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>> female announcer: This is a
production of WKNO, Memphis.
Production funding for "Behind
the Headlines" is made possible
in part by..
An interview with the man
charged with fixing the state's
failing schools tonight on
"Behind the Headlines."
[instrumental music]
♪♪♪
>> Barnes: I'm Eric Barnes,
publisher of The Memphis Daily
News.
Thanks for joining us.
We're joined tonight by Eleanor
Boudreau, correspondent with
WKNO-FM radio.
Chris Barbic, superintendant of
the Achievement School District.
Thank you for being here.
>> Barbic: Thanks for having me.
>> Barnes: And Bill Dries,
reporter with The Memphis Daily
News.
Thanks for being here.
You are superintendant of the
Achievement School District
which I would define but I'm
going to give you a chance to
define it better than I do.
But the state's effort, the new
effort that came in with
Governor Haslam to take care of
failing schools across the
state.
A big number of those-what?
Some 68 out of 85 are in
Memphis.
Tell me though.
What is an Achievement School
District and what's your role
with that?
>> Barbic: Sure-So, the
Achievement School District
really came out of the Race to
the Top application which
actually predated Governor
Haslam.
That was done under the Bredesen
administration.
It was the state's application
to do lots of education reform
statewide.
And one of the things that was
in the application that
Tennessee won and got a $500
million federal grant to
implement was what do we do
about those just persistently
struggling schools-the schools
that year after year, we're
seeing just bismal academic
performance.
We define that as the bottom
five percent of the schools in
the state.
That's 85 campuses statewide.
And the majority of the schools,
like you mentioned, 68 of the 85
schools are here in Memphis.
>> Barnes: And you've, I think,
took the job a year ago.
Is that about right?
>> Barbic: I've been here 18
months.
>> Barnes: 18 months and you
have started with which schools
and how many schools in Memphis?
And give us a sense of the
expansion plans.
And we'll talk about some of the
specific successes and so on so
far.
>> Barbic: Sure-So, we spent the
first year just really, you
know, getting a team together,
getting a plan together.
And we're in the middle of our
first year of actually operating
schools.
So, we have six schools in the
achievement school district.
Five of those schools are here
in Memphis.
And we have one school in
Nashville.
Of the six and part of what we
can do, we can either run the
school ourselves and become
basically the district for that
school or we have the ability to
authorize charter schools.
And so of the six, three of the
schools were schools that we're
running.
All three of those schools are
in Frayser.
They're in the Frayser High
School feeder pattern.
So, two elementary schools-
Corning Elementary and Frayser
Elementary and then West Side
Middle.
So, the two elementary schools
that feed in to West Side are
the three schools that we're
running.
And then, we've also authorized
three charter schools, two
charters here in Memphis and one
charter school in Nashville.
And the two charters, one is
Cornerstone Prep which is
running in Lester Elementary
serving grades pre-k through
three.
And then we started Gordon
Science and Arts Academy with
Gestalt Community Schools which
runs a couple of schools here in
Memphis.
And they're serving the middle
school students that's owned to
Humes Middle School but doing
right now on the Gordon
Elementary School campus.
>> Barnes: And we'll come back
to Humes and Gordon in a second.
You'll add how many schools next
year?
>> Barbic: Next year we plan to
add ten schools, two that we'll
run ourselves.
So, two more in Frayser.
And then, we'll have eight
charter schools operating next
year.
And all ten of those schools
will be here in Memphis.
>> Barnes: And at what point
would you have the full 68 truly
within your umbrella?
>> Barbic: Well, we've projected
out about another year.
And we did this plan when I
first got here.
So, we'll spend some time this
summer kind of revamping and
relooking at that.
But our goal in 14-15 would be
to ramp up to about 35 schools.
And we expect, you know, 80 to
85 percent of those schools to
be here in Memphis since that's
where the majority of the
schools are.
>> Barnes: Bill?
>> Dries: Let's talk about
Gordon for a second because
you're looking at moving Gordon
out of the school where you
coexist with the conventional
elementary school at to Humes
Middle School.
And the city-the county-wide
school board has approved an
optional school for Humes Middle
School.
So, how are those talks going?
Are you at cross-purposes or are
we looking at a building that's
big enough for both of these
institutions.
>> Barbic: So, we think we are
looking at a building that
allows us to do both so that
this can be, you know, not an
either-or but a both-and.
And just a little history-so,
you know, we approved and
authorized Gestalt to run a
school in the Humes neighborhood
last year.
You know, this was, you know,
after there were already plans
and talks to do something with
Humes.
And we wanted to, you know, try
and develop a good working
relationship, you know, with
Doctor Cash because, you know,
at this point, you know, he was
still here.
And, you know, talked about
Gordon and the thought was that
eventually, you know, that was
one of the schools in the
district was looking to
potentially close.
And so, the idea would be, you
know, they would start at Gordon
next year and there would be
room for them to expand.
The challenges that Gordon
Elementary School is not an ASD
eligible school.
So, we don't have any control
over what the district does with
that school.
So, if you remember earlier this
year, they announced they were
going to close the school
because of the ASD.
And we just wanted to be clear
that, you know, anything that
the district did around Gordon
Elementary School was a district
decision because it's not a
bottom five percent school.
And if they chose to close it,
that was their decision.
And when they chose not to and
then put something in Humes,
they kind of left.
There was no where for the
middle school neighborhood kids
to go.
They couldn't expand at Gordon
because there wasn't enough room
for them to go there.
And if they turned the whole
building of Humes in to a
performing arts school, you
would have to bus the kids, the
middle school students that
lived in another neighborhood,
to another building.
So, that's when we went back and
said, "Look, you know, we can't.
"You know, we've got to have a
place for these guys to go to
school."
So, you know, Humes has capacity
for anywhere from 11 to 1300
kids.
We feel like there's room to put
the Gordon program back in Humes
to serve the 450, 500 kids that
would potentially be in that
middle school program from that
attendance zone and also have
plenty of space for the
performing arts school.
So, I think we're pretty close
to having that done.
We had a good conversation last
week.
I have a meeting actually this
afternoon with superintendant
Hopson and some of the folks on
the administration there.
>> Dries: Is there a-Could this
be a legal test of the ASD's
authority?
Because I think-Dorsey Hopson is
the former general council, of
course, for the school system.
And he said, "If push comes to
shove here, I think we can make
an argument that we can close it
and reopen it as an optional
school."
I think you've expressed kind of
a different opinion that the ASD
can do this, can take Humes if
they want to.
>> Barbic: I'm hoping it doesn't
come to that but if it does, I
mean, we're pretty confident
that, you know, the way a law
reads is we were essentially
serving the Humes students
before that school was closed.
And even if the school is
closed, the schools stay put
until the list gets rerun every
three years.
And this is-and I'm not
suggesting this is what the
district is doing but, I mean,
we can see a situation where
districts decide to close
schools or, you know, change
grade configurations or change
attendance boundaries as ways to
get around, you know, being
taken in to the ASD.
And we don't-So, we wanted to
make sure the law was very clear
that there was no way for those
sorts of things to happen.
And again, not suggesting that's
what MCS is doing but
hypothetically, you could see
superintendants in districts who
may want to do those things.
So, what we're saying is when
the list came out, Humes was on
the list.
And until that list is rerun, we
have a legal authority to serve
the kids that go to that school
and to do it with the Humes
facility.
>> Barnes: Is that-Would that
specific school and that
specific, you know, disagreement
or difference of perception-
however you want to put it-with
the school system, is that
typical of your interactions
with the school system or is
that the one example of a
difference of opinion.
I mean, how is it with all of
them?
>> Barbic: That's a great
question.
I think overall, it's gone very
well.
I mean, if you would have asked
me when I started, I was
expecting a pretty
confrontational relationship.
And I think that, you know,
everybody in the district, MCS,
you know, the folks that were
starting to get to work with
non-Shelby County have handled
themselves incredibly
professionally.
It sounds cliché but really
tried to put, you know, the
students interests first.
And that doesn't mean there
haven't been times when we've
disagreed and butted heads.
But it's been a little bit of an
arranged marriage so to speak.
And when those things happen, we
sit down and we work them out.
>> Barnes: Because to some
extent, to put it, you know,
maybe callously, it's basically
the state saying, "You guys,
MCS, couldn't fix this, couldn't
serve these students well,
weren't spending the money
wisely.
"We're going to hand it to
Mister Barbic here."
>> Barbic: Well, I think it's a
situation where, you know, these
are-
We're six months in to this
work.
This is tough work, you know.
And I think that, you know, we
recognize how hard it is.
And I like to think of it more
as we're bringing some more
resources and people to the
table.
And if we can work together to
bring the schools to a place
where we all want them to be-You
know, let's not spend our time
bickering.
Let's spend our time sitting
down and figuring out how we can
work together.
I mean, let's face it.
There's $168 million shortfall
on the budget.
If we can, you know, bring
resources together and work
together and allocate resources
in the most strategic manner
possible to serve all the
schools, that doesn't just help.
That helps the district.
That helps the new merged
system.
And I think there's a place for
all of us at the table to do
that.
>> Boudreau: Yeah, a lot of your
strategy seems to be extend the
school day by, you know, an hour
and a half and then have this
incredibly intensive hiring
process that emphasizes just how
hard this work is going to be
with the teacher that you're
thinking about hiring.
And I'm wondering how many of
those lessons do you think can
be applied to the Memphis City
School district or what will
become the merged, you know,
Shelby County School District
because it takes a lot to extend
the school day and ask everybody
to work extra hours.
>> Barbic: I think it's way too
early to say we have any lessons
learned that can be applied
anywhere because we're still
pretty early in.
And you know, we're approaching
this with, you know, the right
degree of humility until we
actually get some results.
So, I think you're right.
This is tough work.
It's hard work.
And I think, you know, can
someone spend their entire
career in a turn around
environment?
I think there's some people that
could.
But, you know, this is intense
work.
I mean, it would be like asking
a doctor to spend their whole
career in the ER.
I mean, that's just an intense
day in, day out work.
And I'm not sure every doctor
wants to spend their whole
career in the ER.
I mean, this is a situation
where, you know, maybe you have
somebody coming in for five,
six, seven years.
And this is the kind of work
that they want to do.
But I think it's too early to
say, you know, long term
sustainability and an
environment like this, if that's
A-possible or even should be
possible.
And I think as we get further in
to this and see, you know, the
kind of sustainability that
folks coming in to this work can
manage over time, then I'll
think we'll learn a lot more.
But you know, especially this
time of year.
I mean, February is the longest-
shortest month of the school
year.
I mean, it's just a tough, tough
time of year.
And you know, I would be lying
to you if I didn't tell you our
folks weren't feeling that.
But I mean, we've got, you know-
I'm in the schools on a weekly
basis.
We have incredible people day
in, day out who are just rolling
their sleeves and doing really
challenging work.
And you know, we're out right
now trying to recruit another
group to come in and serve the
two more schools that we're
going to be working in next
year.
>> Boudreau: I guess I've met a
lot of your teachers.
And every time, you know, I
interact with your schools or
your teachers, I am struck by
how, guess, intense these
people are but you know, and
again, the extra hours.
When you're looking at ramping
that up, where are all these
hires going to come from if you
go from, you know, six schools
this year to 35, even more down
the road?
>> Barbic: I think that's a
great question.
I think, you know, short term,
we have to try and incentivize
folks that are already here to
want to work in schools where
kids need the most.
So really try and define the
best and brightest people here
in Memphis or in the region who
want to roll up their sleeves
and do this work.
I think longer term, we have to
do two things.
One-We've got to really try and
develop pipelines of teachers,
you know, alternative pipelines.
So, really tapping in to the
ones that are already there but
figuring out how we, you know,
bring in different types of
teacher training programs that
are maybe more specific to
turnaround work.
We're talking to a group right
now called Relay Graduate School
of Education which works in a
couple regions around the
country to possibly come to
Tennessee and help us with this
work.
And then I think we've got to
recruit.
We've got to import some folks.
I mean, we've got to, you know,
really make Memphis sort of seen
as teacher town, you know, and a
place where, you know, teachers
want to come and live and work.
And you know, there's a brand
new campaign, recruitment
campaign that we're working with
some folks around the city.
It's called Teach 901.
They have a website where we're
trying to really, you know,
brand Memphis as teacher town.
This is a place where, you know,
in the 70, 80, 90 thousand
dollar salary which is what
we're paying our best teachers
or will be paying our best
teachers.
That's a pretty good income in
Memphis with what the cost of
living is here.
I mean, something just came out
a week ago that said third best
cost of living in the country.
And so, we want to really try to
attract people from other places
to want to come here and work.
>> Barnes: Logistically, how
does that work?
Just so people understand.
You go in.
You take over a school.
There are teachers in their
existing.
You are under no pressure to
continue to use those teachers?
You can turn over the entire
staff if you want?
>> Barbic: Yeah, so, the way
that relationship works-We say,
"Look, we're a different
employer.
"So, we're not MCS.
"And so, you can certainly apply
for a position with a position
with us if you want to come work
with us."
It would be like, you know, a
teacher moving from MCS to
Shelby County.
You know, they go through an
application process.
They have the ability to choose
that.
And than, we have the freedom to
make the decisions around how
many of those teachers we keep.
>> Barnes: Roughly, what
percentage of teachers do you
end up keeping or either apply,
reapply and are accepted in to
the ASD environment?
>> Barbic: So, this last year
for the three current schools
that we're running right now
because the charters again, they
have their own processes.
But for the three schools that
we're running, we had roughly, I
think, 80 percent of the
teachers choose not to apply.
So, only about 20 percent of the
teachers applied for a position.
And that's what we said.
Look, we can't offer somebody a
job that doesn't apply with us.
And then of that 20 percent, we
actually made job offers to
about three quarters of those
teachers.
>> Barnes: And the other thing
when we talk about teachers and
hiring them, for some people,
this is, you know, good thing.
Some-it's a bad thing.
I just am curious-unions.
I mean, are the teachers who
work for the ASD unionized?
>> Barbic: No. And you know,
really with a lot of the changes
that have happened, you know, in
the last couple of years through
legislation.
I mean, there's no collective
bargaining.
Tenders been reformed.
You know, I think the influence
in power of teachers unions, not
just in the achievement school
district, but across the state,
is really a lot less than it was
three, four five years ago.
>> Dries: Chris, you've had
several meetings.
I think you've got one this
weekend with the parents over at
Cornerstone which used to be
Lester in Binghampton.
How are things going over there?
Because that relationship kind
of got off to a rough start with
the charter operator.
>> Barbic: I think we've turned
the page.
The hearing this weekends being
done by GA Hardaway.
And I think Doctor Herington's
going to be there as well.
So, they called the meeting.
You know, I'm going to be there
as a member of the audience, you
know, curious listening.
You know, making sure that there
isn't any new feedback.
I mean, nothings changed in
terms of, you know, there's no
new allegations.
So, you know, this will be the
third meeting we've had.
I think this meeting, you know,
I hope it's a productive one.
Again, there's nothing new to
report or new to talk about.
So, you know, it's another
opportunity for folks to, I
guess, discuss their concerns.
And if there's any new ones,
then we'll follow up on those.
I think, you know, what really
changed the conversation was the
parents who are at Cornerstone
are really starting to speak up
and say, "Look, we're happy."
You know, we've got a lot of
parents, the majority of the
parents at the school are happy.
And a lot of the folks that
we're, you know, had concerns
about this school weren't
parents of kids.
It was folks in the community.
Some of them didn't even live.
They sent their kids to private
schools.
So, when you really start to sit
down and talk to parents in the
school, that's our stake holder.
That's our customer.
And we certainly don't want to
ignore, you know, the concerns
of folks in the community.
And Lisa, in her article, we
said, "Look, could we have done
a better job in how we entered
the community of Binghampton?
Absolutely."
And there's lessons that, you
know, have been learned and will
be applied moving forward.
But I really hope now the
conversation moves towards how
can we work together.
How can we make this a solution-
oriented conversation and not
just be another repeat of the
things that have already
happened because I feel like
we've heard that.
You know, I've had, you know, a
dozen meetings with folks in the
community since that initial
meeting in December.
And hope we can start to focus
on solutions now.
>> Dries: The competition that's
happened in the first school
year of this operation.
I know you and Doctor Cash had
talked about some of the give
and take in that.
And my sense in talking with him
is that it was a friendly
competition but it was also a
pretty spirited competition
because you are competing for
some of the same teachers who
obviously are head and shoulders
above what you might see in most
of the applicants there.
So, has the competitive element
of this been more intense or
less intense than you thought it
was going to be?
>> Barbic: I think it's been
appropriate.
I mean, look.
I really developed a-I really
enjoyed working with Doctor
Cash.
And you know, I know folks
around the city have varying
opinions.
We had a great relationship.
You know, I consider him a
friend.
You know, I sent him several
notes after, you know, his
decision to step down and just
wished him the best.
So, I think, you know, Memphis
was lucky to have him.
I think a lot of good work was
done in his administration.
And I enjoyed working with him.
You know, we're developing a
really good working relationship
with John and with Dorsey.
And so, I think, you know, it's
been cooper-a-tition or
frenemies or however you want to
say it.
But I think it's been an
appropriate level.
And like I said before, I think
everyone's handled themselves in
a really professional way under
some pretty unique and sometimes
difficult circumstances.
>> Barnes: I want to go ahead
and note that that's the first
time someone has said frenemies.
Along those lines of charter
schools.
People had various opinions
about charter schools but that's
going to be a big part of how
you expand.
Some schools you take over.
How? What is the advantage of
charters?
Is that a solution?
Some people point to charter
schools and say, "That's the
future of not just low
performing schools, but all
public schools."
You come from a background of
some very successful charter
schools in Houston that were
serving really underserved kids
and kids who weren't going to
college and suddenly were.
What role does charter-do
charters have going forward?
>> Barbic: So, I don't think
it's the answer.
I think it's part of the answer.
I think, you know, when I hope
we can shift the conversation as
a community and really as a
state and as a country, if you
will, is less about governments
and what type of school it is
and really about quality.
So, I mean, if you talk to
parents, they could care less
what the governance is for their
school.
What they care about is is there
a good teacher in the classroom,
is the principal accessible, and
is this a good school.
And they could care less whether
it's a charter school or a
traditional public school or a
private school.
And I think as a community, we
need to be focused on is this a
good school or not and is this a
quality school.
And if it's quality, we need
more of that.
If it's not, we need less of it
and really get less hung up on
what type of school it is.
I think there's a place for
quality charters.
Look, there's great traditional
public schools in Memphis and in
Shelby County.
And you know, we need to give
the principals in those schools
the autonomy.
And there's great private
schools serving low income kids.
And if there's a way for those
schools to grow, as well, too.
And I think as a city and as a
state, we need to be thinking
about how we replicate and
increase success and how we
figure out how to turn around
and replace low performing
schools,
And I think charters are a part
of that.
>> Boudreau: So, the incredibly
ambitious goal of your district
is to take schools that are
among the bottom five percent,
move them to the top 25 percent
in the next five years.
And that's a somewhat unique,
you know, formulation to your
district here in Tennessee.
So, what happens, you know, five
years down the line f you don't
make that goal?
Do you pack up and leave?
Do you say it's a success if the
test scores go up?
Do you change everything you're
doing?
>> Barbic: That's a good
question.
So, I give you kind of what the
law says happens and then kind
of how we're interpreting and
trying to implement that.
So, at the end of five years for
the schools that we're running-
Well, one of three things
happens.
And this is regardless of
whether it's successful or not
and then we'll talk about, you
know, hopefully the success.
One is we give the school back
to the district.
We say, "Look, we've had it for
five years."
And the ASD was never.
And the intention was never for
us to run the schools
permanently.
It was five years.
We can either give the school
back.
Secondly, there's a parent
trigger law that says if 60
percent of the parents would
like to keep the school in the
Achievement School District,
that can happen.
So, we'll honor that parent, you
know, voice and request.
And the school could stay in the
ASD, if the parents want.
Third is we could actually
convert the school to a charter
school in that five year period.
And even if the schools a
charter school, whether its one
that we would potentially
convert or the ones that we're
authorizing, you know, right
from the beginning like the two
I mentioned earlier, that's
still only a ten year charter.
And at the end of the ten years,
the authorizing responsibility
shifts back to local control.
So, in every scenario, the
intent and goal is that this
goes back to local control.
You know, we hope that our
schools are successful within
that five years.
The list of priority schools
gets rerun every three.
And our hope is that for the
schools that we're in right now,
five years later those schools
are in the top 25 percent in
five years.
You know, we'll be monitoring
those schools every, you know.
We do school quality reviews
every year.
We're looking at results.
And if it looks like things
aren't going, you know, the way
we want, then we can replace the
operator.
We can replace a charter with a
different charter.
We can replace ourselves with a
charter.
And so, the whole point like I
said is to be focused on quality
and not type of school.
You know, we think that we're
moving the schools in the right
direction that they're going to
get where they need to go.
If they're not, then we'll
replace the operators.
So, we're all under, you know.
>> Barnes: You don't get tenure?
>> Barbic: I don't.
>> Barnes: You mentioned private
schools.
And we have just four minutes
left in the show.
So, we'll run through a couple
of things.
There's a voucher bill,
opportunity scholarship,
whatever you want to call it.
But basically, a voucher that
would go to, as it's framed
right now, bill that would give
lower income folks, people in
the bottom five percent schools
maybe, a voucher to go to
private schools.
Are you directly involved with
the voucher program at all?
>> Barbic: I'm not.
I mean, the vouchers directed at
kids that are in ASD eligible
schools.
But we wouldn't be managing that
program.
We'd have no affiliation.
It would just be an option if
it's passed for those parents to
opt in to one of those schools.
>> Barnes: You also mentioned
the salaries and the money and
bringing more resources to the
problem.
How does the money flow if we
can say?
You know, I pay property taxes
in the city of Memphis or the,
you know, Shelby County.
Then there's money that comes
from the state.
Is it-Do you guys take the money
that would have otherwise gone
to the kids in that failing
school or do you bring extra
dollars to it?
>> Barbic: A little bit of both.
So, the per-pupil dollars follow
the students.
So, if a student is now in the
ASD, the state local dollars
that the district would have
received to educate those kids-
since we're now educating them,
we receive.
We are bringing some federal
dollars.
There's school improvement grant
dollars.
You know, for the next year and
a half, there's some Race to the
Top dollars that we're bringing
to the table as a way to try
and, you know, turbo boost, at
least in these early years to
turn around in the school.
But over time, you know, our
plan is to be sustainable on the
per-pupil state, local and
federal received.
>> Barnes: Another question,
just a logistical question-When
you take over a school, are you
also in charge of the physical
plan?
Is it everything or is MCS still
take care of the physical plan?
>> Barbic: We're responsible.
We have shared service
agreements with the district.
So, we're paying them for things
like maintenance and food and
transportation.
And we're paying them on a per-
student basis for some of those
services.
>> Barnes: Another thing that
you mentioned when we were
talking before the show, you
talked about as you're ramping
up, you're hiring more people.
You're based in Nashville.
I mean, the Department of
Education is the State
Department of Education is
ultimately who employs you.
But that you're going to shift
more staff to Memphis.
Talk a little bit about that.
And I think to some people,
that's a welcome development
because they think all these
things come on down from
Nashville.
But people don't necessarily
understand that the make-up of
Memphis.
And so, more of your state
employees, the Achievement
School District people, the
administrators and so on will be
based here.
>> Barbic: Right, we're in the
process of shifting employees
here.
We have about 15 people on the
ground providing support to our
schools.
You know, even though I live in
Nashville, I'm here three days a
week.
So, I'm actually here more
during the work week than I am
in Nashville.
And so, yeah.
I mean, our goal is to shrink
the size of the Nashville office
and shift employees here and in
general, just to keep the office
keened to begin with.
I mean, we're not looking to
create a big, another big
central office bureaucracy
period.
But for the folks that we do
have on our team, we want as
many of them closest to where
the kids and students and
teachers are to provide that
support.
And right now, that's here in
Memphis based on the number of
schools.
>> Barnes: And just-We have 30
seconds.
You know, when you go in to some
of these schools, there must be
some things that are being done
right.
I mean, they're in the failing.
They're in the failing.
They're in the bottom five
percent but you look in there.
I mean, what kind of things do
you guys go in and see?
"Wow, that's a great thing
that's happening there that we
want to take advantage of."
Or is it that you walk in and
they're really disaster zones
and there's nothing going on?
>> Barbic: No, there's good
things happening in the schools.
I mean, I think in every one of
these schools, you're seeing
just heroic efforts by people in
the school whether it's teachers
or folks on the administrative
team who are working really
hard.
And we see and recognize those
people.
And they stand out, you know,
day one when you step in the
building.
>> Barnes: Alright. Well thank
you.
We're out of time.
Thank you for being here, Chris
Barbic.
Thank you, Eleanor.
Thank you, Bill.
Thank you. Thank you for joining
us.
Join us again next week.
Goodnight.
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