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JANSING: Well, on the heels of the story that ended the career of one general, Rolling Stone
magazine now has explosive new allegations against another.
A lieutenant colonel, the head of information operations at Camp Eggers in Kabul said a
three-star general tried to get psychological operations experts to use their skills not
on the enemy but on U.S. Senators who were going to make decisions about more money and
more troops for Afghanistan.
Among them, John McCain, Joe Lieberman, Al Franken, Carl Levin and our next guest. I`m
joined by Senator Jack Reed, Democrat from Rhode Island, and a Senior Member of the Armed
Services Committee.
Senator, good morning. Thank you for being with us.
REED: Good morning.
JANSING: Lieutenant Colonel Michael Holmes told Rolling Stone he was pressured to use
psychological tricks and propaganda on delegations like yours, traveling dignitaries, even the
chairman of the joint chiefs, Admiral Mullen.
What`s your reaction?
REED: Well, a charge of this nature are very serious and disturbing. And they have to be
fully investigated.
I assume the Department of Defense particularly, when the chairman of the joint chief`s absence
(ph) will take it seriously, conduct a thorough investigation and determine if there is any
appropriate action that`s necessary.
From my standpoint, I`ve been to Afghanistan 11 times, talked to countless generals and
privates and diplomats and members of our aides and state department.
So I try to get a broad view and not to put too much stake at any one position while I
travel.
JANSING: There are other allegations in this. I mean, besides what are, I guess, the traditional
psy-ops that are supposed to, according to Defense Department`s own guidelines, only
be used on hostile foreigners.
They apparently were told to put together and did put together, according to this article,
dossiers (ph) on people like you, about how you voted, about sort of where your sweet
spots are.
That propaganda people were in the room when you were having official meetings, that they
were not identified as such.
Did you ever have any indication that there was someone there or something going on --
anything that would have said to you, this is out of the ordinary, given your vast experience?
REED: Given the fact that I`ve been there numerous times, talked to several different
officers that had the same job, had a standard of comparison that -- I was there to ask questions,
to get answers, to evaluate the answers, to ask similar questions to other people with
different points of view, and having grown up as a young army officer in the Vietnam
era, I have, I think an instinctual sort of notion that you have to look very carefully
and weigh very carefully what anyone says, not suggesting, in any impropriety.
It`s just that there are people in institutional states, people who try to advance their own
position. You have to recognize that and understand that. So I didn`t feel anything unusual going
on.
And I think that as a result simply of trying to cast a vast net, talk to lots of people,
not just in Kabul but to go out on the ground, to talk to young battalion and company commanders,
squad leaders, to get their impressions, not only American forces but also through interpreters
of Afghani forces.
JANSING: If this wasn`t being (ph) done, what does it tell you?
I mean, there was one assessment which shows how desperate the military leaders on the
ground there are, to get more help for a war that they think is vast losing the support
of the American people.
REED: Well, I believe there was a significant strategic mistake when we took our attention
off Afghanistan and went to Iraq.
That`s why I posed the Iraq operation -- one of 22 Senators to do that. And I think
in the intervening years, we`ve lost a lot of ground.
And right now, we`re in a situation of trying to help that country stabilize principally
because along the Afghani/Pakistani border, there are international terrorists that continue
to plot attacks against the United States, against our allies, across the globe.
And we cannot ignore these threats.
JANSING: But would you interpret something like this as a sign of desperation?
REED: I don`t think it`s a sign of desperation. I think, first of all, it has to be clearly,
I think, evaluated as to what went on. What was the intent? Were there any regulations
violated?
If there was, there has to be suitable punishment for violations. But I think what we`re trying
to achieve and I think the President stated this very clearly is the beginning of withdrawal
of our forces -- American forces this summer.
And then to have a situation where we turn that over to Afghani military forces and one
of the major pillars in the strategy is building up adequate Afghani forces.
So this has to be, I think, viewed in a larger context of beginning to apply the same strategy
that we did in Iraq, which is shifting the burden to the local forces, getting our forces
out of that country as quickly as possible.
And that, I think, is the overall strategy.
JANSING: Let me ask you about Libya if I can.
REED: Sure.
JANSING: .on Moammar Gadhafi. He was just on television via telephone blaming Osama
Bin Laden and Al Qaeda for what`s going on there. And you heard the President yesterday.
He said he`s prepared to use a full range of options. But he never mentioned Gadhafi
by name and did not say specifically whether there would be sanctions, what else the United
States might do.
As you see the situation unfolding there, what can and should the U.S. role be right
now?
REED: Well, we have to join international community to make it clear that the Gadhafi
government cannot use this indiscriminate violence against its own people.
And in fact, that there has to be a transition from the Gadhafi family rule.
JANSING: But how do you do that? How do you send that message because we`ve been hearing
it from the United Nations? We heard it yesterday from the President.
Hillary Clinton`s been saying it.
REED: Well, you have begin to think seriously and consider seriously sanctions against the
government of Libya. You have to, convene, I think, a security council.
A security council of the United nations has to start taking very dramatic steps. You have
to make it clear that international justice will be applied to any of these violations
that are being perpetrated against the people of Libya.
They have to start taking much more tangible steps than they`ve taken so far. And I think
it begins, frankly, at the United Nations Security Council.
JANSING: Senator Jack Reed, a Democrat from Rhode Island, thank you so much for your time
here.
REED: Thank you very much, Chris.