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We know that some of the most prominent researchers in the field of altered states of consciousness
such as Charles Tart and yourself
are paying a lot of attention to parapsychology
Could you please elaborate the connection between this field
and the field of academic studies of consciousness and its states?
Yes, I said that transpersonal psychology has very little status,
very little visibility in the American psychology
Parapsychology has even less!
Parapsychology is down at the bottom
in terms of academic psychology
It has almost no recognition
And I have personally attempted to change this a little bit
I have put together a book called Debating Psychic Experiences
with some of the leading critics of parapsychology
debating some of the leading proponents of parapsychology
And so this is being published by a major American publisher
and there is a great deal of mentioning of altered states of consciousness in this book
Now, let me tell you what the direct links are
Parapsychological experiences
in Western countries
are not a part of ordinary, everyday life
because there is no time for that
Ordinary consciousness is too busy
too preoccupied
So, when they occur they sort of have to sneak in the back door
if we use an English idiom
and come in dreams,
come in spontaneous visions,
even come when people have taken drugs
or when people are doing meditation
Well, the link here is that some of these are exactly
the ways that shamans and yogis had psychic experiences
thousands of years ago
They used mushrooms in Siberia,
they used yogic postures in India and other countries in Asia,
they used drumming...
Even when altered states of consciousness were part of the general culture
shamans and yogis had to accentuate very probably
to have telepathy, clairvoyance, premonitions, out-of-body experiences
with a little help from outside agents
such as drugs and drumming and dancing
We have, in this dialogue, criticized such religions
as Buddhism and Christianity
for being a little bit harsh on shamanism
but of itself does Christianity
—of course, we know about Buddhism—
but does Christianity have something valuable to offer to transpersonal studies
in terms of mystical experiences
What is your opinion on this?
Well, I think that every religion has something to offer in terms of transpersonal experiences
For me religious institution
is a human institution
Not an institution set up by God
—that's ridiculous to think about it that way
Even though most religions claim
that they are the one religion
or one true religion
Religions are human institutions
They are going to have their positive sides
and they're going to have their negative sides
When Christians came to the United States
one of the things they did was to kill the Shamans
not only suppress shamanism
But we have photographs of shamans having their skin stripped off
because the Christian missionaries thought they were doing
the work of the Devil
Also, some of the Shamans
had different points of view on homosexuality
They would have sex with members of their own gender
This was terrible for the Catholics
who were very homophobic
very much afraid of homosexuality
They were heretics!
So they were punished severely
So Christianity does not have a good record
in terms of helping Native American shamans
and probably sent the Shamans back a couple of hundred years
Now shamanism is coming again to Native American settlements
Now, on the positive side, there are many Christian traditions
that used prayer, that used contemplation, that used music
to alter consciousness and put them in a receptive mood
to hear what they think are the voice of God
and messages from the Holy Spirit
So yes, this could be studied
and this is where Christianity and Christian practices
could make valuable contributions to transpersonal studies
We have talked to many undergraduate and graduate students
who want to pursue career in consciousness studies
and altered states of consciousness studies
and as a leading expert in this field
what would you say to those
who are about to begin their path
as altered states researchers?
Well, what I tell people in the United States is
if you're interested in studying altered states of consciousness
you have to find an institution which would allow you to study
In Saybrook University we have many students
who pursue studying altered states
Very few universities in the United States are
And many of them are in California
that are very favorable
Not only Saybrook University,
Californian Institute of Integral Studies,
the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology,
John F. Kennedy University
are schools of this nature
So I tell them
"Yes, you can study altered states of consciousness
but also make sure that you know enough psychology
so that you can get a job
in mainstream psychology and psychotherapy
if there's nothing available on altered states research
So I have students who know a lot about altered states
and they are at universities teaching educational psychology,
clinical psychology,
physiological psychology,
and other mainstream courses
There maybe one course on altered states
if they're lucky
So you have to be practical
you have to protect your future
you have to know how you're going to be able to make a living
once you have finished your studies on altered states
and research on altered states
because there are very few jobs available
very few jobs available in the altered states field
I suppose that the best way to get a job
is to try to get a job in the field of altered states
that has some connection with mental health or physical health
like the use of meditation for hypertension
or the use of prayer to facilitate the immune system
and this is where you can get grants
The use of relaxation to fight insomnia
so there are many medical conditions
that can be helped by altered states
so that people don't have to rely on doing completely by taking drugs
many of which have serious side effects
I think this is important frontier
for transpersonal psychology and for altered states
and that's the field of what we call "mind-body medicine"
At Saybrook it's possible to get certificates in mind-body medicine
We have a whole college of mind-body medicine
We teach hypnosis, biofeedback
and other areas where people can get practical skills
that will eventually help them get jobs
where they can put their interest in altered states of consciousness research
to practical use
Thank you! Thank you very much for the interview!
Thank you! And good luck with your website, it's very important to do...