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>> Announcer: THE FOLLOWING
PROGRAM IS A SPECIAL
PRESENTATION OF THE
BIG TEN NETWORK, PRODUCED IN
ASSOCIATION WITH THE
UNIVERSITY OF IOWA.
>> WELCOME TO "CONVERSATIONS
FROM THE IOWA WRITERS'
WORKSHOP."
I'M KECIA LYNN.
ETHAN CANIN IS THE AUTHOR OF
THREE SHORT-STORY COLLECTIONS,
INCLUDING "EMPEROR OF THE AIR"
AND "THE PALACE THIEF," AND FOUR
NOVELS, INCLUDING "CARRY ME
ACROSS THE WATER" AND HIS MOST
RECENT, "AMERICA AMERICA."
HE IS A GRADUATE OF STANFORD
UNIVERSITY, THE IOWA WRITERS'
WORKSHOP, AND HARVARD MEDICAL
SCHOOL AND SPENT SOME TIME
PRACTICING MEDICINE BEFORE
DECIDING TO FOCUS ON WRITING.
HE IS ON THE FACULTY OF THE
IOWA WRITERS' WORKSHOP.
ETHAN CANIN, WELCOME TO THE
SHOW.
>> THANK YOU, KECIA.
I SHOULD CORRECT YOU, BECAUSE
IT'S ACTUALLY TWO COLLECTIONS OF
STORIES AND FOUR NOVELS.
>> OH, OKAY.
>> YOU CAN USE THAT ONE NEXT
YEAR.
>> OKAY. THAT'LL WORK.
>> [ LAUGHS ]
>> WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR
MOST RECENT NOVEL, WHICH IS
"AMERICA AMERICA" -- AMBITIOUS
TITLE FOR AN AMBITIOUS NOVEL.
THEY'RE CALLING THIS YOUR
"BIG NOVEL."
LIKE THEY'RE COMPARING IT TO
"GATSBY."
THEY'RE COMPARING IT TO
DREISER'S "AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY."
I ALWAYS WONDER ABOUT WHEN YOU
HEAR ABOUT SOMETHING BEING "THE
BIG NOVEL," AS IF YOU HAVE NO
OTHER NOVELS IN YOU.
THIS IS LIKE THE BIG ONE.
BUT AFTER A LONG CAREER OF
WRITING, TELL ME ABOUT HOW THIS
NOVEL DEVELOPED.
>> IT'S FUNNY.
WHEN THE BOOK CAME OUT, THE
FIRST SEVERAL REVIEWS, ONE AFTER
THE OTHER, CALLED IT AN EPIC.
AND I SWEAR TO YOU, I WAS
SURPRISED 'CAUSE I JUST THOUGHT
I WAS WRITING A BOOK.
AND I GUESS IT IS SORT OF EPIC
IN ITS SCOPE.
BUT BOOKS JUST GET LONGER AS YOU
GET FURTHER ALONG IN YOUR
CAREER.
THIS BOOK STARTED OUT AS
ACTUALLY SOMETHING MUCH SMALLER,
JUST A LITTLE CHARACTER STORY
ABOUT A WORKING-CLASS BOY WHO
MEETS AN UPPER-CLASS GIRL.
AND I'D WRITTEN ABOUT 300 PAGES
OF IT WHEN SEPTEMBER 11th
HAPPENED.
AND I STOPPED WRITING FOR ABOUT
TWO OR THREE YEARS.
AND AS ALMOST EVERYBODY IN THE
COUNTRY DID, I BECAME MORE
SERIOUS ABOUT HISTORY AND
POLITICS IN THOSE THREE YEARS.
AND WHEN I CAME BACK TO THE
BOOK, IT BECAME A POLITICAL
NOVEL.
A SENATOR ENTERED IT, A RACE
FOR THE PRESIDENCY -- ALL THIS
THAT WASN'T EVEN IN THE BOOK
BEFORE.
AND IT'S ACTUALLY SORT OF THE
BACKBONE OF THE BOOK NOW.
IT WAS AN ADDITION THAT CAME
YEARS AFTER BEGINNING IT.
AND THAT'S WHAT NOVEL WRITING IS
LIKE, AT LEAST FOR ME AND FOR A
LOT OF LITERARY WRITERS.
YOU JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE
DOING, AND YOU SEE WHAT
DEVELOPS, AND YOU SEE IF THERE'S
SOMETHING THAT WILL SURPRISE
YOU -- "YOU" BEING THE WRITER --
AND HOPE IT CAN SURPRISE THE
READER, TOO.
BUT IT DOES FEEL LIKE A MUCH
BIGGER BOOK TO ME THAN ANY OTHER
BOOK I'VE WRITTEN.
>> YEAH, WELL, IT'S VERY
AMBITIOUS IN SCOPE.
AND YOU'RE DESCRIBING -- NOT TO
PUT TOO FINE A POINT ON IT --
THE AMERICAN DREAM.
AND AS IT'S TYPIFIED IN THIS
SMALL TOWN IN PENNSYLVANIA, IT
DESCRIBES HOW THESE PEOPLE ARE,
YOU KNOW, THEY TRAVEL THROUGH
TIME -- RATHER, I SHOULD SAY,
THEY ARE TRAVELING THROUGH THE
EVOLUTION OF AMERICA, RIGHT?
>> MM-HMM.
YEAH, IT BEGINS IN THE EARLY
'70s, SORT OF THE HEIGHT OF, THE
PEAK OF LIBERALISM, THE PEAK OF
THE POWER OF LIBERALISM WHEN A
LOT OF THE SORT OF GREAT SOCIAL
LEGISLATIONS THAT JOHNSON OR
F.D.R. HAD PASSED.
IT WAS SORT OF AT ITS PEAK AND
GOES UP TO PRETTY MUCH THE
PRESENT DAY.
BUT IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE
THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A GUY WHO RUNS
FOR PRESIDENT IN THIS BOOK, AND
HE GIVES A SPEECH CALLED
"THE BRIDGES OF HOPE" IN SORT OF
THE MIDDLE OF THIS BOOK.
AND I WROTE THIS THREE YEARS
BEFORE I'D HEARD OF
BARACK OBAMA -- OR TWO YEARS
BEFORE.
BUT IT WAS INTERESTING HOW IT
SORT OF PRESAGED ALL THAT STUFF.
>> IT'S VERY INTERESTING THIS
BOOK CAME OUT WHEN IT DID.
IT CAME OUT EARLIER THIS YEAR,
DURING WHAT, FOR ME, IS THE MOST
EXCITING ELECTION CYCLE I'VE
EVER WITNESSED.
>> OH, MY GOD.
IT WAS AN INCREDIBLE ELECTION.
LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, I DON'T
KNOW WHAT TO DO NOW.
WHAT CAN I PAY ATTENTION TO?
MY DAYS ARE BEREFT.
>> RIGHT, RIGHT.
AFTER ALL THE TIME SPENT PAYING
ATTENTION TO THIS.
AND IT'S INTERESTING -- THIS IS
A SENATOR THAT IS RUNNING, AND
YOU SET THIS DURING THE 1972
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, WHICH WAS
ALSO A MOMENTOUS ELECTION IN
TERMS OF NIXON AND MUSKIE AND
GEORGE McGOVERN.
WE HAVE THIS SENATOR CALLED
HENRY BONWILLER, AND WE HAVE THE
MAN THAT IS BEHIND HIM NAMED
LIAM METAREY, WHO IS THE SON OF
THE FOUNDER OF THIS LITTLE TOWN,
THAT EVERYBODY HAS WORKED FOR,
HAS RELATIVES WHO WORKED FOR.
SEVERAL GENERATIONS.
IT'S A SKETCH OF A TIME AND A
PERIOD THAT I WONDER -- YOU
KNOW, I REMEMBER THIS, BEING
FROM WHERE I AM.
BUT IT'S A TIME THAT A LOT OF
PEOPLE SEEM TO -- I DON'T KNOW
HOW MUCH OF THIS IS EVEN STILL
AROUND, BUT I THOUGHT THAT THE
BOOK REALLY CAPTURED THAT SENSE
OF, YOU KNOW, GENERATIONS AND
LOYALTY AND, YOU KNOW, THE
OLD-TIMERS VERSUS THE
NEW-TIMERS, THE DIFFERENT NAMES
FOR THE TOWN DEPENDING ON
WHETHER YOU'RE AN OLD-TIMER OR A
NEWCOMER.
>> IT'S ABOUT A NUMBER OF
THINGS.
THE POLITICAL PART IS ONE, BUT
IT'S ALSO ABOUT SMALL TOWNS, AND
IT'S ABOUT THIS -- THERE'S BEEN
A TRADITION FOR YEARS OF THE
SORT OF MAGNATE WHO'S ALSO
GENEROUS TO THE TOWN, WHO'S THE
PHILANTHROPIST, WHO'S THE
BENEFACTOR OF THE TOWN, AND
WHO'S GOOD-HEARTED.
AND THAT'S WHAT HE IS TO ME,
THIS GUY LIAM METAREY.
I PRONOUNCE HIS NAME
"MET-uh-ree."
>> RIGHT. OKAY.
I DIDN'T TRY TO PRONOUNCE THE
FATHER'S NAME.
I DIDN'T ATTEMPT IT, BUT HE
COMES FROM SCOTLAND, AND HE'S A
SELF-MADE MAN.
HE TAKES THIS TOWN.
HE BUILDS QUARRIES.
HE DOES LUMBER MILLS.
AND PRETTY SOON, EVERYBODY IS
WORKING FOR THE METAREY FAMILY.
AND SO, AGAIN, IT SHOWS THIS
INTERESTING DESCRIPTION OF CLASS
AND HOW, AGAIN, THAT LIAM IS
SUCH A BENEFACTOR.
AND THEN THE NARRATOR,
COREY SIFTER, AS HE SAYS IN THE
BOOK, HE BELIEVES HE HAS
BENEFITED THE MOST OF ALL.
>> YEAH, AND HE'S BEHOLDEN, IN A
WAY, TO THE MAN WHO HAS HELPED
HIM OUT.
AND THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK IS
ABOUT, REALLY, IN THE END, IS
THIS YOUNG NARRATOR, WHO IS A
BLUE-COLLAR BOY, BY DINT OF
VARIOUS THINGS, BECOMES SORT OF
A WHITE-COLLAR OR HIGHER ADULT,
AND LOOKING BACK ON WHAT THIS
GREAT AND GENEROUS BENEFACTOR
GAVE HIM AND WHAT THIS YOUNG MAN
HAD TO GIVE IN RETURN.
>> RIGHT.
>> AND IT'S ALSO ABOUT
PARENTING, ACTUALLY.
IT'S ABOUT BEING A FATHER TO
CHILDREN TO A LARGER EXTENT, AND
ALSO BEING A SON TO PARENTS.
SO THE BOOK STARTED VERY
PERSONALLY, BECAME VERY
POLITICAL, AND IN THE END
BECOMES PERSONAL AGAIN, AT LEAST
FOR ME.
>> OH, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
>> AND THE LAST THIRD OF THE
BOOK FEELS MORE LIKE A PERSONAL
CHARACTER STORY ABOUT CHILDREN
AND PARENTS.
>> WHICH IS ACTUALLY ONE OF MY
FAVORITE PARTS OF THE BOOK, I
JUST HAVE TO SAY -- I'M JUMPING
A LITTLE BIT AHEAD HERE --
'CAUSE BY THE TIME WE'RE IN THAT
SECTION, WE'RE IN THE MODERN
DAY, AND WE'RE SEEING THE CHANGE
IN THE TOWN, AND WE'RE SEEING
WHAT WAS THE VAST ESTATE BEING
CARVED UP.
SO COREY AND HIS FATHER AND
THEIR FRIEND GO AND THEY SEE
THIS HAPPENING, AND THERE'S SOME
REALLY INTERESTING INSIGHTS THAT
YOU GIVE IN THE BOOK ABOUT,
AGAIN, THE EVOLUTION OF THIS
SMALL TOWN.
SOME THINGS HAVE ALREADY GONE
AWAY.
WHEN THE STORY STARTS -- WE
SHOULD EXPLAIN THAT COREY
ACTUALLY GOES BACK IN TIME TO
WHEN HE WAS A TEENAGER.
AND MUCH OF THE STORY IS ABOUT
HIM WORKING FOR THE METAREY
FAMILY.
AND SO WE ARE SEEING WHAT IT WAS
LIKE FOR HIM IN THE '60s AND THE
'70s AND THEN BEING INVOLVED
WITH THIS POLITICAL CAMPAIGN
WITH SENATOR BONWILLER AND
LIAM METAREY.
AND THE BOOK JUMPS BACK AND
FORTH IN TIME.
I'M ALWAYS CURIOUS ABOUT
WRITERS' CHOICES WHEN THEY
DECIDE TO DO THAT, IN TERMS OF
HOW -- IT SEEMS AS THOUGH HE'S
FIGURING IT OUT AND WE'RE
FIGURING OUT THE EVENTS WITH
HIM.
>> MM-HMM.
YOU MEAN THE GOING BACK AND
FORTH IN TIME.
>> RIGHT.
>> YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE IN
EXPERIMENTAL FICTION IN THE
SENSE THAT -- A LOT OF PEOPLE
MISTAKE EXPERIMENTAL FICTION FOR
FICTION THAT YOU CAN'T
UNDERSTAND, WHICH I DON'T LIKE
AT ALL.
I LIKE PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND MY
STORIES.
BUT I BELIEVE STRONGLY IN
EXPERIMENTAL FICTION IN THE
SENSE OF AN EXPERIMENT, THE WAY
A SCIENTIST WOULD DO AN
EXPERIMENT -- THAT IS, YOU
KEEP EVERYTHING THE SAME
AND YOU CHANGE ONE THING AND
YOU SEE WHAT IT DOES.
SO THE THING THAT I'VE BEEN
WORKING ON IN THE LAST COUPLE OF
BOOKS IS THIS IDEA OF HOW TO
TELL A STORY IN TWO DIFFERENT
TIMES AT ONCE.
AND IT'S KIND OF CINEMATIC, THE
WAY I LOOK AT IT.
THERE'S A MOMENT IN MOVIES THAT
I ADORE, AND ONE OF MY OLD
STUDENTS TOLD ME IT'S CALLED A
"SOUND BRIDGE."
>> A SOUND BRIDGE.
>> WHEN THE SOUND FROM THE
PREVIOUS SCENE IS CARRIED
FORWARD INTO AN UTTERLY
DIFFERENT SCENE.
IT SORT OF CONNECTS YOU TO THE
LAST SCENE BUT ALSO DISORIENTS
YOU AND REORIENTS YOU INTO THE
NEW SCENE.
AND I LOVE THAT MOMENT IN MOVIES
WHEN YOU'RE DISORIENTED, WHEN
THE SOUND OF THE BOMBER ENGINE
OVER THE PHILIPPINES BECOMES THE
SOUND OF THE SHOE-STAMPING
MACHINE IN A LEATHER PLANT IN
LOUISIANA...
>> RIGHT, RIGHT.
>> ...100 YEARS LATER.
AND I LOVE THAT MOMENT WHEN
YOU'RE DISORIENTED AND THEN
REORIENTED, 'CAUSE I THINK IT
ALLOWS YOU TO SINK DEEPER INTO
SOMETHING.
AND THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO
WORK ON IN FICTION -- THAT MIGHT
BE MY LITTLE 2-CENT
CONTRIBUTION.
>> WELL, IT WAS REALLY
INTERESTING, AGAIN, BECAUSE --
AND I ALWAYS THINK BECAUSE I
REMEMBER THIS TIME, I REMEMBER
WHAT THIS TYPE OF ENVIRONMENT IS
LIKE.
AND HE IS IN THIS PLACE WHERE
HE'S A FATHER.
THE BOOK OPENS UP WITH THE
FUNERAL OF SENATOR BONWILLER,
AND HE IS TRIGGERED INTO ALL
THESE MEMORIES.
AND I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT
HE IS ASKING HIMSELF ALL THESE
QUESTIONS ABOUT -- WITHOUT
GIVING AWAY TOO MUCH OF THE
BOOK -- ABOUT THESE EVENTS THAT
HAPPENED THAT PROPELLED
SENATOR BONWILLER INTO THE
ELECTION BUT THEN TOOK HIM OUT.
>> SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS IN THIS
CAMPAIGN, SOMETHING NEFARIOUS
AND DARK.
AND THIS YOUNG NARRATOR, AS A
TEENAGER, IS INVOLVED IN IT IN
WAYS THAT HE'S QUITE AWARE OF, I
THINK, AT LEAST IN MY VISION OF
THE BOOK, AND HAS KEPT THE
SECRET SORT OF AS OBLIGATION TO
THE MAN WHO HAS, IN EVERY OTHER
WAY, BEEN GOOD-HEARTED AND
GENEROUS AND PHILANTHROPIC.
AND THIS BOOK IS HIS EXAMINATION
OF THE GUILT HE FEELS OVER
HAVING BEEN INVOLVED IN
SOMETHING NOW THAT HE IS A
FATHER.
>> IT'S INTERESTING HOW
CHARACTERS COME IN AND OUT OF
THIS BOOK.
AND HIS OWN DAUGHTERS DON'T SHOW
UP TILL LATER IN THE BOOK, BUT
IT'S IN A VERY PIVOTAL POINT
WHERE IT'S MODERN DAY AND HE'S
LOOKING FOR HIS DAUGHTER, AND HE
FINDS HER WITH AN OLDER MAN, AND
IT TRIGGERS SOMETHING IN HIM
WHERE HE STARTS THINKING ABOUT
THESE EVENTS, THE BAD EVENTS
THAT HAPPENED, AND REALIZING
THAT IT WASN'T UNTIL HE BECAME A
FATHER AND THEN SAW THAT WHAT
HAPPENED IS SOMETHING THAT WAS
UNFORGIVABLY WRONG.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS I ALWAYS
TELL MY STUDENTS WHEN WE TALK
ABOUT WRITING FICTION -- AND
THEY COME IN WITH THE IDEA THAT
A CHARACTER IS SUPPOSED TO
CHANGE IN A STORY OR A NOVEL.
AND I TELL THEM, "NO, THAT'S NOT
TRUE."
I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY GET THAT
IDEA.
THEY GET THAT IN HIGH SCHOOL
ENGLISH SOMEWHERE.
"WHEN'S THE LAST TIME YOU EVER
CHANGED?" I USUALLY SAY TO THEM.
BUT I DO THINK THAT ONE OF THE
FEW TIMES ONE DOES CHANGE IN
ONE'S LIFE IS WHEN ONE HAS
CHILDREN.
THERE IS A "BEFORE ONE HAD
CHILDREN" AND THEN THERE'S THE
"AFTER ONE HAD CHILDREN."
ONE OF THE GREAT CHANGES AND
GREAT DEEPENINGS OF ONE'S LIFE
IS TO HAVE CHILDREN.
I THOUGHT I LIVED A PRETTY FULL
LIFE BEFORE I HAD KIDS.
AND IN RETROSPECT, I FEEL AS
THOUGH I WAS DEAD THEN IN TERMS
JUST OF HOW DEEPLY I CAN FEEL
ART NOW, HOW DEEPLY BOOKS MOVE
ME, HOW DEEPLY MOVIES, MUSIC --
EVERYTHING.
THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT HAVING A
CHILD, HAVING THAT VULNERABILITY
IN THE WORLD THAT ALLOWS YOU TO
BECOME VULNERABLE TO ALL KINDS
OF ART.
>> RIGHT.
THIS LETS ME TIE INTO A QUESTION
I HAD ABOUT IOWA, YOUR
EXPERIENCE WITH IOWA, BECAUSE
YOU CAME HERE AS A STUDENT IN
THE '80s.
AND WHEN I CAME TO IOWA, ONE OF
THE FIRST STORIES I HEARD --
IT'S BECOME WORKSHOP LEGEND --
"ETHAN CANIN CAME AND ONLY WROTE
SO MANY PAGES."
>> [ LAUGHS ]
>> OKAY, AND, YOU KNOW, THOSE OF
US WHO COME TO IOWA AS STUDENTS,
I THINK A LOT OF US WAIT FOR THE
HAND TO COME BACK AND SAY,
"OKAY, NO, YOU DON'T BELONG
HERE."
>> [ LAUGHS ]
>> BUT YOU COME WITH CERTAIN
EXPECTATIONS OF YOURSELF, AND
THEN, WHATEVER HAPPENS, THEN YOU
ARE LAUNCHED ON WHAT WILL
HOPEFULLY BE A WRITING CAREER.
BUT A LOT OF THINGS HAPPENED TO
YOU BETWEEN THE TIME YOU WERE
HERE AS A STUDENT AND THEN THE
TIME YOU BECAME A FACULTY.
>> YEAH. WELL, IT'S FUNNY.
IT'S TRUE -- I DIDN'T WRITE A
WORD WHEN I WAS HERE.
IN THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS OF MY
TIME HERE, I HAD A THESIS DUE.
IN THOSE DAYS, WE NEEDED
50 OR 60 PAGES FOR THE THESIS --
I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS NOW --
AND I HAD ABOUT 35 WHEN I'D
COME.
SO I WROTE THE LAST 25.
I FIGURED THAT WAS IT FOR ME AS
A WRITER.
I'D FAILED.
AND I CERTAINLY HAD THAT FEELING
THAT EVERYBODY ELSE HAS -- THAT,
YOU KNOW, "JUST GOT TO MAKE SURE
NOBODY FINDS OUT THAT I GOT IN
BY ACCIDENT."
>> MM-HMM.
>> AND PEOPLE USED TO SAY TO ME
ALL THE TIME, "DON'T WORRY.
YOU'LL WRITE WHEN YOU GET OUT."
AND I THOUGHT, "YEAH, THEY'RE
JUST SAYING THAT."
BUT IT TURNED OUT TO BE TRUE.
AS IT TURNS OUT FOR ME, I WENT
TO MEDICAL SCHOOL -- OF ALL THE
CRAZY THINGS TO DO -- AFTER
THAT.
BUT MY FIRST YEAR OF MEDICAL
SCHOOL, I GOT THERE, AND I WROTE
A BOOK THAT YEAR.
I DON'T KNOW IF PART OF THAT IS
THE PENT-UP ENERGY FROM BEING
HERE AND THINKING ABOUT WRITING
AND TALKING ABOUT WRITING YET
BEING INHIBITED, BECAUSE
EVERYBODY'S LOOKING AT YOU.
I TELL MY STUDENTS THAT -- THEIR
JOB HERE, A LARGE PART OF THEIR
JOB, IS TO FIND TWO OR THREE
FRIENDS WHO CAN BE THEIR CRITICS
FOR THE NEXT 30 YEARS, WHO CAN
BE THEIR COLLEAGUES FOR THE NEXT
30 YEARS, 'CAUSE YOU NEED THAT.
YOU NEED THAT WHEN YOU GET OUT
OF HERE.
NOW, HAVING COME BACK, WHEN I
LOOK BACK AT MY DAYS WHEN I
WAS A STUDENT HERE, IT FELT VERY
COMPETITIVE.
I WAS VERY SORT OF NERVOUS.
AND NOW WHEN I LOOK FROM THE
TEACHER'S CHAIR, EVERYBODY LOOKS
COOPERATIVE AND NOBODY'S
COMPETITIVE.
BUT I'M SURE IT'S JUST A
QUESTION OF VISION.
I DON'T THINK IT'S A
GENERATIONAL THING.
MAYBE IT IS A GENERATIONAL
CHANGE THAT YOUR GENERATION IS
MORE COOPERATIVE.
BUT FROM WHERE I SIT, IT
ACTUALLY SEEMS AS THOUGH THE
STUDENTS REALLY CARE ABOUT EACH
OTHER.
>> YEAH.
I WANTED TO TALK QUICKLY ABOUT
YOUR WRITING PROCESS.
THERE WAS AN EXHIBIT AT THE
OLD CAPITOL MUSEUM HERE IN
IOWA CITY CALLED
"A COMMUNITY OF WRITERS."
AND THEY HAD AN EXHIBIT OF
WRITERS' WORKSPACES, WRITERS'
DESKS.
THIS IS ACTUALLY AVAILABLE ON --
YOU CAN SEE IT ON
www.writinguniversity.org.
SO THEY SHOW YOUR WORKSPACE.
AND WHAT YOU SEE IS A BUNCH OF
CARDS LIKE THIS ON A STORYBOARD.
CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
YOUR PROCESS?
>> FOR EXAMPLE, THIS NOVEL,
"AMERICA AMERICA," HAS FOUR OR
FIVE PLOT LINES.
IT TAKES PLACE OVER A WHOLE
LIFETIME.
THERE'S SEVERAL SORT OF DISCRETE
PERIODS OF TIME.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF COMPLEX
STUFF TO ORGANIZE.
AND BY THE NATURE OF A NOVEL,
YOU CAN'T HOLD IT IN YOUR BRAIN
ANYWAY.
PERHAPS, IF YOU HAVE A TERRIFIC
BRAIN, YOU CAN HOLD A SHORT
STORY IN YOUR BRAIN.
A NOVEL IS IMPOSSIBLE.
SO WHAT I DO IS I BUY A 4x8
SHEET OF WHAT THEY CALL
EXTRUDED POLYSTYRENE, OTHERWISE
KNOWN AS "RIGID FOAM
INSULATION," THAT PINK STUFF
THAT SAYS "JOHNS MANVILLE" ON IT
USUALLY, 'CAUSE IT'S THE SIZE OF
A PIECE OF PLYWOOD, BUT IT
WEIGHS ABOUT 6 OUNCES, SO YOU
CAN CARRY IT OUT OF YOUR CAR BY
YOURSELF.
AND I GET COLORED INDEX CARDS,
AND I ASSIGN EACH COLOR TO A
PLOT, AND I WRITE DOWN WHAT EACH
SCENE DOES, AND I PIN IT UP ON
THIS THING.
AND THAT IS THE ONLY WAY I CAN
SEE A BOOK.
I CAN LOOK AT IT AND I CAN SAY
THERE'S NOT ENOUGH GREEN ABOUT
2/3 OF THE WAY THROUGH, OR I SEE
THE PINK IS BUNCHED UP AROUND
THE MIDDLE.
AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO
APPROXIMATE WHAT A READER MIGHT
BE EXPERIENCING.
'CAUSE THAT'S THING WITH
WRITING -- YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT
CLUES YOU'RE LEAVING.
AND NOBODY HAS WRITTEN WHAT HE
THOUGHT HE'S WRITTEN OR SHE HAS
THOUGHT SHE'S WRITTEN.
IT'S ALWAYS A SURPRISE.
>> YEAH, WELL, THIS IS THE
THING -- I TRY TO EXPRESS TO
WRITERS THAT THERE IS NO ONE WAY
TO WORK.
EVERYBODY HAS TO DO WHAT WORKS
FOR THEM.
AND I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT
YOU GOT A MECHANICAL-ENGINEERING
DEGREE WHEN YOU WERE AT
STANFORD.
>> I STUDIED MECHANICAL
ENGINEERING.
I ENDED UP WITH AN ENGLISH
DEGREE.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
I STUDIED COMPUTER ENGINEERING,
ENDED UP WITH AN ENGLISH DEGREE.
GEORGE SAUNDERS WAS AN ENGINEER.
AND ONE THING THAT I NOTICED
BOTH YOU AND HE HAD IN COMMON IS
THIS IDEA OF WRITING IN A KIND
OF TECHNICAL SENSE.
IN TERMS OF, LIKE YOU MENTIONED,
THE VARIABLE -- LET'S CHANGE THE
VARIABLE IN THE EQUATION.
LET'S SEE WHAT WE COME UP WITH.
IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
MAKES WRITING FUN.
I FIND MYSELF DOING SOME OF
THAT, AS WELL.
>> WELL, THE THING IS, TO
ACTUALLY INVENT SOMETHING, TO
WRITE A NOVEL, YOU HAVE TO BE
SORT OF MANIC AND INTUITIVE AND
IMAGINATIVE AND ILLOGICAL.
AND THE CONNECTIONS YOU HAVE TO
MAKE ARE JUST A COUPLE OF STEPS
BEYOND WHAT ARE LOGICALLY
EXPRESSIBLE.
AND YOU HAVE TO TRUST THOSE SORT
OF UNCONSCIOUS MAGNETISMS THAT
PULL YOU IN A CERTAIN DIRECTION.
BUT TO EDIT A NOVEL OR TO EDIT A
BOOK, YOU HAVE TO BE SORT OF
DARK-MINDED AND RIGOROUS AND
SELF-CRITICAL.
SO I THINK IT REALLY TAKES TWO
HALVES OF A PERSONALITY.
>> THERE HAVE BEEN MOVIES MADE
FROM SOME OF YOUR WORKS, RIGHT?
>> MM-HMM.
>> THE STORY FROM
"THE PALACE THIEF" WAS MADE INTO
A MOVIE CALLED
"THE EMPEROR'S CLUB."
I BELIEVE YOU ACTUALLY WROTE A
SCREENPLAY FOR ONE OF YOURS.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
>> IT TAKES PLACE IN YOUR
HOMETOWN OF CLEVELAND -- OR
ACTUALLY SHAKER HEIGHTS, SORT
OF.
YEAH, THAT WAS MADE FROM A STORY
CALLED "BATORSAG AND SZERELEM."
I BELIEVE THAT'S HOW YOU
PRONOUNCE IT.
>> OKAY. [ LAUGHS ]
>> AND, OF COURSE, THEY CHANGED
THE TITLE TO "BEAUTIFUL, OHIO."
IT HAS WILLIAM HURT IN IT.
IT'S ACTUALLY A GOOD MOVIE.
YOU CAN GET IT ON NETFLIX OR
BUY THE DVD RIGHT NOW.
YOU KNOW, I'VE HAD SEVERAL
MOVIES MADE.
I'VE HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF THAT
ONE -- OF, SAY, WRITING THE
SCREENPLAY, BEING ON THE SET
EVERY DAY.
AND I'VE HAD, LIKE
"THE EMPEROR'S CLUB," WHERE I
DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH
THE SCREENPLAY.
THEY INVITED ME FOR A COUPLE
DAYS TO THE SET.
THEY WERE NICE TO ME.
AND I'VE RECENTLY HAD A MOVIE
MADE IN WHICH I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
IT WAS BEING MADE.
THEY PAID ME THE MONEY A COUPLE
YEARS AGO, AND THE NEXT THING I
KNEW, IT WAS FINISHED.
DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
NEVER WENT, NEVER MET THEM,
NEVER SPOKE TO THEM.
AND I HAVE TO SAY, THAT'S
PROBABLY THE BEST EXPERIENCE OF
THE THREE.
[ BOTH LAUGH ]
>> WHO WAS IT THAT SAID, "DRIVE
UP TO THE BORDER OF CALIFORNIA,
YOU THROW THE SCRIPT OVER, AND
THEN YOU GO BACK HOME"?
I FORGET WHICH WRITER SAID THAT.
>> EXACTLY.
>> SO, NOW, HAVING HAD THAT
EXPERIENCE, WOULD YOU DO IT
AGAIN, THE SCREENPLAY WRITING,
IF SOMEBODY OFFERED YOU?
>> I WOULD APPROACH IT WITH A
LITTLE BIT OF WARINESS.
OR PERHAPS I WOULD DO IT AGAIN,
BUT I WOULD NOT APPROACH IT WITH
HIGH HOPES.
>> OKAY. [ LAUGHS ]
>> YOU KNOW, SCREENPLAYS ARE, TO
ME, A LOT EASIER THAN NOVELS.
I'LL TELL YOU THAT.
PEOPLE SAY SCREENPLAYS ARE
DIFFICULT.
I DON'T FIND THEM TO BE.
I'VE ONLY WRITTEN ONE, BUT, YOU
KNOW, IN THE NOVEL, IF YOU WANT
TO CONVINCE SOMEBODY HE'S IN
ANTARCTICA, YOU KNOW, IT TAKES
50 PAGES OF WORK AND THIS AND
THAT.
AND IN A SCREENPLAY, YOU'LL
WRITE "EXTERIOR DAYLIGHT,
SOMEWHERE IN ANTARCTICA."
>> START TALKING. GO.
>> RIGHT, EXACTLY.
AND IF YOU NEED TO CREATE SOME
KIND OF EMOTIONAL MOMENT IN A
SCREENPLAY YOU WRITE, THERE IS A
MOMENT.
I MEAN, AND LET THE ACTOR DO IT.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW -- MAY I
BE STRUCK DOWN FOR SAYING
THIS -- THAT'S NOTHING COMPARED
TO WRITING A BOOK.
IT'S A LOT HARDER.
EDITING A MOVIE IS VERY MUCH
LIKE EDITING A BOOK.
YOU KNOW, YOU SHOOT A CAN OF
FOOTAGE, AND THEN YOU CAN MAKE
A HUNDRED DIFFERENT MOVIES OUT
OF IT.
>> RIGHT, RIGHT.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT
OPTIONS HERE.
I ALWAYS WONDER, AS A WRITER,
WHAT MUST IT BE LIKE TO SEE YOUR
MOVIE.
'CAUSE SEVERAL MOVIES HAVE BEEN
MADE FROM YOUR STORIES.
HAVE YOU SEEN THESE MOVIES?
>> I'VE SEEN MOST OF THEM.
I HAVE NOT SEEN THE LAST ONE,
WHICH IS CALLED "THE YEAR OF
GETTING TO KNOW US."
>> RIGHT.
>> I'VE SEEN SOME FOOTAGE OF IT
BUT NOT SEEN THE WHOLE MOVIE.
THAT'S THE ONE WHERE I DROVE TO
THE BORDER OF CALIFORNIA AND
THREW THE -- IT WASN'T EVEN
THAT.
THEY THREW THE CHECK OVER, AND I
GRABBED IT.
>> YEAH.
>> WHERE WERE WE AT?
I FORGOT THE QUESTION.
>> I WAS ASKING WHAT IS IT LIKE
AS A WRITER TO SEE YOUR STORIES
ON THE SCREEN.
>> BASICALLY, YOU KIND OF
CRINGE.
FOR SOME REASON, I'M ABLE TO
GIVE THINGS AWAY.
FOR EXAMPLE,
"THE EMPEROR'S CLUB," WITH
KEVIN KLINE -- I THOUGHT
KEVIN KLINE WAS TERRIFIC.
I ACTUALLY LOVE THAT MOVIE.
I THINK IT'S A TERRIFIC MOVIE.
THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS
DIFFERENT.
IT HAS A HAPPY ENDING.
THERE'S A ROMANCE THAT'S NOT IN
THE BOOK.
BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?
I ACTUALLY DIDN'T LIKE THE
ROMANCE.
BUT I LIKED THE HAPPY ENDING.
HIS ENDING WAS JUST AS GOOD AS
MINE.
AND I LOVED SEEING SOME OF THOSE
CHILD ACTORS.
SO IT ALMOST READS AS THOUGH
IT'S SOMEBODY ELSE'S WORK.
>> YEAH, BUT IT'S STILL -- IT'S
YOUR STORY.
IT MAY NOT HAVE NECESSARILY BEEN
YOUR VISION, BUT IT COMES CLOSE
TO IT OR IT APPROXIMATES IT.
>> BUT THAT KIND OF ASSUMES THAT
I SET OUT TO WRITE A STORY, BUT
THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS.
YOU STRUGGLE AND, "OH, GOD,"
MOVE THE MUD OUT OF THE WAY,
AND, "WHERE IS THIS STORY?" AND,
"IS THAT A STORY?"
SO IT'S NOT AS THOUGH I HAD
THIS -- AND YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS
TO WRITE.
YOU THINK, "SHOULD I END IT THIS
WAY OR SHOULD I END IT THAT
WAY?"
AND THERE'S SO MUCH JUST
INCONCLUSIVENESS WITH WRITING.
AND IT CAN GO A HUNDRED
DIFFERENT WAYS.
AND I THINK IF YOU'RE OPEN TO
THAT, THEN YOU CAN ENJOY THE
MOVIE AS A SEPARATE THING.
>> IT'S ITS OWN THING.
WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT, "IS THE
BOOK BETTER THAN THE MOVIE?
IS THE STORY BETTER THAN THE
MOVIE?" VICE VERSA.
THOSE OF US WHO READ, USUALLY
THE BOOK IS BETTER THAN THE
MOVIE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT
THEM AS SEPARATE THINGS, YOU CAN
APPRECIATE MOVIES FOR WHAT THEY
ARE, ABSOLUTELY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, ETHAN.
>> MY PLEASURE, KECIA.
>> "AMERICA AMERICA,"
ETHAN CANIN'S LATEST BOOK.
THIS IS "CONVERSATIONS FROM THE
IOWA WRITERS' WORKSHOP."
I'M KECIA LYNN.
>> Announcer: THE PRECEDING
PROGRAM WAS PRODUCED BY THE
UNIVERSITY OF IOWA IN
ASSOCIATION WITH THE
BIG TEN NETWORK.