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>> WHILE IT'S PROBABLY TRUE THAT
THE POOR WILL ALWAYS BE WITH US,
THERE ARE SOME PRACTICAL STEPS
THAT CAN BE TAKEN TO HELP THE
POOREST OF THE POOR.
WE'LL TALK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE
IDEAS NEXT ON
"GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES."
>> THIS PROGRAM IS MADE POSSIBLE
IN PART BY FUNDING FROM...
THIS IS "GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES,"
WITH PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING
COMMENTATOR JOHN BERSIA.
>> WELCOME TO
"GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES."
THE IDEA OF ENDING POVERTY
AROUND THE WORLD SOUNDS LIKE A
PIPE DREAM, BUT IS IT?
EVEN THOUGH WE SEE PLENTY OF
EXAMPLES OF POVERTY IN VARIOUS
PARTS OF THE WORLD,
GLOBALIZATION AND EXPORTATION OF
JOBS FROM DEVELOPED NATIONS HAVE
ACTUALLY HELPED MILLIONS AROUND
THE WORLD ESCAPE POVERTY IN THE
LAST DECADE.
BUT FOR THOSE UNTOUCHED BY
DEVELOPMENT, THEIR CONDITION CAN
BE CALLED "ULTRA-POVERTY," AND
THEIR PLIGHT CALLS OUT FOR
ATTENTION.
OUR GUEST TODAY,
STEPHEN C. SMITH, IS AN EXPERT
ON THEIR CONDITION.
HIS BOOK "ENDING GLOBAL POVERTY"
LOOKS AT MICROECONOMIC POVERTY
TRAPS THAT CAN BE ADDRESSED AT A
VERY LOCAL LEVEL.
STEPHEN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.
>> THANKS, JOHN.
IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.
>> GLOBAL POVERTY SOUNDS LIKE
SUCH A MASSIVE TOPIC, AND YOU
SEE, AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL, A
SOLUTION.
HOW CAN YOU TALK OPTIMISTICALLY
ABOUT ENDING IT?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT THE MOST
IMPORTANT THING IS TO REALIZE
HOW MUCH PROGRESS WE'VE MADE, SO
THAT IT'S TRUE THAT THE SCOPE OF
POVERTY IS VERY DEEP.
IT'S NOT JUST INCOME.
IT'S COMPOUNDING FACTORS THAT
ALSO KEEP INCOME LOW, BUT ALSO
KEEP THE QUALITY OF LIFE POOR,
WHETHER IT'S HEALTH AND
NUTRITION PROBLEMS, EDUCATION,
EXCLUSION OF PEOPLE,
DISEMPOWERMENT, IF YOU WANT TO
SAY, OF PEOPLE.
SO, THE SCOPE OF PROBLEMS IS
VERY GREAT, BUT THE PROGRESS HAS
BEEN GREAT.
OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, WE HAVE
GONE FROM ABOUT 40% OF THE
WORLD'S POPULATION IN EXTREME
POVERTY TO ABOUT HALF THAT -- TO
ABOUT 20%.
OF COURSE, POPULATION HAS GROWN
IN THOSE 30 YEARS, ALSO, BUT
WE'RE ACTUALLY GETTING TO THE
POINT, ALSO, WHERE THE NUMBER OF
THOSE LIVING IN POVERTY IS
FALLING.
SO, IT'S THE GOOD EXPERIENCE
WE'VE HAD WITH REDUCING POVERTY
IN THE LAST 30 YEARS THAT CAN
MAKE US VERY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT
COMPLETING THE JOB AND ENDING
POVERTY.
>> IS THERE ONE REASON THAT HAS
BEEN A BIG PART OF THIS, OR CAN
WE ATTRIBUTE THE PROGRESS TO A
MULTITUDE OF FACTORS?
>> I THINK IT HAS TO BE SEEN AS
A MULTITUDE OF FACTORS.
GLOBALIZATION OFTEN GETS A VERY
BAD NAME, AND THERE HAVE BEEN
ABUSES ALONG THE WAY, NO DOUBT
ABOUT IT, BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN
BANGLADESH, DESPITE ABUSES AND
DESPITE PROBLEMS, A MILLION
WOMEN HAVE HAD OPPORTUNITIES TO
GO FROM DESPERATELY POOR, RURAL
CIRCUMSTANCES, WORKING AS
HOUSEMAIDS IN EXPLOITIVE
SITUATIONS, AND GOTTEN WORK IN
TEXTILE FACTORIES, ENABLING THEM
TO SEND MONEY TO THEIR FAMILIES
TO BUILD UP SAVINGS OF THEIR
OWN.
SIMILAR SITUATIONS ELSEWHERE --
THERE USED TO BE HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF MORE PEOPLE LIVING
IN POVERTY IN CHINA THAN THERE
ARE NOW, BUT THAT'S NOT THE
WHOLE STORY.
GOVERNMENTS, INTERNATIONAL
AGENCIES, AND, IMPORTANTLY,
NON-GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS,
AS WELL, HAVE BEEN BUILDING UP
CAPABILITIES OF THE POOR,
TRANSFERRING WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT
PUBLIC HEALTH, HELPING PEOPLE
WITH LITERACY, BASIC EDUCATION,
AND SO ON.
SO, IT'S A CONFLUENCE OF SEVERAL
THINGS.
>> YOU MENTIONED GLOBALIZATION.
CAN YOU DEFINE GLOBALIZATION IN
THIS PARTICULAR CONTEXT?
>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT
TO SAY ECONOMIC GLOBALIZATION.
GLOBALIZATION MEANS MANY THINGS
TO MANY PEOPLE AND IS USED IN
MANY WAYS, SO ONE IS THAT THE
REST OF THE WORLD WATCHES
AMERICAN MOVIES, OR, NOW,
BOLLYWOOD MOVIES.
I SIMPLY MEAN GREATER
OPPORTUNITIES TO SELL YOUR
PRODUCTS TO THE REST OF THE
WORLD AND GREATER OPPORTUNITIES
TO HAVE FOREIGN INVESTORS, WHO
MIGHT KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THE
BUSINESS, COME AND INVEST AND
EMPLOY IN YOUR COUNTRY.
THAT'S THE MAIN FOCUS WHEN I USE
THAT TERM.
>> AND IS THIS A PROCESS WITHOUT
END?
GLOBALIZATION IN VARIOUS FORMS
HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A LONG
TIME, AND THEN WE SAW ITS
ACCELERATION IN THE LATTER PART
OF THE 20th CENTURY AND THEN A
BIT OF A STALL AFTER 9-11.
BUT IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CAN
STOP GLOBALIZATION, OR DO YOU
SEE IT AS JUST CONTINUING?
>> WELL, AS THE NAME SUGGESTS,
GLOBALIZATION SOUNDS LIKE A
PROCESS, AND IT IS.
YOU CAN'T REALLY SAY THAT IT'S
UNSTOPPABLE IN THE SENSE THAT
THERE WAS MORE GLOBALIZATION
BEFORE WORLD WAR I THAN THERE
WAS FOR SEVERAL DECADES AFTER IT
WITH THE WORLD WARS AND THE
DEPRESSION IN BETWEEN AND MORE
PROTECTIONIST POLICIES AFTER
WORLD WAR II AND SO ON, BUT
THERE ARE SOME VERY STRONG
FORCES OUT THERE ENCOURAGING
GLOBALIZATION OF WHICH
INFORMATION COMMUNICATION
TECHNOLOGIES IS A BIG ONE.
I MEAN, IT'S VERY HARD TO KEEP
INFORMATION FROM FLOWING ACROSS
COUNTRIES, AND IT'S VERY EASY
FOR COUNTRIES TO TRADE TOGETHER
WITH COSTS, ALSO, OF
TRANSPORTATION HAVING FALLEN.
SO, I THINK WE'LL SEE INCREASING
INTEGRATION, AND IT'S REALLY A
QUESTION OF GETTING THE MOST
BENEFIT OUT OF THAT FOR REDUCING
POVERTY.
>> TELL US ABOUT SOME OF THE
PLACES YOU VISITED WHERE YOU
FACED, YOU KNOW, OR OTHERS FACED
APPALLING CHALLENGES AND HOW
THEY WERE ABLE TO OVERCOME THEM.
>> ONE VERY TELLING EXAMPLE IS
BANGLADESH.
SO, WHEN I WAS A KID GROWING UP,
IT WAS CALLED THE "BASKET CASE
OF THE WORLD."
IT WAS THE POOREST COUNTRY IN
THE WORLD.
IT HAD A RAPIDLY GROWING
POPULATION.
IT HAD LOW PRODUCTIVITY IN
AGRICULTURE.
THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WERE
ILLITERATE.
THE FAMINE AND ITS AFTERMATH
WERE JUST GETTING AT -- TOUCHING
UPON THE EXTENT OF MALNUTRITION.
THE QUESTION WAS, "COULD THIS
COUNTRY EVER DEVELOP IN ITS
CIRCUMSTANCES?"
AND THE PROGRESS IT'S MADE IS
JUST TREMENDOUS.
IT'S MADE ENORMOUS PROGRESS IN
LOWERING THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE
LIVING AT LOW-INCOME LEVELS,
LITERACY HAS GROWN, AND, ALSO,
SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT WE
HOPE TO SEE IN THE PROCESS OF
DEVELOPMENT, LIKE IMPROVED
WOMEN'S EMPOWERMENT, IS VERY,
VERY VISIBLE IN BANGLADESH
TODAY, AND I THINK THAT SOME OF
THE FORCES WE TALKED ABOUT
BEFORE ARE AT PLAY THERE.
ONE THAT SHOULD NOT BE
OVERLOOKED IS THE ROLE THAT
NON-GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS
HAVE PLAYED.
THAT'S BEEN A SPECIAL FACTOR
THERE IN BANGLADESH.
GRAMEEN, WHICH DOES
MICROFINANCE CREDIT FOR SMALL
ENTREPRENEURS, IS ONE WELL-KNOWN
EXAMPLE.
B.R.A.C., WHICH WAS FORMALLY
KNOWN AS THE BANGLADESH RURAL
ADVANCEMENT COMMITTEE, IS A VERY
GOOD EXAMPLE OF GOING OUT TO THE
POOREST RURAL AREAS AND WORKING
WITH THE POOREST PEOPLE IN THOSE
AREAS, ESPECIALLY WOMEN IN THOSE
AREAS, AND HELPING THEM WITH A
PACKAGE OF THINGS THAT THEY NEED
TOGETHER TO GET OUT OF POVERTY
BECAUSE THESE PROBLEMS REINFORCE
EACH OTHER.
POOR HEALTH, POOR NUTRITION
MEANS YOU CAN'T MAKE MUCH USE OF
CREDIT.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS UGANDA, WHICH
STILL IS AMONG THE POORER
COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, SUFFERED
UNDER DICTATORSHIP GOING BACK TO
IDI AMIN, HAS HAD ONGOING CIVIL
WAR IN THE NORTH.
AND YOU'D WONDER HOW THIS
COUNTRY COULD EVER MAKE
PROGRESS.
SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE
HAVE TO DO TO HELP THE REMAINING
PEOPLE STILL IN POVERTY IS TO
DEAL WITH CIVIL WAR AND LOCAL
CONFLICT.
THEY'VE MADE GREAT PROGRESS
THERE.
SO, THAT, AS WE GET TO LOOKING
AT THE REMAINING POOREST PEOPLE,
WE HAVE TO LOOK AT CONFLICT,
FRAGILE-STATE AREAS, BUT FRAGILE
STATES LIKE UGANDA CAN ALSO MAKE
PROGRESS.
AND, AGAIN, WE SEE SOME OF THE
SAME FACTORS COMING TO PLAY --
FAMILY PLANNING, IMPROVED
PRODUCTIVITY, WE'RE FINALLY
BRINGING THE GREEN REVOLUTION TO
AFRICA ALL THESE MANY YEARS
LATER, NGOs, EXPORT
OPPORTUNITIES.
SO, IN THESE TWO
DESPERATELY POOR PLACES, I'VE
SEEN ENORMOUS PROGRESS.
>> WHAT IS THE MAGIC OF THE
APPROACH OF ORGANIZATIONS --
SUCH AS GRAMEEN -- THAT COME IN
AND WORK WITH PEOPLE IN A VERY
INDIVIDUALIZED WAY AND WITH
RELATIVELY SMALL AMOUNTS OF
MONEY, FOR THOSE WHO MAY NOT BE
FAMILIAR WITH THEIR APPROACH?
>> RIGHT.
SO, ONE OF THE MAIN PROBLEMS,
I'D START BY SAYING, OF THOSE
WHO ARE DESPERATELY POOR -- IT'S
NOT THAT THEY DON'T MAKE GREAT
EFFORTS TO GET OUT OF POVERTY,
BUT THEY'RE OFTEN STUCK IN
POVERTY TRAPS IN WHICH
CONDITIONS OF POVERTY NOW LEAD
TO FURTHER CONDITIONS OF POVERTY
IN THE FUTURE.
SO, A VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD
EXAMPLE IS AN UNDER-NUTRITION
TRAP.
SO, IF YOU HAVE TOO LITTLE
NUTRITION TO BE PRODUCTIVE
ENOUGH NOW TO MAKE ENOUGH MONEY
TO BUY BETTER AND MORE FOOD
TOMORROW TO BE MORE PRODUCTIVE
TOMORROW, YOU'RE STUCK IN A
TRAP.
TOO LITTLE PRODUCTIVITY, TOO
LITTLE INCOME, CAN'T BUY MORE
AND BETTER FOOD, STILL LOW
PRODUCTIVITY, STILL LOW INCOME.
SO, THAT'S ONE OF MANY POVERTY
TRAPS THE VERY POOR CAN FACE.
I TALK ABOUT 16 OF THEM IN THE
BOOK.
ANOTHER ONE GETS RIGHT TO THE
HEART AT WHAT GRAMEEN DOES,
WHICH IS A WORKING-CAPITAL TRAP.
SO MANY OF THE POOREST PEOPLE IN
THE WORLD, LACKING REGULAR JOBS
IN MOST CASES, DO WHATEVER THEY
CAN TO SURVIVE, AND A SIMPLE
EXAMPLE MIGHT BE CARRYING SOME
USED BLUE JEANS FROM DOOR TO
DOOR, TRYING TO MAKE A SALE.
AND A PROBLEM HERE, OF COURSE,
IS LOW FUNDS FOR INVENTORY.
YOU HAVE NO WORKING CAPITAL.
SO, YOU'RE CARRYING JUST A
HANDFUL OF COSTUME JEWELRY
AROUND, HOPING TO MAKE SOME FEW
SALES, BUT WITH JUST A SMALL
AMOUNT OF JEWELRY TO SELL OR
JUST A FEW BLUE JEANS TO TRY TO
SELL, THE CHANCE OF MAKING A
SALE -- THE RIGHT STYLE, THE
RIGHT PRICE, THE WEAR OF THE
FABRIC, WHAT SIZE, AND SO ON --
IS MAKING IT UNLIKELY THAT EVERY
HOUR YOU'LL HAVE EVEN ONE SALE.
SO, BY THE END OF THE DAY, YOU
HAVEN'T SOLD ENOUGH TO MAKE IT
POSSIBLE TO HAVE A BIGGER
INVENTORY THE NEXT DAY.
SO, ONE OF THE THINGS -- AND NOT
THE ONLY -- BUT ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT GROUPS LIKE GRAMEEN
ARE DOING IS BRINGING THE
CAPACITY TO TAKE SMALL LOANS TO
SUCH PEOPLE SO THAT, AMONG OTHER
THINGS, THEY CAN HAVE A BETTER
AND BIGGER INVENTORY SO THAT IN
THE COURSE OF A DAY, THEY CAN
MAKE MORE SALES AND MAKE ENOUGH
EXTRA MONEY TO REPAY THE LOAN
AND TO HAVE EXTRA AVAILABLE FOR
FOOD FOR THE FAMILY AND SO ON.
>> BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ALL
THE CONCERNS THAT LENDERS HAVE
IN THE UNITED STATES, FOR
EXAMPLE, ESPECIALLY WITH
INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY NOT HAVE THE
BEST CREDIT, WHY IS IT THAT
THESE MICRO-LOANS SUCCEED?
THEIR REPAYMENT RATE,
CONSISTENTLY, SEEMS TO BE VERY,
VERY HIGH.
>> YES.
OF COURSE THERE ARE SOME
EXCEPTIONS WHERE THERE ARE
PROBLEMS, BUT THE REPAYMENT RATE
IS VERY IMPRESSIVE.
WELL, I THINK THERE ARE
DIFFERENT REASONS FOR THIS.
WHEN THE MICROFINANCE
INSTITUTION IS QUITE WORRIED
ABOUT THIS, THEY OFTEN USE JOINT
LIABILITY.
THIS ISN'T ALWAYS THE CASE, BUT
IT'S VERY COMMON IN GETTING
STARTED.
SO, THE GRAMEEN BANK,
ORIGINALLY, WOULD MAKE A LOAN TO
FIVE WOMEN, AND THEY WOULD
ESSENTIALLY COSIGN EACH OTHER'S
LOANS, AND YOU WOULD SIGN ON TO
COSIGN ONLY WITH WOMEN THAT YOU
KNEW.
YOU KNEW THAT THESE PEOPLE WERE
LIKELY TO WORK HARD, WOULD BE
DETERMINED NOT TO FAIL, WERE
SMART, ENTREPRENEURIAL, AND, SO,
WHEN THEY ARE KIND OF SELECTING
EACH OTHER AS GOOD LENDING BETS,
THAT'S INFORMATION, RIGHT?
BUT THERE'S ALSO THE INCENTIVE
BECAUSE EVERYONE'S GOING TO
WATCH EACH OTHER TO MAKE SURE
THEY DON'T GO BANKRUPT SO, "I'M
NOT LEFT WITH THAT LIABILITY OF
REPAYING THEIR LOAN."
SO, THAT'S ONE WAY OF GETTING
THESE THINGS STARTED.
ANOTHER IS YOU HAVE NO OTHER
SOURCE OF CREDIT, SO IT'S NOT
LIKE YOU CAN MAX OUT ONE CREDIT
CARD AND GO GET ANOTHER.
THIS IS YOUR SOURCE OF CREDIT,
SO YOU REALLY WANT TO REPAY THIS
LOAN SO YOU CAN GET ANOTHER
LOAN.
>> HAVE YOU ENCOUNTERED ANY
SITUATIONS THAT SEEMED, TO YOU,
TO BE IMPOSSIBLE, AND HOW DO YOU
MAINTAIN YOUR OPTIMISM IN THE
FACE OF SUCH CONDITIONS?
>> AS WE GET TOWARD THE LAST
BILLION AND THEN HALF-BILLION
PEOPLE WHO ARE IN DESPERATE
PROBLEMS OF POVERTY, IN SOME
WAYS IT'S GETTING EASIER.
IN SOME WAYS IT'S GETTING
HARDER.
EASIER BECAUSE WE HAVE SO MANY
LESSONS WE CAN FOCUS ON THOSE
WHO REMAIN IN POVERTY, BUT
HARDER BECAUSE THEY'RE REMAINING
IN POVERTY BECAUSE THERE ARE
SOME SPECIAL PROBLEMS.
I THINK THAT ONE OF THE BIGGEST
ONES HAS TO DO WITH CONFLICT,
BUT I THINK WE'RE REALLY GOING
TO HAVE TO FOCUS ON CONDITIONS
IN WHICH, IN ADDITION TO ALL THE
OTHER PROBLEMS WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT -- ILLITERACY AND POOR
NUTRITION AND POOR HEALTH AND
JUST LOW INVESTMENT, LOW INCOME
POSSIBILITIES -- WE ALSO HAVE
THE STATE FRAGILITY, THE DANGER
OF VIOLENCE.
THAT'S A COMPOUNDING PROBLEM.
SO, IT'S ONE THING THAT YOU HAVE
MANY PROBLEMS THAT THE POOR FACE
AND OTHER MICRO-PROBLEMS THAT
YOU CAN GET AT, LIKE LOCAL
PROBLEMS OF POWER ABUSE.
IT CAN SOMETIMES GET
DISCOURAGING WHEN THE ENTIRE
ENVIRONMENT IS ONE OF FRAGILITY,
OF VIOLENCE, BUT WE'VE GOTTEN
PAST IT BEFORE.
SO, I REMAIN OPTIMISTIC EVEN IN
THESE VERY DIRE CIRCUMSTANCES.
>> AND YOU'VE TRAVELLED IN MANY
PARTS OF THE WORLD AS YOU
CONDUCT YOUR RESEARCH.
ARE YOU GENERALLY WELL-RECEIVED,
OR ARE THERE TIMES WHEN PEOPLE
ARE SKEPTICAL ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE
DOING AND WHY?
>> YOU KNOW, I'VE GENERALLY
FOUND MYSELF QUITE
WELL-RECEIVED.
JUST BEING FROM A DEVELOPED
COUNTRY SOMETIMES MAKES PEOPLE
OPTIMISTIC THAT YOU'RE THERE.
ONE THING THAT I WAS TAUGHT TO
DO VERY EARLY ON AND A LESSON
THAT I LEARNED, WHICH IS THAT
WHEN YOU GO TO A VILLAGE, YOU
DON'T JUST GO IN UNANNOUNCED AND
START TALKING WITH PEOPLE.
YOU FIRST PAY A COURTESY VISIT
TO THE LOCAL OFFICIALS.
>> AND THEY WOULD KNOW IN
ADVANCE THAT YOU'RE COMING
BECAUSE YOU WOULD'VE SET UP THE
MEETING, SO THEY HAVE LOTS OF
TIME TO PREPARE.
>> YES, USUALLY.
THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, OF COURSE,
WHERE OPPORTUNITIES COME UP THAT
YOU DIDN'T KNOW WERE THERE TO
SEE A PROGRAM OR TO GET A CLOSE
LOOK AT A PROBLEM.
I'VE HAD PRETTY GOOD LUCK IN
THIS, THOUGH I'M NOT SOMEONE TO
HAVE THROWN MYSELF INTO
HIGH-CONFLICT, VIOLENT AREAS.
THAT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT STORY
THAT I'VE NOT DONE AS PART OF A
DEAL WITH MY WIFE THAT WE HAVE
SORT OF A FEW "NO-FLY AREAS,"
AS SHE CALLS THEM.
BUT, FOR THE MOST PART, OUTSIDE
OF CONFLICT, I FOUND MYSELF
PRETTY WELL-RECEIVED.
>> BUT EVEN IN POST-CONFLICT
AREAS, NOT EVERY ISSUE MAY BE
RESOLVED.
THINGS COULD FLARE UP.
>> THAT'S TRUE.
>> HUMAN SECURITY COULD BECOME A
SERIOUS PROBLEM.
>> IT CAN.
>> HAVE YOU RUN INTO ANY
SITUATIONS LIKE THAT?
>> I'VE BEEN VERY FORTUNATE.
>> YOU'VE BEEN FORTUNATE?
[ CHUCKLES ]
>> I HAVE BEEN FORTUNATE.
I'VE NEVER REALLY FELT AT RISK.
PART OF IT MAY BE THE
NO-FLY-ZONE RULE OF MY WIFE THAT
I DO FOLLOW, BUT I HAVE OFTEN
FELT SAFER IN SOME RURAL, VERY
LOW-INCOME AREAS THAN I HAVE IN
SOME CITIES.
>> HOW DO YOU MEASURE THE
PROGRESS WE'RE MAKING?
YOU OFTEN HEAR PEOPLE SAY --
SOME YEARS AGO, IT WAS POPULAR
TO SAY THAT EVEN WITH ALL OF THE
ADVANCES OF GLOBALIZATION,
TWO-THIRDS OF THE WORLD'S
POPULATION CONSISTS OF
"HAVE-NOTS," AND, YOU KNOW,
WHERE IS THAT RATIO NOW BECAUSE
YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, SOMETIMES THE EASIEST BUT
ALSO THE HARDEST PART IS THAT
LAST BILLION.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> HOW CLOSE ARE WE TO THAT LAST
BILLION?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT WE'RE NOT
THERE YET, CERTAINLY.
I THINK THAT WE HAVE A LONG WAY
TO GO BEFORE WE CAN SAY, "WELL,
WE'RE JUST DOWN NOW TO THE LAST
10%."
I THINK THAT STILL A FIFTH OF
THE WORLD'S PEOPLE ARE IN VERY
DIRE CIRCUMSTANCES.
MEASUREMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT.
WHAT WE MEASURE IN TERMS OF
POVERTY IS WHAT WE FOCUS ON.
AND THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT I SEE
ALL THE TIME.
SO, WITHOUT GOING INTO --
WITHOUT NECESSARILY NAMING
NAMES, MAJOR AID AGENCIES TEND
TO WANT TO BE ABLE TO REPORT,
"THIS IS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WE
BROUGHT OUT OF POVERTY," OR THE
FRACTION OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
POOR HAS GONE DOWN, OR THE
MILLENNIUM DEVELOPMENT GOALS
THAT MANY HAVE HEARD OF SAY THAT
THE OBJECTIVE IS TO CUT IN HALF
THE FRACTION OF PEOPLE LIVING ON
LESS THAN $1 A DAY.
ALL OF THESE GIVE A PERVERSE
INCENTIVE FOR POLICY AND
PROGRAM PEOPLE TO FOCUS ON THOSE
JUST BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.
SO, IF THE POVERTY LINE IS
$1.25, WHICH IS THE NEW "$1 A
DAY" THE WAY IT'S ADJUSTED,
WELL, "WE WANT TO FOCUS ON
PEOPLE WHO MAKE $1.20 A DAY,"
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T TAKE MUCH TO
GET THEM OVER THAT MARK.
BUT SOMEONE LIVING ON 50 CENTS A
DAY -- A LEVEL THAT WE CALL
ULTRA-POVERTY -- MAY BENEFIT
MUCH MORE, SOMEHOW, FROM THAT
EXTRA 5 CENTS A DAY -- GOING UP
TO 55 CENTS A DAY -- GIVEN THE
HORRIBLE SITUATION THAT THEY'RE
IN THAN EVEN SOMEBODY AT $1.20.
AN EXTRA PENNY, IF YOU WANT, FOR
SOMEONE IN THE MOST SEVERE,
ULTRA-POVERTY CIRCUMSTANCES IS
WORTH MORE, SOCIALLY, SOMEHOW,
THAN AN EXTRA PENNY TO WHAT YOU
MIGHT CALL THEM -- THE RICHEST
OF THE POOR.
IF WE CAN JUST SOMEHOW MEASURE
AND INCLUDE THE PROGRESS MADE AT
THESE LOWEST INCOME LEVELS, THAT
WOULD MATTER.
SO, IF YOU'RE STARTING WITH A
NORM, WELL, THAT A POOR PERSON
IS AT $1.20, AND WE SAY WE'VE
GOT A PERSON OUT OF POVERTY
BECAUSE THEY'VE COME UP TO
$1.25, IT'S A SMALL AMOUNT, THAT
5 CENTS A DAY.
TOO SMALL FOR THIS EXAMPLE,
REALLY, BUT WE WOULD WANT TO SAY
THAT YOU HAVE A
PERSON-EQUIVALENT REDUCTION IN
POVERTY IF PEOPLE MADE AN
EQUIVALENT GAIN WHO ARE IN MUCH
MORE DIRE STRAITS.
AND THE OTHER THING, OF COURSE,
IS POVERTY IS MULTIDIMENSIONAL.
SO, IF WE JUST LOOK AT INCOME OR
CONSUMPTION, WE MISS SOME OF
THESE OTHER VERY IMPORTANT
DIMENSIONS OF POVERTY.
SO, ONE VERY INTERESTING THING
THAT THE UNITED NATIONS
DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM HAS DONE IS
TO INTRODUCE THE
MULTIDIMENSIONAL POVERTY
MEASURE.
SO, THEY'RE ALL HEADLINED,
RIGHT?
SO, WE ALWAYS TALKED ABOUT
NUTRITION AND HEALTH AND SO ON
AND EDUCATION, BUT THE HEADLINE
IS, "WHAT ABOUT $1-A-DAY
POVERTY?"
AND THEN THE LATER CHAPTERS LOOK
AT THESE THINGS BUT GET LESS
ATTENTION.
WELL, NOW THEY'RE
INDEX-COMBINING THESE IN A VERY
INTUITIVE WAY -- HELPS TO BRING
THAT TO THE FORE.
SO, AND ACTUALLY WHEN WE MEASURE
POVERTY IN THESE MORE REALISTIC
WAYS, RATHER THAN GETTING MORE
DISCOURAGED, WE CAN SEE THAT
WE'VE MADE MORE PROGRESS THAN WE
REALIZED -- THAT INCOMES OF VERY
POOR PEOPLE HAVE GONE UP, EVEN
IF THEY'VE NOT TOPPED, LET'S
SAY, $1.25.
AND EVEN IF WE STILL FACE
HORRIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES, SUCH AS
7 MILLION CHILDREN DYING A YEAR
COMPLETELY UNNECESSARILY, AND WE
HAVE TO BE MOTIVATED -- AND WE
ARE -- TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT
THIS, WE CAN ALSO UNDERSTAND
THAT THOSE NUMBERS ARE SMALLER
THAN THEY WERE.
IT WASN'T THAT LONG AGO THAT IT
WAS 11 MILLION CHILDREN A YEAR.
SO, I SEE THE PROBLEM AS ONE OF
THE GLASS HALF-FULL OR THE GLASS
HALF-EMPTY.
SO, ON THE ONE HAND, IT'S
HALF-FULL BECAUSE OF ALL THE
PROGRESS WE'VE MADE, AND THAT
TELLS US THAT ENDING POVERTY IS
POSSIBLE.
BUT IT'S HALF-EMPTY BECAUSE OF
ALL THE PROGRESS WE HAVE YET TO
MAKE.
AND THERE'S REALLY NOTHING
INEVITABLE ABOUT BRINGING THE
LAST BOTTOM BILLION OUT OF
POVERTY.
IT'S JUST NOT INEVITABLE.
THERE'S GOOD REASON TO BE
OPTIMISTIC, BUT IT'S NOT
INEVITABLE.
SO, TO ME, IT REMAINS THIS
COMBINATION THAT ENDING POVERTY
IS POSSIBLE.
WE KNOW THAT FROM THE RECORD.
BUT IT'S NOT INEVITABLE, AS WE
KNOW FROM THE PEOPLE STILL MIRED
IN POVERTY.
SO, IT'S THOSE THINGS TOGETHER
THAT KEEP ME MOTIVATED.
IF IT WERE HOPELESS, MAYBE SOME
OTHER PROBLEM CRIES OUT FOR OUR
ATTENTION.
IF IT'S INEVITABLE, WE CAN WORK
ON IT, BUT OTHER THINGS ARE ALSO
IMPORTANT.
IT'S THE COMBINATION THAT GIVES
IT ITS GREAT MORAL FORCE THAT I
THINK MANY OF US WORKING IN THIS
AREA ARE MOTIVATED BY.
SO, IN THE END, I THINK WE HAVE
TO BE OPTIMISTIC, BUT WE HAVE TO
KEEP OUR FOCUS ON THE PROBLEM.
>> NOW, YOU'VE HAD THE
OPPORTUNITY TO OBSERVE THE
DEVELOPMENTS IN THIS FIELD OVER
MANY YEARS.
WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW COMPARED
TO, SAY, 30 YEARS AGO?
ARE THERE TECHNIQUES THAT WERE
ONCE THOUGHT TO BE BENEFICIAL
THAT HAVE BEEN DISCARDED?
AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE
REALLY CUTTING-EDGE THINKING
ABOUT WHAT IS MOST EFFECTIVE
TODAY TO END POVERTY?
>> YEAH, I THINK THAT ONE REASON
FOR THE GREAT GAINS THAT WE'VE
MADE IS WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL
"TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER."
AND I MEAN THAT IN A SLIGHTLY
DIFFERENT WAY THAN YOU MIGHT
THINK OF IT.
THAT IS TO SAY, WE'VE SEEN SO
MUCH GAIN FROM BRINGING
PUBLIC-HEALTH KNOWLEDGE TO
DEVELOPING COUNTRIES.
THIS IS KNOWLEDGE THAT IT TOOK
US IN THE WEST, LET'S SAY,
DECADES IF NOT A COUPLE OF
CENTURIES TO ACCUMULATE.
WE'VE TRANSFERRED A LOT OF THAT
KNOWLEDGE, AND IMPROVED HEALTH
AND, AS A RESULT, IMPROVED
NUTRITION HAVE MADE A BIG
DIFFERENCE IN HELPING PEOPLE GET
OUT OF POVERTY OF THEIR OWN
EFFORTS.
ANOTHER AREA IS WITH
AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTIVITY.
MANY OF THE POOREST IN THE
WORLD, THE BOTTOM BILLION OF
PEOPLE REALLY LIVING IN
DESPERATE POVERTY, ARE WHAT WE
CALL SMALLHOLDERS.
SO, THEY MAY BE A FAMILY LIVING
IN A VERY HILLY, UNFERTILE AREA
TRYING TO SUBSIST ON AN ACRE OF
LAND -- VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO
DO.
BY BRINGING BETTER AGRICULTURAL
TECHNIQUES AND SO ON TO THE
PEOPLE THERE, TEACHING THEM HOW
TO USE THEM, WE CAN MAKE A BIG
DIFFERENCE, AND WE HAVE.
SO, MANY KINDS OF TECHNOLOGY
TRANSFER, KNOWLEDGE, BUT ALSO
I.C.T. -- INFORMATION AND
COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGIES --
HAVE MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE.
AND I THINK WE CAN LEVERAGE THEM
MUCH MORE AS WE LOOK AT THE
POOREST PEOPLE.
THIS IS WHAT'S WORKED, AND I
THINK WE CAN EMPHASIZE IT MORE,
ALONG WITH OPPORTUNITIES OF
EXPORTS AND OPPORTUNITIES TO
WORK WITH EMPOWERMENT OF PEOPLE.
THESE ARE VERY ENCOURAGING
SIGNS.
>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US
TODAY, STEPHEN SMITH.
>> IT'S REALLY BEEN MY PLEASURE.
THANKS.
>> AND THANK YOU.
FOR "GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES," I'M
JOHN BERSIA.
WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
>> THIS PROGRAM IS MADE POSSIBLE
IN PART BY FUNDING FROM...