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Mr Jon Faine, Master of Ceremonies/Moderator - RMIT University.
Welcome ladies and gentlemen to RMIT University. We're in the former
magistrates' Court under the very canopy where in 1880 Justice Redmond Barry sentenced
to death a man who has gone on to become an Australian legend and I speak
of course about Ned Kelly. Welcome to the audience here in the court at
Federation Square on the big screen and on Channel 31.
Kelly went to the gallows just around the corner at the old Melbourne Gaol.
The gaol and this building on the corner of Russell and La Trobe Streets form part of the
National Trust's justice precinct. Now, Ned Kelly's corpse had scarcely settled in
its grave when Melbourne philanthropist Francis Ormond made a public commitment
to help fund what was called then a Working Men's College. That college, known today as
RMIT University, opened here at La Trobe Street in 1887, less than seven
years after Ned Kelly was executed.
Now if the demise of the Kelly Gang marked the end of Victoria's frontier period
the opening of the college could be said to herald a new era, an era of sober prosperity
here for Melbourne. Which raises the question that brings us here today, if Kelly had been caught,
sentenced and then hung around seven years later would he actually have needed to
have been executed? To put it another way, if the young Kelly had had the opportunity
of an education at the Working Men's College would his burning sense of injustice as well as
his practical and political skills have been put to a different and better use.
For Ned was it a case of better read than dead.
Today, this debate is being streamed live to Federation Square and simulcast on Channel 31. I'm Jon Faine from the ABC.
I'm your host. Our panel members include Professor Verity Burgmann, Australian historian
from the University of Melbourne; Lex Lasry QC from the Melbourne bar;
Professor Margaret Gardner AO from RMIT where she's the university Vice-Chancellor and President;
Simon Brown-Greaves Forensic Psychologist, Dr Alan Montague who at RMIT is an
apprenticeships and training expert; Waleed Aly, social commentator and author of
a new book, People Like Us; John Rawlinson, CEO of Talent2 a management
consultancy and recruitment company; and Steve Dargavel, State Secretary of the Australian
Manufacturing Workers Union and I invite you, the audience, to be the judge.
Would Ned Kelly have been hanged if instead he had been educated? Simon Brown-Greaves,
you're one of Australia's leading forensic psychologists with a history of dealing with
and profiling some of Australia's more interesting and troubled criminal minds, from what
you know, what we all know of Ned Kelly and his background give us a profiling, if you could,
of the type of man that Ned was. Did this environment that he lived in contribute
to his life of crime? Did he have a predisposition to *** and rob?
Mr Simon Brown-Greaves, Forensic Psychologist.
Thanks, Jon. Given what we know now and looking back and speculating as we must, Ned Kelly
certainly appeared to be a man who was a product of his context, his environment
and his time and I have to say, in terms of the fundamental thesis, had he received a
strong and solid education would that have perhaps led to a different outcome? Absolutely.
Verity Burgmann, how educated were people in those times?
Professor Verity Burgmann, Australian Historian and Author, University of Melbourne.
Well, in 1861 only about half of school-aged children could read and write.
In 1872 the situation started to improve when free compulsory and secular education
was introduced in Victoria and over the next three years 600 schools were built.
However, by this time poor Ned was 18, so he missed out on this very, very, very progressive
development.
So what extent was he just a product of his time?
He was very much a product of his times. He actually had several years' education,
he passed reading and writing but he failed arithmetic, grammar and geography
and if you read what Ned wrote you can certainly see that he was not a role model
when it comes to use of grammar and punctuation.
Although it raises the question whether Ned wrote what Ned has said to have written.
Oh, I think he did. It was transcribed by Joe Burn, who was slightly better educated but he was very,
very much a product of his time in that he was one of the many people who were, after the
gold rushes had ended, desperately needing to make a livelihood and he was
really a victim of what must be described as the biggest public policy stuff up in Australian
history, the Selection Acts. These were designed to settle people like Ned and his family
on the land to break up the monopoly of land held by the squatters and,
in fact, they had exactly the opposite effect.
Yes.
Between 1860 and 1863 of the 1.8 million acres taken up for selection 1.6 million
went to squatters because they manipulated the system, they put up dummies,
they basically got round the regulations.
A great land grab. Margaret Gardner, what does RMIT University offer that might have
appealed to someone like Ned?
Professor Margaret Gardner AO, Vice-Chancellor and President, RMIT University
Well, what it offered then was quite a big choice of subjects and a lot of people
came to RMIT when it opened in the ... in 1887 to pick up the sort of education they had
missed out on in earlier years, so although some people came at age 15 there were people
who came who were much older and they picked up the maths, the algebra, the writing
skills. In fact, a lot of the skills that then took them on to other ... to other qualifications but he could
have also ... he could have started ... he could have started in art, he could have started in architecture,
he could have ... he could have begun in metalworking, he could have begun in many
things in 1887 at the Working Men's College.
And, Lex Lasry, did he get a fair trial?
Well, Jon, that's been debated now for a long time and of course for lawyers in the modern
day looking at Ned Kelly's trial the idea that a *** trial can be conducted in a day
and a bit and be fair is almost beyond comprehension and of course he was represented
by a barrister who'd never done a criminal trial before, who was sent up here to get
an adjournment so that someone with some experience could run the case for him
and of course Redmond Barry declined the adjournment and made the case run.
No, it wasn't a fair trial.
Well we'll see exactly whether or not the outcome could ever have been different as we resume
our discussion about Ned Kelly, Better Read Than Dead, and may education have made a difference
to Ned Kelly on Channel 31 at Federation Square and here at the
Melbourne Magistrates' Court in just a moment.