Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
now all we want to go to a great guests we have three guys one call is a
professor at university of michigan
one of the top experts in the middle east in the country and author of the
book indeed
in the muslim world
by one called for school
went back to the address
thank the lord i really
having you on you know i know you are about a run of course in the book and
how
the u_s_ should engage them it appear that obama was headed down that path and
we had to be died of a sea change event in iran
do you think that we should react to what i do to be in illegitimate iranian
government at this point
uh... it had to tell you the truth the last eight years with the new york
conservative so forth
as pushed me to be a little bit more of a realist used to be
uh... you know uh...
would ordinarily fighter and kissinger but uh...
effect that chapter two
game you have to play
with the cases on the board
and the diplomacy is exactly the same way
and uh... you know reflection there's something to that unless you're going to
go around crusading against everybody all the time
things are
settling down in the wrong it appears that uh...
protest movement is
moving from the street to other kinds of uh... long-term political organizing
living trying to do it as a set of problems with the rug that day camp fees
uh... put off for ignored and that that is that they're just going to have to
deal with the government to think
before we move on turning on the ground
suger police etcetera
the besieged going around arresting
along with yourself
or are they kind of letting them be
because they don't want to start up any more anger
or whatever
street protests
that they will target the people who are
uh... they think of the ringleaders of buddhist reporter
third so that will be every time the protester rats
all of those people are
uh... held and then delete
uh... some of them are views
cap it's a bad situation that though you would like to trace neeraj had nothing
to write home about for a very long time
uh... and does so
olympic picture
a lot of people that have were arrested the earlier have been let go on the
other hand there's been very serious allegations suffered serious people of
uh...
have tortured
uh... and uh... then there are still a lot of people in jail including
you know uh... what i'd mind does among
of the concerns that there are
our partners in jail for blocking and uh... some of the baby p mistreated
of putting it out at the finger
collateral are the fifth
wildly the protest
against what we're done partners you their skills we had do you think like
that
the his system
so though i think the two thousand four parliamentary elections were more or
less stolen
the two thousand five presidential election probably was concurred with
uh... you know from from my point of u_s_ somebody who says we have to engage
that government
peters
business as usual the government cited with switched changes only that we we've
cds
statement
really very significant popular protest against preaches
help us in the south
leverage is the people's had told me hey gee i don't see
that you you don't know without the fear that the five elections
and fairly clear that they manipulate it so
about movies that would come in second in those hedrick again stresses done in
the runoff
didn't believe for a second that he'd actually legitimately one that vote
wife
people actually believe that
and
uh... i don't know if i write about that
well i think you're right about it argues rhetorically
although i would think that the be evidence
or tinkering with the two thousand for parliamentary elections and even
stronger
i think the uh... part of the pro-ltte the reform effort than winning those
directions are
he had not if they want to two thousand
and the parliament they had one both nineteen ninety seven two thousand one
presidency
and other hardliners
uh...
kentucky and others
engineer
process provides thirty five hundred candidates for just excluded from
running
because they could be the illogical that next time
as you have any
innovative garments for the fraud for awhile in iraq
how much is there any people on the senate
for this election
we wanted people understood exactly what they've done to them which was that
causes the system had this
small corner
of partial democracy where people could
spoke for parliament they could vote for the presidency
uh... and out they had from ninety-seven forwards
uh...
you'd think that
small corner of democracy to try to
uh... make a case for more individual liberties
and two other hardliners so i thought would happen if they were very upset
that that they use their
control of the more authoritarian clerical but the government
close down the newspapers close down the
movement and ultimately engineered
uh... i hard-line takeover of parliament just by that one of those reforms front
uh... and then uh... as you said i i i think
they concurred uh... at the margins at least with the two thousand five
presidential election putting in
permanent job as president president so
there's been enough i kind of democratic
movement towards change which was been
very brutally repressed
and uh...
so i think
one of the questions people had was
what whatever is out
victory in two thousand five
a side of the bankruptcy of the regime or was it that the reformists were so
discouraged by what they predicted that that they did come out
boat
and so they cashed it
despite coming out of voting very large numbers
and uh... then based on yet
break
party so
the question of course then comes back to what we start with which is what do
we
your referring and
we're trying to present one called the writes a blog informed comment
which is a wonderful dot com and of course not all through the book the use
of muslim world so professor paul
or he hears a think tank
i t
you know i can see in the new york on starving they're incredibly foolish not
deal with iran for the here's a bush wasn't incharge i've got a great deal
from them after the rack warren
and she turned it down because it is a lot of talk to you will list one of the
dumbest things he's done a nessa
tough thing to say that changes are so many dumb things
another hand
these guys are at this point now clearly a dictatorship so we have two different
goals here in my mind one is but we have to engage them her to have talks about
their nuclear program is cetera another hand i would love to undermined them
and the question is how do we undermine ending an actual democracy in iran
and especially when we're trying to engage them at the same time
okay so uh...
i think one of the strength of the regime and one of the things that helps
keep it for terence
is its relative i pollution from the rest of the world
uh... if you can't come it's no
at world opinion just
not connected with the world
the more attention to put on
its institutions its cos its banks and so forth who collective connected with
international community and the more
independent and dependent id has
to treats people who work with
so i actually think
that
negotiating with them
trying to draw them into the international community
auto
i have an effect over time underlining
uh... and i think we think this with other reporters maje
so we have you seen takes a long ways and invite them
community of nations so that ironically their culture and the money et cetera
will seep in if there are enough people with enough money that are attached to
the outside world
then we can begin to influence them in a direction of democracy
and you know that's what happened people forget now
how horrible south korea was
for how long
who was with horrible military dictatorship
it's really relatively recently
uh... that it does join the international community
uh... but
in the eighties it wasn't cut off and and the words that can isms that could
be applied to note
if you've got companies operating in other countries where they come to do it
and look we're going to put sanctions on you can start getting better
move away from the authoritarianism game
then that you have an economic reason to deter wanna make them happy fall on your
own it's uh... at the state the cat
or most of his income
petroleum tale
it companies not buying the pictures spayed or anything
so why would they cared what we think of etc
eleven south after that they were enough rich folks who've been hurt by the
sanctions of this error are eight
this on the bottom line too much tremendous change
although i think that you know i i i think this controversy over how
effective those sanctions were south africa
uh... but
personally i think it it
there were enough people
connected to the outside world that it doesn't matter to them medic
what people thought of them
mistake though it that you know
with regard to run against it
has already undermined several government fair and uh...
made a lot of math as dumb
are getting nervous
of when your stalking about into into the involves
and you know
uh... we have a very ambiguous result in the two thousand election campaign
and uh... imagine arafat
of france and germany and does the u_k_
europe we're generally came to us that look good
we want to set up a commission to look into your
into your presidential election we would be one examine whether it was on the up
and up well you get you to make some changes
but the reservoir we debate in our new that would offend pacifist
well it was that that that the clinton something someone who has to be
international and building but
uh... i just try to suggest that
americans are so used to go around the world interviewing other people declares
that
they've built up to the poor the golden rule to it that uh...
uh... we reciprocal hopefuls superpowers we don't
built up a bit more would it be like a political reporter you know here yet and
that's a great argument for the rest of america for my purpose
spy thing we should acquire life you should have international monitors
not really
move so that the wrestled weaknesses
wrestle were looking for
redoing so i don't know if you doubt about what occurred talking about
strong-arming
and they hope that we can get a quibble over definitions give update before we
let you go though i doubt it
afghanistan real quick obama sending in more troops there you know going after
their taliban in the south of cetera
unstated that's my strategy right now did
or t_v_ should be doing something else
well you know i uh... i think it protocol with the strategy etc attitude
say that the considered big pimpin
uh... as i understand that there may be being fen tempted to try and help make
sure that the presidential elections occur
on august twentieth
and army wrote it and i didn't know what we're doing a review
uh... what could put the war cold war in afghanistan how they can be achieved a
in a reasonable time frame and so forth
yeah i think that review
and we haven't heard from the president would his reaction used to it
so im at westminster voted in limbo with regard to afghanistan policy
i think they watch
uh... to took move towards more
civilian aid uh... a little bit
crystals talking about
doubling uh... civilian aid workers in afghanistan that one of crowell money
into development rosden
economic development and i don't recall
to put into the kinds of things that bush promised to do and if you do
um... and then but i think they want a
trained and grow the
afghan army
i think that in iraq
uh... to the point where if you can undertake that security mission
itself but i think in work but a lot of progress is don't think so they think
we're wasting our time in and to put an end to many truces a long way to go
using it as just working
well you know report about the uh... in iraq and some way
uh... india and uh...
they've made a lot of mistakes along the way of course
uh... i i think that uh...
i think it's very very difficult and a strategy that just involved moran's
you know troops more connecticut operations of the self
they've got to tell you that people
uh... but what i hear them saying is that they're going to couple that with
uh... a lot of trading a bumping up with the afghan army
uh... and also a lot of economic aid
and uh... inflict a convict those three things work together
uh... that they might have a chance to vote getting out of the so with
discontent
now i send you agree with you completely six aren't all right now the book is
called using the muslim world we put that up to be on for size com park in
our library slices of people together from there
fester one call as always great pleasure to talk to me thank you for coming on
the program secretary