Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
>> THE RIO GRANDE IS THE LIFE BLOOD OF NEW MEXICO BUT IT IS
A VASTLY DIFFERENT BODY OF WATER THAN IT WAS BEFORE THE
EUROPEANS ARRIVED. OVER THE YEARS, WE HAVE
DIVERTED IT, DAMMED IT, CHANNELIZED IT AND CURSED IT
FOR TOO MUCH OR TOO LITTLE WATER.
THE BOOK "REINING IN THE RIO GRANDE" EXPLORES HOW THE RIVER
HAS SHAPED HUMAN SOCIETY IN THE SOUTHWEST AND THE WAY
HUMANS HAVE CHANGED THE RIVER FOREVER.
NMIF PRODUCER MEGAN KAMERICK SAT DOWN TO TWO OF THE BOOKS'
THREE AUTHORS AND TALKED ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE RIO GRANDE
AND WHAT IS NEXT FOR THE ICONIC RIVER.
>> I AM HERE WITH FRED PHILLIPS AND EMLEN HALL,
CO-AUTHORS OF "REINING IN THE RIO GRANDE," ALONG WITH MARY
BLACK. AND FRED YOU'RE A HYDROLOGIST
AT NEW MEXICO TECH. EM, YOU'RE A PROFESSOR OF LAW
AT UNM, AND, EM, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.
IN THE BOOK WE LEARN WHEN DON JUAN ONATE AND HIS MEN FIRST
SAW THE RIO GRANDE IN 1598, THEY CAME TO CONQUER NEW
MEXICO, WHAT DID IT LOOK LIKE? >> IT WAS A WILD, HARD RUNNING
RIVER. THEY HAD TROUBLE CROSSING IT.
>> THEY LOST HORSES. >> THEY LOST HORSES.
IT WAS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LOOKING RIVER THAN CERTAINLY
THE ONE WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE THE MONSOON SEASON CAME THIS
YEAR. >> IT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM
WHAT WE HAVE TODAY. >> EVERYTHING ABOUT IT IS
DIFFERENT. THE FLOWS ARE DIFFERENT.
THE CHANNELS ARE DIFFERENT. THE ANIMALS IN THE RIVER ARE
DIFFERENT, EVERYTHING ABOUT IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT
IT IS TODAY. >> FRED, I WANT TO ASK YOU,
UNDER PUEBLO SOCIETIES, THE FIRST ONES HERE AND EARLY
HISPANIC SETTLEMENTS, THE WATER IN THE RIO GRANDE WAS
USED AS A COMMUNITY RESOURCE. THAT CHANGED RADICALLY WITH
THE ENTRY OF THE AMERICANS IN 1847.
THERE WAS ALMOST THIS MESSIANIC IMPERATIVE TO MAKE
THE DESERT BLOOM, FOLLOWED BY WHAT DEGREES OF THE GUILDED
AGE. THAT LED TO MASSIVE RESOURCES
INCLUDING USE OF RESOURCES, LOGGING, MASS GRAZING.
WHAT IMPACT DID THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY HAVE ON THE RIVER?
>> WELL, THE IMPACT ON THE RIVER WAS AMAZING IN ITS
SEVERITY, ACTUALLY. THE BASIC CYCLE THAT WENT ON
WAS DUE TO OVERGRAZING AND LOGGING.
THERE WAS A LARGE AMOUNT OF SOIL EROSION AND THE AMOUNT OF
RUNOFF INCREASED AND THAT SEDIMENT WAS FLUSHED INTO THE
RIO GRANDE WHERE IT FILLED UP THE BED OF THE RIO GRANDE AND
THERE ARE TOWNS THAT WERE FORMERLY CLOSE TO THE RIO
GRANDE NEAR ALBUQUERQUE THAT ARE NOW BURIED UNDER 10 OR
20 FEET OF SEDIMENT. THE WATER FLOODED FIELDS, IT
SEEPED OUT OF THE RIVER BED AND SALINIZED THE FIELDS.
IT REALLY DEVASTATED THE WHOLE AGRICULTURAL ECONOMY AND THE
TOWNS THAT WERE CLOSE TO THE RIO GRANDE.
>> THAT WAS JUST THE START OF MANY, MANY CHANGES.
>> THAT IS CORRECT. >> THAT CAME TO THE RIVER AND
THERE WAS EVEN THIS IDEA THAT RIVER WATER NOT USED BY
HUMANS, THAT ACTUALLY MADE IT TO THE GULF OF MEXICO, WAS
LOST. >> THAT IS CORRECT.
SO, ANY WATER THAT WAS NOT DIVERTED FROM THE RIVER AND
USED FOR AGRICULTURE OR SOMETHING LIKE THIS WAS
CONSIDERED TO BE WASTED. >> THAT IS QUITE A DIFFERENT
FRAME OF MIND FROM WHAT WE HAVE TODAY.
IT IS KIND OF INTERESTING TO REALIZE THAT.
>> WE ARE IN MANY WAYS STRUGGLING AGAINST THIS LEGACY
WHERE THE RIVER HAD BEEN SIMPLY VIEWED AS A CONDUIT FOR
WATER TO GET TO AGRICULTURAL AND OTHER USES AND IF IT
TOTALLY DRIED UP, SO LONG AS THE WATER GOT TO WHERE IT
NEEDED TO, THAT WAS FINE. AND NOW THE IDEA OF HAVING A
RIVER THAT IS JUST A RIBBON OF SAND WITH NO ECOSYSTEM, NO
VEGETATION, IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK MOST PEOPLE REALLY
DON'T WANT TO SEE. >> EM, I WANT TO TURN TO YOU
FOR A MOMENT. THERE WAS A TURNING POINT IN
SOME OF THESE HUGE CHANGES THAT TOOK PLACE LIKE IN THE
LATE 19TH CENTURY. NATHAN BOYD WAS A MAN WHO
MIGHT HAVE CONTROLLED THE ENTIRE RIVER BY CREATING A DAM
AT ELEPHANT BUTTE AND CHARGING EXORBITANT PRICES FOR WATER,
BUT WITH THE RISE OF TEDDY ROOSEVELT WITH THE
PROGRESSIVES, THERE SEEMED TO BE A SHIFT AT THAT POINT BACK
TO THE IDEA THAT THIS IS A COMMUNAL RESOURCE.
A NEW BUREAU OF RECLAMATION WOULD CREATE A MODERN
DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM. A NEW FOREST SERVICE WOULD
REGULATE LOGGING AND GRAZING. BUT, HUMANS RATHER THAN
ENVIRONMENT AND HABITAT SEEM TO BE -- EVEN IN THAT
SCENARIO, THEY ARE STILL THE MOST IMPORTANT USERS.
>> YEAH, I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
THEY WERE GOING TO USE PUBLIC TECHNOLOGY, NOT PRIVATE, WHICH
IS NATHAN BOYD WAS A PRIVATE EFFORT TO DEVELOP THE RIVER.
THEY WERE GOING TO DO THAT PUBLICLY.
THE VALUES ASSOCIATED WITH THE PUBLIC USES HADN'T CHANGED
THAT. IT NEVER REALLY TOOK HOLD IN
NEW MEXICO SO MUCH AS IN A PLACE LIKE MONTANA WHERE THE
BEST RIVER HAD NO WATER IN IT AT ALL.
BECAUSE ALL THE WATER WAS BEING PUT TO BENEFICIAL USE
FOR HUMANS AND THERE IS STILL THAT UNDERLYING DRIVE TO WATER
TECHNOLOGY IN THE WESTERN UNITED STATES.
>> TALK ABOUT BENEFICIAL USE. YOU TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE
BOOK. >> BENEFICIAL USE.
>> OR THE CONCEPT OF IT. >> THE CONCEPT OF IT WAS STEVE
REYNOLDS, WHICH WAS THIS IS A NATURAL RESOURCE THAT WAS BEST
USED FOR HUMAN PRODUCTIVITY. AND YOU HAD TO MARSHAL IT
CAREFULLY AND SKILLFULLY AND USE IT WISELY BUT YOU HAD TO
USE IT BECAUSE THE TRICK TO BENEFICIAL USE IS USE.
WHAT THEY MEANT BY USE WAS USE FOR HUMAN KIND.
>> STEVE REYNOLDS, OF COURSE, WAS LEGENDARY STATE ENGINEER
CAME IN THE MID 50'S, HERE FOR 30 YEARS.
>> HE WAS HERE UNTIL 1993 AND HE WAS A BRILLIANT MAN AND
VERY ARTICULATE AND VERY FUNNY BUT UNDERNEATH IT ALL, YOU
KNOW, HE HAD THIS SENSE THAT HE KNEW WHAT BENEFICIAL USE
MEANT AND BENEFICIAL USE WAS WATER WAS, ESPECIALLY IN
DESERTS, WAS TO BE USED FOR HUMAN PRODUCTIVITY.
>> I AM GOING TO COME BACK TO HIM IN A MINUTE BUT, FRED, I
WANT TO TALK TO YOU FOR A MINUTE BACK TOWARDS THE
BEGINNING OF 19TH CENTURY, THE END CODE WAS CREATED.
THE IDEA OF OVERALL FRAMEWORK FOR WATER DISTRIBUTION AND
USE, THAT INCLUDED THE IDEA OF PRIORITY IN TERMS OF WHO GETS
WATER. DESCRIBE THAT AND WHAT IMPACT
THAT HAS HAD TO THE PRESENT DAY.
>> THERE IS TWO USES OF PRIORITY ACTUALLY.
ONE IS THE IDEA THAT THE OLDER RIGHT IS THE STRONGER OR
BETTER RIGHT. SO IF YOU STARTED USING THE
RIVER IN 1850 THEN YOU HAVE A BETTER RIGHT THAN SOMEBODY WHO
STARTED USING IT IN 1900. THERE IS ALSO USE, THOUGH, IN
TERMS OF PRIORITY ADMINISTRATION.
WHICH MEANS THAT IF THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF WATER, THE PEOPLE
WHO HAVE THE OLDEST WATER RIGHTS CAN MAKE A CALL ON THE
RIVER. THEY CAN SAY, WE WANT THE USES
TO BE CURTAILED AND THEN -- THE IDEA IS THE STATE ENGINEER
IS SUPPOSED TO START CUTTING PEOPLE OFF, GOING FROM MOST
JUNIOR USERS UP UNTIL THE MOST SENIOR, UNTIL THE MOST SENIOR
USER GETS THEIR FULL RIGHT AND EVERYBODY GETS NOTHING.
>> THIS IS STILL IN ACTION. >> STILL IN THE STATE
CONSTITUTION. >> WE SAW THAT DURING THE
SUMMER, I THINK, A FEW TIMES WHERE PEOPLE MADE PRIORITY
CALLS. >> THEY ATTEMPTED TO BUT IN
FACT NONE OF THEM ACTUALLY CAME ABOUT.
AT LEAST THE ONES THAT WERE PUBLICIZED AND THAT IS BECAUSE
PRIORITY ADMINISTRATION HAS PROVEN VERY DIFFICULT TO
ACTUALLY IMPLEMENT. >> SO, I WANT TO GO BACK TO
ELEPHANT BUTTE FOR A MINUTE THINKING ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE
WHEN IT WAS CREATED, NOT BY NATHAN BOYD BUT BY THE FEDS,
IT COMPLETELY CHANGED THE AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITY AND IT
WASN'T MEANT -- THERE ARE A LOT OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES
IN THIS BOOK ALL OVER THE PLACE.
IT WAS SUPPOSE TO HELP SMALL FARMERS BUT A LOT OF SMALLER
HISPANIC FARMERS WENT AWAY AND WE SAW BIG FARMING OPERATIONS
TAKING PLACE, MOSTLY OWNED BY ANGLOS.
WHY DID THAT HAPPEN? >> YES, I MEAN IT REALLY SORT
OF HELPED THE MEDIUM SIZE FARMER, YOU MIGHT SAY, THE
MOST. BUT THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE
POORER FARMERS WHO USED TRADITIONAL AGRICULTURE REALLY
DID NOT HAVE A MONETARY ECONOMY.
THEY LIVED IN THE BARTER ECONOMY AND A SUBSISTENCE
ECONOMY AND THEREFORE THEY COULDN'T PAY THE COST AND FEES
THAT WERE ASSOCIATED WITH BEING ABLE --
>> MIRACLE OF ENGINEERING. >> THAT IS RIGHT.
SO, THOSE ESSENTIALLY DROVE THEM OFF THE LAND.
>> THE WHOLE -- I REALIZE WHILE READING YOUR BOOK THAT
YOU CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY OF NEW MEXICO WITHOUT
UNDERSTANDING HISTORY OF WATER IN THE RIVER.
I HAD MANY EPIPHANIES. >> THE SAME THING HAPPENED IN
MIDDLE RIO GRANDE RIGHT AFTER THAT, THAT IS UPSTREAM FROM
ELEPHANT BUTTE WHEN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE CONSERVANCY
DISTRICT, WHICH RESCUED AGRICULTURE IN THE VALLEY, BUT
AT A COST THAT MANY HISPANIC FARMERS COULDN'T AFFORD AND IT
TRANSFORMED THE NORTH VALLEY, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE SAME WAY
THAT THE SOUTH OF ELEPHANT BUTTE WAS TRANSFORMED AS WELL.
>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO STEVE REYNOLDS FOR A MINUTE SINCE
WE'RE TALKING PEOPLE ENGINEERING THINGS.
HE LIVED LARGE IN THIS TALE; ENGINEER FOR 30 YEARS STARTING
IN MID 1950'S. HE, ALONG WITH SEVERAL
COLLEAGUES, IS THE ONE WHO BASICALLY DEMONSTRATED THAT
WHEN YOU'RE PUMPING GROUNDWATER FROM WELLS, WHICH
WAS SEEN AS THE ALTERNATIVE TO TAKING RIVER WATER, YOU
ACTUALLY ARE TAPPING ALL THE SAME WATERSHED, WHICH I THINK
HAD NOT -- WAS QUITE A BREAKTHROUGH.
>> YEAH. NEW MEXICO IS THE FIRST PLACE
TO DO THAT AND A MAN NAMED CV TIES LED THAT BUT NEW MEXICO
TECH AS WELL LED THE CALCULATION OF WHAT THE EFFECT
OF PUMPING GROUNDWATER WOULD BE ON AN INTERCONNECTED RIVER.
>> WHAT WAS THE IMPACT OF THAT REALIZATION?
>> THE IMPACT WAS THAT THE STATE ENGINEER REALIZED THAT
HE COULD NOT LIVE WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE RIO GRANDE
COMPACT WHICH YOU HAD TO DO AS A FEDERAL COMPACT SO THERE WAS
NO CHOICE ON IT. HE COULDN'T MAKE THAT WORK,
IF HE DID NOT ALSO CONTROL AND CURTAIL GROUNDWATER PUMPING.
AND, SO, HE SET UP A SYSTEM BY WHICH PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO
DRILL WELLS COULD CALCULATE WHAT THE EFFECT OF THEIR
GROUNDWATER PUMPING WOULD BE ON THE RIVER AND THEN THEY HAD
TO BUY SURFACE WATER RIGHTS TO COMPENSATE FOR THAT.
AND, SO THAT WAS ACTUALLY REASONABLY SUCCESSFUL IN
PREVENTING NEW MEXICO FROM GOING INTO WATER DEBT UNDER
THE RIO GRANDE COMPACT. >> BUT THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY
GOING TO KEEP WORKING AS WE GO FORWARD.
>> NEW MEXICO HAS NOT BEEN IN WATER DEBT FOR ABOUT 40 YEARS,
I BELIEVE. IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME.
SO, THE STATE ENGINEER'S OFFICE HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN
MANAGING IT. HOW THINGS WILL GO IN THE
FUTURE UNDER THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND INCREASED
POPULATION IS HARD TO SAY. IT WILL CERTAINLY TAKE A VERY
ACTIVE MANAGEMENT BY THE STATE TO KEEP US IN THE BLACK.
>> AND, LET ME ASK YOU, IS THAT HAPPENING?
DO WE HAVE A PLAN GOING FORWARD TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT
THINGS LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE AND WHAT MIGHT BE A NEW NORMAL?
YOU TALK ABOUT A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS IN THE WORKS
BUT NOTHING IS PERFECT. >> CERTAINLY, THE STATE
ENGINEER AND THE STATE GOVERNMENT IS LOOKING INTO
THESE ISSUES. I AM NOT AWARE THAT THERE IS A
FORMAL PLAN THAT SAY PROJECT WHAT WATER DELIVERIES ARE
GOING TO BE 20, 40, 100 YEARS INTO THE FUTURE AND EXPLICITLY
TRIES TO TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT BUT IT IS MOST
CERTAINLY ON THEIR RADAR AND I THINK THAT KIND OF PLAN IS
PROBABLY GOING TO BE COMING IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
>> AND, OF COURSE, STEVE REYNOLDS IS THE ONE THAT
STARTED THIS WHOLE SAN JUAN CHAMA PROJECT WHERE WE TAPPED
INTO THE COLORADO BASIN TO SUPPLEMENT THE RIO GRANDE.
WE FOUND WATER, MUCH AS THAT IS POSSIBLE.
IS THAT EVER POSSIBLE AGAIN? >> MOST PEOPLE SAY NO.
THERE ARE THINGS GOING ON RIGHT NOW THAT ARE ESSENTIALLY
EFFORTS TO DEVELOP SUPPLEMENTAL -- ADDITIONAL
SUPPLEMENTAL SUPPLIES. THAT IS BEYOND DESALINIZATION,
BRINGING THE WATER FROM THE OCEAN OR FROM THE GULF OF
CORTEZ, YOU KNOW. THIS IS IN OUR REGION AND I'LL
JUST MENTION TWO OF THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE SORT OF ON
THE HORIZON, BUT VERY CONTROVERSIAL.
ONE IS THE PLAN TO PUMP WATER OUT OF THE PLAINS OF ST.
AUGUSTINE DOWN IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO AND DUMP THAT
GROUNDWATER INTO THE RIO GRANDE AND GET A SUPPLEMENTAL
SUPPLY THAT WAY. >> AREN'T WE IN A BATTLE OVER
THAT. >> WE ARE IN COURT NOW AND IT
IS INTERESTING THE WAY IT HAS WORKED.
I SHOW YOU WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE SPECIAL WATER.
THIS IS AN ITALIAN AND SWISS COMPANY TRYING TO DEVELOP
THESE RESOURCES WHICH ARE WORTH A LOT OF MONEY TO
CERTAIN PEOPLE, MOSTLY THE CITY OF RIO RANCHO, WHICH IS
IN -- NOT IN GOOD SHAPE IN THE LONG RUN WITH RESPECT TO ITS
ABILITY TO ACCOUNT FOR ITS GROUND WATER PUMPING.
SO, THEY ARE INTERESTED IN THE PLAINS OF ST. AUGUSTINE.
LET ME TELL YOU ONE OTHER WHICH IS THE NAVAJO NATION
WEST OF THE CONTINENTAL DIVIDE MAY HAVE THE KIND OF SURPLUS
WATER THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE WHO NEEDED IT IN THE
RIO GRANDE IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE SAN JUAN CHAMA
PROJECT WAS AVAILABLE TO THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE CONSERVANCY
DISTRICT AND THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE NOT RIO RANCHO.
>> UNFORTUNATELY OUR TIME IS UP BUT I WANT TO TELL YOU
BOTH, IT IS A FASCINATING BOOK, JUST SCRATCHED THE
SURFACE OF WHAT YOU GO INTO SO I HIGHLY RECOMMEND ANYONE
INTERESTED IN HISTORY OF NEW MEXICO, OR THE FUTURE OF NEW
MEXICO, TO READ IT BUT I REALLY WANT TO THANK YOU BOTH
FOR JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT THIS.
>> CERTAINLY, THANK YOU.