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My name is Pete Radcliff and today on
Sunday August 17th I'm interviewing Elizabeth Tsurkov, project director
at the Israeli NGO, hotline for refugees and migrants and a prominent activist as
well
in the anti-war movement and the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza
First of all Elizabeth
could you just tell us something about your campaigning work
So the hotline for refugees and migrants was established in 1998 at
the time
it dealt mostly with migrant workers who
either came here on tourist visas and overstayed them or people who were invited
into Israel to replace Palestinian workers
and they were, and still are treated this simply as kind of
working hands. People who are denied most basic rights
Being a migrant worker here even for five, ten years does not guarantee
you citizenship at any point.
you are expected to leave once you're not needed anymore
Then when the wave of
African asylum-seekers began arriving in Israel in about 2005 2006
And until now they became the
our largest focus. Asylum seekers in Israel unlike any other Western
countries
are detained indefinitely in the desert camp
called Holot
They are pressured in those detention facilities to
leave Israel - to agree to leave because deporting them
would be illegal- it would be against Israeli law and international law
so what Israel does instead is lock people up indefinitely
and then tell them to - pressure them to
sign documents saying they are leaving willingly
and at the same time Israel's asylum system, the system that examines
refugee claims is extremely unfair we have the lowest recognition rate
of refugees compared to anywhere in the western world
only 0.15 asylum requests are
accepted everything else is denied now this is compared for example in the US
it's 55 percent
The populations that we're dealing with here are mainly Eritreans and Sudanese
who are fleeing persecution
prolonged basically endless
slavery service for the regime of Eritrea
the genocide in Darfur etc
another group that we help are human trafficking victims
We were among the groups that basically
led to their almost complete and elimination of human trafficking for sex
work in Israel
Israel used to used to be a hub for human trafficking
thousands of women would be trafficked into Israel each year
Now this phenomenon has been abolished
But we're still dealing with people who've been trafficked into Israel for
the purpose of work that isn't sex work
so that's another group it we focus on
Could I ask for your observations of the anti-war movement
in Israel and how can it turn round the situation where
right-wing nationalist even racist ideas seem to be deeply entrenched
well that's a good question
I I honestly I
don't feel too hopeful the in israel there's a difference between being
anti-war and being pro-peace
Anti-war is something that I
is almost entirely - the protests the
you know, the discourse comes mostly from
non-Zionist Israelis
whereas the pro-peace campus is much larger
but the pro-peace camp usually stays mostly silent during
during wars because no one wants to criticise the government during the time of war
No-one want to criticise
the idea of soldiers during the time of war
and the result is that the anti-war movement is quite small
and is very much seen as a kind of group of traitors
our voices
are not presented in the mainstream media
except in a way to kinda ridicule us to show that there are crazies on both
sides
so we definitely face
a very very significant challenge because we're a small group
whereas the forces against us are
much larger and enjoy much better access to centers of power to the
government, to the Education Ministry
The educational system in Israel produces this cadre of
well militaristic and nationalistic kids
and they have much better access to mainstream media
and mainstream media is much more sympathetic to their views
so we're definitely facing an uphill battle here in Israel
Surprisingly and fortunately over the last two days it looks like the Israeli government
may enter into serious negotiations as well as Hamas call off their attacks
indefinitely how so do you think these negotiations will go
and is this only buying time for Netanyahu
Can the anti-war movement in Israel be able to exploit these problems
well I think the negotiations right now
it's really hard to tell where they will be leading us I'm sure that
Israel will never allow kind of seaport or an airport to be built in
Gaza while it's under
Hamas control. This is something that is unacceptable to
ninety-nine point nine percent of Israeli Jews in
Israel and it will just not happen
I think that all the issues in the agreement that
appears to be shaping up right now - all the issues that are being deferred
basically
Israel hopes to kind of
make them go away with time. Israel for example in 2005
and in an agreement that brought the EU into the crossing between
between Egypt and
and Gaza. Israel committed itself to helping
allowing aid to
enter Gaza to allow the rebuilding
of the seaport. It never happened so Israel's hoping
to do the same this time to I
the anti-war movement definitely has a role here
on it to try and show Israelis
that we are not
we are in a kind of a tough position because the anti-war movement basically
supports
the demands made by Hamas to this does she just such a
I'll and right now when we call for it
are it appears as if we're are siding with Hamas
and it's absolutely not the case we're for the Palestinian people
and we want them to live and
have access to Israel - access to the outside world so that they can trade
with Israel and the West Bank et cetera and
the result is that the voices that are coming out
right now, kind of
criticizing the agreement are mostly people more kind of
more kind of to the Zionist left who are saying
look at what you are doing
you are showing the Palestinians once again that what is working is force
Israel refused to negotiate to lift the siege while there was no war
now that there is war
israel's now looking to expand I'll be fishing area
Israel is willing to, at least on paper, consider opening a seaport
are so and I agree with this criticism Israel clearly shows to Palestinians
and this is the prevalent view among Palestinians
that what Israel understands is only force and to be honest
I think its true unfortunately when
Mahmoud Abbas with other Palestinian leaders say -
make moderate statements and combat militant groups operating in their territories
they're ignored -whereas when Hamas kidnap so
soldiers when Hamas
lobbed rockets at Israel then suddenly we're willing to talk
and negotiate and you can work
Some support the call here for a total boycott of Israel - BDS
Others of us think that a general campaign on all things israeli
or campaign about boycotting all things all things Israeli will play into the hands of
both the Israeli right-wing
as well as the Jewish right-wing here. What do you think about the boycott
and if BDS is not the right thing to do what else can you suggest activists in the UK do?
well it's definitely a complex issue
one question is what I think
should be done and another question
is what
is the kind of morally
What is the thing that feels right in terms of morals but may not
necessarily be the smartest thing
I think I first of all that
all goods produced in settlements on stolen land needs to
needs to be boycotted and this is something that is definitely happening
in Europe
I and I hope that this continues and expeands now
as for the BDS
it's made up of certain you know the boycott, divestments and the
sanctions
I don't see sanctions happening
anytime soon against Israel it would
you know to be sanctions
the sanctions are something that is
very far from the current atmosphere
in the international community towards Israel. There's a lot of criticism
but sanctions is something that is
that I don't see happening anytime soon unfortunately
I think that for example
the arms embargo that the UK is kinda hinting that will do if
fighting is resumed. I think it's a clear moral stance
and I think it's a very good idea. Unfortunately most of the weapons that
we get from the US
and the US is not about to stop the shipments after Israel
I even though I think it's a it's a very very necessary step
The BDS calls for boycott not of all Israeli goods but of all Israeli goods that are
kind of connected to the occupation
The problem is that in some ways all Israeli firms
- unless they make a very significant effort
to not do so - they're connected to the occupation. For example bank's that
that serve all Israelis
offer mortgages to
to settlers who build their homes in settlements
So I personally think that
that it is very moral to
boycott Israeli goods that are tied to the occupation
goods that are produced in settlements
Now whether this is the smart thing to do
I'm not so sure about it because it can definitely trigger a reaction in Israel
that the whole world is against us everyone is anti-Semitic. We only have
only have ourselves to count on
This is a kinda reaction that we've seen many countries that have
been subjected to sanctions
on the other hand it could trigger a kind of rethinking
among the Israeli public and even if not a rethinking
a kind of finally
paying the price for
the occupation so
I think every person needs to do what feels right to them
I personally don't buy goods produced in settlements
when you live in Israel it's impossible to practice BDS
because I live here
If I applied BDS to my life I wouldn't be able to live here
but I think that
certain companies, for example companies that are involved with Israeli military
with all sorts of human rights violation they should be the first targets
of these kind of
massive boycotts because this I think will signal to the israeli
public
that the whole world is not against us. The world is against the occupation
whereas many other BDS targets
are simply companies that to Israelis feel that they are Israeli and you are
you are attacking us I'm the
boycott of just israel not other human rights violators in
anti-semitic are so I think I'm
I would urge people in the UK to first of all boycott firms and goods
and any other goods that have - you can judge for yourself by reading about
the company
and anyone could have serious connection to the Israeli occupation - to the Israeli military
Thanks for that , you have already answered this substantially but I wondered
how much is anti-semitism played by the Israeli government as being
the policy what they're up against the and the solidarity movement with the Palestinians
Definitely anti-semitism is presented as kinda
the reason Europe hates us
Not, you know, simply in opposition to
the fact that Israel is the only democracy to hold an entire nation under military rule
Now I myself think that anti-semitism definitely has a role
inside the Palestinian solidarity movement
we so it was see it in chants made by
supposedly pro-Palestine protesters that are in fact simply anti-semitic
we see it
in the way israel is singled out compared to other human rights violators
People who come out to protest against the war in Gaza for example don't come out
to protest against injustices elsewhere
so there's definitely a lot of hypocrisy. I don't deny that. But at the same time
I think that anyone who honestly cares about
Palestinians and wants
their lives to improve and wants the draconian military rule over them to end
I welcome them into my camp
I don't welcome people into my camp who are motivated not by love of
palestinians but by hatred of Israel or hatred of Jews
What is your assessment of the state of the Israeli labor movement
and its role,and potential role in anti-occupation and social justice struggles?
and do you have a view on the left of Histradut initiatives such as WAC-Ma'an?
So the labor movement in Israel the largest labor
organization is basically part of the state - the Histradut
they have absolutely no role in
the anti-occupation movement.
They don't even have a role in the struggle for labor rights in Israel to be honest
The strikes that they organize are mostly
and the agreements they reach following those strikes benefit mostly
the people inside the government who
already receive kind of receive hefty salaries
are they don't concern the people at the bottom
who work through private contractors
or people who are at the bottom and are just not earning much
on so this is an organization that is should be not concerned with labor
rights
I'm it's simply another tool of maintaining
the control owns the wealthy inside the government
the wealthy and the powerful. Now as a result because of the
the kinda leading organization
in Israel for supposedly labor rights because it's kinda
morally bankrupt. There are new initiatives the largest one of them is
Koach La Ovdim "Power to the workers"
they have collectively bargained
and unionized thousands of
people and they I think are a very very positive force.
Then all the people who lead the organizations are very clearly
or leftist and are against the occupation however
the organization itself does not
attend anti-war protests
does not kinda call for an end to the occupation. At least I haven't heard
anything like that
I still think that they're very positive force because they're actually helping
workers in Israel. Now the organization that you mention
WAC-Ma'an is some I'll
Hangover It's the kinda classic model
of a labor organization. It's a Jewish- Arab labor organization it's very
strongly anti-occupation
it participates in every anti-war protests
that I think it's a very positive organization
The problem that is quite small I don't know how many people they're
representing - how many people they unionize but
I'm assuming that its hundreds not thousands
and even if thousands then its not
over 10,000 but they're a very positive organization
and I certainly urge you all to support them in any way you camn
Opponents of two states on both sides accuse you the other of being
insincere about 2 states
Are there links or any possibilities of links between anti-war
activists in Israel with palestinians
who are genuinely enthusiastic of 2 states?
And do you think such links can alleviate the fears in both communities
that currently undermine the campaign for two states?
So many of the people who are in the
anti-war movement are people who don't support the two-state solution. They
support a binational state- a binational democratic state
I personally don't think that that solution is realistic
in the short term. In the long run I definitely want a kind of world without borders.
and nations but I think right now if you put two nations that hate each other
The palestinians for a very good reason. Israelis because
to justify the occupation to ourselves
all palestinians are kinda presented as dangerous and
have kinda been a very kind of racist caricatured way
There are people on both sides who desperately want the two-state solution
In fact polls show consistently that most Israelis
support a two-state solution and most Palestinians support the two-state solution
The problem is that on both sides
the governments have ...I mean in Israel the government convinced israelis that the other side
is not interested in peace
on the present all sorts of claims that they've rejected
very generous offers that we've made etc.
Although the the offers were not generous and were very very far
from the minimum demands of the Palestinians - which are the kind of
a state within the 67 borders and with slight changes to Borders
And the Palestinians who support peace honestly
have every reason to feel that
Israeli don't want peace
and that the government doesn't want peace I mean
Netanyahu has been dragging his feet. He's the only prime minister
basically gave up on the idea of
reaching peace with the Palestinians in the last two decades
and is instead kind of just trying to manage the conflict
until we don't know what.
Basically just preserving the status quo so the problem is that people on both sides
who support this two-state solution feel that it's not achievable
in the short - in the short run and what
people like myself try to do is convince people on the Israeli side that peace
is possible that we do have a partner in peace. For example the new
kinda reconciliation government between Fatah and Hamas
adopted a kind of very moderate stance - supporting negotiations with Israel
And we definitely try to show that to people. The problem is the Israeli government
treated this government as a kind of way to officially end negotiations
and deflect international pressure from negotiations, by saying
"Ah this is a Hamas government" even though no Hamas members
are ministers in this government
Are there any links with any Palestinian organizations with the anti-war movement?
Definitely there's a a lot of work with Palestinian organizations
The problem is that
and the actual Palestinian activists within those organizations
the problem is that due to the restrictions on movement
Israelis and Palestinians are really really separated
You know the West Bank, it's very hard for Palestinians to get permits
into Israel and anyone who was kinda critical of the Israeli government
overly critical of it, just won't get a permit.
So we see this kind of
cooperation mostly in protest in the West Bank to which
Israelis travel and enter areas,
illegally basically, to protest
with their fellow, with the Palestinians
against the occupation. We see it really on a weekly basis
Great okay are there any further thoughts you'd like to share with us today
Well I think - I first of all I'd like to thank everyone who came
and listened to my talk I think
that Israel is getting away with
what it's doing to the Palestinians mostly
because the vast majority of people in the world are simply unaware
and aren't interested in the issue.
And I honestly think that if there is international pressure on Israel
it doesn't even need to be, you know, serious sanctions
even initial steps
even embargoes, even steps like recalling ambassadors
even serious kinda statements that are backed up with
kinda threats for further action can
pressure the Israeli government into ending the occupation
because the anti-war movement in Israel is weak
and because the pro-peace camp
many people support peace feel that it's not achievable
in the short term. There is no pressure on the Israeli government from within
there's no significant pressure on the Israeli government from within to end
the occupation
So unless Israeli society changes and we're definitely working on back
We really need help from the people around the world
to pressure their governments into pressuring our government to end the
occupation
otherwise I see this continuing, and the demographic trends inside Israel,
are not, are not making me optimistic
Young Israelis - polls consistently show that
young Israelis are much more racist and much more nationalistic then older people.
Polls consistently show that the sectors in Israeli society that are growing the fastest the ultra-orthodox
are not pro-peace. They're not interested in it at all.
so we definitely need pressure from
outside to force the government to
end the occupation to be - to stop being - the only kinda supposed democracy
to still enforce military rule over an entire nation that millions of people
Well thank you very much Elizabeth Tsurkov who as I said is projects director
of the Israeli NGO "Hotline for Refugees and Migrants" thank you very much, Elizabeth.