrowth and you
saw a lot of conservatives
pushing this as soon as that
Supreme Court ruling came out.
It will be interesting to see
how it works in practice.
Now, you have to create two
ballots, Maricopa county said
this will cost them $250,000
not counting the voter outreach
they're going to have to do to
inform people.
Who knows what it will cost in
other counties.
>> Does this negate all of this
election reform we saw?
The idea was to streamline
things, make it easier, and
now, you've got two ballots?
>> I would think it may not
negate it.
The election reforms may not
happen because there's a
referendum drive.
But certainly you can envision
if you're going to the polls,
there's going to be a lot of
confusion on election day,
which ballot do I get and
you've got to check all these
records.
And I'm not sure if that's -- I
guess that's Bennett's
position, this two track thing
is the only way to satisfy the
voter mandate of prop 200 but
it raises the question of, you
know, fundamental problem here
that we have noncitizens voting
in Arizona.
>> And he will say that if you
cross check people who try to
get out of jury duty and other
things and say they're not
really citizens and you do
that, but again, seven people
have been --
>> I think it's nine.
>> Nine have been prosecuted
for this?
I mean, is this really worth
upending and messing around
with the entire voting system
and again, Arizona in the
headlines.
Two separate voting systems.
>> What do we do with early
ballots?
Do only the certain folks get
early ballots going forward?
There's lots of pitfalls and
yeah people, a lot of people on
the right that believe that
there's more voter fraud that's
out there, the numbers have not
shown that.
>>> Let's talk about the ninth
circuit Court of Appeals here.
S.B. 1070, the injunctions on
S.B. 1070.
You forget what's still hanging
in the balance out there but
apparently, the harboring and
transporting of those who are
undocumented, that was enjoined
and there was a fight to knock
that out but the injunction
continues, correct?
>> And there's another chip
away at 1070.
There's not too much of it
left.
The Supreme Court already
gutted some of the key
provisions.
Now, they uphold the injunction
against the provision that adds
criminal penalties for
harboring or transporting
illegal immigrants.
This could be using for a
family member visiting in your
house.
If you're growing to church,
are you transporting?
The attorney's office said we
wouldn't have to prosecute that
but you can't guarantee in
perpetuity who would and
wouldn't do what.
>> What are we doing?
>> Well, the same court, same
judge that wrote the same
opinion that struck own some of
the other parts of it.
He's a pretty liberal judge.
It's not much of a surprise.
I don't know.
We'll see if the Supreme Court
takes it up.
It doesn't look like it to me
from their previous decisions
on this.
And it's another bite away at
the state trying to enforce
immigration laws.
The one thing, there was a
provision in there that gave
the states some rights to
enforce things.
That's what they need from
these other things and it's not
there in a lot of these federal
laws.
>> What's kind of interesting
is a recent policy change by
the brewer administration seems
to come back to bite them here.
They have recently changed the
policy on driver's licenses for
people to receive deferred
action.
There's a separate court case
going on on that.
More not legally in the country
so we're not going to give them
driver's licenses.
One of the judges wrote well
this would conflict with
federal law then because you
are prosecuting people for
transforming or harboring who
you say is illegally in the
country but who the federal
government says they can stay
and work here.
>> Incomprehensible or
something?
>> They called it vague.
>> Okay.
So there you go.
S.B. 1070 is like, that knight
in the monte python film.
It's not dead yet.
The torsi wants to fight
another day.
Now, the gay hail state
government -- give us a grand
view of this and what
exactly -- who is representing
the Navajo nation right now and
is it true that gilbert has two
folks at the legislature?
>> Technically, the Navajo
nation is being represented by
two state representatives and a
new state senator.
However when he was appointed
to the post this summer
replacing the senator who
resigned to go to Washington,
D.C. for a post in the Obama
administration, there is ample
evidence that he had been a
long time residents of Gilbert,
which is very far from the
Navajo reservation and also
happens to be the home town of
Senate president Andy biggs.
Some people smell a conspiracy
that he was trying to find a
democratic ringer who could
sort of if nothing else spy on
the democratic caucus and at
the very least provide some
support if there were to be a
split vote on leadership in the
state Senate next year.
There were a lot of challenges
to his residency and he was
registered to vote in Gilbert
up until a few days before he
was sworn in.
>> It's a coincidence.
>> It seems relatively clear
here.
However hail is not going to
challenge this in court.
>> This was being challenged --
he said look this guy's a
fraud.
They went through the channels,
we're not going to review this
again.
Attorney general's office took
a pass on prosecuting this
which left it to him to
challenge and according to his
attorney, he doesn't have the
money or the time to do this.
Get involved with this and
perhaps we'll just wait and
challenge him in a democratic
primary next fall.
>> It sounds like he's already
planning on doing that.
>> Okay.
>> Sometimes, that's the better
path to go, let the voters
decide, vote them out, all the
Obamacare stuff, if they want
to get rid of it, get the vote
to do it.
Go in there and let the voters
make the decision.
>> Well, if he does challenge
him, for eight years was a
senator up there, the former
Navajo nation president, well
known up there, a lot of
Democrats, a lot of liberals
are very wary of senator begay
and wonder if he's representing
democratic interests.
It might be a tough fight for
begay.
>> The challenge would have
hinged around at what point
does your residency come into
play?
And he argued that look you
need to be a resident of the
district that you represent at
the time that you're elected.
He was appointed so it was the
same thing and his attorneys
argue that no, he was
appointed, he wasn't elected,
there's a difference.
That's not been resolved and,
you know, it is a bit troubling
that you have evidence that
people don't really live in the
district that they represent,
but the larger question why do
we have districting?
Look at all the money and blood
and treasure we spend on
redistricting.
>> A lot of folks up there,
that's a big area that needs
representation.
>>> Before we go, capitol times
had its name in the news today,
this week.
In quoting or at least quoting
the Facebook postings of a
certain state representative
who compared Barack Obama to
Hitler.
>> She will tell you she wasn't
necessarily comparing him to
Hitler but all common sense and
pretty much -- she was
complaining about national
parks employees keeping people
out of national parks during
the shutdown, she referred to
Obama as der Fuhrer.
Really only associated as the
title that Hitler had when he
was the leader of the Third
Reich.
She repeatedly made various
comparisons to Nazi Germany and
fascist Italy and Cambodia,
kept going back to the Nazi
Germany references.
>> This is Brenda Barton
representing the Payson area I
believe.
>> Second term lawmaker.
>> Okay.
Is this unusual for
representative Barton?
>> She's very outspoken.
Not known for biting her tongue
but this is a pretty outlandish
statement.
>> Do we understand why people
want -- we understand why
certain other folks, agitators,
commentators, talking heads,
talking mouths, whatever they
are on radio, we understand.
But when elected
representatives compare the
President of the United States
to Hitler do we understand why?
>> It's a little different move
because you've folks on the
left compare Arpaio and jan and
rumsfeld to Hitler, but when
it's a lawmaker, it's a
different field of play.
It's on Facebook and we see
these Republican lawmakers get
in trouble on social media a
couple of times now and again,
it's another Arizonian in the
headline.
>> Very quickly, when someone
mentions der Fuhrer, we don't
think of German nomenclature
here.
, we think of Hitler.
>> That was a very specific
title.
She mentioned it's just the
German word for leader.
If I had called him the leader
we wouldn't be having this
conversation.
>> They probably shouldn't be
speaking German.
>> That's an interesting point
that we'll stop on right there.
Thank you all for joining us.
>>> Monday on "Arizona
Horizon," The U.S. Supreme
Court session is officially
underway.
ASU law professor Paul Bender
will look at some of the bigger
cases that the high court is
expected to take on.
That's Monday on "Arizona
Horizon."
Tuesday, journalist turned
author Jana Bommersbach will
talk about her new children's
book.
Wednesday, we'll discuss new
proposed standards for
after-school programs.
Thursday, how will the
government shutdown impact your
tax filings?
And Friday, it's another
edition of the journalists'
roundtable.
That is it for now.
I am ted Simons, thank you so
much for joining us.
You have a great weekend.
>>> "Arizona Horizon" is made
possible by contributions from
the friends of 8, members of
your Arizona PBS station, thank
you.
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