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Eric: Welcome to Tap Your App. I am your host, Eric Dyck, co-founder of Tap For Tap, the
free cross-promotion exchange for mobile application developers. Today we are lucky to have Matt
Palmer on the show. He is the founder and CEO of Marketing Your App, which you can find
at MarketingYourApp.com. MarketingYourApp.com is a mobile app marketing company that helps
iPhone, iPad, and Android developers get more exposure, new customers, and increase sales
on the App Store or Google Play. Welcome to the show today, Matt. how are you doing?
Matt: Thank you, Eric. I am doing great. How are you?
Eric: Very well. Very well here in Victoria. You are in Cambridge,
Massachusetts?
Matt: Yes, we are. It's a beautiful fall day here, and I'm really excited
to be on your program. I've seen your other videos, and I am very thrilled
to share some tips with your developer community.
Eric: Well, I know they will appreciate it. Why don't we just start by tell
me a little bit about how you got started in the business.
Matt: Absolutely. Well, I worked at ad agencies and worked on the publisher
side and seeing that mobile was just the new way to go. I worked in online
marketing but everything is going mobile. So I started to put information
out there about how people could make the most of the App Store. This is
about two years ago which is a lot in mobile time, I guess.
People just kept asking me can you do more and more. Can you help me with
my app or my game is not doing so well in the App Store. That's how I've
gotten the ideas for different products and different services, really just
what the community seems to need. As the mobile app world is growing up. It
is very exciting.
Eric: You definitely scored a good domain.
Matt: Oh, thanks.
Eric: MarketingYourApp.com, that's pretty good.
Matt: Years ago it was more open but now it seems impossible to find
anything with app in it as well.
Eric: Nice. It is definitely something that we found doing these podcasts
and just talking with developers, that there are so many developers that
care so much about their product. They put all of their creative energy
into building a great app. Then when it comes time to marketing it, it's
not maybe their area and so they don't come with a marketing plan.
Increasingly, you just need to have that marketing plan.
Matt: I think you are absolutely right. That is one of the things. I try to
talk about the most. Is that if you start with more of a marketing plan and
you do some forward-looking thinking about who is my audience? How am I
going to sell this? How am I going to advertise it? What services will I
use, such as Tap for Tap and others like that? If you think about that
before you even make the app or before you release the app, you are just
going to be so far ahead of everyone else in the App Store, who too often I
have seen throw their app up in the App Store. Then unfortunately don't
really have an idea of how they are going to market it. I know it certainly
is tricky, but there are a lot of resources out there. I am hoping we can
go over some of those today.
Eric: It is that sort of Field of Dreams mentality that I guess you are
fighting against. I think probably in the beginning there were a lot of
success stories that they just built an app, found the right vertical and
if they build it people came. With something like 1.3 million apps in those
two stores Google Play and iPhone store, you just can't get by with that
anymore. So let's jump right into it here. What's the number one question
that your app clients come to you with?
Matt: I think it is I have this great idea. I have this app. How do I get
people to hear about it? That is just sort of a universal question. Whether
they are just starting out with an idea or whether their app has been in
the App Store for six months or a year, it's how do I get people to hear
about it. Unfortunately, I don't have the silver bullet. If there is
someone out there who does hopefully, you will find them on your show. I
don't think anyone has the one simple answer that is going to drive
everyone to your app. I think it is instead a combination of things.
I talk about maximizing your presence in the App Store. You can talk a
little bit more about App Store optimization and kind of the App Store
being a giant search engine. So making sure that you are found when people
are looking for whatever type of app you might have. But then not sitting
back and waiting for sales to come to you but maximizing your presence
across the Internet. So looking outside the app store. There are so many
even free and low-cost ways to get your name out there that if you are a
little creative even if you don't have the world's biggest budget or
biggest team, you can get your app known.
Eric: Nice. What are a couple of those methods? Once you get your app out
there. What are some of the free easy methods that developers can use?
Things like blogs and review sites and stuff like that?
Matt: Absolutely. First, I would start inside the App Store. As I
mentioned, there are only really a couple of ways that people can find you
in the App Store. They can browse around. But that often takes just too
much time. There are thousands and thousands of games, for example. They
can search for you in the App Store. Unfortunately, just like Google if you
have a webpage out there, you have to show up towards the top of the search
listing inside the App Store. Or else you'll just be buried. It is those
two ways inside the App Store. Those are completely free. Maximize your app
description and your app keywords and then look outside the App Store. You
mentioned blogs and review sites. Those are some basic and free ways to get
your name out there.
Eric: I think that is pretty interesting. You came from an online marketing
background. I assume search engine marketing was some of that?
Eric: It is, absolutely. The App Store search engine is not that different
from Google. Both of them are not a secret. From what Apple and Google have
released and from different tests that I've seen and I've tried myself,
they are not that dissimilar.
Eric: I came from a search engine marketing background as well. I can
imagine putting your app out there and really trying to determine the
keywords that people are looking for around your topic. And then sort of
populating your app description with those keywords. Obviously, that's some
basic stuff but probably stuff a lot of developers maybe, don't think about
is that research aspect especially.
Matt: It is. It all goes back to thinking about who would want my app? If
it's a weather app. If it's an app for New York City. If it's an app for
parents or teens. Who would want my app? From that, what sort of keywords
might they look for when they are searching for my app? You mentioned a
couple of important things. Not only will people look for it in the App
Store but also people are searching Google for apps. Even though your app
is in the App Store, Google can still find your app because of that iTunes
preview page that shows up on the web. So don't forget, as you say, about
writing a good app description making sure that Apple can find you and
Google can find you.
Eric: Interesting. Do you have any experience with icon design and
different sort of experiments? I know I've seen lots of different studies
about how important icon design can be, to be that sort of first impression
that a user will get of your app.
Matt: Many of our clients sort have come to the end of making their app.
The interface looks great. The game works great. But, "Uh-oh, we don't have
an icon." So, we help them design an icon or overhaul their icon. It may
just look like a pretty picture, but actually if you do a search in the App
Store, for any popular keyword you're going to see over 100 different
search results. Suddenly, all you have to go on pretty much is a couple of
words, the app name and the icon. So as you are scrolling around if it
stands out, if it looks professional, that is sort of the first impression
that people are going to get of your app. If the icon doesn't look good and
the screenshots don't look good, why is anyone going to bother reading your
100, 200, 300 word app description.
Eric: That's right and if a picture has 1000 words, you have already said
it all.
Matt: Can you get across your message really in that little square icon,
whether you have some sort of utility or whether an app or game? Can you
explain your concept in just a couple of inches there?
Eric: App naming, I'm sure is a pretty important thing as well? That goes
back to the keywords a little bit, of making sure that the most important
keyword is front and center in your app name. Again, this is all pretty
simple stuff. But app name is obviously a hugely important thing as well.
Matt: It may seem simple but actually that could be the difference between
your app showing up in a search results. Or someone seeing your app and
quickly understanding what it does versus someone just passing over your
app. I would include keywords in the app name. You could put your app name
and then maybe a dash and maybe a couple of keywords. I would definitely
include those keywords there. But also make sure that you are not stuffing
too many keywords in all the various places. It does have to be readable,
likable, and understandable as well.
Eric: People are more important than spiders in the long run.
Matt: Yeah. It's people and not spiders, who will actually be buying your
app. So, do what you can to maximize the algorithm and the spiders. But
make sure that people will actually be buying your app.
Eric: I've heard a lot about different approaches that people take. I have
about heard people that like to start their app as paid so that there is a
value associated with it and then they make it free. That is a strategy.
Then the blogs that will report the price drops, for instance, and you will
get some promotion from that. That's the one way to go. The other is just
stick with your price. It is a product that you have created. Just stick to
that and drive paid apps. Then there is the freemium model with the
upgrade. I guess it is all dependent on different apps. I'm just curious in
your experience. What are some of the trends that you have seen with those
ideas?
Matt: There is definitely a trend toward lower prices and even free apps.
The single most popular price in the App Store today is free. The second
most popular price is $0.99. It is only about 5% of the App Store that is
above five dollars. If you think that you are going to put your app in the
App Store for $6, $7, $10, it probably won't fly. You are really going to
have to have a very unique app that speaks to a specific audience that is
willing to pay that much. We consistently see that the top performing and
the most popular games and apps are often free. They have found some other
way, as you say, to monetize that app. If it is in-app purchases or
advertising or assigning some sort of virtual goods or maybe just promoting
some other services that they have, if they are selling movie tickets or
selling service, they have found something else. But it just seems more and
more apps are going free. More and more customers are demanding lower
prices or a free experience.
Eric: What is the most you have ever paid for an app?
Matt: One of our clients is RainAware. It is an app that tells you in five
minutes, in ten minutes, it is going to rain. What they did was build
their own weather algorithm. So very interesting, they put a lot of hard
work into this. We were able to explain that this is a unique app. It is
not like the other weather apps that you get out there. That was sold for,
at least, five or six dollars. People were happily paying that and actually
it climbed for a while to the number one weather app even beating out some
of the big names because it was a very unique offering. People who like
checking the weather want to know, if they are going to need an umbrella or
if they are going to get rained on.
Eric: And they wanted that leg up on all the suckers just watching the
Weather Network.
Matt: Right. Exactly. If you don't want to sit there and try to decipher
what the Doppler fuzzy bubbles mean. They have a very unique value
proposition that in just a couple of minutes it is going to rain.
Eric: Cool That is a really profound story, I think. Just to show that when
you can come to the market with something truly unique and you can position
it in the right way, that it can work quite well.
Matt: It does. It is just a matter of explaining it. Especially, with games
most of the apps out there are games. A lot of people have really great
ideas for a game. But they are completely unique and no one has ever heard
of zombie bowling or something like that. It is just a matter of how are
you going to explain that? Can you make a video? Can you put it on your
website? How can you tell that story? Because people have short attention
spans and may not understand. Why would I need zombie bowling? Or why would
I need a weather app, that is different than my free app I already have?
Eric: I spent $4.99 on Super Brothers Sword and Sorcery EP. Have you heard
of this app?
Matt: Super Brothers? No, I don't think so.
Eric: You should check it out. It's one of the most unique games that I
have ever seen. It is all in this old-school 8-bit style. But it's one of
the most inventive games I have ever seen. It uses the platform better than
I have ever seen a game. It is sort of this quest that takes you through.
You just have to sort of react with your environment in this very specific
way to make music happen. It is very strange. But then when it comes to the
soundtrack, there is an indie rock star who provided the soundtrack. The
whole game is incredibly well thought out and perfectly designed for the
platform. I was just blown away by it. I was happy to pay $4.99 for a game
that is that well thought out.
Matt: Absolutely. Sounds like you know a lot about the game. You probably
read the user reviews. You probably saw that it was not like your usual
game. That was worth maybe, a little extra for that. I'm sure you have told
your friends about it as well.
Eric: Yes, I am an evangelist for Super Brothers. I've seen many articles
written about it as well. It won some awards last year. It managed to get a
lot of press. Do you have any tips for getting press for app developers?
Matt: Yeah. Everyone dreams of climbing the charts and being on these
popular weblogs in the press. Definitely sending a press release helps. But
one press release alone is not going to get you on the cover of some major
magazine or newspaper. I think it is starting early if you can. Try to
think about which press outlets might be most interested in your app. There
seems to be a blog for everything. If it is an educational App. Games
certainly have their own sites that review and talk about them. Those
especially would be interested in your app.
Everyone, of course, wants to be on MacWorld or in Wired magazine. Those
are definitely harder. But if you can start early. But if you can start
contacting writers and bloggers early. Maybe, even offer them some
screenshots or some concept art or video of your app, even before it is in
the App Store. They love to get the sort of sneak peak and the first access
to your app. I would start earlier to try to cut through all the other
people who are trying to ask for media coverage as well.
Eric: That sounds like a pretty good tip for sure. I guess you just have to
have something unique to say. They're not going to report another puzzle
app, unless it has got something really special to it.
Matt: You're absolutely right. It is all about that story. Maybe, you
personally have an interesting story about how you came about creating the
app. Or maybe, the app itself is a unique offering. It is tough with over a
million apps out there.
Eric: Not everyone can be unique.
Matt: No, not everyone can be unique. It's about how can you pitch your app
and sell your app and explain your app. Maybe, you have just a small spin
on something that's more common.
Eric: I like that. When it comes to launching your app, what sort of
approach do you tend to advise your clients to take? A sort of measured
slower press trickle out, or do you try to have them launch with a ***?
Matt: Launching is very important. Just like it sounds like you are almost
launching a rocket. You are trying to get in the App Store. It is much more
than just submitting your app to Apple and hoping that people come and find
you which unfortunately is what a lot of developers do because often you
are very busy making your app, squashing all the bugs, and very excited to
get it in the App Store.
The process of launching your app as I talk about it is everything you do
to market it. The earlier you can start. Actually, if you can start
spreading the word even before your app is in the App Store, it gives you
more time and it gives you more chances to find potential customers out
there. It may sound backwards. You are going to start talking about a
product that doesn't exist, that people can't buy. But if you set up your
social media, if you create accounts on Twitter and Facebook even before
your app is already out there and try to get people excited for the idea of
your app. If you have a new game or a new utility or what not, try to get
them to visit your website. Even if it is a simple one page website and
build up that momentum so that on day one when your app is finally in the
App Store, you're just so far ahead of all other app developers because you
have an excited and engaged audience. You could send an email to them. You
could put a Twitter blast out to them, and suddenly you got all these new
customers. Wouldn't that be great to start earlier?
Eric: One of the other approaches I've seen people use with social media,
Twitter and stuff like that is to actually while they are building their
game, try to create an audience by engaging the audience. Caveman Golf was
someone I had on the program recently. They have designs of their dinosaurs
and they have people vote on which pterodactyl animation they should use
for their game. So they engage their audience and have them vote on how
they would like the game to look.
Matt: I like that. Maybe, you have some concept art. Maybe, you have some
questions for the community. I think many developers are kind of scared
that if they share their idea it's going to get stolen. But probably most
ideas have been done in one way or another. Maybe, they don't have all the
features you have or they have a different take on it. Just like you said,
I would recommend getting out there, asking questions, and people will tell
you what they would like to download and what they would like to buy.
Maybe, you are spending all this time on a feature that they don't really
care about as much as something else that you could add.
Eric: You mentioned that a website even if it is a simple one pager. That's
something you recommend as absolutely essential?
Matt: Yes. If you had to do just one thing maybe your app isn't live or
maybe your app is live. I would get just a simple one page website up there
because it gives you a lot more freedom than what you can do in the App
Store. In the App Store you just have an icon and a short description and
some screenshots, but there is no place for a video. There is on your
website. There is no place for any other thing that you can dream up, be it
an audio, a file, or some sort of interactive experience. Even more than
five screenshots you can't do in the App Store. But you can do on your
website. I would get that up. I would help Google to find it. Submit it to
the search engines to try to get your SEO in place. The earlier you can the
sooner people can start finding you.
Eric: So have you worked with developers of all stripes? Have you worked
with the small developers? Have any larger developers come to you guys for
tips on launching?
Matt: So far, it's mostly smaller developers and startups and more midsize
companies like that. I think the larger app developers knew maybe sooner
that marketing is super critical and they built up internal teams.
Hopefully, they are reading the website as well. I think smaller developers
and indie developers as well don't have those resources in-house and look
to people like MarketingYourApp to help them out with tips and with
services as well.
Eric: I guess, bigger brands sort of rely on the power of their brand
maybe, to get out there. I can see it coming very quickly where every brand
is going to have to rush to have some app out there. It is just going to be
a crowded space even for the big guys.
Matt: Yeah. It is getting more and more crowded. Unfortunately, there is
sort of a second App Store out there. There is the App Store that everyone
visits and downloads from. Then I feel like there is this almost invisible
App Store where you can't find these apps by browsing. They are not on the
top of the charts. Even if you were to search for them, they are very hard.
They're just sort of the zombie apps or invisible apps out there. They're
just sort of pushed to the sidelines of the App Store. It may be crowded
but there is only a small subset of apps out there that people are really
downloading and are able to find.
Eric: Interesting. I know Apple is a sort of always talking about
rearranging their App Store to be less based on lists and more based on
their genius product, them algorithmically determining the apps that you'd
want to see. It goes back to Google and search engine marketing. We'd have
a number of campaigns out for clients. Then one day we would come in and
Google's algorithm changed. All of our campaigns were no longer ranking in
the place that they were. I can see that cycle sort of threatening to
repeat itself all over again with app rankings.
Matt: You're absolutely right. Once Apple bought Chomp, people keep saying
that their search engine listings are going to change and it's going to get
more to contextual. Or as you said with the genius product it's going to
get smarter. It means that the app developers have to stay on their toes a
little bit that you never know when the algorithm is going to change and
there is a lot of competition out there, too. Even if Apple stayed the same
which they're not going to do, you would still have hundreds of thousands
of other apps competing with you. A very interesting space to be in but
challenging as well.
Eric: I remember with search engine marketing. Once an algorithm would
change, there would be a lot of experimentation that would go on where we
would test various ads or various keywords, campaign configurations and
stuff like that. Is there room for that kind of experimentation in the App
Store? Or do you have to stick with the plan rather than changing things up
to optimize on the stores?
Matt: There is. That's an excellent question. I would test and experiment.
It is a little tricky because there are is only certain things that you can
change without Apple needing to re-approve your app or without having to
resubmit your app. I would. I would test your keywords. I would test your
description, especially that opening line. If you go in the App Store, you
are only going to see the first three lines really of your description if
you are in iTunes before the rest of it is hidden. You have to click on
more to see the rest of it. I would test the opening line to see if people
are interested in that. Test your name to see if the keywords that you put
in there are you ranking for those? Are you ranking better for those? Those
are all free things you can do, but it does take time to go and measure
your results.
Eric: Do you advocate any products in particular for actually measuring
developers' results? Analytics packages or anything like that anyone's that
you recommend?
Matt: It is really exciting. It seems like every week there are new options
out there. For tracking apps, there are a lot of good options out there.
App Annie is one you could check, even if you don't install anything inside
your app. You mentioned App Store SEO. App Codes is doing something very
interesting with trying to recommend what type of keywords you should use
and tracking the rankings of those keywords. There is a lot out there. I
know you have a SEO, SEM background, all those Internet marketing tools as
well. Launch Rock for launching just a simple webpage or Unbalanced for
launching a simple webpage. You can adapt a lot of those Internet marketing
tools and use them for your app.
Eric: That's interesting. We talked a lot about free methods, viral
methods, ways like that. Do you have a lot experience at all with actually
buying media for apps? Is that something that you found works or doesn't
work?
Matt: It is. That is kind of what makes Tap For Tap exciting. It is a sort
of a different way to get your name out there without needing a large media
budget. Because a lot of the clients that we work with don't have that
large media budget. So if you start spending all kinds of money on Google
AdWords or on Facebook ads and you are selling your app for a dollar, it
doesn't quite work out. I would recommend and what we have done first is
often start with mobile ads. So you send like an iAds or MobClicks or what
not because people are already on their mobile devices. They obviously are
the right audience. They can just with one tap go and learn about your app.
As a second wave you might advertise on various app related websites. But
it is tough because banner ads don't often do as well as you might like.
But first I would start with advertising actually on the iPhone or actually
on your mobile device.
Eric: I think that is a simple and pretty profound tip with mobile being
the newer industry, too. There are less people taking advantage of it. So
the costs are less than it is going to cost to advertise on Facebook. To
advertise on Ad Mob or mobile. One of the reasons we started Tap For Tap is
we just heard stories again and again of these media budgets generally not
being cost effective for apps. Especially those ones that are coming in for
a dollar or around there. That they just weren't getting enough cost-
effectiveness out of it. That is why we started Tap For Tap. There are
other products as well. Have you had any experience with Tapjoy? Buying
incentivized installs for 10 or 15 cents.
Matt: Yeah, if that makes sense you really do have to look at the numbers.
If you have a free app and you're relying on app upgrades, you have to make
sure that it does make sense for you. Fiksu here in Boston is doing
something very interesting. It seems like that every month when they
release their report that the cost of getting a new user just climbs and
climbs. You do it to make sure that even if you are getting users and you
are very excited that it is cost-effective. And in the long run that they
are paying you more than you paid to acquire them.
Eric: I think that Fiksu is an interesting company. They have been on my
radar for quite a while in my previous performance marketing life as well.
They seem to have a really good content marketing play as well where that
index that you spoke of about the cost of what it takes to acquire not just
a user but a valuable user or an engaged user is how they do it. They have
actually become a source for journalists all over the world now who talk
about apps. They quote Fiksu's index. I think that is just a really smart
play on their part.
Matt: Hopefully, we don't hear about it every day. Sort of like the stock
market went up, the stock market went down. We could track it a little too
much. I always look for those reports because it's very interesting to see
how you could acquire new users.
Eric: Keep it to yourself, Fiksu. So, what is your personal favorite app?
Matt: Wow, personal favorite app. I just love finding new apps. It is
really, really interesting what is out there and what people will think of.
I don't know. There are just so many. With all of our clients trying to
come up with the next great game idea or the next utility, it is sort of
hard to pick one.
Eric: Which do you use the most?
Matt: What do I use the most? I am sort of a news junkie. So I get anything
like Flipboard that will bring me new content is fun, certainly when it's
on the iPad. You don't have to strain quite as much to read the contents.
I'm always impressed with what people do with their apps.
Eric: Flipboard. I have had three people that I have interviewed now
mention Flipboard. So I will definitely have to check that one out.
Matt: It is very cool. It brings you content and is very visually oriented,
especially beautiful on the iPad.
Eric: Cool. That sounds good. I will check out Flipboard and you check out
Super Brothers.
Matt: I will. I will. Absolutely.
Eric: I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. You can
find Matt at MarketingYourApp.com. We'll make sure we link to it in the
video description. Are you on Twitter as well? Is it @MarketingYourApp?
Matt: Yes, it is actually MktgYourApp is our Twitter handle. You can find a
link to that off of MarketingYourApp.com in case you can't find it on
Twitter.
Eric: Great. I advise any app developers out there to get in touch with
Matt and pick his brain a little bit about how to get your app out there.
Thanks again and I look forward to speaking with you in the future.
Matt: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Eric. It has been a pleasure to be
with you, and I will keep following all the great stuff that you're doing
there on Tap For Tap.
Eric: Great. Thank you.