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ELLIOT WILSON: And what made it feel right working with
Ryan that it became more than just somebody supplying beats?
It's all Macklemore, Ryan Lewis, like you're partners.
How does that develop?
Is it first just learning, liking his sound?
How does that develop a partnership?
MACKLEMORE: I think it was liking his sound.
And I needed a producer.
I needed somebody that was going to make records with me,
not just send beats.
Jake One's in the house.
I bought some Jake beats.
ELLIOT WILSON: Jake One!
MACKLEMORE: I wrote to him.
But Jake's making records with G Unit.
And he's making beats for tons of different people.
Ryan was like, I'm going to sit in the studio with you.
I'm going to critique your writing.
We're going to work on it.
I'm going to mix this track, turn these into songs.
And I had a producer on my first album, name's Bhutto.
ELLIOT WILSON: [LAUGHS].
MACKLEMORE: Bhutto's in the house.
No, I'm just kidding.
A very near, dear friend of mine.
And he started working with somebody else.
So I didn't have that one person.
And I feel like there's certain people that can go
through and get 12 different producers on one album.
I'm somebody that wants to build a rapport and a
relationship and really work on these songs.
And Ryan was that person.
He was making stuff that was a little bit different.
I'm kind of more classically--
gravitate towards boom bap hip hop music.
And Ryan was influenced by so many different genres.
But it was interesting to me.
And it was something that was a little bit different.
And I was like, if this is going to connect with people,
it has to be a little bit different.
I can't emulate what other people have made.
I want to be forward thinking.
And Ryan was that sound.
ELLIOT WILSON: When did you know it was right?
When did it click that this feels like this
is something different?
Like, I'm in it with this guy, and it feels right?
MACKLEMORE: I don't know.
Because I felt that, and I don't think
that Ryan felt that.
ELLIOT WILSON: He thought you were going to dump him.
MACKLEMORE: No, I thought I was about to get dumped.
Ryan, at the same time that we were working on the "Verses"
EP, he was working with a guy named Symmetry.
And they were working on an album.
And we were working on our thing.
And Ryan is the type of person that's like, he makes a beat,
and immediately he's like, yo, Elliot, come listen to this
***, dawg!
Boom!
What do you think that?
What do you think?
And if you're like, yo, this *** is crazy, Ryan's like--
[CELEBRATES].
I'm the best!
ELLIOT WILSON: RL!
MACKLEMORE: And if you're like, eh, I don't know,
Ryan's like, aw.
ELLIOT WILSON: Aww.
MACKLEMORE: So in particular, he was like that for when we
first started to make music.
I think that now it's different.
I think there is still elements of that in his
personality.
Just like anybody, you know, we're artists.
We're sensitive *** people, man.
I'm a grown *** man, but I'm sensitive.
ELLIOT WILSON: I'm sensitive about my ***,
that's how we do, man.
MACKLEMORE: Exactly.
And people would give Ryan feedback.
Some people liked the Symmetry stuff more.
And some people liked our stuff more.
And Ryan was kind of in the middle and was like, I don't
know what I'm going to really put my energy into.
And ours just caught on, and that was what he went with.
But there was a time we were going to
call ourselves Verses.
That was going to be our group name.
And, um--
why are you laughing, dude?
I love that name!
ELLIOT WILSON: That's kinda cool.
MACKLEMORE: But Ryan was the person who was like, let's
call it-- let's keep this Macklemore and Ryan Lewis.
If I need to split, I can just cut out through the back door.
And I'm like, come on, man, let's be a crew!
ELLIOT WILSON: That's rare in hip hop now, the MC and the
producer, gangster.
MACKLEMORE: Exactly, exactly.
So at this point, Macklemore and Ryan Lewis is a crew, it's
just our collective names.
But yeah, I have no idea what I was talking about.
ELLIOT WILSON: So when you did "Verses" and the response to
that, I guess you went back on the road and
started doing shows.
Talk a little bit about that.
I feel like a lot of your success is your ability--
you're a great live performer.
I was telling you how [INAUDIBLE]
got familiar with you.
He went to one of your shows and came away-- this was
before "The Heist"--
and explaining that almost to understand you is to see you
perform live.
And that seems like you put a real premium to that.
So was it shows around "Verses" that then began to
feel like you still have a shot.
This is your last shot, but you could achieve this?
MACKLEMORE: You know, I think that another blessing in
disguise with how long this took me and just the nature of
how we came up was the fact that I had so many years to
get good at performing and comfortable
in front of an audience.
So many people these days, they put out a
song, it goes viral.
And next thing they know, they're on a stage.
And they've done two shows in their life before.
And that stage is in front of the world.
At the point where things started to pick up momentum, I
had already put in hours and hours and hours on stage, tons
and tons and tons of shows.
And I had gotten comfortable in front of 1,000 people, in
front of 20 people.
And 20 people is a lot more challenging than 1,000 people.
20 people is a ***.
ELLIOT WILSON: You know if they're rocking or not.
MACKLEMORE: Yeah.
You are so exposed in front of 20 people.
And I did a lot of shows in front of 20 people, man.
ELLIOT WILSON: How do you get to where you're selling out
shows in New York?
Where like, I didn't even know who you were.
And you're selling out New York shows as
an independent artist--
MACKLEMORE: No, I knew you weren't there--
ELLIOT WILSON: --from Seattle.
[LAUGHS]
He said that he gave me his CD at South by Southwest and I
played him out.
I don't even remember.
MACKLEMORE: Yeah.
ELLIOT WILSON: But you're a rap star now.
MACKLEMORE: That was embarrassing.
ELLIOT WILSON: He's a big rap star now.
I love when I'm wrong.
MACKLEMORE: I was like, oh, ***, it's Elliot Wilson.
ELLIOT WILSON: I love when I'm wrong!
MACKLEMORE: I was like-- had the backpack on.
I was like, I'm going to give him my demo.
It was like the first day of South by.
I was like, what's up, man?
Like, what's up.
And then I busted out the CD.
And you're like, thanks, man.
ELLIOT WILSON: No, I didn't throw it.
I didn't throw it, I didn't throw it.
MACKLEMORE: No, you didn't throw it.
ELLIOT WILSON: I didn't throw it.
MACKLEMORE: Not that day.
ELLIOT WILSON: I dumped it back at the hotel.
MACKLEMORE: Yeah, not that into it.
Still [INAUDIBLE].
ELLIOT WILSON: No, but then I was in [INAUDIBLE].
Beat out Rap Radar, he went to the show.
He came back.
He was like, yo, there was this sold out show I went.
Macklemore, I don't even understand what's going on.
This guy is great.
The performance, New York's a tough crowd, obviously.
And you came out of nowhere.
And it's like the buzz starts building.
This guy's coming to New York.
He's some white dude from Seattle.
He's selling out these shows in New York.
Like, who is he?
Then, you gotta go back and be like, find out who you are.
Were there certain markets where you started seeing
ticket sales pick up that you felt like, wow, this is
beginning to be something?
MACKLEMORE: Yeah.
In New York, we started out at Webster Hall.
Is that it?
ELLIOT WILSON: Yup.
MACKLEMORE: 200 cap room.
We sold out 200 people in New York.
And Zack, who at the time was our booking agent, was very
strategic in let's play very small rooms and sell them out.
Create a demand with the public.
Create buzz for whoever's paying attention that, wow,
this person's selling out shows in San Francisco, and
New York, and Seattle, and LA.
And what is this?
We would much rather play a smaller venue and sell it out
than play a bigger venue and have it at half capacity.
And that was a method that really worked for us in terms
of building momentum, in terms of people paying attention.
But I get on stage.
And that's where I feel like I'm at home.
That's the place that I flourish.
I love the studio.
Absolutely I love the writing process.
But in terms of me being an artist, I think that one of my
greatest resources is what I can do with the stage.
ELLIOT WILSON: What's the craziest purchase you've made
now that you got a little bit of money, that
you'll admit to?
MACKLEMORE: Craziest purchase would be--
ELLIOT WILSON: Uh-oh, he's embarrassed.
MACKLEMORE: No, I'm not!
ELLIOT WILSON: You bought a camel.
MACKLEMORE: I bought a camel?
The craziest purchase would be the music videos that we made.
But I think that in terms of a personal
purchase, I bought a car.
I bought a Cadillac.
ELLIOT WILSON: That's not crazy.
MACKLEMORE: It's not crazy.
That's not crazy.
I did--
I did buy a Rolex.
People are like, boo!
But it's like a 1980s vintage Rolex.
Redemption!
ELLIOT WILSON: Do you have a hard time processing how the
bank account's looking?
Do you rebel against it?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Does it feel [INAUDIBLE]?
MACKLEMORE: I think one thing that I've always believed in,
that I've always thought, but it's super cliche, it's that
money is not going to buy you happiness.
And at times again this year when I was making a ridiculous
amount of money, when I had the number one song in the
world, I was very unhappy.
And I know that that number, I haven't spent a
lot of it at all.
I shop, but I really haven't spent a lot of that money
whatsoever.
I know it's there.
I think that what it is--
there's a certain level of comfort.
There's a certain level of, I'm good.
But it's not--
I can't even--
I'm not home to buy a house!
My two bedroom apartment is basically just like a closet.
We just literally go there to pack--
ELLIOT WILSON: I thought you were joking about this two
bedroom apartment!
MACKLEMORE: No, no, no, it's very real.
And we just actually started looking at houses yesterday.
So who knows what will happen.
But I want to be comfortable.
I don't want to be excessive.
I'm somebody that likes material stuff, but I know
that that's not going to fulfill me.
I go spend x amount of dollars on a car, or on jewelry or
whatever, and it's just like anything else.
It's an addiction.
And once you start, it's very hard for me to stop.
Once I start--
and it's all relative.
And I've gone through periods of being like, all right, I'm
just going to get one more gold chain.
This one's it.
And then two days later it's like, I need
another gold chain.
ELLIOT WILSON: No Jesus piece, though.
MACKLEMORE: I have a Jesus piece, too.
ELLIOT WILSON: You do?
You should have worn a Jesus piece.
MACKLEMORE: I'm a rapper, man, I rap!
I wear Jordans and Jesus pieces.
ELLIOT WILSON: Speaking of being a rapper, we've done
this whole interview, we have yet to talk about being a
white rapper.
Isn't that great?
It seems like the world's changed, man.
MACKLEMORE: Wow.
ELLIOT WILSON: We haven't really talked about that.
But it's funny.
You probably made a lot of people feel like the best
record about that, "White Privilege," which you
mentioned earlier, and it's funny because you weren't
successful when you wrote that record.
You were writing it like Eminem sort of as an example
of that time.
But now you're successful.
How does that--
listening to that, or how you wrote record, today, how does
it affect you now, your viewpoint of that type of song
now that you're, in some ways, the new generation can look at
you as that guy?
MACKLEMORE: White privilege is a fascinating topic.
And it is one that has many different levels.
We could spend this whole time talking about it.
So it's tough to just dance into in and dance out of it.
But when I was growing up, hip hop, even in Seattle, which is
a very white city, even in Seattle there was diversity at
hip hop shows.
Me being a white person at a hip hop show, I was not the
majority when I first started to go to hip hop shows.
That started changing with Eminem.
I was a little bit too young for the Beastie Boys.
But with Eminem, I watched that.
It started changing.
And you looked at the biggest rapper in the world, and he
was a white dude.
And it opened up the floodgates to a whole new,
different demographic of audience member.
And I started writing "White Privilege" being in a show in
Olympia, Washington, which is a very white community.
ELLIOT WILSON: You don't say!
MACKLEMORE: I think it was a Dead Pres show or something.
It was all white people.
And I was just like, this is weird as hell, man!
But it's something that I absolutely not only, in terms
of society, benefit from my white privilege.
But being a hip hop artist in 2013, I do as well in the
sense that the people that are coming to the shows, the
people that are connecting, that are resonating with me
that are like, I look like that guy, I have an immediate
connection with him, I benefit from that privilege.
And I think that mainstream pop culture has accepted me on
a level that they might be reluctant to in terms of a
person of color.
And they're like, oh, this is safe.
This is OK.
He's positive.
I'm cussing my *** off in "Thrift Shop," but families
are like, (SINGING) *** awesome, yeah!
ELLIOT WILSON: [LAUGHS]
MACKLEMORE: So I think it's an interesting case study.
It's something that I feel, as a white rapper, I have a
certain amount of responsibility to, at the very
least, speak on the issue of race knowing that it's
uncomfortable, that it's awkward, that in particular
white people are like, let's just not talk about it.
Everyone is equal!
And the reality is that--
ELLIOT WILSON: Oh, we don't see race anymore, ***.
MACKLEMORE: Yeah, and that's ***.
We absolutely see race.
We all do.
And I think that we can evolve as long as we're having
discussions about it, as long as we're talking about it.
And I talk about it on "The Heist" a little bit with the
Treyvon Martin case, feeling like as a white rapper, can I
talk about that?
I'm also the enemy in a way.
And not me specifically, but the system that I'm a part of.
And can I speak on that issue?
Do I Tweet about that?
How do I bring that up?
ELLIOT WILSON: Being sensitive to it.
MACKLEMORE: Yeah.
And it's something that I have to think about.
And yet, I think what surpasses all of it is just
being a human and striving for equality for all people.
But to say that race isn't an issue in America in 2013 is
just false, absolutely.
And you look at the way that that case panned out, and it's
a clear indication that we have a far way to go.
ELLIOT WILSON: Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
People look at what you're doing as you're a sensation.
You know what I mean?
You've impacted culture across the board, from hip hop to pop
in such a major way for the last--
it's going on a year.
What is it about you that you feel like you're going to be
in it for the long haul, like five years from now that
you're still in that conversation?
Or do you want to be?
Do you see yourself?
You say you're a hip hop head.
Are there goals in your life that you feel even right now
that you'd want to achieve down the road?
MACKLEMORE: Yeah, absolutely.
They're not concrete goals.
I think it's very simple.
I want to make good music.
And I want to do it the way that I always have.
I want to write records that are conceptual, that push
myself as an artist, that push the listener, and speak on
issues that I'm scared to speak on.
And that's it.
That's my formula.
It's not complex, but it does take a while
to write those records.
I want to branch out.
I want to work with other people.
I want to challenge myself as an artist to always be
evolving and growing.
But at the end of the day, it comes down to--
I'm not like I have a bucket list.
Like, I need to do a track with Jay Z. I need to sell
this many more.
It doesn't break down like that.
Those things would be great.
But I want to have longevity.
I want to be--
and what that comes down to is just making music from the
heart and having the proper intention.
If we go on and we never get another song on the radio,
that will be fine with me.
It will kinda suck, but no, it will--
it honestly will be fine.
As long as we're making good music,
that's all I care about.
ELLIOT WILSON: Well, you make good music, man.
MACKLEMORE: I appreciate it.
[APPLAUSE]
ELLIOT WILSON: Take some pictures.
MACKLEMORE: Thank you, [INAUDIBLE].