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Danila Galperovich: Hello, dear viewers.
My name is Danila Galperovich,
and I am a Radio Liberty analyst, correspondent, and presenter.
Our guest in this Territory today is a member
of the Civil Society Institutions Development Council under the President of Russia,
Mara Fyodorovna Polyakova. Hello.
Mara Polyakova: …and Human Rights.
Danila Galperovich: …and human rights,
which we are probably going to discuss more than anything else today,
because the events that concern Yukos,
its former top managers, and in general uttering the company’s name –
that is what has happened in Strasbourg.
A short while ago, a case that many in Moscow, I think,
had been awaiting with certain nervousness
was considered there on its merits.
It will take a while for a decision to be made.
How important is the consideration of the Yukos vs. Russia case for Russia?
How important is it for Russian society?
Will it be a precedent, will it be something
that may turn something inside the Russian judicial system?
Mara Polyakova: I believe that this decision will be very important.
Any decision is in fact a source of law,
although, according to the official doctrine,
decisions of Russian courts are not precedents,
but decisions of the European Court are mandatory for any court.
Therefore, those principles, approaches, and standards
that will be present in the decision on this case
must become the basis for making decisions on any other cases
that will emerge in similar situations.
If the European Court rules in favor of Yukos,
then Yukos will have the right to take its case to court
due to newly discovered circumstances.
Danila Galperovich: Put succinctly, after the recent decision of the Constitutional Court,
a decision of the European Court of Human Rights makes
it possible to review cases in Russia. Is that right?
Mara Polyakova: Actually, competent lawyers saw
that as true as of the moment we joined the Convention.
Danila Galperovich: Were the judges of the Constitutional Court realizing,
when they were making such a decision,
that it has this facet?
Were they realizing, now that the Khodorkovsky-Lebedev trial
is going on at the Khamovniki Court
and the Yukos hearing at Strasbourg,
that this opens a gate to turn everything happening with Yukos around?
Mara Polyakova: I think that the Constitutional Court judges could not but realize that.
Danila Galperovich: If the European Court,
even without granting the compensation in the entire amount
that is claimed by the plaintiffs, nonetheless, finds that
Russia has committed numerous violations,
what may be the consequences, step by step?
Mara Polyakova: Any state, if its violation of law is recognized,
must make restitution.
The same in this case, if the European Court says
that law was violated,
our state must take all measures to make restitution.
Such and such damage was caused,
which means that it must be repaired.
Danila Galperovich: I am trying to imagine that:
Khodorkovsky and Lebedev are set free…
Mara Polyakova: I do not rule out that a decision
favorable for Khodorkovsky and Lebedev will be made,
because I do not rule out that the right
to fair trial has been violated, judging, first of all,
by what I have read in the press.
Then also, my students have attended the hearings.
Danila Galperovich: Let us make a footnote about your students,
because this is very interesting.
Mara Polyakova: I teach students at the National Oil and Gas University,
and my students are very interested in this trial,
because they will work in the industry
once represented by Lebedev and Khodorkovsky.
My subject is Criminal Procedure;
it is important to know criminal procedure
to be prepared for possible arbitrariness.
Danila Galperovich: I think that some of that preparedness
will come from the fact that they attend the trial.
What do they tell you afterward?
Mara Polyakova: As my students are in the third year,
they still have an idealized view of the judicial system and trials.
They come back in a state of commotion, very surprised,
and tell me that they have seen very many violations
of the rights of the defendants
and tell me about procedural violations.
I hear from my students that violations take place there,
that the prosecution’s case is falling to pieces,
and, in general, that the picture of what is happening
in the courtroom is fairly sad.
They do not want to go to work for a court
or the prosecutor’s office, or any law-enforcement agencies.
Having looked at what is happening in that court,
they understand that they will be forced to act in a way
that does not coincide with their idea of how they must act.
Danila Galperovich: As a member of the Civil Society
and Human Rights Development Council,
you somehow observe how the judicial
and the prosecutorial communities react to the Yukos Affair
and to Strasbourg in general? Is there any attention to it?
Mara Polyakova: Currently, we are concerned
that judges on the whole are dependent.
We carry out research on the nationwide scale.
Various cases come for our expert assessment.
Our expert council has produced conclusions
on the Khodorkovsky case as well.
Danila Galperovich: Is it possible to say that the Russian government
feels nervous about what is happening in Strasbourg
and at the Khamovniki Court?
Are you observing any such reactions?
Mara Polyakova: It is hard for me to speak about such reactions,
but I can say that I have lately begun to feel
that there is a chance that the situation may change.
There will be changes in the Interior Ministry system.
I believe that the key problem
that prevents the Interior Ministry from operating normally
is the criteria of evaluating their operation.
An encouraging presidential edict came out in January,
with a direct instruction to prepare new evaluation criteria.
We have gathered a team of researchers
who are dealing with this particular problem.
We show why they lead to such dismal results
and what needs to be changed.
We have held a roundtable discussion where we demonstrated
how police work is evaluated in the West,
how, for example, they take into account the opinion
of the general public.
Danila Galperovich: And is it at all possible
to implement the methods of assessing police efficiency
that exist in the West and public opinion involvement
with such a level of civil society in Russia,
with such a level of atomization and fragmentation?
Mara Polyakova: I may be a hopeless optimist:
I believe that we need to begin doing this anyway.
When trial by jury was being introduced,
there was talk that our people were far from prepared for that.
Nonetheless, there is nothing better than trial by jury
in the Russian judicial system that I can imagine.
End of first part