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JAISAL NOOR: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Jaisal Noor in Baltimore.
In Venezuela, protests are continuing as the opposition leader, Leopoldo López, will appear
in court on Wednesday after turning himself in to the National Guard. A Venezuelan court
upheld a public prosecutor's demand for his arrest.
Five people have been killed since the protests began, including four opposition demonstrators
and one government supporter.
Now joining us to discuss this is Steve Ellner. Steve has taught at the Universidad de Oriente
in Puerto La Cruz, Venezuela, since 1977, author or editor of a number of books on Venezuela,
including the forthcoming Latin America's Radical Left. His recent piece: "Venezuela
Right Wing Provokes Violence in Timeworn Practice".
Thank you so much for joining us, Steve.
STEVE ELLNER: Good to be on the program.
NOOR: So, Steve, give us an update of what's happening right now in Venezuela and talk
about this opposition group, Popular Will. And what are its demands? And how legitimate
is it?
ELLNER: Okay. Firstly, I think that the question breaks down into two components. One is peaceful
demonstrations that have been taking place over the last ten days to two weeks in different
cities throughout Venezuela, peaceful but also disruptive, because typically the protesters
take over a main avenue and an urban area and block the traffic, take over two out of
three lanes, and so the traffic backs up and transportation is paralyzed, or virtually
paralyzed, for a period of hours. So that is on one hand.
And on the other, at night time the groups of the demonstrators or new demonstrators
engage in acts of violence. And there has been considerable violence. The targets have
been public buildings, the state TV channel in Caracas. Federal buildings have been targeted.
And so the violence consists of, you know, burning tires and other objects and that kind
of thing, throwing stones, and in some cases shooting.
So with regard to your question with regard to Leopoldo López and his organization, that
also breaks down into two components, because on one hand, López is really calling for
regime change. That's what we call it in the States. His slogan in Spanish is "Salida".
Salida means removal. And he's calling for the removal of the president, but not just
the president. He's really calling for a change of government.
On the other hand, other sectors of the opposition--a little bit cautious of that all-encompassing
demand. And the standard-bearer of the opposition alliance, the MUD, Henrique Capriles, who's
the governor of the state of Miranda, is really calling for a refocus. His position is that
the demonstrations should focus on specific demands and specific issues.
The rector of the Catholic university, which has been very critical of the Chávez government
all along, but the new rector--his name is José Virtuoso--has criticized this demand
of the removal of Maduro, Nicolás Maduro, from power and has stated that these kinds
of demonstrations are not going to lead to a change of government. And the implication
is that the protesters should focus on specific demands and not regime change.
NOOR: And just who is Leopoldo López? And whose interests does he represent?
ELLNER: Okay. López is one of the main opposition leaders. In 2012, the opposition held internal
elections to choose their candidate against Chávez for the elections that took place
in October, and López was one of six or seven precandidates. He ran in those internal elections
and got a very small percentage of the vote. And he ended up throwing his support behind
Capriles.
So in terms of electoral support, López really doesn't have much to go by. But he's become
sort of a hero because of his calling for the removal of Maduro. It's a very kind of
dramatic position. And now he just recently--yesterdy he turned himself in to the government and
he's in jail. So he has really been thrusted on the center stage, and that's helped him
politically.
But nevertheless, like I said before, the opposition leadership is divided and the opposition,
the rank and file of the opposition, is also divided as to whether this call for regime
change is really appropriate.
NOOR: And, you know, you just talked about how the opposition is fractured. And by Venezuelan
standards, the protests have been small, 'cause under Chávez you saw opposition protests
with as many as a million people taking the streets.
There is a protest coming up on Saturday. What can we expect? And is Maduro's regime
challenged? Does it feel threatened right now?
ELLNER: Right. Firstly, with regard to the size of the protests, it is true that they
don't compare to the protests that took place prior to Chávez's overthrow. And the--you
know, in Spanish it's called poder de convocatoria, the ability of the government to mobilize
the people in vast numbers, which the government has retained throughout the whole--these fifteen
years the government has been able to call for massive demonstrations. The opposition
did at the time of the coup and at the time of the general strike, which took place a
few months after, seven or eight months after that.
But between then and now, the opposition's ability to get people on the streets has not
been as great. That has picked up in the last year. During the presidential elections, Capriles
was able to mobilize the people so that [snip] think that we're in a situation now of vast
mobilization on both sides. Yesterday, the opposition mobilized in the eastern part of
Caracas, which is the middle class, upper middle class area of Caracas, and the Chavista
workers, the oil workers federation, called a rally, a march and a rally in favor of the
Maduro government, and that was also pretty massive, so that both sides are now able to
count on drawing a lot of people onto the streets.
But I must add that one of the distinguishing characteristics of these mobilizations all
along, going back to the beginning of the Chávez period, is the fact that the opposition
mobilizes in the middle and upper middle class areas. For instance, in Caracas, the eastern
part of Caracas is middle and upper middle class, and that's where the opposition demonstrations
are taking place, whereas the popular sectors of the population live in the western part
of Caracas, and they have a marked presence in the downtown area of Caracas. So that's
where the Chavistas, the Chavista concentrations are located. This march yesterday was, you
know, in the western part of Caracas, and it ended up in the downtown section.
So there is a class bifurcation, and I think that as long as that continues, the ability
of the opposition to bring about this regime change will be rather limiting.
NOOR: And, finally, we're almost out of time. But what has been the U.S.'s role in this?
We know they have worked to destabilize Venezuela in the past. They've funded opposition groups.
And what impact is it having on the ground in Venezuela?
ELLNER: Yes. There has been some documentation of NGO money that has been funneled into opposition
groups. And the Maduro government and the Chávez government before that are very sensitive
to that issue, especially given the U.S. record of regime change throughout the world, both
historically and currently in the case of Syria and other countries.
So several U.S. diplomats have been expelled on several different occasions. About four
or five months ago, there were three diplomats--I think three diplomats who were expelled, and
one of them had traveled to areas to meet with the opposition. She went to the state
of Bolívar, and she met with a group, Súmate, which is a group that María Corina Machado,
one of the more radical opposition leaders, was the vice president of. So this U.S. diplomat
met with Súmate. And then she went to the state of Amazonas, which is controlled by
the opposition. The governor is a member of the opposition. It's one of the few states
that the opposition controls. And she had meetings there. So that was, you know, raised
by the Maduro government, and she was one of the people who was expelled.
Now, just a few days ago, Maduro expelled three more U.S. diplomats, claiming that there
was also interference, that they were meeting with people in the opposition.
I would say that the government will have to demonstrate this with facts. But the fact
of the matter is that the United States has sided with the opposition openly. For instance,
with regard to López, the Obama administration expressed its concern for López prior to
his arrest, and all the statements from the White House has been in support of the protesters.
But the fact of the matter is that there has been considerable violence. And the fact of
the matter is that the Chavistas are also on the streets. And so the U.S. position is
practically explicitly siding with the opposition. And I think that has become an issue here
in Venezuela in the last couple of days.
NOOR: Okay, Steve, we're going to have to hold it there, but we'll certainly keep following
this story. Thank you so much for joining us.
ELLNER: Thank you for having me on this program.
NOOR: You can follow us @therealnews on Twitter. Tweet me questions and comments @jaisalnoor.
Check out all our coverage of the ongoing crisis and protests in Venezuela at TheRealNews.com.
Thank you so much for joining us.