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Hello kevin clarkson here.
Inviting you to be with us at our pikes peak prophecy summit
this june seventeenth eighteen and nineteen.
In lovely colorado springs. We have a wonderful jam packed
three days for you with over twenty.
Of the romanian communist regime. And how that came to
fall. By the influence of christians there in the land.
It's by director kevin.
Being proposed this would change everything. In the middle east.
And then finally on sunday we wrap it up with the great
rapture debate.
We have a pre-treat rapture in a post read rapture specialist who
will go head to head and we will take place.
I hope you'll be there where this is going to be a great
conference. See you there. Hi. I'm doug woodward.
Hosting today's prophecy in the news we're so glad to have you
in with us today in the studio.
Is our friend doug stopper doug welcome again to prophesy in the
news.
Great to be here i so much enjoyed the last program
and i'm looking forward to this once well i try to ask a couple
of questions that might not be softball questions.
Or current ball curve balls that might be curveballs and so i'd
like to put you on the spot a little bit.
I don't want to be too easy because i know our listeners
like some challenging questions and and.
Happily you're someone who can answer some challenging
questions that's why we're so pleased to have you on the show
today. Let's talk about. Really from your new book that we're
going to talk about here in a moment but.
Well talk about really reviving the bless of hope that's a
lonely ends.
That is the book that we're speaking from right now. And
we're going to. Talk about second us alone eons in this.
In this program. And. Let's talk about the fact that the church
at beslan ica.
Was it was what church it was we talked about in the last. Less
program was really excited about prophecy.
But someone it looks like. As we get into second us alone eons.
Has brought some trouble to them.
Someone is plague email with an alternative view. That's got
them very concerned.
Start off if you would by telling us a little bit about
the background to this.
That this book and what might have happened. Well i think the
best place to go is probably acts chapter seventeen.
And that's where paul is in fessler nika.
He had to flee festival nyc at night and go to bree and then
those of fessler nika came down to berea.
And they had to have a mixtape again so. There was a jewish
contingent in tesla nika. That was very vocal.
And they were against what paul was teaching of course. Paul's
teachings.
Were on the pre tribulation rapture was the blessid hope it
was christ coming back for the church.
Distinct from the nation of israel and. Those jews did not
like that.
And they were in. Impersonating paul. And confusing the church
so paul wrote second thessalonians for that very
reason.
Yeah.
It's interesting because we kind of closed off our last program
talking about the distinction between the day of the
Let me read from second thessalonians chapter one.
And kind of pick up on this theme of the trouble that they
were experiencing paul says seeing it is a right.
Just thing with god. To recompence tribulation to them.
That trouble you. And to use who are troubled. Rest with us.
When the lord jesus shall be revealed from heaven. With his
mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them.
That know not god and that obey not the gospel of our lord jesus
christ.
And who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the lord. And from the glory of his power.
Are we talking about the day of christ. Or the day of the lord
in this segment. Of this yes. Yes. All right.
But i mean i don't know about both would you explain the
difference. Well what we're talking about is that that.
The thessalonians believers were supposed to presently rest.
It isn't something that says hey you're not going to rest until
jesus comes back well then you know wow what a.
What a terrible thing to have comfort and there is no comfort.
If you tell me i have no rest till the second coming of jesus
christ.
One in verse ten has the print sees there.
Because our testimony among you was believe when you have a
parent that equal fought. And you can take it out.
And the flow of the text still remains. So when you look at
verse six see is a righteous thing.
With god to recompence tribulation of them the trouble
you. First i'd like to say.
Those and tesla nika were being troubled. They were christians
so they are being troubled.
Christians tomorrow be troubled more in trouble more and. Men
are going to wax worse and worse as the day approaches.
That's the day of christ.
The day of the lord is seven years later approximately that
it's going to last a thousand years one day is with the
lord's a thousand years. Thousand years. One day.
That day the lord's going to start like an evening in the
morning where the first day that's how it's described in the
bible. It's going to be darkness. The end of the
tribulation the end of daniel seventy three weeks.
And then you have a thousand years. Of the lord ruling on
earth that's why it's called. The day of the lord.
And that the end a day is as a thousand years. That's what the
day of the lord is the day of the lord. Begins.
You know it says a course in joel it's a you know a day of
darkness that they have gloom. You see that.
Theme throughout the. Many of the prophets of the old
testament. Speaking of the day of the lord.
Here paul talks about vengeance. The mighty angels. Flaming
swords and so forth. So there's a lot of.
Language that seems to reinforce as you're saying. The day of the
lord the day of judgment. But the day of christ.
You indicate. Really is a distinction. There's a
distinction there.
You know and i you know philippians one six talks about
the day of jesus christ and.
Rejoicing in the day of christ is always positive the day of
the lord is generally negative until the positive comes
which is when the lord's actually ruling on this earth to
write when he first comes back.
The day of the lord is anything but positive. Right. It's
negative it's.
It says nor by letter as from us as that that they have christ
that hand these people thought that they had missed.
The rapture of the church. Flip ians one ten philippines to
sixteen talks about that they have christ. Now again.
There's only a king james bible because all the modern versions
change the day of christ to the day of the lorton.
And that's what causes much of the confusion. Because when you
make that change. You. You ruin the whole context.
Of second thessalonians chapter two. Among many other places so
that's why you have to have that distinction.
The day of the lord is negative to begin with and then a
thousand year reign of christ which of course.
You know the lamb and the cocher tryst then in the child playing
in. You know the words you.
You have a very positive thousand years which a lot of
people don't.
They really get confused because it's negative and then positive
but that's just the way it is a thousand year period.
Paul says in verse three of chapter two let no man deceive
you by any means.
Or that day shall not come except there come a falling away
first.
And that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. Now. The
falling away first. What.
What are we talking about here we talk about the falling away
what is the word. That is being used and. How is it.
Often interpreted and what is the controversy. Because there
is a lot of controversy about this.
And there is and i do spend a lot of time on apostasy it which
is the greek word that's behind falling away.
That falling away is an apostasy.
The reason that people have a problem with it is they say one
point a minute you're telling me that god's going to
rapture the church when they're in apostasy.
Well then they don't deserve it they've got to be purified
they've got to be pure cho most like a purgatory on earth
exactly what i was looking for yeah.
I don't think that god makes a promise and says now you've got
to live up to it to get my promise.
Israel didn't live up to the promises that they were promised
but doesn't mean. God's going to remake on the promise.
Salvation. Christ died for us while we were yet enemies christ
died for the ungodly it is not that you become.
Holy enough to be saved or holy enough to deserve salvation or.
Holy enough to deserve the rapture.
Nobody deserves the blessings of god. We only know that god. God
is faithful who promised he would do it.
And he'll perform it. Yes. Yeah that really is a. Almost a sense
that you get in the.
The pre wrath you are the poster relation. You love to have you
comment on this but it.
It seems that it is almost like well. We have to go through that
period.
Because all of our brother and that have gone on before us.
They have been persecuted.
They were tortured many of them were martyred. And so what makes
us think that we have some kind of special holiness.
Or special function you might say from god that we should just
be able to escape all of this.
How many him went through the tribulation. None of them.
but you're going to go through tribulation because they went
through tribulation. We are going to suffer tribulation.
All those that live godly in christ jesus shall suffer
persecution. The thing that the blessed that hope.
Brings and i just turned to titus to thirteen or to twelve.
Teaching us that denying ungallant swirly lusts we should
live soberly right sling godly in this present world.
Soberly. Righteously godly. What is the impetus for living that
way.
Looking for that bless of hope in the glorious appearing of the
great god in our savior jesus christ.
So by looking for him today. It should change how i live today.
By looking for him tomorrow it should change the way i live
tomorrow. What how should it change it.
In a in a pretty wrath. Or a post trip position. They're not
looking for jesus they're looking for the anti-christ.
They're looking for signs.
They're looking for the two witnesses they're looking for
the abomination of desolation they're looking for the signing
of the treaty they're looking for. They're not looking for
jesus. Lookin for jesus.
Means people should be living godly it could be if we thought
jesus was coming back today and.
How would it affect what we do. I would be so focused on trying
to keep every thought around the lord.
I would be so focused on trying to witness to people today.
That's really the message i believe it's in first john that
says. Yes that has this hope within himself.
Purifies himself. Right. And so is he talking about the hope of
facing persecution and tribulation.
Not much hope there. Yeah. You know it's not hope. The hope is
the blessid hope. Of the lord's return.
If you're looking for jesus the bless of hope pass to be seeing
him come back. That's the lesson. The alternative view.
And we're going to get a chance by the way to really get into
this debate that you and i you and.
I'll have the privilege of moderating the debate at the at
the prophecy conference that.
Colorado springs property summit. June seventeenth through
nineteen.
We call it we're calling it the great rapture debate.
But it will be a chance for you and your schimmel to really get
into this.
And then we're going to do it right we're going to have a very
structured so that we work through the scriptures.
The old testament. The gospel. Letters of paul. Revelation.
and doing it the way that we see the politicians doing it on t.v.
Talked about that. Let's talk a little about the. Follow that
seems to be at the center of this discussion.
It says a poll says that the son of perdition. Which is a unique
phrase it's only used.
And i'm not mistaken a couple of times in the bible. Who oppose
it and exult of himself above all that is called god.
Or that is worshiped. So that he is god so that in the temple of
god. Showing himself that he is a god.
Remember that when i was. Yet with you i told you these
things.
You think. Well i think.
I think when you look at the writing of first and second
thessalonians you have that jewish content. Tent.
Contingent.
When jesus was on this earth. In matthew twenty four he. He
emphasized the second coming. So now.
Israel rejects you mention dispensations. Is or rejects the
messiah.
And you go through the book of acts you got peter preaching to
the nation of israel
and then actually after seven stephen is stone
and almost seems like there's a turning point there you have a
man named saul.
He is introduced and in acts nine saul is say his name is
changed to paul. And then. Paul writes.
After the book of acts. The next books of the bible the next
fourteen books of the by with thirteen of them.
With paul's name is the first word in a king james bible calls
names the first word in romans to filey meant that.
That distinguishes those books and groups them together that's
why you rightly divide the word true.
And that's why i'm a dispensationalism. Now.
What you have is when jesus was on this earth he's speaking to
the nation of israel.
Answering a question matthew twenty four. About his coming to
earth. Well.
The group in the first century and tesla nika is many. Made up
of many of that same group that had heard jesus preach.
Well don't you think that paul can ignore that
and go oh i'm going to give you the mystery if they're happier
in the church
and just ignore that other stuff he has to deal with both issues.
And that's why he does. It's fantastic there's.
We're still going to we're going to struggle to get all this in
that we want to talk about i know.
But let's take a second. Let me talk about your new book.
Reviving the blessid hope of thessalonians the rapture
commentary series volume one.
The price the book. We are offering for fourteen ninety
five. It's going to be also offered as part of a bundle with
a.
Eleven cd set. Called after the rapture. The package.
Or the rather the price of the cd set by itself is thirty nine
ninety five. If you purchase these two together.
They'll be a discount. Of about to about ten percent. So will be
forty nine ninety five for the package together and.
The cd set also deals. Considerably with the issue of
the rapture. The pre raft rapture as well as i guess.
What does happen after the rapture occurs on the on the
planet earth. As well so.
Anyway we'd encourage you to to order this and. And if you're
coming to the prostate conference which we hope you
are.
These will be great homework for you before the great rapture
debate.
So let's begin to talk about some other challenges in really.
Chapter two.
Second us alone and there's this discussion about. And know you
not want with holder.
All right so for the mystery of iniquity death already work only
he who now let us.
Will let until he be taken out of the way you do spend some
time in the book talking about the.
What we might call the archaic language of the king james
version and. Dealing with some of the challenges as a.
Students of scripture.
You know that you're going to you're encouraging us not to be
dissuaded from reading the king james.
But to work to understand a little bit of the archaic usage.
Such as let. And withhold with and so forth.
Sure could you talk a bit about that. Well i mean i have. I'm. I
have an accounting degree. You know..
From penn state university and i'm a c.p.a. I didn't go into my
classes and say.
I don't understand what a debit credit is can you just change it
to a left and right.
They look at you like you're crazy you know in other words.
You know these aren't.
This isn't terminology i had to learn the terminology. In the
king james bible use learn a couple of terms.
Really only about two dozen it opens up things. And to say that
we don't use lead like archaic.
I just played tennis i was in florida for a couple of weeks.
I don't know why we do that the winners of vangelis but we do.
And you know you hit the net.
You know on a serve and it's called a let. Ball.
Well in other words we still use it who withhold if you know we
still use that terminology.
But you have to let the bible define it so what i do. Is i go
into the scripture.
And let the scripture define the word. And then when you do that
you end up understanding the context.
When you go outside the scripture. Even.
Eight hundred twenty eight dictionary by webster which was
the first english dictionary ever printed. Which i do use.
He didn't always get it right. He allowed his doctrine to
influence him in defining words also.
You go to lexicons
and things like that that's why you have to be very careful with
these guys that really extol the virtues of the greek
in the hebrew. The lexicons are written by men and men have
their slant on it.
When you go to the king james bible having written again an
eight hundred eighty eight page book on the history of the
king james bible. You have a situation where these men have
things in there that as church of england. Men.
It disagreed with their doctrine. But it's still in
there. Even their subheadings had replacement theology in
isaiah.
But the scripture itself didn't so when you start studying
things like that you go wow.
I
make a comment that you bring up which i think is a
fascinating comment that language does develop. And that
english.
Was in a a moment of great development of course we. We
mentioned before about shakespeare.
And he had such an enormous impact upon the english language
in so far one of the providential aspects of the.
Of the king james. Is that it's being written just as. English
has sort of. Fully flowered. Sure.
And so that's really a fascinating thing. It is
fascinating.
You might comment as well i want to get back to who this guy is
that's withholding or not.
But i know you do i know you are you know. We've got to get back
to that but. You know in terms of.
The clarity one of the things that strikes me about your book
is as you alluded to your not real big one saying well
but the greeks. Is or but the hebrew says.
And that's one of the things about your book that's appealing
is that you aren't necessarily trying to go back as an
authority and cite a greek word. To try to clarify that.
Talk a little bit about that big word i use the purse be cutey of
scripture.
What does that mean to you and how does that relate to this
discussion. Well i think the clarity.
Is in the english language and english is a language that has
such depth like no other language. Ever on earth.
You can take the same greek word. And translate it.
Twenty thirty forty different ways in the english why is that
because english is deeper. English is more full.
So how do you know what the english means context too but
you're in the greek you are more. Depended upon the context.
Then you are in english which sometimes it's just this is what
it says.
And now the context just gives it fuller meaning so you don't
you don't butcher it.
But but the greek is very problematic because i you know i
watched the debates
and i had debates amongst christians right the other ones
i watched yeah. Yeah. But you.
You see these men get up there and they say well you know the
greek says the grammar and this and you know and it's
and there's an artist it's this and. And i just there and go. Oh
really. Yeah i could argue that the other way.
And then the other guy comes in argues it the other way.
And then he says oh you're making too big a deal of the
greek grammar numsa you're going yeah he was and so are you.
You have the english language is uniquely. Developed by the
sovereignty of god. For such a time as this.
You to study the history it's amazing.
And when you have the product the king james bible come out
and you study and compare it to the geneva.
Like i did my appendix where i show one word. Right.
It has seventy four or something different ways of saying it
right. In the king james bible one word.
In the geneva bible. That shows you the depth and riches of the
english and. Yet i think that's one of..
Again the appealing aspects of your writing is that the spite
the fact that you have a ph d.
Is that you are beating us over the head with it.
You're trying to make a way like i'm playing to have a tranny
when i ruin me i hope.
I hope it didn't it didn't appear to tell us about this.
Withhold who was the withholder who is it that leadeth until he
will be taken out of the way.
And you have a different spin on this than. Than let's say some
of the conventional teachings. And i do.
And here's why when you go through. Second beslan chapter
two it's chronological. So you. Art off with.
You know the gathering together that's the rapture of the
church.
The day of christ that's the rapture of the church in church
in verse two.
You have a transition starting in verse three. For that day the
day of christ shall not come.
Except there come a fall in a way. First. What has to happen
first. The falling away. Why is that i mean.
It does that first on have to be there. There comes a falling
away and that man of sin be revealed first.
And in what is this. Falling away first that's the only has
to happen for the day of christ.
Which is the rapture of the church. That one includes the
rapture the day of christ actually is going on in heaven
for.
You know for a period of time so it's what's going on in heaven
when the day of the lord's going on on earth. Ok.
So you have. Except there come a falling away first. And that man
of sin be revealed with that revelation.
Isn't simultaneous with the falling away. It's a
chronological thing. So as you go through this chronology.
You realize that's not going to happen till probably. The man of
sin being revealed to the halfway point.
So now in one verse. And i show preston in the bible isaiah
sixty one verse one in two and elsewhere.
Where you have one verse that has a.
You know holy ghost filled believers. But the problem is
you're at the halfway point. What i do is i show no that.
That isn't what's taught there. By most people. That is the
mystery winnick with he that is satan himself.
So michael is that why do you say michael because that's the
point that is.
Certainly there are many that do but it is different they mostly
the groups of you which is that.
Well because the hundred forty four thousand are going to be
sealed also some it isn't like the spirit's gone.
Number one number two this is happening at the same point
revelation chapter twelve is happening.
That's the halfway point. Michael goes into heaven and god
says. Cast. Satan out. So he cast satan al.
And it says whoa beat inhabits the earth. That's at the halfway
point michael is the key.
So michael is israel's protector.
What is the tribulation what is day of seventh week
He cast satan to this earth. Whoa beat it inhabits the earth.
So he now let it will let michael.
Until he be taken out away who takes him out of the way that's
god taking a back up into heaven.
They need to read the book they need to read the book. But it
isn't it is not unique to you i would say that there are.
There are many that. Take that point of view and argue that
point of view.
You do point out though that the spirit clearly has a ministry
today.
And computer can be convicting of sin and so forth. And so
there is a process in which the spirit.
Does begin to not have the same kind of influence when the
church is gone. Because i give both.
Both viewpoints in other words what i say is this is what's
traditionally taught. But here's the problem.
When you go through the chronology. And if this is
chronological and you get to the halfway point of the
tribulation.
What you have is you have to realize who it is. We hope
you've enjoyed this program's been fantastic for us and just.
Great discussion thank you dr much. And the audience we had
this thing courage you. To keep looking.