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>> JACK: Alright, guys.. since this seems to be a topic that there's a bit of a
divergence of opinions on in the atheist community
I thought we'd talk about proselytization.
Uh... what do you think about it?
>> DAI: I mean.. I don't really care what people
believe or what they tell other people to believe.
As long as you're not, like
pushing your views into legislation or
invading my privacy with it, I really don't care.
>> JACK: Okay.
>> THOMAS: So what constitutes proselytization exactly?
Coming up to other people? Without knowing...
>> JACK: I guess preaching would be the easiest way to put it.
Preaching outside the venue of a church or
certain designated places for it.
>> THOMAS: Well... It sucks, but that sounds like just protected speech.
Honestly.
>> JACK: I think so too. >> DAI: I think as long as you're not doing it on publicly-funded property..
>> JACK: Well, where the opinions seem to diverge is, I think it's not just about what should be legal or authorized, but
what's appropriate.
>> DAI: Right. >> THOMAS: What would I enjoy the most? ..What's appropriate?
>> JACK: Like.. how do you feel about people knocking on your door?
>> THOMAS: Well, I don't care for any kind of soliciting.
I would not like that.
>> JACK: Okay.
>> THOMAS: That seems inappropriate to me.
>> JACK: What about, uh, street-preachers?
>> THOMAS: When you're in the street, you're on public property..
You can't take away their right to do that.
>> JACK: Oh, I'm not talking about taking away the right. I mean, do you think it's cool?
Or do you have an issue with it?
Because I think in certain public areas you are a nuisance. >> DAI: Yeah.
>> JACK: Especially if you're on a megaphone, and you know..
and you're not letting people come up to you.. >> DAI: Right.
>> THOMAS: Yeah, there have to be limits. You have to set some kind of guideline.
Like you can't be on a really busy street.
But yeah, I mean.. you kind of have to let them do that.. I feel like. If they want to.
>> JACK: But like I said, we're not just talking about whether we should...
>> THOMAS: Yeah. I mean, it's okay.
>> JACK: You think it's fine? >> THOMAS: Yeah.
>> JACK: Alright. I mean, uh, how do you feel about people proselytizing to you in general though?
>> DAI: I mean, a lot of them, they don't know better. I mean, you gotta realize that
these people think they're trying to save other people's souls.. from eternal damnation. And a lot of them like really believe it.
>> JACK: Right. >> DAI: So I mean, that's.. [cough]
..that's part of it. Like in the knocking on the doors thing, I don't really see a problem with that.
You can answer your door and be like, "I don't care", and close the door. And it ends, and it's over.
And it's no longer bothering you.
>> THOMAS: Don't answer the door!
>> JACK: I think that in terms of any kind of solicitation, I mean, there's times it's appropriate, or not, to knock on someone's door.
Um, it's Penn Jilette's contention.. --
what you were just saying a second ago-- that
he actually feels that it's wrong of people, that
do have those beliefs, not to proselytize.
>> DAI: Kind of. I mean, to them it is.
>> JACK: Well, he's saying even to him. Even to someone who doesn't believe..
for someone who does believe it to
just let you burn in hell, if that's what they believe is gonna happen if they don't open you up to
accepting Jesus, then that's wrong of them.
That they have a moral obligation to proselytize to you.
>> DAI: Yeah. Sure. >> THOMAS: Yeah.
>> DAI: I could see that.
>> THOMAS: I guess what I'm... It's not wrong
of them. That's...
>> JACK: Well I just think that's just entirely on them.
Anyway... we put up a poll
on our 'Better Off Damned' facebook page.
I'm gonna read some of the initial results. These are the results of the poll as of
making this video. We put it up a couple
hours ago.
uh... 22 people (the most people) voted for "Preach all you want. Just keep it out
of the public domain".
I think we all agreed to that..
>> THOMAS: That was right around what we were saying, yeah. >> JACK: Yeah.
>> JACK: Yeah, I mean
definitely crosses a line when you're trying to legislate
beliefs, when..
uh, you have proselytization going on in the schools... like they're, uh
handing out bibles. Um... >> THOMAS: Yeah.
But I did read that they're
are.. let.. they are
letting the satanists, and the atheists, and the secularists...
>> JACK: Are they letting them? Or...? The last I read, they were vying to be allowed to.
>> THOMAS: Okay, well... yeah, that might have been what I read. That sounds much more plausible.
And I read the same article.
>> JACK: Some atheists are even complaining that they don't think we should like throwing our hat in
hat into the lot, but..
personally i see it as the same way as the freethought group that's trying to do it, is like, "Look..
we'd rather no one be allowed to proselytize and hand out this material,
but so long as you are allowing it..
we have to throw other view-points into the mix, otherwise..."
>> THOMAS: You have to show them it's a bad idea! >> DAI: It's everybody or nobody.
>> JACK: Even if it doesn't show them it's a bad idea, like maybe, you know there might be a highschool that allows it, and they
don't care --they don't mind all the different views-- but
if you're gonna allow that, you have to
have different views, otherwise it's going to be that same "Christian exclusivity". >> DAI: Right.
>> JACK: But anyway, I think it would be a better policy to just not allow it. >> DAI: Yup.
>> THOMAS: It's the only practical
policy on the matter. It's the only practical way to make everybody equal. >> JACK: Sure.
Uh, the second most voted... uh,
was "People should keep their beliefs to theirself. Period". That had 12 votes.
>> DAI: No... I bet a lot of people-- a couple of people-- who clicked on that
are people that like share atheist memes
and things like that. And you what?
That's still you, you know, putting your opinion out there. That's not keeping it to yourself.
>> JACK: Exactly. I mean, you know... you don't want to push it onto people, but you have to be able to voice yourself
somewhere. >> DAI: Yup.
>> JACK: You know, and I prefer that people do it in a way that, you know... it's on YouTube or
on Facebook, or.. you know, you have a church.. people come to you in some way. >> DAI: Yeah.
>> THOMAS: Right. I mean, a lot of people
underthink it, I guess, and they're like, "Yes, I would
really like it if they would completely just keep their opinions to themselves". But they don't realize that that is...
Well, that they're being fascists, basically, if they think that. >> DAI: Yup.
>> JACK: Right.
i've drafted
Uh... I do have to mention though that none of these are mutually exclusive. You can check multiples
of these... >> DAI: Okay.
>> JACK: Also, it's based on like your personal feelings about it. It has nothing to
do with what should be allowed legally or not. You know?
And I can understand that some people would prefer, "Just keep your beliefs to yourself".
>> DAI: Oh yeah. You know, there's plenty of people on both sides of the fence
that are that way though. >> THOMAS: I think I would prefer that world... if
is was, just, completely consensual
and they wanted to keep their beliefs to themselves.. I would take that.
But that's not to say... [Laughter]
>> JACK: Alright, that was followed by, um...
"It's fine so long as you don't push it onto other people". Okay.
Um... one of the users added this... Um,
"Someone call the mental institute". Alright,
that's funny. That got 3 votes.
Um, "Just don't knock on my door" ...
I'm surprised. I actually expected that to have more votes. >> DAI: Yeah.
>> JACK: You know, 'cause that's how a lot of people feel about proselytization. They don't care
in the bigger picture. They're just like, "Don't bother me". >> DAI: Yeah.
>> JACK: Someone else added this too. "Ban it worldwide for
two whole generations. See if religion survives".
Let's talk about that a second. I mean, I think it's kind of a dumb thing to put on this, but
do you think religion would survive if people didn't proselytize?
>> DAI: For only two generations?
>> THOMAS: Yeah, I think it would be much smaller -- it would be like 20%, maybe 30% ... >> DAI: It'd still be there.
>> THOMAS: It would be isolated, but it
wouldn't be gone. >> JACK: I mean, my feeling is this; religion is not propagated because of people out on the street convincing
other people to join your church. How many people think someone out on the street even converts? >> THOMAS: Maybe like.. one a week,
at most. And that's like--
>> DAI: --You're being REALLY generous. >> JACK: [Laughing] Yeah, I think so too! >> DAI: I think you're being really generous...
>> JACK: No, but you know religion's propagated mainly through indoctrination and tradition.
>> THOMAS: Parents! Parents do it all.
>> JACK: You know, I don't even think.. as much as that's a bad idea, I don't support
banning anyone to belief what they want.
You know, I don't even think that would work.
But I think it's meant to be a humorous sentiment.
uh....
I'm surprised this only got two votes. As of, uh.. printing this out.
"I take it as a good opportunity to debate".
>> DAI: Yeah. >> Jack: That one I... of the
two people, I clicked that one myself. So only one other person clicked that.
>> THOMAS: Nobody likes debating theists.
Nobody sees anything as a good reason to debate theists except for that theists exist. >> DAI: [Laughing]
>> JACK: Well, except for the fact that, uh, you know..
take away the religious connotation of the word, "proselytize"...
You know, we do it too. >> DAI: Mhmm.
>> JACK: You know, we're trying to convince more people, especially fence-sitters, that
maybe their worldview is wrong. And there's
not much to these beliefs. >> THOMAS: You have to give both ideas a fair go.
>> JACK: And you know what? I don't like "cold-calling", the way religious people do.
I don't want to be knocking on doors to spread our message, and
you know what, when someone proselytizes to us, hey
that's an invitation to have that conversation. >> DAI: Yup.
>> JACK: You know, so..
I'm open to debate. I like that aspect of it.
And that was followed by...
"I don't mind at all. I value the exchange of ideas". Which I guess is
a similar way of saying the same thing. And then,
"I'm indifferent / No opinion".
And that only got 1 vote. And...
"I'm glad you care enough to try to 'save' me". Which is basically
how I wrote in the Penn Jillette type view of it.
No one voted for that.
Which, you know, I guess, you know, I don't really
care what their perspective is either. You know,
I would rather..
that not be the case, you know what, because if they all were, you know
sincere, and trying to
convert everyone they meet,
we'd be bothered to no end. >> DAI: Yup.
>> JACK: I mean, I get the thought. I get how, you know, that can be seen as lazy or immoral, or whatever, if you truly do believe
that, but..
you know what? I wouldn't want to deal with it.
>> THOMAS: I would venture to say that anybody that's not out there proselytizing and trying to save as many souls as you are.. or as..
these preachers are..
are all closet atheists, and you need to grow up.
>> JACK: Maybe, maybe.
I mean..
they might not have the strongest
convictions of, you know, their lot.
Anyway, uh... we're gonna finish eating pizza... We just wanted to discuss that
real quick.
Um...
Go ahead and, uh.. we'll put the link
to that poll in the description, and you could add to it. It's still gonna be running, so
throw in your voice.
There should be a thread under it as well. >> DAI: Sounds good.
>> JACK: Alright, don't forget to subscribe, guys.. and, uh
..all that good stuff.
>> THOMAS: I already ate a whole pizza. You guys didn't.
>> JACK: [Laughs] Yeah.
>> DAI: You like ate an entire pizza on camera. >> THOMAS: [Laughing] Yeah... basically.