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MR. SPEAKER.
THANK YOU.
>> The Speaker: THANK YOU.
FURTHER DEBATE.
THE MEMBER FOR BARRIE.
>> THANK YOU, SPEAKER.
IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE ABLE
TO STAND TODAY AND SPEAK ON
BILL 105, SUPPORTING SMALL
BUSINESSES ACT.
AS WE KNOW, THIS AMENDS THE
EMPLOYEE HEALTH TAX ACT FROM
400,000 IN 2013.
THERE ARE HOLD WHICH COULD
BE A PROBLEM AND PROVIDES
SPECIAL RULES FOR REGISTERED
CHARITIES.
SPEAKER, THIS IS SOMETHING I
KNOW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT.
MY FAMILY'S BEEN IN SMALL
BUS FOR OVER FOUR
GENERATIONS, STARTING EARLY
DAYS SELLING TRACTORS IN
SASKATCHEWAN IN THE 1920s
AND EVENTUALLY AFTER THE
DUST BOWL MOVING INTO
ONTARIO AND MOVING INTO THE
CAR BUSINESS, SELLING
STUDEBAKERS, RIGHT UP TO
TOYOTAS TODAY.
IT IS INTERESTING, THOUGH,
TO SEE HOW A BUSINESS GROWS.
I'VE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO
START AND GROW MY OWN SMALL
BUSINESS BEFORE I HAD THE
PRIVILEGE OF TAKING A SEAT
IN THIS HOUSE AND I GOT AN
IDEA OF WHAT IT TAKES TO
GROW A BUSINESS AND TO
EMPLOY PEOPLE AND THE
CHALLENGES THAT ARE ATTACHED
WITH THAT.
IN FACT, I REMEMBER
DISTINCTLY AS A CHILD COMING
HOME ONE DAY AND MY HOUSE
WAS FOR SALE BECAUSE MY DAD
HAD TO BE ABLE TO MAKE
PAYROLL.
PART OF THE REASON, IF YOU
TALK TO A LOT OF BUSINESS
PEOPLE -- AND I DO.
EVERY SUMMER WHENEVER I'M
HOME, I MAKE SURE I GO AND
TALK TO ALL THE BUSINESS
PEOPLE IN BARRIE AND FIND
OUT WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES
THAT THEY SEE THAT PREVENTS
THEM -- THE QUESTION I WAS
ASKING, WHAT PREVENTS YOU
FROM HIRING MORE PEOPLE IS
THIS WHAT PREVENTS YOU FROM
GROWING TO THE SIZE YOU WANT
TO BE, PLOWING THE NUMBER OF
PEOPLE AND CREATING THE
AMOUNT OF PROFITS YOU WANT
TO HAVE SO YOU CAN AFFORD TO
HIRE MORE PEOPLE?
THE NUMBER ONE THING THEY
TELL ME IS THAT THE
REGULATORY BURDENS THAT THEY
HAVE.
THE PAYROLL TAXES THAT THEY
HAVE.
AND JUST THE KIND OF
PLETHORA OF RED TAPE THAT
THEY ENCOUNTER ON A
DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.
A LOT OF THEM SIMPLY DON'T
HAVE THE RESOURCES TO BE
ABLE TO DEAL WITH THESE IN
AN EFFICIENT MANNER.
THEY END UP DOING -- THE
OWNERS END UP DOING IT FOR
THEMSELVES IN MANY CASES,
ESPECIALLY SMALL BUSINESSES.
AND, YOU KNOW, FRANKLY THEY
SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON DOING
WHAT THEY DO BEST, WHICH IS
EMPLOYING PEOPLE AND
CREATING JOBS IN OUR
COMMUNITIES.
AND IT IS I THINK IMPORTANT,
IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS BILL,
TO REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT IS
THE ENGINE THAT DRIVES OUR
ECONOMY.
THE ENGINE THAT DRIVES OUR
ECONOMY IS SMALL BUSINESS.
I MEAN IT IS, YOU KNOW, A
SHAME WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE
MAJOR EMPLOYERS LIKE HEINZ
AND CATERPILLAR AND ANY
NUMBER OF THEM, IN BARRIE I
COULD SAY MOLSON'S, PRESSTIA,
GENERAL TIRE THAT HAVE ALL
LEFT AND GUTTED OUR
MANUFACTURING ECONOMY IN MY
OWN TOWN.
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS,
THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN
ONTARIO ARE EMPLOYED BY
BUSINESSES WITH FOUR OR LESS
EMPLOYEES.
THAT'S AN INCREDIBLE
STATEMENT TO MAKE.
WE FOCUS A LOT HERE IN THIS
PLACE AND AS POLITICIANS IN
GENERAL AT EVERY LEVEL.
CERTAINLY EVEN MEDIA TALKS
ABOUT BIG BUSINESSES GET
LOTS OF ATTENTION AND SO
THEY SHOULD.
IT'S VERY SAD OUR
MANUFACTURING SECTOR'S
GETTING GUTTED THE WAY IT IS
BECAUSE OF THE HIGH HYDRO
COSTS, BECAUSE OF THE HIGH
PAYROLL TAXES AND BECAUSE
SOME OF THE BAD PRACTICES OF
THIS GOVERNMENT OVER THE
PAST 10 YEARS.
BUT THE FACT REMAINS WE NEED
TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THOSE
THAT EMPLOY MOST PEOPLE IN
ONTARIO, WHICH IS SMALL
BUSINESS.
AND EVEN THOUGH THIS THERE
ARE HOLD TALKS ABOUT A $5
MILLION THERE ARE HOLD FOR
PAYROLL TAX, IT SOUNDS LIKE
A LOT.
IT IS A LOT $5 MILLION.
LET'S NOT KID ANYONE.
$5 MILLION IS A LOT.
THE FACT IS, THOUGH, A LOT
OF THESE BUSINESSES, SMALL
BUSINESSES, FAMILY OWNED
BUSINESSES MEET THAT
THRESHOLD VERY QUICKLY.
WHEN YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW,
BETWEEN 30 AND 50 WELL PAID
EMPLOYEES WORKING FOR YOU,
YOU'RE GOING TO MEET THAT
THRESHOLD VERY, VERY FAST.
AND THIS BILL DOESN'T HELP
THEM.
THIS BILL PUTS THEM IN A
DIFFICULT POSITION.
WE KNOW WHAT WE'VE BEEN
SAYING ABOUT THIS BILL FROM
THE VERY BEGINNING IS THAT
IT JUST DOESN'T GO FAR
ENOUGH.
IN FACT IT'S I WOULD SAY
WELL-INTENTIONED.
THERE ARE SOME GOOD THINGS
IN THERE.
THE PROBLEM IS, SPEAKER, IT
DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH.
IT DOESN'T DO ENOUGH TO BE
ABLE TO HELP THOSE
BUSINESSES LIKE I SAID DO
WHAT THEY DO BEST, WHICH IS
EMPLOY PEOPLE AND GROW.
I DON'T THINK ANYONE GETS IN
SMALL BUSINESS TO REMAIN THE
SAME SIZE.
I DON'T THINK ANYONE GETS IN
SMALL BUSINESS TO EMPLOY ONE
OR TWO PEOPLE OR JUST
THEMSELVES.
THEY GET IN IT BECAUSE THEY
WANT TO BE ACTIVE IN THEIR
COMMUNITIES.
THEY GET IN BECAUSE THEY
WANT TO PROVIDE JOBS FOR
PEOPLE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.
THEY GET IN IT BECAUSE THEY
WANT TO BE PROFITABLE.
IF WE NICKEL-AND-DIME THEM
AT EVERY TURN AND MAKE IT
MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO
DO BUSINESS LIKE THIS BILL
DOES.
IT ACTUALLY -- IN THIS CASE,
IT ACTUALLY -- THE EMPLOYERS
TOLD US WHAT THEY NEEDED.
THEY WERE FLAT OUT IGNORED
BY LIBERALS AND THE N.D.P.
WHEN IT CAME TO AMENDMENTS
AND VOTED AGAINST OUR
$800,000 AMENDMENT.
OUR AMENDMENT WAS TO
INCREASE THE EMPLOYER HEALTH
TAX EXEMPTION TO $800,000,
WHICH WAS CALLED FOR BY THE
CFIB AND IT WOULD HAVE SAVED
SMALL BUSINESSES HOUSES OF
DOLLARS ANNUALLY.
THIS COULD BE THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN THEM HIRING ANOTHER
PERSON OR NOT.
SO THIS REALLY -- THIS NEW
LEGISLATION MEANS BUSINESSES
WITH $5 MILLION MORE IN
PAYROLL WILL NO LONGR BE
ABLE TO CLAIM A TAX
EXEMPTION ON THE FIRST
$400,000 OF THEIR PAYROLL,
INCREASES TAX -- INCREASING
TAXES ON FAMILY OWNED
BUSINESSES LIKE CANADIAN
TIRE, WHICH IS IN MANY CASES
A SMALL FAMILY OWNED
BUSINESS, BY THE DEFINITION.
THE INDEPENDENT GROCER, FOR
EXAMPLE, OR THE LOCAL CAR
DEALER.
5,000.
WHY THE TWO OTHER PARTIES
VOTED AGAINST OUR AMENDMENT
TO ELIMINATE THIS $5 MILLION
CAP IS REALLY QUITE
CONFUSING.
I THINK WHAT WE'RE DOING
WITH THIS CAP ISN'T TRYING
TO STYMIE THE BILL AS MUCH
AS WE ARE TRYING TO CREATE
JOBS.
WE'RE TRYING TO OPEN THE
DOOR TO LET THESE SMALL
BUSINESSES THAT EMPLOY THE
MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN
ONTARIO GROW AND WE EMPLOY
MORE PEOPLE WE PUT MORE
MONEY INTO OUR ECONOMY.
MORE PEOPLE PAYING TAXES.
WE GROW.
SO I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT
THE RESISTANCE IS TO THIS
AMENDMENT.
I THINK IT PROBABLY SHOULD
HAVE BEEN FAIRLY INNOCUOUS
ONE REALLY.
I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S STUN --
STUB DORIN -- STUBBORNNESS
OR SOME OTHER GAMES ARE
BEING PLAYED ALONG THE WAY.
CERTAINLY FROM YOU --
FRUSTRATING AT A TIME WHEN
THESE SMALL BUSINESSES, LIKE
I SAID BEFORE, THAT EMPLOY
THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE
IN OUR ECONOMY, ARE -- NEED
THE HELP.
THEY'RE ALREADY GETTING
NICKEL AND DIMED TO DEBT
ON -- DEATH ON THEIR HYDRO
VAITS -- RATES AND
DEVELOPMENT CHARGES ON
MUNICIPALITIES.
YOU NAME IT.
YOU TURN EVERY SINGLE CORNER
WHETHER IT'S WSIB OR
EMPLOYER TAXATION.
WE ALREADY HAVE THE MOST
PAYROLL TAXES IN CANADA.
$9,970 AND THAT'S SOURCED BY
THE WAY IF ANYONE WANTS TO
KNOW IS THE "TORONTO STAR."
SO WE KNOW THAT WE'RE NOT
BEING COMPETITIVE.
WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT IN
ONTARIO WE'RE NOT JUST
COMPETING WITH THE OTHER
PROVINCES, WHICH BY THE WAY
WE'RE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE
PILE.
WE'RE COMPETING WITH THE
UNITED STATES.
WE'RE COMPETING WITH ALL
THOSE -- LET'S JUST START
WITH THE BORDER STATES.
LET'S START WITH NEW YORK,
OHIO, MICHIGAN AND INDIANA
AND LET IT'S --'S TALK ABOUT,
YOU KNOW, ALL THOSE STATES
THAT HAVE MADE SOME PRETTY
DRAM TUCK CHANGES TO THEIR
TAXATION STRUCTURE TORQUES
THEIR LABOUR LAWS, TO ANY
NUMBER.
YOU PICK IT BECAUSE THEY
REALIZE THEY NEED TO BE
COMPETITIVE AND MOBILE.
THEY NEED TO CHANGE.
WE NEED TO CHANGE THE WAY WE
DO BUSINESS IN ONTARIO OR
WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE
TO CATCH UP WITH THEM.
THEY'RE RUNNING AWAY WITH
THIS.
NOT TO MENTION OUR FOREIGN
COMPETITORS.
WE'RE A GLOBAL ECONOMY NOW.
WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO
COMPETE.
SMALL BUSINESSES EVEN.
I TALKED TO A NUMBER OF
SMALL BUSINESSES.
I'LL GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE.
MOORE PACKAGING IN BARRIE
WHO GAVE ME AN OPPORTUNITY
TO CUT MY TEETH WORKING FOR
THEM AS A YOUNG MAN.
NOT THAT I'M STILL NOT
YOUNG.
BUT WHEN GAVE ME MY FIRST
OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH
THEM AS A HUMAN RESOURCES
MANAGER EARLY ON.
A COMPANY THAT EMPLOYS THREE
AND 400 PEOPLE.
ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW WENT
FROM BEING A LOCAL BUSINESS
THAT WAS IMPORTING PACKAGING
PRODUCTS ACROSS ONTARIO AND
IN FACT CANADA IS NOW
COMPETING WITH COMPANIES
FROM CHINA, BECAUSE THEY CAN
IMPORT AND DEVELOP THESE
PRODUCTS FASTER WITH LESS
RED TAPE AND GET THEM TO A
TORONTO MARKET AS FAST OR
EVEN FASTER THAN THEY CAN,
BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN
ABLE TO MAKE A CAPITAL
INVESTMENT THAT WOULD ALLOW
THEM TO BE ABLE TO GET THEIR
MARKET TO TORONTO.
90 KILOMETRES DOWN THE ROAD,
AS FAST AS IT TAKES THEIR
COMPETITORS FROM CHINA TO
GET IT FROM OVERSEAS.
THIS IS THE KIND OF
COMPETITION TITION THAT WE
NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET OUR
FEET INTO.
WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO
PROVIDE OUR BUSINESSES IN
ONTARIO WITH THE ABILITY TO
BE ABLE TO FIGHT BACK, BE
COMPETITIVE, PROVIDE A
QUALITY PRODUCT, GET MORE
PEOPLE TO WORK IN HIGH
PAYING JOBS IN ONTARIO.
THIS BILL LIMITS THEIR
ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO DO
THAT.
AND FRANKLY IT'S VERY, VERY
DID YOU SAY APPOINTING.
LIKE WE HAVE -- THIS BILL IN
FACT IS ANOTHER WAY OF
ADDRESSING THE BILL.
LIKE I SAID, I THINK IT'S
INTENDED WELL AND IT HAS
POTENTIAL ACTUALLY TO BE A
VERY PRODUCTIVE BILL BUT IT
HAS A MINUSCULE BENEFIT FOR
ONTARIO BUSINESSES IN THE
OVERALL FRAMEWORK.
WHICH IS A SHAME.
I MEAN WE NEED TO DO MORE
THAN WINDOW-DRESSING AT THIS
POINT.
WE NEED TO DO MORE THAN YES,
WE CARE.
WE NEED TO ACTUALLY DO
SOMETHING OF SUBSTANCE IN
HERE.
LIBERAL POLICY, TRIPLE RATES
IN THE PAST DECADE.
INCREASE TAXES THROUGH WSIB.
COLLEGE OF TRADES AMONG
OTHERS AND DRAMATICALLY
INCREASE RED TAPE REGULATORY
BURDEN ON BUSINESSES.
I KNOW LOCAL BUSINESSES I'VE
TALKED TO WANT TO MAKE SOME
EXPANSIONS AND THEY WON'T DO
IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE
REGULATORY BURDENS,
DEVELOPMENT CHARGES GET PUT
ON THEM BUT STILL THE AMOUNT
OF CHARGES WILL PREVENT THEM
IN THIS CASE FROM HIRING 60
MORE PEOPLE.
THEY'RE GOING TO GO DOWN THE
ROAD TO DO THAT.
THIS BILL DOESN'T HELP THOSE
PEOPLE.
DOESN'T HELP JOBS IN ONTARIO
AND WE NEED TO FIX THAT TO
MAKE IT WORK.
>> The Speaker: THANK YOU.
QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS.
THE MEMBER FOR
ALGOMA-MANITOULIN.
>> THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
'TIS THE SEASON TO BE JOLLY.
I ALSO WANT TO WISH
EVERYBODY A VERY MERRY
CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW
YEAR'S.
EVERYBODY I HOPE THEY'RE
GOING TO BE SAFE AND ENJOY
YOUR HOLIDAYS AND ALL OF THE
PEOPLE IN ALGOMA-MANITOULIN.
I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO
COMING TO THE VARIOUS
SUPPERS.
AS YOU CAN SEE, THE FOOD YOU
COOK FOR ME BACK IN ALGOMA
MANITOULIN AND I CERTAINLY
ENJOY BEING INVITED TO YOUR
TABLES.
PARDON?
[SPEAKING IN FRENCH]
>> Interpreter: I WOULD LIKE
TO SAY FROM MY FRIEND, THE
MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION.
WE'VE RESOLVED A BIT OF
PROBLEMS IN
ALGOMA-MANITOULIN AND I HAVE
GOOD NEWS FROM MY RIDING.
I WANT TO WISH EVERYONE A
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY
NEW YEAR TO ALL THE FAMILIES,
AND I HAVE TO TALK ABOUT A
WILL NOW -- A BILL NOW.
>> THIS BILL DOESN'T EXACTLY
GO FAR ENOUGH.
THERE ARE OTHER MEASURES WE
CAN CERTAINLY BE HELPING NOT
ONLY SMALL BUSINESS BUT
ONTARIANS AS A WHOLE BY
LOOKING -- IT'S GREAT TO SEE
THAT THE EXEMPTION ON THE
$400,000 IS GOING TO BE
INCREASED TO 450 AND IS
GOING TO MEAN SOMETHING FOR
SMALL BUSINESSES.
BUT FOR THE LARGER ONES WHO
ACTUALLY DON'T NEED THIS CUT,
WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT
KEEPING THAT REVENUE SO THAT
WE CAN SERVICE ONTARIANS AND
PROVIDE THOSE MUCH NEEDED
REVENUE DOLLARS FOR THIS
PROVINCE.
AND WE SHOULD ALSO LOOK AT
CLOSING THE CORPORATE TAX
LOOK HOLES AT THAT ARE GOING
TO BE IMPLEMENTED THROUGH
THE H.S.T. INPUT TAX.
THAT IS SOMETHING NEW THAT
IS GOING TO BE CREATED THAT
WE CAN ACTUALLY SAVE DOLLARS
AND KEEP THOSE DOLLARS IN
THE POCKETS.
BUT IF WE WANT TO REALLY
HELP SMALL BUSINESS, WHY
DON'T WE LOOK AT THE CUTS
THAT HAVE HAPPENED THROUGH
THE KIOSKS THROUGH SERVICE
ONTARIO?
THAT IS HAVING A HUGE
ECONOMIC IMPACT ON SMALL
BUSINESSES ACROSS NORTHERN
ONTARIO AND ACROSS THIS
PROVINCE BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE
CONTINUOUSLY DEALING WITH
LICENSING ISSUES AND NOT
HAVING SERVICE OR ACCESS TO
THEIR SERVICE ONTARIO
COUNTERS.
SO IF WE'RE GOING TO BE
REALLY SINCERE ABOUT HELPING
ONTARIANS IN SMALL BUSINESS,
LET'S LOOK AT THE ROOT CAUSE
OF WHAT'S CAUSING --
>> The Speaker: THANK YOU.
QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS.
THE MINISTER OF LABOUR.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH,
SPEAKER.
FIRST OF ALL TO YOU AND
THROUGH YOU TO ALL THE
MEMBERS, MERRY CHRISTMAS AND
HAPPY NEW YEAR.
IT'S BEEN A GREAT PRIVILEGE
TO SERVE IN THIS LEGISLATURE
ON BEHALF OF THE GREAT
COMMUNITY OF OTTAWA CENTRE
AND I'M VERY MUCH LOOKING
FORWARD TO CONTINUE THE
SERVICES IN THE NEW YEAR AND
I WISH EVERYONE IN THEIR
FAMILIES A VERY MERRY
CHRISTMAS AND A VERY
PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR TO COME.
SPEAKER, GREAT OPPORTUNITY
TO SPEAK ABOUT BILL 105,
SUPPORTING SMALL BUSINESS
ACT.
YESTERDAY WHEN I SPOKE ON
THIS BILL -- AND BY THE WAY
THIS BILL HAS NOW GONE ABOUT
22 HOURS OF DEBATE.
I THINK WE'VE HEARD ALL THE
POINT OF VIEW A FEW TIMES