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[Last time on...] I love that. As long as. Cus that implies
the obvious truth we all know. Obedience is conditional. Obedience is conditional.
Obedience is conditional. Obedience is conditional. My obedience is conditional. If you follow the Christ, I'll follow you.
So, the fact that the Governing Body (GB) states that everyone's free to come and go
as they please, is another dishonest tactic. You lure people,
but you don't tell them, well your not really free to go, cus if you
leave, you lose all your friends and family that are in the organization.
Not cool.
Cus it's not disobeying God to ask questions. It's not disobeying God to disagree with 9
men in New York. But people are kicked out, of their families
and friends groups, for disobeying this group of men.
That's a fact. Do you acknowledge that's a fact?
See, the assumption is: If you reject the GB, you're rejecting Jesus.
Is that not the assumption? Or can you reject the Governing Body (GB) and still be friends
with Jesus? Is that possible?
**Episode 10**
>> R: Yea but, "those who cause divisions". I could grab a group of 10 people and say,
you know what? I don't believe this. You know what he's telling
you, that's not the truth. I see it this way. Am I not causing divisions?
>> Micah: Yea. If you're living in Eastern Germany in the
80s yea, you're a seditionist.
How dare you question the government? But Christianity is not a facist dictatorship.
Jehovah accepts any and all questioners. Even Satan the Devil was allowed to present
his bogus questions. "Why does Job serve you? Isn't it because you put a hedge about him?"
But He heard him out still. So the pattern we're following is Jehovah and Jesus.
That's the pattern that we should be following.
So there is no precedent in scripture for taking any disciplinary action for questions
or doubts. >> J: But again, I have to keep on... eventually,
if person's have doubts, it's gonna get to that point
where it's gonna cause divisions. >> Micah: It might.
>> J: More than likely. Not all the time, but more than likely.
>> Micah: I mean, if you're a Muslim and you have doubts, if you're Catholic and you have
doubts, you might eventually leave the Muslims or
the Catholics. That's why many of us are Jehovah's Witnesses.
Cus we had doubts to the point where we actually took action. Like we're supposed
to... >> J: It even happens among Jehovah's people.
That some can begin to have doubts to the extent that
they feel so strongly about it that they start to say and do things that could cause divisions.
So at that point, like the scripture says... >> Micah: So then, you're using this scripture
to justify um... the limiting, or the taking away of the freedom
of speech from Jehovah's Witnesses.
>> J: No, no. that's not what it was based upon. It's based upon what the scripture says.
When a person >> Micah: I know. That's what I just said.
>> J: No. What you said was different than what I'm saying.
>> Micah: Ok. How?
>> J: The scriptural counsel says that the brothers
"keep your eye on those who create divisions and cause for stumbling
contrary to the teaching that you have learned" The teaching of Christ. That is causing disunity
in the congregation. The teachings of Christ. >> Micah: So according to that scripture - how
should we apply that scripture? >> J: When there's harm being brought to those
that is following the Christ -
>> Micah: What's harm?
>> J: Spiritual harm.
>> Micah: What's spiritual harm? >> J: That's harming their spirituality. The
things we have learned from the scriptures? Isn't the objective of the congregation of
Christ is to have peace and unity? >> Micah: Well the objective actually, as
I'm sure you know, above that, right because he came to bring, not peace, but a
sword. >> J: One of the objectives... God is a God
of order- >> Micah: Right. But more importantly he's
a God of love.
>> J: Yes. >> Micah: So if you're exerting order and
unity at the expense of love - unacceptable. >> J: And I'm not saying that.
>> Micah: And I know that you never would say that.
>> J: Because isn't discipline a way of demonstrating love?
>> Micah: I can be. Can be - if it's done according to
>> J: If it's done according to the principles of the Christ.
>> Micah: And that's not happening - and >> J: Not ever - or- in certain cases?
>> Micah: It's happening in many, myriad of cases who follow procedure to the
letter because the problem here is not just with
individual elders - who maybe are tired of being elders -
and just want to get the judicial committee over with quickly -
and I don't like that guy anyway - Disfellowship him.
The problem here is even deeper than that. It's the whole procedure. The whole judicial
committee procedure is flawed. >> J: I beg to differ.
>> Micah: Because it's based on presuming to know someone's motives.
>> J: No because when you talk to people - and you allow them a chance to speak their
mind to say what they feel - and the things that
they have done. It's not just based on just what you think.
>> Micah: Right. That's when you do it. But I've been,
I've talked to elders who don't do this at all.
>> J: I can't speak for them. >> Micah: Right, but the problem is - it's
so prevalent, so common, that you're pushing people out of the doors.
>> R: And you don't have anything to back that statement up.
>> Micah: Sure I do. >> R: That it's so prevalent? That that's
how it's being done in the organization? How do you have that?
>> Micah: You can ask anyone who's ever had a disfellowshipped family member,
who knows how the judicial committee went. >> R: Has been disfellowshipped?
>> Micah: And you'll find many cases of people who will tell you, well yea, that was not done right.
>> R: Has been disfellowshipped? >> J: That's the exception. Not the rule.
>> R: You said "majority" >> Micah: I didn't say "majority". Myriad. >> R: [laughs] Myriad.
>> R: That's a lot! >> J: That's a lot! >> Micah: That is a lot huh? It's a big problem guys.
>> J: But I think it's the exception. Not the rule. >> Micah: I hope you're right. I hope you're
right. Cus unfortunately in can't take a survey of
disfellowshipped people. >> R: So it's just a hunch in your-
>> Micah: It's more than a hunch. I have a brother and a sister who are disassociated.
>> R: A personal brother and sister? >> Micah: Yup.
>> J: Did they dis-associate themselves? >> Micah: Yup. And my mom was disfellowshipped.
>> R: At one point. >> Micah: Yea. So I knoe how many bodies of elders
work. And it's not like you guys are working right now.
That's why I'm saying, this is not about you guys.
>> J: I was, at one time, disfellowshipped myself.
But I don't feel that I was done an injustice by being disfellowshipped.
>> Micah: I'm glad. I'm glad. But if you were disfellowshipped for asking questions...
>> J: I know those brothers... >> Micah: if you were disfellowshipped for
asking questions then you would have been done an injustice.
If you're DFd for disagreeing, for asking a question that stumped them, then you would
have been wronged. I'm glad it didn't happen to you. Hope it
doesn't happens to anyone again. But my own mom feared that would happen to
me. Why would she fear that? Well she's been through a judicial committee.
You see where I might have some trepidation about meeting with the brothers now? If my
own mom is saying, Be Careful. >> R: Is that why you canceled [those other
meetings] a couple of times? >> Micah: Yes. I wanted to make sure I was
making the right decision. Absolutely. >> R: And do you feel you made the right decision?
>> Micah: Well - Yes. I do.
>> J: Just for the record, I'd like to say-
and I can only speak for myself, I'm sure Elder R feels the same way-
We'd love to see you continue to be in the congregation. That's our desire.
Is for you to continue - serving along with us - serving Jehovah along with us.
That's our sincere desire. I was thinking before I came here -
it would be so good to see you, I'll be happy to see you, but it just saddens me that it's
under these circumstances. It saddened my heart to know that it was under
these circumstances. So - we would love to continue serving with you
together in the congregation. But that's not totally up to me. Or to the two of us.
I mean you have some say so on that.
>> Micah: And so does Jehovah. Yep.
>> J: And Jehovah knows who belongs with his people and who doesn't, you know?
Ultimately he's the judge. Sometimes mistakes are made - by imperfect men -
those who don't get put out of the organization and still doing it -
But Jesus is in charge of the congregation. And what is gonna be Jehovah's will
Will be carried out. One way or another. If imperfect men don't do it, Jesus will see
that it's done. That's why the angels say, cherubs, uh the
seraphs say Holy Holy Holy - That's all they know.
Is Holy Holy Holy, so they keep the congregation clean, Jesus and his angels,
keep the congregation clean from any impurities. So that's the confidence that I have.
>> Micah: I respect that. >> J: That anything imperfections, any wrongs
that are done, they will be corrected. Maybe not when we want em to.
But they will be corrected. What is wrong will be put to right. So...
But I'm thoroughly convinced that Jehovah is directing his people thru the means that
he is using. There's no doubt in my mind about that,
but everyone has to be convinced - >> Micah: I wish you could just Matrix that
into me. "I know Kung-Fu!"
>> J: You got anything else you want to share with us?
>> Micah: No. Let's start with that little spoonful.
>> J: Appreciate you meeting with us. >> Micah: I appreciate you being Christ-like.
>> J: And being honest and open with us. That probably wasn't easy for you to do.
>> Micah: Yea, since people warned me not to be.
>> J: Obviously there was some fear and trepidation on your part.
Of course now you shared with us why you feel that way.
>> Micah: I just feel like even if they're right, and I should be afraid of being kicked
out, it doesn't mean I shouldn't meet with you
brothers. Cus even if you guys came here with your
devil horns and pitchforks, and said, Oh, we're gonna kick you out! Still I did the
right thing by coming here and laying it bare. Fortunately you guys are doing your very best
to imitate Christ. So this went beautifully. As it should. You guys need to train some
other halls. Seriously. You don't know. It's a desert out there guys.
Park is an oasis. It's not just in the name. It is.
[End of 1st Pre-Judicial Meeting]