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sts on the phone
like to welcome back to the program you like paris air
author of the filter bubble what the internet is hiding from you and of
course is the former executive director of move on now present of move on sports
ill i welcome back to the program
turning up
well the
added to this the
the your book the filter bubble lays out any case that um...
i guess
one could say is one of the benefits of the web is in some ways
not fulfilling its promise
uh... you know we are a lot better where we're going to be disappearing active
and introduced deodorant
new kinds of people and
what is increasingly looking like it is that the web is actually
it's a very very good at it could have two people like us and ideas like up
some things we might like
and not very good at units are getting out outside
that little
vocal
bharatraina and and
the way that this is happening
isn't this kind of invisible shift in how website surf pages
used to be the case that mm you know most of the time if you want to page and
i want to page me through the same
and now because uh... uh...
it was with him so much information about you to consider
they could actually personally popular the results
for example
google actually
gives different search result for different people based on the
information that's gathered about them so it's another words emea some
new endive were both to go to google right now and
and google
or
weeds that kite
or words that uh...
yet and that you know in that case uh... the doing okay
it's not some
conspiracy there'd they're trying to
give people the results that they'll quit for the most so
uh... the
united with card we you know i would get a different thing this time were ever in
the country than
you might work
you are both in the country
that's all fine when it's garden weeds but itself
it's a problem one at the climate change or obama her birth certificate or
whatever
you know you actually start to have
without really knowing it your own views fed back to you
fascinating and mail
let's back up for a minute how did you come to is uh... how did you come to
decide to rule to write this book
well it actually started uh... people
i am progressive
probably but and sound out of the way
about michelle them with that
uh...
you know i've only got out of them
my way to meet people who think differently from
me i'd waved i like hearing you know what conservatives are talking about it
being about
and two
united gone that sort of little many campaigns have a friend
people on facebook who would
defeating the information that was
going to be
you know more more right wing just that
to find out what they were talking about
and i walk up one morning and i noticed that
they had disappeared we're doing it wasn't
on my facebook feed
and
what facebook was actually doing with everything you have here if you think
you want to hear from these people
but actually were watching every click to add every light can every engagement
that you make on the site
and we know that well you say you want to hear from conservative actually
equipping more on the liberal weight here and get you more those people
so we're going to show you that
and so itgi
you know without asking me about it sort of invisibly edited
matesa
you know my sense of what my friends were talking about
and that really got me thinking and i started doing some research and as it
turns out that is happening almost on every major web site on the internet
and in an
uh... principal reason which is that you can make more money if you show people
stuff of that
uh... they're likely delightful
and
fine to a certain extent but
the the problem is that
there are lots of really important things that people
you know that the people who
need to hear about
that will never be the first thing that they quit you know and other words
uh... yeah
you were all more
tune
too quick on cavity is and celebrity gossip or whatever then to click on him
you have the latest
heartbreaking
complicated
story from afghanistan
answer that drops out
uh... and you're left with
kind of
the quickie stuff that doesn't it
serve you well
sing that
that face book uh... algorithm actually eg nor is the fact that you've made an
active choice to have these people in your feed and even in in and despite the
fact that you don't necessarily pursue everything that they offer
that day
that facebook's algorithm has made even that assertive of a choice to say well
you are not you're not clicking through iterate that that really justifies
you're wanting them here
ordered another really interesting travel required
so netflix throw in the
this kind of
duration and recommendation huh
you know a lot and pretty well there
on average they can get
how how well you like a movie within about perhaps start
uh... man
legally the streaming services that they can offer people watching out for thomas
period
they've noticed that even those ratings
are
off another word
people will say will give five stars to schindler's list or to citizen kane
because they feel like they should but actually when you watch the streaming
behavior
people are watching like five minutes of those movies and then clicking over to
the hangover
uh...
and
but again it's a thing of were actually my my weekly movie review guide actually
who come to them
is the same problem frankly and
and
well it's it'll
even if if anything bit
you know we know what you really want to know what you really want is
movies like the hangover and
you know my concern is
the best media actually give this a bit of both i mean i'm not saying that you
do
don't want movies like they have over i'm saying you want to max and
if you look at
you know the best magazines in the best
radio shows or whatever you know they they do you balance these two things you
get you have some information
to the implementation vegetable in their cut
mixed together in a way that we view along
and
uh... what peopel grievance to at least right now if they often just give you
information you know junk food
you don't get
you know the the the stuff that you really actually
need to needed here
and it's not just that but
some of the most rewarding experiences you have with with media with content
i don't think people in a plug for the first
hundred pages of the first thirty minutes or whatever and then it changes
your life
and
that won't be very well represented again
these kinds of algorithmic
systems that increasingly
you know our are editing the web
worry did they also seems not to allow for any type
uh... of happenstance i mean you know uh...
earn much my life most of the time i would be listened to college radio and
just sort of force myself to keep it on their through a day's worth of
programming
there would be stuffed that i'd would never have imagined would be interesting
to me and ultimately ends up
ends up being something i mean gauge that
and that it renders epidemic a
where
you know personalize media showing you
birth
that there's a story to me that whatever the that you think you want to c
but the problem with the added that
actually you know
uh... it
differently
you know the media we consume
a fact who we are or were interested in so you know there's sort of this
feedback loop where either
you get more and more dug into a few billion barrels areas
or
buchanant get exposed to
you know the whole world and sometimes that's
not go beyond the media lee pleasant experience but it's the way that you
actually hit on the things that
are are really satisfied it's it's sort of a east the
fairly dramatic problem anymore now that the promises of the web
was that we would be able to
almost program it ourselves in the sense that you know when i grew up there was
three three stations uh... plus a couple u_h_f_ that i can watch that was the
only sort of media that was coming into the home
to short of uh... the worcester telegram and is that sir
and and and so
the the promise of the internet was
and made even to a lesser extent cable television was this idea that if i found
in interest that i like or
i would have access i would be able to sort of seamlessly and without obstacle
opt findstuff unscom belonged to stuff than that
that
to i'd guess
the economic incentives are the people who supply that information
great ambit
either the other pieces different areas
you know we all of this vision of the internet displaying that connects
everyone to everyone early thirties
thought about it
and
what that we without is that increasingly
between everyone and everyone else car a few good companies
there are directing that traffic you know so it's not you know you directly
to your local pizza place if you have to go to your local pizza place
if not you dear friend if you to face book to your friend
and
those company therefore have a lot of power to shape
what you think in what you don't see and what way did you feel like you have
available to you and what ideas u
come accross
and
you know that's not how
this whole thing was originally
contemplated i mean the you know that but that's not the sort of democratize
media comms
quite that we all had in mind
so what
what's the solution to this i mean is there a solution is there any way too
convince you know if netflix or google knows what i really want oregon and the
guide is the definition of that is
dios things that uh...
there's a higher
earth you'll die guess is really the issue there is a a better chance that
they'll be able to monetize it in some fashion
uh...
for how colville we
how crowded is their any type of
solution to this on a on a government grander scale other than to just
someone ignore what i'm doing their clean my maiko keys out i guess
yet nowadays they have a few units are depicted from on the web site for the
book which is the filter roebuck complex
uh...
uh...
i think the bigger question here is you know these companies have a choice
and
they can either huh
just focus on the the most narrow we clickable staff
which in the short term at least is generates more at ease and more ad
revenue
they can say you know what you know we have we have were were we have these in
a hundred billion dollar valuations
we can
choose to actually
you've built some sense of him ethics and civic responsibility interviewed
algorithms that were making
bed support you know the the
universitat them as well the consumer
and com i think that can happen here
we the consumers actually know about this and
say that we want to and then another word that is it's a feature like any
other feature that these come hither assessing based on consumer demand
the challenges nobody knows to demand that we have because nobody pippen's
most people don't know that it's happening
but that sort of why i'm writing a book
yahoo
little bit cynical about that on some level and it would be nice to be able to
get maybe just an opt-in like i would like something that is a little more
expensive
they're not or
boat bag yes theoretically at that point
i would always choose for the more narrow one
well but cookies companies
there plenty of people are pretty excited about dating and it was sort of
a really interesting exciting juicy
engineering over the way
and they're people who are excited about
tackling it
uh... it's just not very high on the priority weapon
we have facebook has bigger fish to fry into a bigger fish to priority mail
and so huh
unit changing the fish cram priority list
you know i i think that's possible partly because i think
their people internally who would love to be set loose on it
part of the city aid a broader
societal and maybe it's a function of the internet but this concept of vitaly
that's been around for a while the
the idea of of more intense localize asian and you know the mic village i
guess is what uh...
they used to call it this idea that they you know things are localized and in
this instance it would be localized i guess i go graphically but at the same
time their modernize on a much much sort of more transcendent level
yet and
it'd be defending huh
sort of team of research
uh... dumbarton clutch at university of wisconsin tumble
looks at it
the way that ladies change when you start to have
citizens growing up with uh... with a lot of tort
and
if you know the fact is that ed
at the table morale political compliment
humble
bay uh...
people can
choose to have a live more
and they choose generally delivery women around people
like them
and we've had this massive self sorting affect
just geographically where we know
you know that
people live in communities are much more homogeneous now than they did thirty
years ago there's a good book called the big sort
detract that
there's a sort of the same phenomenon happening
online
where comical
yet no one plates where you would hope that you can go outside of your little
mc philip kerr
in my case my little brooklyn neighborhood where everyone power
inept
you're doing a lot of the same things that i am
instead he actually sort of carrying your little your little neighborhood
around with you online
wherever you go on in fact it's very hard to get out of it
uh... what and
i think that would be a sham epithets
and it would be
more than a shame it would be a real problem
whatsoever unable to escape
are own very narrow point of your calls
but let's talk a little bit about their problem and what what what what do you
see the most uh...
problematic effects of this would be ambien
obviously if i'm looking for
may you know uh...
time dealing with the garden weeds i want one that is you know zone five and
uh... this part of the country but uh... where where else with the other problems
well heat
one of the basic problem is the the daniel patrick moynihan emma enough with
that
we're all entitled to our opinion vannatter on staff
that may be easier than ever to sort of feel like you have your own fact and
for those facts could divert true quite significantly and
after google about that i i was talking to a p_r_ person like that
if you have a
you know if i'm a nine eleven conspiracy theorist
and
i google nine eleven
it easier job
if you think the the thing that we need to show people just whatever is most
relevant for them
and i said well but
get on the nine eleven conspiracy theorist in the canopy most relevant
chummy
another conspiracy say which i'm very likely the quicktime
or they're going to be most relevant actually to show me
that popular mechanics article that the bunk a lot of those conspiracy theories
and co
but
you know and and being a caretaker welten idaho will have to give acu there
but
ut you know but i think that sort of the
that's the that the challenges
you're not only indicated
are your own views being fed back here in some cases
but you're not even aware that this isn't happening
so that we told you
and at n_b_c_ return on fox
you kind of he have a uh... a sense of what the editing role as well
is going to be
show you what's not going to be sent to you
and you make a choice to look at the world today prism
with this ad you don't know on what basis approval is editing things in
their out you don't know who i think you are
you don't know therefore what's being edited out
and it could be a lot you wouldn't know you'd you'd never see it
saying what let me let me ask you before before let it go am
haiti a broader question
more rooted in
your experiences
as these the decade director of move on in
what is your sense of what's happening
in terms of online organization and i i i'm wondering if it is if is
you see it in the uh...
significant changes that have taken place over the past couple years and
where it might be going and particularly on the left with
which seems to be
there still seems to be a a time of where people are a little bit untethered
uh...
basically because of
um... you know with with him
or bomb
in office it is sort of
change the dynamics a little bit from when
move on was the sort of
the central focus
in a position of almost a defense in some way
well huh
you know i think
picking up my fill the rubble happening on my move on to http
the uh...
you know i think there's been a period of realization that
there have to be a progressive movement that the independent from
but
you know
from and democrats washington from the structures of power
pickett actually
sort of push forward ideas
amat and
and
though
unit sometime into the
the leaders in washington will take them up and sometimes they walk
i think that's where things are going to specially of economic front
there's a lot of exciting activity building midsummer around really putting
down very clear
vision for how we should
you moved forward economically that takes care of the middle class
sense peter that's not something that we've
that we've seen from from washington very much
you know i think val
challenge which which don't get back to the book is
being able to communicate
broadly about that
and you know when you're relying on
something like facebook
way
you know you do end up
you have people get out add comment to pass along the dml email as well
here are increasingly just sort of
uh... yet in this
in this world
populated by people who think like you
and so you know you can ever really big campaign they
gets a lot of people who are on the same page together but you're not necessarily
able to make your argument to people who think differently
and that's really one of the big challenges i think that we that we have
right now number-one organizing
if we can get people together
but we can as they really make the argument to people who
are on the other side it's much harder to expand
reach
that's right yep
what the internet is hiding for from u very interesting stuff i really
appreciate your joining us today on the program
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