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SHERYL MCCARTHY: Hello. I'm Cheryl McCarthy of the
City University of New York. Welcome to One to One.
What do we mean when we talk about Black Americans?
And one time we thought we knew. But the steady immigration
of black people from Africa and the Caribbean over the
past few decades has changed the ethnic composition of blacks
in the United States. What do native born and foreign born
blacks have in common? What attitudes, behaviors and
perceptions of the American Dream separate them?
How are they viewed by the population at large and
how do they view each other? And what political and
social impact has the changing ethnicity of blacks in this
country had on blacks themselves and on Americans
as a whole? Christina Greer, Assistant Professor of
Political Science at Fordham University addresses these
issues in her new book "Black Ethnics: Race, Immigration
and the Pursuit of the American Dream". Recently published in
paperback by the Oxford University Press. Welcome.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Thank you so much.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: The germ of this book goes back to when
you were a freshman at Tufts University back in the '90s,
one of 60 black students in a class of 1200 and the largest
group of black students in every class that they had ever had.
You write that at a special orientation weekend for the
black freshman. You all were asked to raise
your hands in your parents had warned you about getting
wrapped up with the black kids. And the only ones who didn't
raise their hands, who hadn't been worn about getting wrapped
up with the black kids, we're the six black American
students in the room. What did this tell you?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Well for the first time in my life I
was actually in an academic institution with a relatively
large number of African Americans. So I was excited
actually to be with blacks for the first time in academic
setting. I had gone to relatively homogenous schools
my entire life. So when I obviously opened up my eyes
because I thought it was a ridiculous question and I
realized there was clearly something going on that I
was not aware of before I went to University. I'd been going
to Boston for many years. My sister was up the street at
Harvard. So I was accustomed to an academic setting with
high achieving blacks. But I had never disaggregated-
her best friends were Haitian and Nigerian but I never really
thought about it. I just thought she had really
smart black friends.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Well one thing, the overwhelming number of
blacks who had got into this very excellent school were not
American Blacks. They were Caribbean or African.
So does suggest something about who's going to college and
who's not? Who are the good students and who is not?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Well that's the narrative that we think we
know. I mean Lana Guarani has definitely done some work
looking at elite, elite institutions that tend to of the
black students tend to have more Caribbean's and Africans.
But as a whole when you look at universities across the
country, that's not necessarily the case.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Interesting. But it also said something
about attitudes that Caribbean America parents, African America
parents. I'm talking about Africa Africa Americans have
towards black students, towards American blacks.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: And I use the term black American just
to decrease confusion but also in a historical sense there are
many black Americans who don't necessarily feel beholden
to the continent itself. So just as that helped me clarify
certain things in the book. But I think a lot of parents,
especially first generation parents who may not have had
either interactions with black Americans or first generation
parents who have had less than positive interactions with
black Americans due to neighborhood segregation or
competition or perceived competition for jobs.
They're definitely on the defensive when it comes to
interactions with black Americans, which the literature
states trickles down to their children and that creates this
beginning of an attitude that can divide black American
and non-black American students.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: What were the relations like between
black Americans, Caribbean Americans and
African Americans on campus?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Well on campus it was great in the
sense that because we are such a small group there was
definitely a cohesive group. We were all, for the most part
almost all of us were members of the Pan African Alliance
which most university campuses call the Black Student
Association but for various reasons it had gone through a
different name changes. But when I was there, certain students
broke off and formed the African Student Association and other
students broke off and formed the Caribbean students
Association. But what I found fascinating is that they never
gave up their membership with the Pan African Alliance.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Interesting.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: So we were always one large group of blacks
but every now and again certain ethnic
priorities took precedence.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Right. Now blacks in this country tend to
be lumped altogether. But because of immigration
African Blacks and Caribbean Blacks now comprise about
10 percent of all blacks in this country. How many blacks in
this country altogether, do you know?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Around 36 million right now.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: 36 million, okay.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: And that's the census, as mandated by the
Constitution is every 10 years you must take a census of the
population but we do know that marginalized communities
which tend to be communities of color usually don't fill out
the census at the same rates as other communities.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: So there are probably more than-
CHRISTINA M. GREER: There are probably more, especially when
it comes to African population.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Okay.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Because many Africans are coming not in
the traditional migratory patterns that we've seen in the
past with Caribbean's. Some are coming as asylum seekers.
Some are coming as refugees. Some are coming as doctors
and lawyers, whatever it may be. But we have a feeling that
we're actually under representing the number of
Africans that are actually here.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: I remember one time, so it's still about 12
percent black altogether?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Right, 12 to 13 percent.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Okay. You write that a new type of
caste system is threatening to evolve with the
creation of elevated minorities.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: So we've all heard the term model
minority which is often ascribed to-
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Asians.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Asian American populations, right.
So of the immigrants they are oftentimes spoken about as the
smart ones and sort of the ones that can come here and really
make it. And so what I argue in the book is that historically
we've had sort of whites and non-whites, right? Categories
where whites were very protective of keeping as many
people out of their protective white categories. That goes for
the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, Jewish people and over
time they've loosened up the boundaries and become a
little more porous and they've allowed more people in for their
own strategic and political gain. And so when I came up with
this concept of elevated minorities it's because even
though it oftentimes seems as though whites just see blacks as
this big mass, which sometimes that's the case but every now
and again, especially in educational sense and even
occupationally, neighborhoods, there are whites and elites and
people in power that actually do see a distinction. They may not
necessarily understand the distinction but they are seeing
Caribbean's as immigrants who may necessarily work harder or
Africans as immigrants who have greater aspirations than this,
quote, unquote, last place category of black Americans.
And so essentially I argue, it's no longer whites versus
non-whites but this category of blacks versus non-blacks
in that immigrants are trying to stay out of the black category
and that goes for Caribbean's and Africans as well.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: So if Caribbean Americans and African Americans
are seen as the elevated minorities or model minorities
or more model minorities by whites, you also found that
they are seen that way by black Americans, right?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Right. So when I wanted to see how
groups viewed themselves. I wanted to see how these three
groups viewed one another and the ultimate goal was not to
say, okay, well this group is smarter and this group works
harder and this group has more promise but to see where
we agree and to see where we differ and this is on policy
positions so that we can actually have substantive
coalition building moving forward as we become more
diverse. But what was quite shocking is that
black Americans viewed themselves as sometimes hard
working, sometimes not but they definitely viewed
Afro-Caribbean's and Africans as very hard working as did
Caribbean's and Africans they viewed themselves as hard
working. And so if we say it's a scale one to seven roughly and
seven being the hardest working, Africans were overwhelming
seen as hard working. Caribbean's were overwhelmingly
seen as hardworking by all groups. But black Americans
were sort of in the middle. Roughly four and a half. Not
only by Africans and African Caribbean's but by blacks
themselves which lets us know there's something else going on
with how black Americans are viewing their prospects and
also how they fit in America.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Right. Now there are all these perceptions
about which blacks have been more or less successful in
achieving the American Dream. Is there any data showing that
there are different levels of success among these groups,
for instance, in terms of school performance, level of education
attained, income, home ownership, business ownership,
participation in crime?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Right and economists have proven that
actually there is no model minority amongst blacks, so
oftentimes the narrative is that Caribbean's are better off,
more financially stable, have a higher education. And that's
not necessarily the case. We also have to remember there's an
immigrant selection when it comes to Caribbean's and even
certain Africans. So if you are completely not motivated, not
educated, not well connected, you actually aren't coming here.
If you don't have the social networks, if you don't have the
financial capacity, if you don't bother to fill out the forms to
get the refugee status, you're not actually going to come here.
So we know that with black Americans we're looking at sort
of A through Z but with Caribbean's and Africans we
actually have select members that are somewhat more
ambitious from the beginning to actually come here.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Interesting. Interesting. I mean for
instance I would think that perhaps in terms of ownership
I know that's an area where Caribbean's are very- that
maybe you would find a higher level of ownership among
Caribbean's. But maybe not. Does the data not show that?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: The economists are actually
showing that when we look at the percentages, obviously in
New York it may appear certain ways, in Brooklyn versus
Harlem, but when economists have looked
across the country, that's not necessarily the case.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: That's not necessarily the case. How about
in terms of business ownership? You would think that
entrepreneurships seems to be a thing that both Africans and
Caribbean's are into more so than black Americans.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: And immigrants in general, right?
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Yes.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: So this is the fascinating thing when you
actually look at the numbers, the quantitative assessments of
economists, they're actually saying well these are actually
perceptions that we have.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: And they're not necessarily true?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: And they're not necessarily true. And so
that actually was a motivating force behind the book to sort
of start to peel back some of these layers because we
actually haven't disaggregated these populations in a way
that I think we could or should. So there are many CUNY
sociologists who have done a fantastic job; Kasinitz, Foner,
Alba, to really, and Mollenkopf, to really think about
Caribbean's and black Americans. And so my question was well
what if we add Africans into the mix? Will that sort of
complicate some of your theories or will they hold up as
far as black immigrants versus native or is it- are they
telling a very specific Caribbean Black American story
and we're leaving out relatively small in sort of global terms
or U.S. Census terms but a growing population, right? So
I'm very clear in the book to say listen, this isn't the end
of the conversation. Certain books are the end of the
conversation to sort of shut it down. I'm synthesizing all
of the information. I'm very clear.
This book is actually just a beginning.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: I'd love to see those statistics and
what they show. We have to take a short break.
We're going to be back with more with
Professor Christina Greer after this message.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Welcome back to One to One.
I'm Sheryl McCarthy of the City University of
New York and I'm talking with Christina M. Greer,
Assistant Professor of Political Science at Fordham
University. She's the author of "Black Ethnics: Race,
Immigration and the Pursuit of the American Dream".
It's just been published by the Oxford University Press.
You write that the different black ethnic groups have
different views about the attainability of the American
Dream. Basically that if you work hard you can go someplace.
That African Blacks believe in it most strongly.
Black Americans are somewhere in the middle. Caribbean blacks
have the weakest belief in the American Dream.
I found that really interesting.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Right. And so I should just back up a
little. So this is based on quantitative and qualitative
data. So I did a survey of union population in
New York City, Local 371, Social Services employees but
then I also followed up with interviews to sort of help
explain some of this. Because these findings are actually-
that was against my hypothesis. So my hypothesis was
Africans being sort of as a group the newest newcomers,
black newcomers. They would wholeheartedly believe in
the American Dream. Afro-Caribbean's as sort of
the second- the group in the middle. I thought that
they would say okay well you know we're working on it
and it's attainable. And then black Americans as descendants
of U.S. slavery, as ninth generation Americans would say
you know what it's just not possible.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Would be the most pessimistic.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: They would be by far the most
pessimistic and what I found was Africans, everything held,
but black Americans were in the middle in the sense that I
entitled the chapter You Win Some, You Lose Some, right.
So many African Americans- or black Americans said well
you could have a child whose an awarded winning journalist or
a professor and you could also have a child that ends up
in the prison industrial complex for a small bag of weed.
This is just, those are the breaks. So based on class,
based on geographic locale, sometimes you make it and then
sometimes it really does feel like the country is working
against you on a host of levels. And then Afro-Caribbean's
through the qualitative interviews to try and chip at
why is it that you all are the least invested in the
American Dream. They argued well if I came here at the same
time as someone from Germany or someone from Japan, why is
it that I have a mandatory black prefix on my
American status? Why can't I just work hard and become
an American like everyone else? Seems like all the other
groups, Asian, Indian, European, whatever it may be they
get to just become American. But I have to become black
American. And so they're seeing the residential segregation.
They're seeing the complications with employment and
employers. They're seeing the difficulty to have equitable
education for their children. So immigrants, people of
color, people who are poor, whatever it may be,
they all want the same things. It's just who ends
up getting them is the distinction.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: I wonder if first generation Caribbean
Americans are more optimistic about the American Dream
and then as they stay here longer
they become less optimistic?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Right. And so the Afro-Caribbean's that I
surveyed and interviewed were primarily second generation.
So we have a generation and an ethnic story going on.
So this is why I'm most fascinated with African
populations, right, because primarily the vast majority of
the people in the sample are relatively newcomers.
So over time will they look more like Caribbean's where
they sort of- will it sort of look like a pendulum where it
swings far where they're extremely pessimistic or will
they eventually settle in the middle like black Americans?
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Is there a pan ethnic identity that's
shared by the three black ethnic groups?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: I think I definitely think there is,
right, because there's so many things that happen in
this city but also in this country-
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Just because you're black.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Well this black prefix is real, right?
It's not a figment of our imaginations. And so I think,
and I mention this in the book, with Abnor Louima and
Amado Diallo and Rodney King and there's so many people
who have black sons and nowadays unfortunately with
the violence we're seeing black daughters.
They now know that if the police are going to stop
someone, they're not asking well are you from-
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Are you from Africa or are you from Georgia?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Are you from Kenya? Because if you're from
Kenya I won't stop you. And so they're seeing that they're
being lumped in this larger black category and there are
certain things that are happening that are the
antithesis of American small dedemocratic principles.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: But you did find that in some instances
the immigrant blacks will do things to separate them,
to distinguish themselves from black American like
holding on to their ethnic identities.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Right. And this goes back to a lot of the
literature that I've read from the CUNY sociologists where
they've said immigrants will oftentimes maintain an accent
or make sure an employer knows that they're not black
American. That their mother is from Jamaica or wherever
it may be and we're seeing this with Africans as well.
And so this is the first time that we're actually seeing
an immigrant group want to remain relatively immigrant.
We know that the past narrative for most immigrant across
the country has been to assimilate and/or acculturate
as quickly as possible. So that may mean changing your
last name, making sure you drop the accent, making sure you
move to a particular neighborhood- just making sure
you can become, quote, unquote, American
as quickly as possible.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: What are the points of friction between
the three black ethnic groups?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: And the crazy thing is I didn't find
huge areas of dissension but immigration is still a
question. Obviously people who have family members who
are immigrants tend to support immigration and spending
for immigration at greater levels.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Then black Americans.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Then black Americans. Black Americans
tend to support social welfare at greater rates because
many people from the Caribbean and the African countries
aren't coming from places with social welfare states. So
there is this ethos of working hard and not depending on
the government. We know that there are many shared
ideologies about how they feel as though they're treated by
whites, how we should spend money on education and
social security and sort of these big ticket items. And so
it seems like the nuance and the devil is in the details more
on local politic issues that can be controlled by individuals and
small level leadership positions.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: So what's the significance of any of
this? What difference does it make? Why should we care?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Right. Well I mean for me as a beginning
conversation, when we look at Brooklyn, for instance,
where we now have neighborhoods that are a traditionally
black neighborhood but they are also a traditionally
Caribbean neighborhood as well and so how will this
affect how we choose leaders, how we choose elected
officials. We're starting to see some of this play out in Miami.
We'll start to see it play out in different ways in
Washington DC which has a very large Ethiopian and
Nigerian population. And so I want to also know how can the
three groups actually come together and maximize their
political power so that we don't end up as this splintered
group that's running in three different directions and blacks
end up with absolutely nothing.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Did you- and I don't know if this is even a
question that came up but do you think that there's a feeling
that one of the reasons Barack Obama has been so successful,
got himself elected President, because he is- his father, the
black half of him is not black American but African?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Well I mean I mentioned this in the book
just as a hypothetical. I mean that narrative is very strong.
We don't have a president who's a descendent of U.S.
slavery. And so I mean this is- I ask my students
all the time what if he said my mother's from Duluth and
my father's from Detroit? Like that actually means something
to white Americans and black Americans across the country.
If he said my mother's from Nebraska and my father's from
Nigeria, that actually means something for white Americans
and black Americans across the country. So I mean I think
the fascinating part-
SHERYL MCCARTHY: What does it mean?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Well when I ask my students what they know
about Africa and they say nothing but then I ask
them about Nigeria and the Congo and Kenya they've got very
different things to say. So they actually have assumptions
about these various countries even if they've never been
there. So this is a very interesting moment in time for
the three groups to negotiate how they feel about being black
and American in America in the 21st Century.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Do you think there are lessons,
black Americans, given what the attitudes are of these black
ethnic groups towards each other, do you think there are
lessons black Americans could learn from the esurience,
the attitudes, the behavior of African and Caribbean
immigrants and are there lessons African and Caribbean
blacks could learn from the experience, attitudes and
behavior of black Americans?
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Well I definitely think that's the
case. And I think it's happening. I think these are
conversations that black communities have been having
amongst ourselves for quite some time. So the same way that
students raise their hand because their parents have told
them to be wary of black Americans, those same parents
are often having conversations with their children about what
it means to be black in America. And build these bonds.
The reason why those students were on the trip is because
their parents actually instilled a certain level of
blackness within them, a certain shared identity that does exist
and I think with neighborhood segregation and with the
inequities that continue to exist in the United States,
these conversations are now being had not necessarily
in a competitive fashion in the same way but as a more
productive way of trying to figure out what the next step
should be because without a larger group nothing will
actually move forward.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: Well just picking up on that, you said
earlier that you're concerned about what are the
possibilities for a political coalition of these three black
ethnic groups. And I guess- and I heard that over the years.
Does it matter if these groups form a coalition with each other
or if they form a coalition with other groups for instance with
Puerto Ricans or whomever.
CHRISTINA M. GREER: Right and it doesn't have to be mutually
exclusive. And so I think my beginning conversation was just
to say well if we are going to form substantive coalitions,
not just descriptive coalitions, but substantive coalitions,
maybe we should think about the policy positions that we
actually share so they're not these coalitions, these loosely
based sort of non-effective coalitions just based on
blackness but they're based on policy positions and ideas
that are shared between...The American polity. They would be
the least optimistic and I was definitely shocked to sort of
here this attitude of you win some you lose sometimes.
Sometimes it shakes out beautifully and sometimes it
doesn't. And so really curious to see if these
African Caribbean's will sort of have this pendulum which I
think it may be and essentially settle in the middle and I'm
fascinated to see where African groups really think about their
placement with this lack of exit option, with this immigrant
selection where they'll end up in the next generation
or two as far as their attitudes toward the American
Dream and their ability to actually fully succeed.
SHERYL MCCARTHY: I found your findings very interesting
and some of them surprising. I must say your book is a
product of your academic research and it is an academic
kind of book. It's not reading for the subway but I found
it very interesting. And I think that a lot of our viewers
would too. We're out of time. I want to thank
Christina Greer for joining us today. "Black Ethnics:
Race, Immigration and the Pursuit of the American Dream"
has just been published in paperback by the Oxford
University Press. For the City University of
New York and One to One, I'm Sheryl McCarthy.
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