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>> Simon: COMMIT A *** AND
YOU CAN GO TO JAIL FOR LIFE,
MAYBE EVEN LOSE YOUR LIFE.
BUT HOW ABOUT KILLING NOT ONE
PERSON, BUT 1.7 MILLION PEOPLE,
AND GETTING AWAY WITH GENOCIDE?
IN CAMBODIA, BETWEEN 1975 AND
1979, THE KHMER ROUGE KILLED ONE
OUT OF EVERY FOUR CAMBODIANS.
AND, INCREDIBLY, ONLY NOW, 20
YEARS AFTER THE CRIME, THESE
MASTER CRIMINALS, SURVIVING
LEADERS OF THE KHMER ROUGE, ARE
BEING CAPTURED OR TURNING
THEMSELVES IN.
WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THEM IS
BEING DECIDED AS WE SPEAK, AND
EVEN MORE INCREDIBLY, ONE VERY
REAL POSSIBILITY IS NOTHING AT
ALL.
WE DECIDED TO STUDY THE QUESTION
OF JUSTICE FOR GENOCIDE THROUGH
THE EYES OF TWO AMERICAN
CITIZENS.
AND, IN FACT, OUR STORY BEGINS
IN LOWELL, MASSACHUSETTS, WHERE
ONE-THIRD OF THE POPULATION
TRACES ITS ORIGINS TO CAMBODIA.
SENG TY, A GUIDANCE COUNSELOR IN
A MIDDLE SCHOOL, IS ABOUT TO
RETURN TO THE HOMELAND HE BARELY
SURVIVED.
SO IS ARN CHORN POND, A SOCIAL
WORKER AND A MUSICIAN, WHO PLAYS
FOR THE GHOSTS OF THE KILLING
FIELDS TO BRING PEACE TO THEM
AND TO HIMSELF.
THEY AGREED TO LET US TAG ALONG.
IN CAMBODIA ITSELF, YOU DON'T
SEE THE GHOSTS-- NOT AT FIRST,
ANYWAY.
IN FACT, YOU'D BE HARD PRESSED
TO FIND A LAND THIS SERENE.
EVERY TIME THE SUN RISES OR SETS
OVER THE MEKONG, IT SKETCHES AN
ODE TO TRANQUILLITY.
BUT THE PEACE, PROFOUND AS IT
SEEMS, IS DECEPTIVE.
THE DEAD AND THEIR SPIRITS ARE
EVERYWHERE.
>> Seng Ty: IT REMINDS ME OF
WHEN I WAS A LITTLE BOY.
>> Simon: SENG TY WAS ABOUT
SEVEN YEARS OLD WHEN HE AND MOST
OF HIS FAMILY WERE PUT ON THESE
TRAINS.
>> Ty: AND I REMEMBER WE WERE SO
EXHAUSTED.
PEOPLE WERE PACKED IN THIS CAR,
AND I COULDN'T EVEN BREATHE.
I HAD TO STICK MY HEAD OUT TO
GET SOME AIR.
IT JUST REMINDS ME OF THE JEWISH
HOLOCAUST.
>> Simon: THE NAZI DEATH CAMPS
HAD NAMES THAT NO ONE WILL EVER
FORGET: AUSCHWITZ, BUCHENWALD,
TREBLINKA.
HAVE YOU HEARD OF TRABENGSVA?
THIS IS TRABENGSVA, AND CAMBODIA
IS LITTERED WITH HUNDREDS OF
PLACES JUST LIKE IT.
>> Arn Chorn Pond: THERE IS A
MASS GRAVE EVERYWHERE HERE.
>> Simon: ARN CHORN POND, THE
FLUTE PLAYER, HAS COME TO
REVISIT HIS CHILDHOOD, A TRIP
BACK IN TIME WITH NO NOSTALGIA.
>> Pond: I LIVED HERE TWO YEARS
OUT OF FOUR YEARS.
>> Simon: ARN WAS ABOUT TEN
YEARS OLD WHEN THE KHMER ROUGE
RIPPED HIM AWAY FROM HIS FAMILY
AND PUT HIM IN THIS TEMPLE.
>> Pond: AND THEY KILLED THREE
TIMES A DAY.
AND SOMETIMES FOUR TO FIVE TIMES
AT NIGHT, AND SOMETIMES IN THE
MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.
>> Simon: YOU THINK IT WAS RIGHT
HERE?
>> Ty: RIGHT HERE.
>> Simon: SENG TY LOST HIS
FATHER AND MOTHER, AS WELL AS
SEVEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS, TO
THE KHMER ROUGE.
THIS IS HIS FIRST TRIP BACK TO
THE VILLAGE WHERE HE WAS
ORPHANED...
THE KHMER DROPPED HER RIGHT AT
THIS PATH, RIGHT BY THESE
BUSHES?
>> Ty: YES, RIGHT THERE.
>> Simon: ...TO THIS ARID,
UNMARKED SPOT WHERE HE DUG A
SHALLOW GRAVE FOR HIS MOTHER.
AND YOU THINK IT WAS RIGHT
THERE?
>> Ty: YES.
>> Simon: WHY DON'T I LEAVE YOU
ALONE HERE?
(GUNFIRE)
>> Simon: WE'RE LESS THAN EIGHT
MILES FROM DOWNTOWN PHNOM PENH.
THE FIGHTING HAS BEEN GOING ON
FOR TWO DAYS NOW, AND THE
CAMBODIANS ARE GETTING BADLY
HURT.
I WAS ONE OF THE CORRESPONDENTS
REPORTING HOW IT ALL BEGAN, HOW
THE AMERICANS EXPORTED THE
VIETNAM WAR TO CAMBODIA,
DESTABILIZING THE OLD REGIME,
BRINGING IT UNDER FIRE, FIRST
FROM THE NORTH VIETNAMESE, THEN
FROM LOCAL COMMUNIST INSURGENTS
WHO CALLED THEMSELVES THE KHMER
ROUGE.
CIVILIAN CASUALTIES WERE NOT
ANNOUNCED.
BUT IT WAS ANOTHER CASE OF
DESTROYING A VILLAGE IN ORDER TO
SAVE IT.
WHEN THE KHMER ROUGE TOOK OVER
IN 1975, THE WORLD COULDN'T
IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN HERE.
LIKE OTHER ENGINEERS OF
GENOCIDE, THE KHMER ROUGE WERE
DRIVEN BY A DREAM OF PURITY.
THEY WANTED TO CLEANSE CAMBODIA
OF ITS CORRUPT CITY DWELLERS, SO
THEY EMPTIED OUT THE CITIES.
THEY WANTED A PURE PEASANT
SOCIETY, SO THEY KILLED ANYONE
WHO WAS EDUCATED OR LOOKED
EDUCATED.
EVERYONE ELSE WAS ENSLAVED IN
WORK CAMPS OR COMMUNAL FARMS.
BUT THE ONLY CROPS WERE FAMINE
AND TERROR.
>> Pond: THE MOST DIFFICULT FOR
ME WAS THE SMELL.
I CAN SMELL IT RIGHT NOW, THE
SMELL, THE BLOOD AND THE DIRT
TOGETHER.
>> Simon: ARN CHORN POND TOOK US
TO THE PLACE WHERE HE AND THE
OTHER CHILDREN WERE KEPT.
>> Pond: THERE IS SOME BLOOD
STAIN HERE, THE LAST TIME I SAW.
>> Simon: THE KHMER ROUGE DIDN'T
WASTE BULLETS ON THEIR VICTIMS.
ADULTS WERE KILLED WITH FARM
TOOLS USUALLY, SHARP BLOWS TO
THE BACK OF THE HEAD.
CHILDREN'S HEADS WERE BROKEN IN
MORE PRIMITIVE WAYS.
>> Pond: THEY TOOK THE HEAD...
THEY PUT THE HEAD, LIKE, INTO
THE WALL, AND THEY HIT THE HEAD
LIKE THAT AND THE BLOOD SPREAD
LIKE THAT.
THESE STILL ARE NOT... THIS IS
STILL BLOOD.
THIS BLACK MARK HERE... BLOOD.
HERE, BLOOD.
I PROBABLY CANNOT AND WILL NOT
FORGET IT, BECAUSE I HAVE
DREAMS.
EVEN NOW I HAVE DREAMS ABOUT
THIS PLACE, AND PROBABLY I HAVE
TO LIVE WITH IT FOR THE REST OF
MY LIFE.
>> I'M SURPRISED MANY PEOPLE
COME NOW.
THEY DON'T CLEAN THE PLACE.
>> Ty: THIS IS THE HOUSE.
>> Simon: SENG CALLS IT A HOUSE.
IT WAS A HUT, REALLY, WHERE HE
AND HIS PARENTS, PROFESSIONALS
FROM THE AREA OF THE CAPITAL,
PHNOM PENH, WERE IMPRISONED.
>> Ty: 30 PEOPLE IN THAT HOUSE.
I'M THE ONLY ONE LEFT.
THIS IS WHERE THEY TOOK MY
FATHER.
>> Simon: YOU SAW THEM TAKE YOUR
FATHER?
>> Ty: IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
NIGHT.
>> Simon: WHAT DID YOUR MOTHER
TELL YOU?
>> Ty: NOT TO CRY, NOT TO SHOW
EMOTION.
>> Simon: BECAUSE IF YOU SHOWED
EMOTION MAYBE THEY'D KILL YOU?
>> Ty: YES.
THEY'D KILL MY MOTHER, THEY'D
KILL ME.
>> Simon: ONE YEAR AFTER SENG'S
FATHER WAS KILLED, HIS MOTHER
STARVED TO DEATH.
>> Ty: WE DIDN'T HAVE FOOD TO
EAT AT ALL.
>> Simon: YOU WERE ALONE.
>> Ty: ALONE.
THERE WERE 30 PEOPLE.
I AM THE ONLY ONE LEFT.
>> Simon: ASIDE FROM THE KHMER
ROUGE CADRES THEMSELVES, THERE
IS NO ONE IN CAMBODIA OVER THE
AGE OF 20 WHO WAS NOT A VICTIM.
>> Kek Galabru: ALMOST ALL THE
SAME STORY.
>> Simon: KEK GALABRU IS A HUMAN
RIGHTS ACTIVIST WHO IS
DOCUMENTING EXPERIENCES OF WOMEN
SURVIVORS.
SHE DOESN'T WANT TO WRITE A
BOOK; SHE WANTS INDICTMENTS.
>> Galabru: MOST OF THE WOMEN
LOST THEIR HUSBANDS, ALMOST ALL
CHILDREN.
SOME HAD EIGHT CHILDREN, AND
THEN ALL THE CHILDREN DIED.
AND THEY LIVE HERE WITHOUT
NOTHING.
>> Simon: WITH SO MANY GROWNUPS
KILLED, WITH ALMOST HIS ENTIRE
FAMILY WIPED OUT, HOW COULD A
CHILD LIKE SENG SURVIVE?
YOU TOLD ME HOW THE OTHER PEOPLE
DIED.
BUT HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT
THAT, OF THE 30 PEOPLE IN THAT
HOUSE, YOU SURVIVED?
DO YOU THINK THAT HAS ANY
MEANING?
>> Ty: I THINK I WAS THE BRAVEST
ONE IN THAT HOUSE.
>> Simon: THE WHICH?
>> Ty: BRAVEST.
>> Simon: YOU THINK YOU WERE THE
BRAVEST?
>> SENG: YES.
BECAUSE I KNEW I'D RATHER JUST
TO GO... JUST TO GET KILLED WITH
A FULL STOMACH.
SO I HAD TO SNEAK OUT AT NIGHT
TO GO AND STEAL FOOD.
>> Simon: YOU WEREN'T GOING TO
DIE LIKE YOUR MOTHER?
>> Ty: I'M NOT GOING TO GO THAT
WAY.
I PREFER THEY KILL ME WITH MY...
WITH A FULL STOMACH, FULL OF
FOOD IN MY STOMACH.
I PREFER THAT WAY.
>> Simon: MIRACULOUSLY, THIS
LONELY LITTLE BOY WITH BIG EARS
MADE IT THROUGH JUNGLES AND OVER
MOUNTAINS TO A REFUGEE CAMP IN
THAILAND.
HE WAS EVENTUALLY ADOPTED BY A
-AMILY IN THE UNITED STATES.
>> Pond: SOMETIMES THEY JUST DO
IT HERE.
>> Simon: AND ARN CHORN POND?
HE WAS ALSO ADOPTED AND BROUGHT
TO THE STATES.
BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HE KNEW BACK
IN THAT TEMPLE IS UNDERNEATH
THIS ORANGE GROVE NOW.
ARN IS ALIVE, HOWEVER, IN PART
AT LEAST BECAUSE HIS CAPTORS
WANTED ENTERTAINMENT.
>> Pond: AND THEY CHOSE FIVE
KIDS TO PLAY MUSIC, AND I WAS
THE NUMBER ONE.
AND THE OTHER... ONE KID WAS
NUMBER TWO.
AND THE REST WAS THREE, FOUR,
GONE TO THE ORANGE FIELD.
>> Simon: YOU PLAYED MUSIC TO
SURVIVE?
>> Pond: I JUST PLAYED THE FLUTE
FOR THEM HERE.
THEY GAVE ME A LITTLE MORE FOOD
TO EAT, AND THEY WERE NOT
KILLING ME.
>> Simon: NOT MANY GOT OUT OF
THAT TEMPLE ALIVE.
NEITHER DID PRISONERS FROM THIS
FORMER SCHOOL IN PHNOM PENH, THE
NATION'S CAPITAL.
OF THE 20,000 WHO PASSED THROUGH
HERE, ONLY SEVEN SURVIVED.
AND THERE WAS A RITUAL.
EVERY VICTIM WAS TORTURED BEFORE
BEING PUT TO DEATH.
TODAY THE PRISON IS A MUSEUM:
PAINTINGS OF THE PROCESS,
PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE PRISONERS.
>> Youk Chhang: THIS IS ONE OF
THE FAMOUS PHOTOGRAPHS BECAUSE
YOU SEE A CHILD THAT SHE'S
HOLDING WHILE TAKING THE
PHOTOGRAPH.
>> Simon: YOUK CHHANG LOST MUCH
OF HIS FAMILY DURING THE
MASSACRES BEFORE HE ESCAPED ALL
THE WAY TO DALLAS, TEXAS.
>> Chhang: WE JUST DON'T WANT TO
PUT A PHOTOGRAPH AND POST A
QUESTION MARK.
WE WANT TO EXPLAIN, TELL THE
TRUTH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.
>> Simon: HE HAS RETURNED TO
PHNOM PENH TO DIG UP DOCUMENTARY
EVIDENCE, WHICH HE'LL TURN OVER
TO PROSECUTORS IF AND WHEN THERE
ARE PROSECUTIONS.
>> Simon: WAIT A MINUTE.
THESE ARE... SO IT'S... AND IS
THAT A FINGERPRINT?
>> Chhang: FINGERPRINT OF THE
PRISONER.
AFTER THEY CONFESS, THEY FORCE
OR THEY ASK THE PRISONER TO...
TO CONFIRM ALL THESE STATEMENT.
>> Simon: OBVIOUSLY OBTAINED
AFTER TORTURE.
>> Chhang: YES, YES, YES.
>> Simon: AND TELL ME BASICALLY
WHAT THE CONFESSION SAYS.
>> Chhang: THE CONFESSION
BASICALLY TELL THE HISTORY OF
THE PRISONER AND HOW THEY WERE
IN WAR WITH THE PARTY AND HOW
THEY BETRAY THE PARTIES AND HOW
THEY SPEAK OTHER LANGUAGES,
WHICH IS THE WRONG THING.
>> Simon: THAT'S A CRIME?
>> Chhang: THAT'S A CRIME.
>> Simon: TO SPEAK A FOREIGN
LANGUAGE?
>> Chhang: EXACTLY.
OR DRINKING WATER WITHOUT
PERMISSION OR HAVING SEX WITHOUT
PERMISSION OR TALKING TO A
FRIEND WITHOUT PERMISSION IS A
CRIME.
THEY CONSIDER AS A CRIME.
FROM THERE, THEY JUSTIFIED OF
THEIR KILLING TO THE PRISONERS.
>> Simon: BUT WHY WOULD THE
LEADERSHIP CARE WHETHER A
PRISONER HAD DRUNK A GLASS OF
WATER OR HAD SEX OR HAD DONE
SOMETHING AGAINST THE RULES?
IT DOESN'T GIVE THEM ANY
INTELLIGENCE.
>> Chhang: IT SEEMED TO ME THAT
THEY WANTED TO PURIFY THE
SOCIETY, INCLUDING THE BRAIN.
AND THE BRAIN MUST BE PURE, MUST
BE CLEAN, MUST BE OBEDIENT TO
THE REVOLUTION.
>> Simon: YOU KNOW, I'LL TELL
YOU WHAT SHOCKS ME.
I MEAN, WE KNEW QUITE A BIT
ABOUT THE KHMER ROUGE.
>> Chhang: YES.
>> Simon: WE KNEW THEY WERE
KILLERS, WE KNEW THEY WERE
SADISTIC, WE KNEW THEY WERE
BRUTAL.
I DID NOT KNOW THEY WERE
BUREAUCRATS.
>> Chhang: THEY'RE VERY
BUREAUCRAT.
YOU KNOW, WITHOUT THIS FILE, WE
CANNOT CONVICT THE KHMER ROUGE
LEADERS.
WE CONVICT THEM WITH THEIR OWN
FILES.
>> Simon: THE FILES CONFIRM THAT
THE GENOCIDE HAD BEEN
METICULOUSLY PLANNED BY THE
KHMER ROUGE LEADER, POL POT,
LONG BEFORE HE TOOK POWER.
HE PUT IT ALL IN WRITING, A
CAMBODIAN "MEIN KAMP"
IT WAS HIS DEATH LAST YEAR THAT
INSPIRED SOME OF HIS LIEUTENANTS
TO TURN THEMSELVES IN.
OTHERS WERE CAPTURED.
AND THEY COULD ALL BE BROUGHT TO
TRIAL NEXT WEEK.
THEY'RE NOT HIDING OUT IN THE
JUNGLE ANYMORE.
THEY'RE RIGHT HERE.
ACROSS THIS MINEFIELD, JUST ON
THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT TREE
LINE, THERE IS, WELL, A HOUSING
COMPLEX, A VERY NICE ONE.
THE RESIDENTS ARE TWO SURVIVING
TOP LEADERS OF THE KHMER ROUGE,
TOTALLY UNBOTHERED BY THE
GOVERNMENT IN PHNOM PENH OR THE
WORLD AT LARGE.
WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU PAY THEM A
VISIT?
LET'S GIVE IT A TRY.
GATES OPENING!
NO, GATES CLOSING.
THE MEN WE WANTED TO DROP IN ON
WERE KHIEU SAMPAN, THE NOMINAL
PRESIDENT OF THE KHMER ROUGE,
AND NUON CHEA, THE EX-PRIME
MINISTER.
THEY SURRENDERED CHRISTMAS DAY
LAST YEAR TO THE CAMBODIAN
GOVERNMENT.
INSTEAD OF SLAPPING THEM IN
JAIL, HOWEVER, CAMBODIA'S
CURRENT LEADER, HUN SEN,
WELCOMED THEM AS LOST BROTHERS.
BUT THEY DIDN'T MAKE US FEEL
WELCOME-- NOT AT ALL.
>> Translator: THEY DON'T WANT
YOU TO FILM.
>> Guide: THEY DON'T ALLOW YOU
TO GO IN.
>> THEY TOLD US WE SHOULD COME
AND VISIT THEM HERE.
>>
AFTER FIVE MINUTES OF ARGUING,
ARMED GUARDS TOLD US TO GET
LOST.
THANK YOU.
SOON AFTER THESE GUYS HANDED
THEMSELVES IN LAST YEAR,
GOVERNMENT FORCES CAPTURED TWO
OF THE MOST INFAMOUS KHMER ROUGE
HENCHMEN.
THEY ARE NOW IN JAIL IN PHNOM
PENH.
BUT WHY IS IT THAT THE MOVEMENT
TO PROSECUTE THEM AND THE OTHERS
IS BEING SPEARHEADED NOT BY THE
CAMBODIANS, WHO SUFFERED AT
THEIR HANDS, BUT BY THE UNITED
STATES, WHICH HAS CAMBODIAN
BLOOD ON ITS OWN HANDS?
WE'LL LET YOU KNOW WHEN "60
MINUTES II" COMES BACK.