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five halifax
over the four passes re as regard to such a fall across france ke senior
editor at fort affair cities also lol throat unspoken alliance israel secret
relationship
with apartheid south africa
such or winter
thanks for being with us first let's start with this what is the goldstone
report
well-developed on report is u_n_ document patent that
detailed reinvent took place
during the really incurred in and got up and the two thousand hickman early two
thousand nine
and it turned into a massive controversy over the past few months
the cuz
many in israel and many israelis
pro-israel
people in the united states
i have an attack on israel legitimate uh... so what we're seeing now
if the character attacked on the man who was in charge of the road
part riverfront that persons who wish to understand richard cope
which bring that article that i wrote yes but first once in a goal so report
that uh... people are so worried about
it complicated but put it that way i would
favorite people
he'll put it have
unfairly targeted israel
date on the it
invasion of gaza which
many israelis widow
you would done
for security purposes
and the gold film report
eventually accuses israel committed war crimes during that
incursion into dr
and it'd be cool unreported very critical of what the israeli army id
in gaza as you know there was a lot of destruction there are a lot of civilians
killed
and it's hard to put
israeli defense forces committed war crimes
head really
angered people allright both in israel and
in the pro-israel community stuff sorrel boots
detectable suffers as for saying that by saying
well it's not true we didn't kill civilians there were not disproportion
responses or yeah well you know we did that but you know what ghost was a bad
guy
well i would put it somewhere in between jack i mean
and most of the response of that i think the uh... what argues with that
the
the
the level of violence
wasn't necessary given
the way that uh... i'm off fighters were positioned on the third really to argue
that arrow people were used as human shields but yet we destroyed entire
apartment building
the back because they were from people with guns on the route for
there are a lot fighters hiding inside there
for chapter phi and
goldblum report found that some of these things work were war crimes and empathic
pl doorman that is what has really that people are israel because they think
that goldstone and did report
he'd served with him at the state of israel and prevent from defending itself
on the right answer
well think of also force so pastor
pretty the legitimize and some other way so what is that way that they have chose
and event lots of different ways with the latest is
to attacked him for his record as a judge
under the old apartheid government in south africa
during the nineteen eighties
and both of the particularly hypocritical effected my opinion because
as argued in my heart and compose today that my book
israeli government was actually the most significant harm supplier
through the whole south african apartheid regime during the late
nineteen seventies in the early nineteen eighties
so program of all people or israeli government officials
to keep gold sort of having worked for an unjust racist regime seems to me
the height of hypocrisy but the before we go to israel's signs with the
apartheid in south africa
what'd the analyst goldstone work with old government been obviously nelson
mandela a massive
i've been irate about that and probably hates the guy right now i'm not at all i
mean i actually can't what happened here
during the transition here
and south africa early nineteen nineties after mandela was let out of prison
before the nineteen ninety four elections
goldstone chaired a very important commission armed public
violent
and
his finding the mathematician actually in my opinion
helped pave the way for a peaceful transition and avert
a civil war the maryland south africa with
many people in the early nineteen nineties
feared might happen in the bentley what
goldberg commission back then
uh... in in nineteen ninety one ninety
in ninety three
found the world that party regime security forces
or actually acting as a so-called covert
for and fomenting violence between different black groups in south africa
and in an effort to undermine the election and so
what he found back that was actually quite important
institute where for
a peaceful transfer of power and so when mandela was elected president in
nineteen ninety four
he actually unbreakable
dawn and appointed him to the constitutional court with his south
african equivalent of the different court
uh... and gold from career from that point not included various important
positions within the u_n_ including the
you reply war crimes tribunal above it
so now let's get to the heart of your book done spoken aligned relations with
apartheid in south africa
i did not know very much about a month lows reading up on some stuff that uh...
you had written
well how deep was that relationship
well with the repeat thank it
started out uh... and actually a a total possible relationship in the nineteen
fifties israel was actually very critical
of the park it in south africa and progress strong moral stand against it
did not
at the racist every possible opportunity
but by the early nineteen seventy for a variety of reasons including various
african date
allied with
israel's arab enemies israel started to move towards south africa after the
young people who are in nineteen seventy three
they eventually got in bed with the park agreement from that point forward
armed failed and create and by the mid-nineteen eighties after some other
countries including the united states fault
selling barbara south africa israel was really the most
significant and important supplier
and what i try to do in the
book occurs
partially for personal reasons but my parents were both south africa and
they're not jewish
is to try and understand how animation of refugees and holocaust survivors at
got into bed with the white supremacist groups team
guide who wouldn't be the ethically supported hitler during world war two
etc seemed like altman paradox infer that the question that i really open the
book with is so it's a great great question i mean there's so many details
on how they work together so disturbing
but that was the heart of where i wanted to go
he did it and what what how
nor mister turnaround that you would imagine would be unconscionable so won't
why did they do it
well for one thing
where in the middle of the cold war during this period so you have to take
that into account south africa
fighting
soviet and cuban funded enemy that ordered their fear was that they were
going to be a communist
take over from within and without
it was
overstated and paranoid in my opinion but there was a real war going on the
haha south africa's borders though
you have to take that into account and
israel uh... has always faith
uh... you know enemies on the orders and attacks
the u_s_ and that part of why people are so angry a cold front for their coverage
you that the part of the fame pattern
but what happened between the two countries essentially is that
first it was an extremely beneficial economic relationship for israel because
israel needed export market for its arms industry which is very important to the
drew economy
and south african leader dot because it couldn't get them anywhere and that
problem dot even working for the up africans in the early eighties but
there was a mandatory u_n_ embargo pretty much everyone observed that
except israel and for that on israel became ineffectual wek
uh... so for economic reasons one and secondly there was
ideological element too and that's not fair to everyone in israel fought south
african apart patriot was great i don't argue that
by any means but there were certain leading general
in israeli
military and certain politicians on the right wing of the political spectrum
especially in the likud party performed quote relationships with various leading
official from apartheid regime and all of the documented in my book through
correspondence between people like arial for rom
and counterpart in the thought that the military thankfully we've got riffing
each other
in letter that we're fighting the fame
animee from one to push up into the p_m_ they thought malcolm on bella
and yup there are five thirty five of the famed quantities and they thought
that their struggle with a common
fight and so it was off of the find uh... ez for uh... a common battle
during the nineteen eighties and you know we're very short on time here will
obviously had nothing to do with communism and since i'm so deluded
themselves are seen evidence
but the real similarity was they had this
bothersome problem of a significant minority
that they just didn't have any interest in giving any power trip
well that part of it here and i mean this is a more difficult question
because harder document but there were definitely certain people
on the right wing in israel who are interested in the way that south africa
with dealing with this internal problems
arial toronto's one of the even i talk about that a little bit of the book and
the from other journalists who've written about it over the years
but primarily what i focus on his the military relationship and also
cooperation in the nuclear here because both of these countries
we're developing nuclear weapons ban people tend to forget at the top effort
that was actually a nuclear power and build nuclear bombs during the nineteen
seventies and eighties and israel was involved with that after and south
africa was also involved in selling iranian derail
which helped israeli nuclear program
if you look at this is how you lose your soul not by bad intentions but by good
intentions people six we've got to descend israel by any means necessary
and was just are going on that road that's an ugly ugly wrote
in oc israel got rescued on the front because south africans government got
toppled
serb-croat but uh... you know
we now everybody wishes they have gone down that road but that's what happens
when you give in to the right wingers in your own government
who want to push in that direction
i hope that israel is going to make that mistake in the you know and its current
government
but it looks like that so i would
i would agree with me but i'm not perfect but what could happen it
what happened with the recently proper or are you know they're basically
attacking him
for perhaps record back in the day when in fact they were doing something
much much more important much much worse tourists
support the government ap
in south africa
i think that what you're feeling id trying to discredit both run by any
means necessary because
thirty people and they are on the current government really seen him in
his room
reporters of
that israel and i think uh... tapped overstated like that that in the article
i think that the market in the criticism
of the report and that the debate worth happen but the campaign of character
assassination that they've been pursuing
for the last week is orderly ridiculous unlike the district find such a volatile
surrounds the author of the unspoken alliances will seek relations with
apartheid south africa and you could join us on him to sweepers thank you