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I'm interviewing Lawrence Busha, who we'll call Mike,
United States Marine Corp., World War II.
Connecticut State University.
A. In the United States Marine Corp.
Q. And what war?
A. World War II in the Pacific.
Q. What was your rank?
A. I worked up to corporal.
Q. Mike, were you drafted or did you enlist?
A. I was assigned a draft, but I chose the Marine
Corp. I guess I enlisted in the -- yeah.
Q. Do you remember the date?
A. I would put down September 1st, 1943.
Q. Where were you living at the time?
A. I was living in Keeseville, New York.
Q. Why did you choose the Marine Corp.?
A. Well, I guess if I was going to fight, I might
as well fight with the best of 'em. I also had three
brothers ahead of me that were in the -- two in the Air
Force and one in the infantry, Army. That may have had a
little effect on it.
Q. Do you recall your first days in service?
A. I recall them real well, yeah.
Q. Will you describe them for me.
A. Well, I think I'll start, I got in the train in
Albany, New York.
Q. That was for your basic training?
A. To head for Parris Island, South Carolina. And
we were there at Albany in the morning, and we got to New
York City and changed over from, I don't know which,
whether it was Grand Central and Pennsylvania Station, to
switch in order to go head for Washington D.C.
In D.C. we traveled all that night, crowded in
the train. It was just packed crowded in there. And all
the way down to -- well, Buford, South Carolina, that was
the landing spot. In those days in 1943, the train
pushed us, all the cars, all the way from Newburn, I
guess, Newburn, North Carolina, all the way down to the
Parris Island.
I remember the train was going at night. And we
were going down to it. It was a hollow sound. In those
days, every once in a while, you'd see a little light.
They were kerosene lamps that the blacks lived in down in
that section down there. We didn't know what we were
going to find down there. It was the worst place in
hell.
Q. And you ended up at Parris Island?
A. I ended up at -- on the shore. And we got off
the train. And at the time we got off the train, a barge
was pulling in. It was just a -- just a barge. And all
the recruits that were ahead of us, got up, and they
started looking at us in our civilian clothes. And
you'll be sorry.
And I see a little guy. I said, if he can
survive, I can too. I was sorry at first, but then I was
glad. Once I got a handle on what I was going to be up
to, once I got a --
We got on the barge, and it was only about a
ten-minute trip to Parris Island. And from then on, it
was -- I was in their hands. The sergeant received us
and introduced us. He would be the platoon sergeant. He
would be telling you when to sleep, when to eat, when to
everything. You'll be told what to do. And that lasted
thirteen weeks.
But the sergeant was doing it. Like when I
left, I wasn't sorry one bit. In fact, I had the
pleasure of meeting him twice later.
Q. Do you remember his name?
A. Yes. Sergeant Joe Hagerty (ph) from
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He was a policeman when he
came into the Marine Corp. I met him, and I was able to
do him a favor when he -- when I was -- at Parris Island,
I later was transferred to Camp Lejeune in North
Carolina.
And he was coming through to training and
getting ready to go overseas. And at Camp Lejeune, we
had a little, what we call a Slop Shoot. That was the
beer hall there. And I recognized him. And, well, you
see so many of them.
But anyway, after we talked a little while, he
said to me, "Do you have any more of your khaki shirts?"
I said, "Oh, yeah."
He said, "The Slop Shoot down there, we can't
get in there unless we have a khaki shirt." So I gave
him the shirt.
I said, "Well, I'll go with you tonight then."
We went down. We spent about three hours there, and we
got real friendly.
And one night in Okinawa when I was back off the
front lines, I met him again, Joe Hagerty, but we knew
each other good then. And he had moved from a sergeant
to -- he had two new stripes, gunnery sergeant.
Q. What were your thirteen weeks in Parris Island
like? What kind of things did you do?
A. Well, we started off going in the shower. First
you get your hair cut. And they're fast and it costed
you a quarter, and that will be taken out of your first
month's pay, 25 cents. And they were all civilian
barbers. You get your hair cut down about a half inch on
top. Then you go in to a shower. And when you come out,
there's a set of clothes for you to wear. They're
waiting for you.
And then we came out all together. Gathered in
a group again. And we had a talk. We had a group of old
timers, and -- well, have to be an old timer.
One of the sergeants that was on there was Lou
Diamond, one of the greatest mortar men the Marine Corp.
ever had. They claimed he could fire a mortar gun and
drop within three shots, he could put one down the
chimney. But that was the old timers.
But we were talked to and what to expect. And
then from there it was one thing after the other.
Clothes. Everything is going to be done by the numbers.
You're going to be -- when you march in, it's one, two,
three, four, but they hop it up like, so they're doing
it's going to be four numbers, left, right, left, right,
left, right. And then you go in, get the training. And
the training was to that sergeant when he got done with
us, he could march us across the field, bust us all up,
put us back together, and he had us right by the end of
his finger.
And even today, I could think I could with a
little practice about five minutes, I'd be able to --
Q. March right in formation again?
A. Yup. Every time you fall out, if you come out
of the barracks, the order was fall out. And you were
gathered in a group. And you knew how to get in there.
I was squad leader. You had sixty men in the
platoon and two parts. And you have a platoon leader at
the head each line. What he is, he gets his position, he
marks off and taps the guy beside you on the shoulder.
That's the distance to keep you apart.
And then that's what a dress right, the command
given, dress right. And you measure off and then you're
called at attention. Close your feet together on the
side.
And then he gives you the first command to -- if
you have no weapons, but just march, and he'll give you
attention. And he gives you where you're going to go.
If you're going to go to the left, the command is left --
let's see. Well, let's see if it's -- left anyway.
That's the word. And then you turn left.
And then if he gives you step off, he gives you
forward. You start off on your left foot. And everyone
steps off. And if you are out of line, you can very easy
hurry, shuffle your feet and get back in the line. But
like he'd say to them, "Your other left."
Q. What other things did you learn besides
marching?
A. That's all we had --
Q. In basic. That's all you had to learn in
basic?
A. Oh, no. No. During that time, you learn the
history of the Marine Corp. It was a red book, and you
were issued that book. And you read it because it's
going to be very important because your first test to get
your first stripe comes out of that book. So that's when
I got my -- when I graduated out of camp, I had my first
stripe.
Q. When you have one stripe, what's your rank
then?
A. Private first class.
Then when you're pretty well lined up -- by
then, about eight or nine weeks -- nine weeks after, by
that time, you've already worn out one pair of shoes from
marching. So you can get an idea of all the marching we
did.
Even the rifle range was three miles away from
the main station, all the way -- well, rifle shooting, we
ran out there. And you go out. What the command was,
force march. In other words, get to one place from the
other the fastest way possible. So you're walking and
running, walking and running. And you just keep up. You
don't sit down and rest. You run that whole three miles
out there. And by the eighth week, you're in pretty good
shape then.
At the rifle range, just before you go out
there, you're issued a rifle. And what you do, the rifle
is all full of grease from what they call Cosmolene.
It's done (inaudible). Now you have an instructor, which
later I became one on the rifle range too, an instructor,
to tell you what you've got to do.
You've got to clean that all out. You have all
the rags and things to clean it. You're given the rod
and the little piece of cloth that's used and put it into
a cleaning solution. And take the oil out of the
(inaudible). So when you get through with this whole
thing, the gun is in top shape, almost sparkle.
Now, before you go to the range, you learn to
march with the rifle. That was another part. About a
week's training. And that one there is many of the
commands, first one when you got the rifle now, other
commands based on with the rifle. You're pulled at
attention. You have a rifle. First you assemble and
then you're called to attention. And then when you're
given a command, parade rest. And at that point, you
spread your legs and your rifle is out straight out from
your arm like this.
Now he gives a command, attention, you pull the
rifle back up here, and you snap your two heels together.
And then the next command is port arms. Pull the rifle
up, catch it by the upper stock, grab it here, and you
pull it to your chest like this. And that's the next
command. And then if you're going to start to march, you
get your command left to right. Then they say -- then
port -- right shoulder arm. With that one there, you
bring your rifle -- you got to -- butt of the rifle here
and then you put it on your shoulder.
Then you can be given the command left shoulder
arm. Left shoulder is the start of the command. Then
when he gives arm, you slap it over and go this way and
you get it on the left. And you get to be an expert on
all that.
Then you head out for the rifle range, run that
three miles, and then you're in a barracks out there.
And you go to your meals. All the meals you're pulled
out, told what to do, fall in, chow time, and you've got
so much time to get it all done. You're back out again.
You get a little rested. Those days they let
you smoke. You could smoke. Cigarettes were cheap
anyway. I started smoking when I got in there because
they were cheap. Everybody was smoking. But I was
lucky, I quit before I left the Marine Corp. So I've
never smoked since.
Q. So what happened at the end of the thirteen
weeks when you graduated and had your stripes?
A. What you do first now, you've got your rifle
that's clean, spotless. Then you assemble out in the
field. I may have a picture of another guy I knew. Oh,
yes. I will have a little picture of the rifle range.
Because they don't do that today. Ours was different.
But I like what they're doing today better.
With the rifle now, we have to fire the rifle
offhand, that's standing offhand. Then you have to fire
it sitting. And that's where you sit on your heel and
then you're kneeling. Those three positions.
Now, in order to do that you have to stretch the
muscles. Now you have a sling on the rifle and it has to
be adjusted right on your arm, hold it so the rifle just
balance it. But you've got to be doing it what they call
snapping in. That's the order. That's what it is,
snapping in.
And so we go through, oh, probably an hour or
two a day. But if you want to be an expert rifleman, do
a lot of practice at night when you got the time off. So
we used to go out in the field and while we're at the
rifle range and snap it in. Snapping in the other one is
this -- snapping in is -- they call it a dummy run. You
fire your rifle on an empty chamber. It doesn't do any
damage, but you learn to squeeze the trigger and don't
pull it.
As a coach later on, I see why we need to do it
better. But each one helped each other. That's the way
I like about the whole Marine Corp. There's something at
the end of the trail why you were given that stuff there.
So you learn that.
And why I did it, I just liked it. I used to go
out at night rather than reading a book or something, go
out and snap in. It showed up. I was an expert rifleman
like my discharge verified that. And not only that, I
got $5 more a month for that, for being an expert. And
the medal you get.
Q. Did they train you to be a rifleman or did
everybody get the same amount of training?
A. You get the same thing, but the coaches, which I
later became, your coach takes over. The drill sergeant
likes that. He gets a little break. He marches us down
to the firing lines. It's 500 yards, we start firing at
a target 24 inches, in other words, 24 inches like that
at 500 yards, it looks like just a baseball. That's what
you're shooting in there.
And I pride myself. Every time I did there, I
was getting eight out of the eight. I was firing eight
shots. That's only in the prone position. That's lying
down. That's why I didn't say anything about the prone.
That was the only time you fire in a prone position is
500 yards. And you fire a single shot. That's the
training for sniper shooting. But our combat, the combat
that I saw was a whole different thing by the time I got
there.
The enemy we were fighting was the Japanese.
And we had to dig them out of holes. It wasn't sniper
training I got. I didn't need it.
Q. Where did you go from Parris Island?
A. Parris Island, I had a ten-day furlough to go
home. And I was directed to come back to the rifle
range. I agreed to. Before that they asked me if I
would like to be a coach. And I agreed to it.
So then when I came back from my furlough, I was
taken to the main station. And then this time I rode out
to the rifle range in the jeep.
Q. Back at the same rifle range on Parris Island
though?
A. Yeah. Yeah. I got pictures of a little --
you'll get an idea of a little bit.
Q. So then you coached the new recruits in how to
shoot the rifle?
A. That's right. I went there on the cleaning and
the snapping in and telling them what to do. Knew the
tricks of the trade. A lot of kids will go up and
because it gets a kick and some of them are a little
small, you know. But I had fired rifles before I went
into the service anyway. My brother's shotgun used to
kick like heck, you know.
So you have a bucket, you throw your shoulder
into it. And you hit in the dirt don't shoot -- when you
go like that instead of at the target. So what you do is
the tricks we had, we had a little gadget about two
inches like that with a little mirror, two mirrors
inside. And you could snap that on over the site that
the recruit look through, and you can tell where he's
looking.
And then two mistakes is usually bucking, and
the other mistake is trying to cheat because you don't
want to -- always a few of them don't want to go any
further. They want to get out of the service or get out.
So you put that on there and you see where they're
shooting. You tell them, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. And
I know just where he's going to hit.
If he's aiming down low, I'll see it. Then I
take a -- I tell 'em in no uncertain terms what I'm going
to do. And then another one is to take the bullet off
the end, break one off, dump the powder, slip it into the
chamber, stand over him where he can't see and you just
flip it in there.
Now he's going to fire, and it's like firing a
cap gun. It doesn't kick at all. And if he's throwing
his shoulder, he'll do it. And you usually break him of
the habit. It doesn't take very long. But give them a
little sermon too, you know.
Q. How long did you coach at the rifle range?
A. I stayed there -- I agreed to six months. And I
stayed there. And I enjoyed it. But the turnover -- a
lot of them, we were -- Major Mull was our commanding
officer out there, and he gathered a group of us that
were going to be coaches. And he said, "I won't hold you
to it. I'd like to have you stay six months, but if you
can't take it, feel free to sign to go off up to Camp
Lejeune."
And I stayed my full six months. And once
again, my service records showed that after two months, I
was the highest drop-out, that I went by the two. And
that was the only lowest rate I got in my -- they had a
total of 5 for the best rate. And I got 4.8 for that.
And after two months, I noticed that it went up to 5 for
the other four months.
Q. Where did you go after your six months?
A. I went to Camp Lejeune rifle range. And I met
some guys I knew. Every time a group would come up there
anyway, you find somebody you knew. And there I went
into training for sniper shooting, real combat under
machine gunfire, crawling on your elbows with your rifle
up, going through all kinds of combat training, real
experience. And then we took over from the training.
And they went on to various outfits.
Q. How long did you stay at Camp Lejeune?
A. I stayed till almost -- that was in -- almost
six months. Under the heavy training I was going through
a thyroid condition. My neck started swelling up. And
my thyroid was (inaudible) my wind pipe. And I was told
to go turn yourself in, because my neck was getting too
big for my shirt.
So they sent me immediately right down to a
hospital in Cherry Point, a Navy hospital. Still today,
I guess, Navy is still a part of the Marine Corp. -- I
mean, the other way around. The Marine Corp. was a part
of the Navy. I don't know what they do now.
Anyway, I went to the hospital, and a doctor,
Dr. Graham -- Dr. Graham talked to me and got two other
doctors and said that I need an operation. And they said
you don't have to have it. But if you don't then we'll
have to discharge you. We'll do everything we can to put
you right in top shape.
I said, if I'm going to have it, I better have
it here. So I have no idea I wanted to get discharged.
No, I don't want to go back home. That's almost as bad
as a bad conduct discharge. I think my father would have
crucified me if I would have ever came back.
And, anyway, the operation was good. Dr. Graham
and the two doctors talked to me, and leveled right with
me. And I agreed to it. And they did it. And so I got
separated from my group.
In the meantime, this group that we were doing,
we were preparing for big war, going in _______. But we
still had some other ones. But I was able to get back in
my old outfit. I stayed in the hospital about six weeks.
And then I was with a group. And I didn't know anybody.
And it was all training. And I went to Camp Pendleton.
Q. Where is Camp Pendleton?
A. Camp Pendleton, California. It's still a big
place out there yet. And we did some other training
while we were there.
My outfit I was in was in Guadalcanal, but I got
sidetracked up here. And I took advantage of some
training of jumping ship. That involved swimming with a
full pack on, survivor, how you would get off of a boat.
It was a 30-foot tower, you had your full pack on your
back. And you jump down into the water. Just step off.
You had to look straight and boom, down you go. And then
swim fifty yards. That was an estimated swim. That was
a good training for us.
And there wasn't much other to do because they
were coordinating the other thing. They were preparing
to go into Okinawa. So what happened to me, I got
transferred then into the First Regiment draft. We were
in a draft to replace casualties, the first draft. So
this -- I didn't get into the north part of -- north
Okinawa. That was a two-week operation. And I didn't
get until they come down, cleared the north.
Then began the battle of Boinsawa (ph). That's
where all the activity was.
Q. So you got actually shipped over to Okinawa?
Q. Do you know where you landed on Okinawa?
A. Yeah. I landed on Green Beach right near Yontan
Airport where the first group landed.
Q. And that was in the southern part of Okinawa?
A. That was in the middle of it, right straight in
the middle. The island was chopped up into Sixth
Division, First Marine Regiment and 10th Army. And they
were -- we were on -- if you look at it, as you look at
it on the left, that would be the western part. That was
the Sixth Division. And the next one was in the middle.
And then on the eastern shore was in the 10th Army.
Q. You were in the First Regiment; do you remember
what date it was, what month and year?
A. The day I was in there, my record shows, I think
I didn't get down there until about the 20th of April.
They landed on Easter Sunday, the whole division, landed
on Okinawa, April 1st, 1945.
Q. So it was 1945 when you were there?
A. I didn't land. A was the First Regiment, and
trapped. We were held back in Guam which was about a day
and a half away to came up. We came up to fill in after
they captured the north end.
Q. In 1945?
A. Yup. And this one here, this was the bloodiest
battle the Marine Corp. ever fought. It doesn't --
there's not -- some history on it, but all the Navy,
there was 1100 ships. It was just an ocean of ships out
there when we landed on the shore there. It's hard to
believe that all those ships in there. And all of them,
Navy men that got killed and ships were sunk in there.
But they don't get the -- I imagine you can get
some history of that there. Somebody has got it. The
Navy has got it. But the Navy took an awful beating, a
lot of ships were sunk. We came in on the -- no. We
went down the rope ladders. I was glad I had that
training.
Q. You came down the rope ladders off the ships to
get into shore?
A. And you got into a Higgins boat. This is a
landing craft, they are what they call. There's two
types of landing -- troop landing, small troops. It's
Amtrak. That's an amphibious track that goes on water
and land. It was the Amtraks we got into. We got in
there and when we got on shore it opened up on the beach
you walked out.
Q. What was it like on shore. Where did you go?
A. Well, it was getting organized. First night it
was raining, pouring rain. Anyway, I saw it when we were
coming up in the ship. It was all clouds over there
anyway. And pouring rain.
Oh, I laid in the foxhole that we got assembled.
We were in the foxhole, and I had a shelter hat and a
poncho. And when I got up out of there -- I didn't sleep
at all that night. There was bombs going off. They were
away from us. In the morning all my hands were wrinkled.
Boy, was I glad to get in that truck when we
moved going up to the front lines. Going up to the front
lines was mud that deep. __________. You have to see
these things to tell you what a ride. Sitting on a board
there.
Q. So the very next morning they sent you to the
front lines?
A. Well, yeah. But the sad part is my close buddy
from boot camp had been over from Syracuse. He
graduated -- I have a picture of he and I, a few
pictures. And we were -- I didn't know him at the time,
it didn't matter too much. But one guy recognized me
from back in the States when I was a coach. And he
hollered, "Hey, Bush, I got your buddy in here."
And I said, "Who?"
He said, "Van Order." I knew it was the -- they
call it the meat wagon. They bring in the dead off the
line. And he was the first guy I was going to go back
and see. I wouldn't have got in the same company, but I
might have got to see him again. But on that time there,
he got killed about two or three days until I got up
there. I don't know. And that's the first shock I got.
That one there, I never got over that one very
much because he got a dirty deal. I think that for some
reason or other, I'll be telling you some more on the
dirty -- what I call a dirty deal. And he paid too much.
He was an all-star tackle at Cornell University
in 1942. And he was promised or agreed to a commission
in the Navy when he graduated in 1943 out of Cornell
University. And they didn't say anything to him about
medical report. When he got there he had high blood
pressure. And he was classified -- couldn't take him.
So he wanted to go to the war anyway. So he
said, well, I might as well go in. If you're going to
fight, fight with the best. And he joined at Albany, New
York. He left at Albany. I didn't know him then. But
he was there in the gang.
Anyway, from what he said there, he was
disappointed. He got in the Marine Corp. They took him.
But they didn't want officers with high blood pressure.
And he shot high expert fuel. He was a coach. And we
were together there at Camp Lejeune. And we separated.
And then I was following the news and
everything, the little news that we would get. So I
never did get to see him again. And I felt bad for him
because if he could fight for the Marines, he ought to be
able to be commissioned. I don't want to get off the
track, but that's going up the line that was -- so I
didn't --
And the only other time I got -- all through the
battle, you get a good shot at someone -- I believe I'm
no different than anybody else. The first time -- it
didn't happen, but when I was told to fix bayonets, I got
the order from the sergeant, I was up on the front lines.
And expect a banzai attack that night.
And we were sent out on an advance outpost. We
would take the shock of the -- any group that would -- we
were -- it was four foxholes. There was four in each one
of them. And then the sergeant before I went up, he
says, when we give the order, fix bayonets. The chills
run up my back. And I got settled down all right when we
got in the foxhole, but I didn't sleep at all that night.
All four, none of us slept that night. But nothing
happened.
Q. When you went up to the front lines, did you see
combat on the front lines?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. In Okinawa?
A. Yeah.
Q. How long did you have to stay up there?
A. About five days. And then we accomplished four
to five days what -- we fought a battle that their method
of fighting there was to pincer, in other words, you
would have three companies, A, B and C, Able Company,
that's what I was in. B is Baker Company and C is
Charlie Company.
Then usually, we have two, whoever we want, to
get some rest, we'd get our -- well, the real estate, I
don't know what you want to call it, capture, but we
were -- we would capture a hill. We'd have to blast them
out of there. And then when you captured that, you're
going to set up your main lines again. Then the ones
that needed it would get a rest and you would get back a
couple days to shower and change your clothes and wash
your clothes and get ready to go back up on the lines
again and relieve. And that's the way we fought that war
on Okinawa.
Q. So would you fight for four or five days on the
front lines and then get a rest for a couple days'
rest?
A. Yeah. Clean your rifles and all that stuff. I
was still teaching the boys how to clean rifles, yeah.
Q. Were you still a PFC?
A. Oh, yeah. Well, ranks were not too much in the
Marine Corp.
Q. When you were not on the front lines and you
dropped back, where would you go? Was there, like, a
base camp?
A. We were back in captured territory.
Q. The accommodations there, did you have barracks
or were you sleeping on the ground?
A. You're going to laugh on this one here. We
bombed Naha --
Q. Naha?
A. Naha. It was the capital city over on this
level spot. We captured that. That's another part of my
battle. That was quite a battle. We bombed it to make
them useless.
The Japanese were only ninety miles away. They
could fly over and pull a banzai, I mean, not a banzai,
the other one, suicide planes. They were suicide just
like they do today only they did it with the plane. They
went down with two bombs to hit a ship.
And we dropped a lot of 500-pound bombs. I
guess, if you were -- yesterday they were talking about
1,000 pounds with the crater. Well, the air strips from
all those tanks were full of water. I would put my rifle
down, and that was our swimming pool. There was a bunch
of them all over there.
And we had a bar of soap all of us in our pack.
It was all-purpose soap. It was like an old octagon. It
was dark, orange color. And it was good for salt water
or fresh water. And then the next thing we're skinny
dipping there.
Q. What did you sleep in?
A. Just some foxholes or you had better protection
way back. If there was a foxhole, we stayed in the
foxhole all the time with a couple other guys.
Q. So you just sleep in the ground in the
foxhole?
A. In the ground, yeah. Poncho, we had, like, a
raincoat. Well, in the foxhole, all you would do is just
sit in there and you just slide down. Cat naps. There
was no such thing as --
Q. Real sleep?
A. Every time you'd take a rest you'd be sleeping.
I mean, sometimes you'd pause for a take-five. They'd
say take five, and we cuddle up for a nap. I still do
that today. I never got out of that. Never.
Q. Were there many casualties in your unit?
A. Oh, it was a -- I have no estimate of it, but I
never -- I never was -- in other words, when I filled in
at the Yontan Airfield, I was put my platoon, there
wasn't anyone that I could find that I started with.
Q. Really?
A. One time we were sixty of us, and we got to take
two hills. You know, we were on there for three days.
And there was eleven of us that did get wounded. And we
come back off that, a guy by the name of Pancho. I
didn't know his real name. And I was teamed up with him.
When we buckled down in the foxhole. I stayed in the
foxhole about two or three days with him. And one of his
great ones was when we came back at the rest stop,
somebody say, "Hey, Pancho, you still with us?"
And so Pancho says, "Oh, yeah. Old Bush and I,
we keep our eyes open, we watch the bullets go by. And
we don't see Pancho, we don't see Bush, so we let 'em go
by."
But the sad part, the next day he got killed.
Went back up on the lines. Then I got my -- some of my
training again, flame thrower. And if you want to get
attention on the front line, put a flame thrower on your
back. We got pinned down.
Q. You were the one to operate the flame thrower?
A. Yeah. I learned it back here. And I was just
given at Camp Pendleton. They asked me. I wanted to
learn everything. And I got to say I got good training.
And the flame thrower, they don't use it anymore in
combat. I don't know what happened. I never did ask and
I never did any -- it was stopped before Korea.
A flame thrower is -- mine was a double tank.
And it's easy, get instruction. In the tank is mixed
with -- one tank is gasoline and the other is ***,
which is a little thinner stuff. And so that when it
comes out and it hits you, the *** enables the
gasoline to stick right on to you. And the Japanese
hated those. Oh, boy.
We come out on a little shelf. We were a
platoon of us, twelve of us in the platoon, twelve of us
in the squad. In other words, we broke into squads
because we had a lot of territory to take, and we grouped
up.
Anyway, I had the flame thrower on. And I
didn't even get a chance to fire it. Oh, yeah, I did one
time. I went by one hole, and I give it a blast of
flames. And then another guy throws in the -- a package
of TNT, four pounds, and it has a pin and you have seven
seconds for it to go. All of us handle grenades, you
usually counted one, two, three, so you wouldn't get the
thing coming back if they in some way picked it up.
Actually, you got four seconds to head it up there. You
throw that in and usually it caves it closed. It's
closed. They can dig them open afterwards. But at least
it's closed. You don't have to worry about some sniper.
Anyway, I had my flame thrower, and we come out
onto a shelf. And we got pinned down. They walked us
into a trap. The first one they picked the last one in
back of us. They started picking them off. And they got
up to me and fired thirteen shots. I don't know how I
got through it. I got two bullets in my tank and the
stuff was running on my back.
Q. There were thirteen shots fired at you?
A. Yeah. I felt them. I had one go. And I felt
the one that hit the tank on my back. And I could hear
them what I could count, but it could have been more.
And I told the group down there, well, Robin, and a group
how I -- I says, I'm laughing now, but I didn't want to
get hit in the face. So at the last shot that went to
the tank, I had my hand and I tipped my helmet over like
that to block my -- I wasn't going to get hit in the
head, the face.
And they stopped firing at me. And then they
went on to Pancho. And Pancho, I heard that bullet --
bloop. Pancho said, "My name was on that one, Bush."
And I felt that fire. We were pinned right down
and his feet, I could see his shoes there. And he was
joking right up till the end.
The lieutenant got hit. We had a corporal in
command by the name of Rand Stevanovich (ph). He didn't
get killed. Because I have a list of people that got
killed. But if anybody needed a bravery -- because he
got us out of there. He had a white phosphorous grenade.
White phosphorous is in a canister about this
big around, up that high. And it's a grenade, but it
burns phosphorous. If that just falls onto you, it
sticks and it burns right through, but it smokes. It's a
smoke grenade. And it sparkles like sparkling like you
see on the Fourth of July.
And the wind was just blowing away, and it
covered us all up with smoke. And we were able to pull
Pancho off. Usually when a guy gets hit he needs to be
warm. If they're dead, we just throw a poncho over them.
So we -- somebody had a poncho, and, "You get
that away from me." He said, "Get that away from me."
We said, "That's all we got. We got to get you out of
here."
"I don't want to get wrapped up in that, no."
And the next morning they told us that he died
that night in the hospital. Got him out, pulled him back
out of the trap. And we pulled back to our regular line.
And the next morning we got the bad news. But I never
knew his name though. He was from New Mexico.
Q. You were hit thirteen times. Were you wounded
with any of those shots?
A. No.
Q. That's pretty amazing.
A. They went over my back. And I couldn't get it
why there were only a couple shots went for the tank. I
couldn't understand. But then I think tipping that
helmet up on one shot there stopped the fire and they
went on to Pancho or wherever the snipers are. No way
you could find them. You want to get your head blown
off, just move it.
I always said that there was somebody else with
me there. I always thought my mother died because of
that war. She had six boys in the service.
Q. All six of you?
have my son went in Vietnam.
Q. Were you awarded any medals or citations?
A. No. We had the presidential unit citation for
the Battle of Okinawa. That was Harry Truman. Ribbon, I
guess, there's a medal to go with it, but I didn't -- you
have to go and -- I don't -- medal don't mean very much
to me. And the other was for the Battle of Okinawa.
It's a yellow one. Presidential unit citation. It's a
bluish, blue stripe color, blue background.
Q. When you were in Okinawa, how did you stay in
touch with family?
A. I didn't write home.
Q. You didn't?
A. No.
Q. So you had no contact with people back home?
A. I think I could have. I could have got what
they call a V-mail. When I got back to Guam, I talked to
the family. But there was nothing I could tell them
there.
Q. What was the food like?
A. It was the regular ration.
Q. You must have been happy to get back to real
food.
A. Yeah. Yeah. But I was poor when I was a -- I
was brought up in depression time, upstate New York. My
father was -- we weren't on welfare because we didn't --
we took things when the government would give them out.
They used to come, the government, up there. Government
had -- the word would get around in the village that they
are giving out butter, and they're giving out flour,
they're giving out rice, they're giving out, oh, I don't
know.
But us kids, they would give us something. We
would bring it home, my mother would do work and my
father was a village blacksmith. And he even got paid in
a duck or a turkey or something. Most of his money would
put food on the table.
So when I went in the service, first time I ever
got three meals a day.
Q. How long were you on Okinawa before you got sent
back to Guam?
A. We stayed the whole -- I was there sometime in
July, back to Guam. That was when the battle was done.
A lot of the last week was clean-up. That was -- that
was a horrible thing. The poor civilians that got
killed. And suicide was unbelievable. Unbelievable.
The suicide that we watched with one of the lieutenants.
And we got together in a group because we saw
some kids digging in a field on the bottom of the island
here. There was trees that were, like, tangled all
through. And I imagine nature did that with the typhoon
out in that area. And they were all pushed to the ocean.
All those civilians left and wounded Japanese and some
probably less than 1,000 soldiers that were wounded or
just give up completely, didn't want to commit suicide.
Q. Japanese?
A. Yeah.
Q. Why did the other ones commit suicide?
A. Then we -- I mean, when we got back there -- I
put myself a little bit too far. Before we got there,
and we walked through a road that didn't show in the
binoculars. We saw these two little kids go and they
were getting yams out of the garden over there. Yams and
sugar cane grew on that island. And they had a few
vegetables. And they were getting the yams. That was
one of their main staples out there.
Anyway, we walked into about 400 people in chaps
(ph). And men and women and children were taking the
little grenades about that high. They just pull it and
they'd grab each other and they'd hold it right over the
clip.
Q. Because they didn't want to be captured?
A. And all the women that were killed too. I don't
know if they were all civilians or they had Okinawan
women there. They had their own island women. And, oh,
there must have, I would say, 40 to 50 suicides there.
And the name is -- I don't know if he's still
alive now yet, but he -- the lieutenant that we were
with, George Thompson, he stayed with us. We had nine of
us, eleven of us walk in and we walked into a trap. And
they come out of the --
Q. This is another time?
A. This is the time in the same time. They were
coming out and started committing suicide, all hell broke
loose. And they wanted smoke. Smoke. My book says they
took tobacco. They only got a little touch in the book,
a book I have of Okinawa, just a little touch of what
went on there about that battle because, evidently, if
they would have give George Thompson, the lieutenant,
maybe if he would have got a citation if there was
somebody to speak up for him if he would have got a group
of us so we could have told them what he did.
He told us to break our cigarettes in half
because they want tobacco, tobacco. Smoke, smoke. And
all I remember was smoke, but this book says tobacco.
Anyway, he had a walkie-talkie, one of those big
monsters, about this long. And he was on there and he
was calling for reinforcements and we were down in there.
And it seemed like a lifetime. Finally we got the troops
coming in until we got level the playing field then.
So then came the big part of getting them out of
there. The group that's out is the picture of them right
in the book I got, in the green book that I have, the
Battle of Okinawa. This was one of the ones that tells
the truth about everything I can -- I can't find anything
wrong with it, the battle that they spell out there.
Q. Well, when you bring your stuff, I'd like to see
it.
A. I'll bring it.
Q. Did you do anything special for good luck? You
know how some guys have a rabbit foot.
A. No. No. I said my prayers every night. That's
all. Once in a while, in between.
Q. Then after the Battle of Okinawa, you were back
in Guam. How long did you stay in Guam?
A. We got back to Guam. Immediately we started
preparing to invade Japan.
Now, this is one that when the day that they
talk about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, no one thinks of
whatever would have happened to us. They talk about
90,000 people get killed in that bomb and they weep and
everything. People were fitted with bamboo sticks
sharpened. Piece of bamboo, if you ever see how the
bamboo shatter. They're sharp. We were told that to the
last man, that's what we were going to expect.
The training I was in, our company, we
trained -- the biggest one I remember was B-25 bombers.
If you gut them, take all the seats out in the bomber,
they could get 80 of us in on the floor, and we would sit
there with our rifle between our legs and then our little
pack, we'd sit on our pack. And we would drop out of the
bomb bay.
So we would hurry up and load up, go up the
ladder, get all in position. And then they would taxi
the plane down to the end of the runway and turn around
and then come back and then how fast it would unload.
We'd unload, go down that ladder and about two steps and
down there.
So that was one day's training. That was to be
done -- parts of our division were going to -- our 20th
were already on the ocean. We were ready to go in Japan.
We were going to come in after the target airborne, we
were going to fly in and we said, boy, there's a lot of
us going down 80 at a time. Because they got the
aircraft and all that stuff.
No one knows, it would have been the biggest
slaughter ever known.
Q. What division were you in?
A. Sixth Marine Division.
So the good news came in August. We were at a
USO show sponsored by Gene Autry's troop. And one of his
characters on there -- see, I don't use the name that
often there. Gabby.
Q. Gabby Hayes?
A. Gabby Hayes. He was in control. And we were
all laughing.
Q. This was a show on Guam?
A. Yeah. They have an outdoor theater. And we
call it a smoker because they have a smoker for it. On
Friday nights, they were setting it up. And a lot of
amateur boxers of our own people. Frank was one of my
buddies. He was an amateur boxer. He'll come up
later.
Q. So they have an amateur boxing show and you
would watch the fight?
A. No. No. We'd have the three-round fights.
That's what they were.
Q. Three rounds?
A. And they'd *** the hell out of each other. And
we'd have probably about six or eight. All depends on
how many you could get to fight. They wanted to get
loose.
Frank was a lightweight. And he was a hometown
hero down in Queens, Long Island. And I'll bring him up
later when we're talking.
So the news came over. We interrupt your
program for a very important message from the United
States government. Our planes have just dropped a bomb
on Nagasaki. And it had the power of 40 carloads of TNT.
Unbelievable to think because you handle four pounds of
TNT and these are railroad cars full of it. They use
that. Stayed up there.
And there was all silence, and then all of a
sudden, we all started clapping, boy, oh, boy. This is
what we need. And that same week they hit the other one
that time. And then the process was that Japan
surrendered. That means we're going home.
But that wasn't where we were going yet. We had
some more work to do. We were invited by Chiang
Kai-shek, he was at that time -- the war started up
again, the Chinese were fighting the communists and the
Japanese in Asia. And he invited, that's what he told
us, a group of our division over to -- our section to
Tsingtao, China.
Today it's no longer Tsingtao, it's Yan (ph). I
got this secondhand. They change the big cities all the
time. This was a summer resort. We were in there. We
were going up to --
Q. So you shipped right out from Guam and went to
China?
A. Yeah.
Q. The whole Sixth?
A. Yeah. On the way in, we got into the China Sea,
the East China Sea, we hit a typhoon. There was about
4,000 of us aboard that ship packed in there like
sardines. 40-foot waves from the typhoon. That boat
would go just like this boom, boom. And you'd all get
jarred.
Q. Must have been pretty scary.
A. I don't know. I talked to myself time and time
again. What was I doing? We were not that scared. I
guess we were sort of revved up the war was over. We
were going to China. A lot of guys were going home, but
they said we'll never get a chance to go to China so they
came with us.
Frank did this too. Here he is. He never saw
his kid. Anyway, I don't want to get that one. I'll
tell you that one later about my relationship with him.
Anyway, we finally got through. There was
another one of a lifetime, I think about six or eight
hours we got out of the typhoon. And then we landed in
Tsingtao, China. And we stayed on. We didn't get off
ship until four days later. We were on the ship. We
could watch the Sanpans and all that, the crooks down
there selling stuff already.
Anyway, we pulled in there, and it was a big
banner across, Welcome General Shepard. He was our
commanding officer, the general. And so we went up to a
university. They had some universities. We were housed
up there. All the Japanese stayed in there, and then we
came in. I don't know if we got the same mattresses or
what, but don't matter.
But all of us six footers, we just fit in. All
the bunks were six foot. Anybody over that, they hang
over the end. Anyway, I only stayed there a couple days.
And I got a call from our platoon sergeant. He was a
gunnery sergeant by the name of Falzones (ph) from
Massachusetts, something like that. Wanted to see me
down in his office.
I said, what the heck we got here. I was ready,
because we were scheduled to go north. And our platoon
was going to guard the railroad tracks against the
communists. They were on their way. Just waiting to
come through. You know, the politics and everything, we
were going there as guests. Like heck, we were there to
hold up that war so they could get out of there or get,
you know, fight them better or whatever. He was losing
ground anyway.
Anyway, I went down to see the sergeant, went in
there. "Sit down, Bush." He says, "We're putting a brig
detachment together, prisoners," he says, "and I want you
to represent me over as a guard or whatever they got for
you over there. I got to get one man, and you're my
man."
"Jeez," I said, "I just got to know these guys,
Sergeant." Some of these guys were from Okinawa. I
said, "I want to stay here."
"Bush, I'm telling you, your commanding officer,
Olin Elville (ph), major, he's the company commander of
the MP battalion. And this detachment will be a
detachment of the military police. And I didn't just
pick this out of a hat." He said, "You'll get treated
good and everything." He said, "I'll tell you, I like
you, Bush."
Took the wind right out of my sails. He made me
feel like that. I walked out of there. I never forgot
that. Never saw him again after that. He went north.
But, you see, sometimes somebody watches, you
know, you don't know who it is. And so anyway, I went
down there. I wasn't sorry after a while. I was just
one other guy where I was headquarters in this big hotel
along the beach there. And then a guy by the name of
John Bowls (ph) from Forest Park, Georgia, that's a
suburb of Savannah, Forest Park. Yeah, it's just like
Avon is a part of Hartford, I guess.
Anyway, so what happened, they said I was a
carpenter. I did have industrial arts in high school.
He knew there was some work to be done. I knew a hammer
and nail and saw. And John had the same thing. So he
and I started with what we had. We had no prisoners. We
were to get with the supervision of a Lieutenant Smith,
he was from Georgia. Makes it nice for John Bowls too.
Anyway, hell of a nice guy, good guy, big, tall
guy. Anyway, we got in there. And then after about a
week, we work, we got some cells together. What we had
to do was put together a holding room for political
prisoners. What you see over in Iraq, how they handle
prisoners that did atrocities to their -- that's the way
it works.
And so we wound up, we got some Chinese
carpenters; I didn't get them, but they were in the
process of getting them. And so they took over doing all
the hammering and nails. And they put together just
things over the windows and rooms that was all around in
the back out there. Anyway, made it so we could handle
prisoners and they wouldn't get away.
And so we got thirteen German. It was a city
that back in the late 1800s, they landed out there.
Europe, they went around, there would be a colony. So
Tsingtao had a lot of German people. And they were all
educated. They had their own priorities and everything,
whatever.
So we had two Japanese officers. They were
officers anyway. And we had them put into -- they were
high -- we had to make sure we didn't lose them. So
there was something there.
Q. So you had thirteen German plus the Japanese
officers?
A. Yeah. We had the thirteen Germans with one big
room with beds in there. This room was a root cellar for
the hotel up there. A root cellar, no lights in it or
anything. Just a door.
So intelligence asked us if we had a solitary
cell or something. We showed them that one. He said,
"That's good enough for them. Put them in there."
And I laugh at it now though. I think, well,
John Bowls, we got two mattresses, and we'd give them
both a bucket. They weren't going to get out. And they
had to do their business. They had to do it in a bucket.
Said, "Don't make it easy on them."
We said, "We'll take care of it."
And we used to open the door at noontime and
give them half a loaf of bread. Ever hear of bread and
water for prisoners? We laughed. We'd give them half a
loaf of bread and all the water they could drink.
So every third day we had to chase them. I
would chase them, guard them, take them to mess hall, and
they got something to eat in the line. They stopped and
went over in a corner and everybody knew it. And John
Bowls would do it.
It seemed like a long time, but it was probably
about three weeks we had them. But we'd open it up at
noon to let them out and they come out and no lights in
there or nothing. Just completely dark. Covering their
eyes. And they stand by the door. Took them about five
minutes before they could accustom.
And when finally intelligence when they got
there, they just took them from us. Anyway, they had to
interrogate them. When they come out there, they saw
what we were doing, but they were satisfied with it.
We had Germans, we had white Russians, we didn't
have any Chinese. Chinese took care of all their own.
They arrested a lot of those, I don't know what they call
them. I forgot the word they use. They work with the
enemy, with the Japanese.
Q. How long did you stay in China?
A. Nine months.
Q. Where did you go from China?
A. We had so many points for time and combat time
and you got so many points. And so ones with the highest
points went first. And so that started -- let's see, the
war was over in August. In February. And some loose
ones, some of the first ones, one or two, they had the
end of their four-year enlistment. Some of them wanted
to go anyway even after they wanted to go to China
anyway. But they had enough.
Q. So you were going to go right home and be
discharged, but you went to China?
A. Going to go right to San Diego. That's where I
shipped out of. Although my last training was in
Pendleton, twenty, forty miles up the coast.
Q. Do you remember your last day in service over in
China before you came home?
A. My service record would show when I boarded the
ship. That would be it. I got -- then when I got on the
ship, we had to go up to a port that today is Beijing.
Then it was Tin Sing (ph).
And Beijing and then Tin Sing and then Tin Yum
(ph) or something like that. Two big cities up there.
They are different names today so nobody knows much about
that.
Anyway, the port was Bacook (ph). And we
anchored out there, and they came with a boat load of
Marines to pick up. And there was a couple, about half a
dozen of my buddies. Boy, did we have a day.
And one of the funniest things about getting on
that ship, roll call. Registered to leave, give out the
roll call, and they went through. They went by this --
it didn't matter to me then at the time.
And it was Moosall. And, anyway, to the hell
with him. We started, and then we headed for Hawaii.
That's what -- we didn't know where we were going. We
were going home.
At that time, the next day when they give roll
call again in the morning, they kind of put -- the
sergeant says Monosool or Moosall. And there just
happened to be a kid next to me. And there was something
Plattsburg, New York. I said, "Hey, are you from
Plattsburg?" I said, "I'm from Keeseville. We'll go
home together anyway."
So Moosall. He said, "Jeez, if I can get out of
here. I ain't on the list." He says, "I ain't on the
list."
So I says to him, "They won't turn around and
bring you back there. Don't be worried about it. Tell
your sergeant. Tell him that he didn't recall your
name." So I went with him. I said, "I'll go over with
you."
And so the sergeant took the list and he comes
down to -- and Moosall says there it is right there. He
says Manasoo. No. No. It's Moosall. You know, he
never corrected. The next day would be Manasoo, Manasoo.
Anyway, so we landed in Guam just to pick up
some more Marines going home. Then we landed in Guam.
We stayed there. Oh, we had steak five times a day.
They wanted us to reenlist. But, no. I want to go home.
So all Marines east of the Mississippi would go
to Bainbridge, Maryland. And all of the Marines west of
the Mississippi would be discharged right there at San
Diego. That's the decision made.
And so on the way, we left on the train and I
think it was the second day, time, probably about 60
hours. We were in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. That's when
we got in the train wreck.
Q. And it was Marines on the train?
A. 208 Marines. And the news clipping, it will say
two Marines, but no names given. Two. That's all that
was released of the names. The major -- when we got into
the train wreck.
And I went up for observation for a concussion
on the side of my head. And there was about thirty of us
in a bus. And all the others -- not thirty, about
twenty. And there was another ten or fifteen that had
burns from steam.
Q. How many Marines died?
A. They give two. But I know five. And what I
saw, there was ten of them, at least. This here -- now
here's what it is.
With the train wreck, how we came along the
curve and
later some of this stuff I found out later, but
I talked to two -- I was helping guys out of the train.
There was two railroad men standing there. And he said
it had been raining for three days and the Susquehanna
River had swole over and it undermined the bedding of the
railroad track. And we come to this curve, the engine
went right into the -- you have to see some of the rails
all twisting in there. It went right into the ground.
Behind there was a box car where all our bags
were in, sailed right over and the smokestack must have
ripped the whole side over. The picture shows -- I had
my kids make a big picture of this like it better, about
this size. You can see the little dots if you know what
it is. I was on the left window like that. And our car
went right over like this. We went flying all of us. We
were all injured, I mean, banged up.
They landed on a rupture in steam that came
through window. My friend, Frank, I got him out, the
first one, when I got ahold of him myself, I was out in
the aisle. And it was full of steam. You couldn't see.
I recognized Frank. He was on his hands and knees. I
don't know how I recognized him. I think I saw his name.
Rizzo. Because I couldn't see by his face. I didn't
look at his face.
And I got him. I was able to get him up to the
door. And at the time I claimed I carried him out
myself. I know I had him on my back. But when I saw the
pictures here just a few years ago when my kids were able
to get on the internet, I said, I can't tell anybody even
now because I couldn't get him off on my back six feet in
the air. I can't tell that story. I can't tell it.
And then I was able to find a guy, my kids
helped me, did all this work, we had a newsletter that
our Sixth Division comes out as a member. And we get
information. And in there, it says, can we help. And I
looked, and I had been looking about six years in there.
But it's an SOS, and I looked at the nature of the letter
in there. I used to just look for names to see if I
recognized the name, but I didn't read all of them.
Got ahold of my son there. I said, hey, there's
my answer right there. If I can put it in there and
these people are getting responded, I'll find the guys
that I was with. I'll bring you the newsletter to show
you. I have it. I got a response between telephone
calls, about fifteen Marines. All names, addresses and
phone numbers were on that train.
Q. So did you figure out from --
A. Well, then the things started falling in place.
When I had Frank up to the door, I jumped down on the
ground and a guy by the name of Jack Houston and Moosall,
my friend Moosall, put him on my back, put this Frank
Rizzo (ph).
Q. Rizzo?
A. Rizzo. And he's from -- he was -- his home
address was in the Queens section of Long Island. And we
had a lot of plans that we were going to do and see his
kid and all.
Then I had him on my back. And I walked over to
the next track. And just over the other track, the main
track, there was a little shelf like along the railroad
track, about that high. And I brought Frank up. I had
him on my back. He was about 160 pounds. And I put him
down like that. That was a shock. His face was
completely cooked. Eyes open. They were gray balls. He
was live. Anyway, the blood, he had all burned his
inside of his mouth and all like that.
And I said to somebody, take care of him. And
so I went back on the train, and I went down, and I slid
down, it must be like this. And a hard job getting those
guys out. And I could carry, help a lot. And finally
the steam was starting to stop, you know. It was coming
up. And guys were all -- their backs were showing. It
was all wet with the steam and everything.
I looked out through the door and I saw the box
car through the door and I saw the swollen river. I was
right close to the river like that down the whole side of
that bank. But the pictures don't show it because that's
all we can get. These were done by some historical
society.
So anyway, to get back to the story. If you
take a pan with buns, you know, how they have all little
buns, that's all I can see, all bundled up all the guys
backs. Some of them with broken backs, broken legs,
cooked and all that stuff. No information on this at
all, I doubt very much, the way this was covered up it
was covered up. I don't think I could do it any better
than what I did of getting the information here and with
my sons through the internet.
And Jack took care of Frank, and he wrote to me,
he called it, it looked like a cooked chicken is the
way -- he has his own way. In your own words, like in
your own words. And you get the best.
Q. And then --
A. Then we stayed in the hospital up in -- it's no
longer there. Middleton Air Force Base. One of the guys
in the group now knows what I was talking about. He's an
Army man. But it's an Army base, Air Force.
And then we got through Bainbridge, Maryland, on
the 29th. That's when I got discharged. There was
nothing to it. Just boom.
Q. The 29th of what?
A. May 1946. My discharge will show that.
Q. And where did you go home to, New York?
A. Then we started for home. And we rode the train
to New York. And I said, no more. I ain't going to --
so anyway, I said I don't want to stay on that thing.
The rumbling and all this.
So anyway, we changed our mind and we got
another train from Albany -- from New York to Albany.
This time I says, "No, way." I was with this Moosall.
He was going to Plattsburg. I said, "Look, we'll get a
place in the USO. 25 cents you can get in and get a
shower. And in the morning," I said, "we'll get out
there. It's Memorial Day that day, and we'll hitchhike
and people will see us in uniform."
It worked good. First car come along in Albany,
we were right on Route 9, rode to Saratoga Springs. And
we stopped four or five times on the way up. They bought
us beers and we got home, oh, before dark.
Q. What did you do for a career after you got out
of the service?
A. That's when I -- see, I had a job promised in
Bristol Brass, in Bristol. So I came back. I stayed
A. Yeah. That's in Bristol.
Q. Is that what you did for your career for the
rest of your life before you retired?
A. No. I got active in the labor movement. United
Auto Workers. And I was president of my union at Bristol
Brass. And I played a little politics. We were -- Ella
Grasso was running for secretary of state. And I said,
she's the girl to do it. She will do a good job.
So I got a commitment everybody in my union, 400
of them to vote for her. And I had a (inaudible) at the
plant gate and a little publicity with the Bristol Brass
and all. I did the same thing with Toby Moffett too when
he ran as a congressman. I know how it works.
Anyway, and things went on. I talked to her
when she was there. And finally one day, the
commissioner who was a UAW man jumped the fence and went
to work for Skullhus (ph). And then the deputy
commissioner of the labor department was promoted as
commissioner. And so we had enough -- we had a good --
good support for Ella.
And so my director said that the job should be
filled by a UAW man. And so he put my name in the basket
and when I got the call over there, she appointed me
deputy labor commissioner.
Q. In Connecticut?
A. Yeah.
Q. You were the deputy labor commissioner?
A. Yeah.
Q. You moved to Connecticut from New York?
A. No. I forgot. I was in -- all this time here
I'm telling you, I was working in the brass mill, and I
was working union work too and building up with politics
and all. Run for town -- Avon is a republican town.
Q. You lived in Avon, Connecticut then?
A. First time I lived in Bristol and then I got
married in 1949. And so I moved out to Avon. Built
right next to where my wife lived.
Q. And how many kids did you tell me you had.
A. Four. I didn't put down kids on there though.
Four boys.
Q. All boys.
A. Yup.
Q. Did you join any veterans organizations?
A. No. I stayed with my division. I attended
some. I attended some retirement group -- not
retirement.
Q. Reunions?
A. Reunions.
Q. That was my next question. So you said it's the
Sixth Division Striker?
A. Striking Sixth is the title of our newsletter.
Q. Striking?
A. Yeah. Striking Sixth.
Q. Did your military experience influence your
thinking about war or the military in general?
A. Yes. It's always -- I don't know what I would
have done now if she didn't get me out of -- I got my
story out now. And I got somebody to believe me. It's
impossible to -- the newspapers even said that the --
even right there with the picture, the little bit of news
they had said the engine toppled into the canal. And
they talk about two guys got scalded. How can you get
scalded when the engine is in the river?
But it don't matter. They put it in there and
somebody picks it up, okay. But it's local and there's
no big news down there. One of them lived in Harrisburg,
maybe it would be on. But that's how this -- by not
releasing names, it stayed right in Harrisburg, this
wreck was just another wreck. That's all. Frank's name
never shows in no place. No addresses given. I point
that out how effective it was then.
And why I could not when I filed claims for my
hearing that they fabricated a physical examination with
information I gave to them that I didn't remember when I
was -- my side of my head and all. And were able to
shove it down my throat because I couldn't prove it.
They had it down there. I told them I wanted the medical
report out of Bainbridge, Maryland, but the medical exam
I got was at the Air Force. It was the day before. So
they put down on the medical report the 28th. I wasn't
there in Bainbridge on the 28th. I was up in
Pennsylvania on the 28th in a train wreck.
Now, I've appealed it. They gave me 40 percent
disability in my hearing. But I still say that because
the medical report that they had showed me that with
no -- nothing when I was discharged was used against me.
And I probably have 60 or 70 today of -- I can appeal
every two years.
But that's what they did to me there. And they
fabricated things in there that is complete lies. And
being secret. And that's why today now somebody gets
killed, it's in the night paper. None of that stuff
happened in World War II.
Q. Is there anything else that you'd like to add
that we haven't covered in this interview?
A. I think you got it pretty well. And then I can
help you out with some pictures and things what I was
talking about. Then you'll be able to grab it better.
Q. Well, I'd like to thank you so much for sharing
with me, Mike.
A. I've been happy to do it just for the sake of
Frank and the guys that didn't get that publicity.
Another thing that bothers me, I'm a fighter. I
got into fights protecting somebody. And I was brought
up that way. A big family. I come from a family of
fourteen -- nine boys and five girls. I'm the oldest
now. There's only three of us left. So that was all
those things in the background what I knew what it was to
fight, to eat and all that.