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...If you have questions, please raise so we
can answer you.
In October to November last year, we had public consultation meetings.
We received a lot of comments from the public.
We first briefly share some of these inputs we received.
In October to 30 Nov 2013, roughly two months, we conducted public
consultation, including feedback forms,
we received over 2700 submissions from the public.
Most of the feedbacks said that AFCD should amend the law 139B, because
the current practice of the trade differs from what we is require by the law,
and hope to improve the law to address public concern including the trade and
animal loving community.
So, we know we need to amend it.
Only a very small number said that there is no need for to amend the law 139B.
Among the suggestions we received via our feedback forms, most of the
feedbacks showed that animal breeding and trading
should be regulated by the government.
.and, in the future, selling of dogs, whether
it's thru internet, magazines, etc, should show their licence numbers, and if they
have previously breached the law Cap.169
i.e. cruelty to animals, we can revoke their licences.
Over half of the feedbacks thinks that the raised penalty of $100,000 and $50,000
are sufficient... also there are comments about jail terms penalty.
From the variety of feedbacks, there are objections to the Category A breeder
license.
There are also a small number who say no to the one-off selling license.
The reason for the objection is they worry it will difficult for government to monitor
their behaviour and will encourage more people to join the pet selling and trading
business.
Most comments from NGOs and LEGCO members said AFCD should include other
species like cats in the long term, and they
said people in the trade should be properly
trained and passed certain examinations.
So, these are the most basic comments we received in the last consultation.
So, looking forward, we will include those comments, including the code of practice
we are doing consultation on ... and we will conclude and report all these to
LEGCO and the public around mid-April 2013.
So, four categories of licenses,
First one is Category A license...We will require those doing it in homes, include
those they own, and the ***, (4 or below) to make sure they have
enough space, hygiene.
Most imporantly, we have area requirement
Area requirement will be measured in actual saleable areas.
Each small dog is required to have at least
100 square feet.
Medium dog (40 to 60 cm height) is required to have 180 square feet each.
Large dogs need to have 250 square feet each.
In other words, if you have 4 small *** , you need at least 400 square feet.
For 4 big dogs, you need 1000 square feet
Also, we also count your own pets including
male or neutered pets.
For example, if you have 6 small dogs, we need 600 square feet.
If you have 2 other neutered dogs, they will be counted as well towards the area
needed.
In the premises, area for milk feeding should be separated from other dogs.
and should be lined with clean material and
cleaned every day.
and well ventilated and maintain reasonable
temperature and humidity.
Dogs should not be exposed to sun light too long, and lights turned off at night.
They should have sufficient time for exercise.
Eating and drinking utensils and toys should be cleaned every day.
The breeders should be able to tell when dogs are sick, take temperature for them.
..and tell basic characteristics and needs for
different breeds. They should have these knowledge.
When dogs are ready to mate or give birth, they should be separated from other
dogs, should be monitored by specific staff
They cannot use inhumane methods to force the dogs to mate.
Dogs should give birth between 18 months
and 6 years of age, and after the 2nd heat.
Each *** should not give more than 3 litters in 2 years, and should not exceed
6 litters throughout entire life.
Dogs should be microchipped by vet for identification.
All dogs should be examined by vets not less than 30 days before they are sold.
and should be vaccinnated against common
diseases.
Information about the dogs, including microchip numbers, vaccination, mother
should be properly documented.
Retiring dogs should be properly arranged
for adoption or desexing.
Okay, now we talk about Category B licensing conditions... i.e. 5 or more dogs.
The premises should ensure health of dogs. prevent spreading diseases.
Also, prevent rain and the weather..
We will not accept stacking of cages. and must not use transportation cages
as the living space.
basic cleaning of the cages and needed
The same area should only house dogs of the same size.
Each dog should have its own separate resting and separate moving area, or a
separate resting space and a shared exercising space.
In each premise, the exercising area at any one time should be used by one dog
only. But different dogs can use the same area at different time.
Each dog should have not less than one hour of exercising time each day.
Size of the required areas.. on next page...
For each small dog, resting area should not be less than 1.1 square meters.
Medium sized should not be less than 2.4 square meters.
Large dogs -- not less than 3.5 square meters.
Height of the enclosure should not be less than two times the dogs' height.
So, these are the resting areas.
For exercising areas, i.e. the shared area, for small dogs - not less than 7.4 sq
meters Medium dogs - not less than 11 sq meters
large dogs -- not less than 14.8 sq meters
For feeding areas, they should be separated
from other dogs and should be cleaned each day and properly laid with linen.
For dogs smaller than 5 months or unweaned dogs should be placed in
sufficient space i.e. not less than 3 times body length times and two times
[of what??]
The premises should be well ventilated and
temperature controlled, and humidity- controlled.
Also must not have too high level of ammonia. Should have at least 8 hours
of lighting and turned off at night.
Dogs should not be exposed to sunlight for
too long.
Sick dogs should be isolated.
Fire safety should comply with relevant requirements.
Regular checking of electricity supply.
Everything should be disinfected and cleaned every day, eating and drinking
utensils, toys, the kennels, etc.
Breeders are also required to record their time of feeding, type of feed, time of
exercise, and any irregularities and major accidents.
Staff should be trained to our satisfaction
Staff should be able to identify sickness of
dogs, characteristcs and needs of dogs.
Mating dogs and those giving births should be separated from other other
dogs and should be monitored.
and not force them to mate using inhumane methods.
Each *** should only give birth between 18 months (after the 2nd heat), and
6 years, and not more than 3 litters in 2 years, and not more than 6 litters in
their whole life.
Dogs should be microchiped by vet. And not less than 30 days from sale, they
should be examined and vaccinated by vet.
Those information should be recorded.
Breeding animals should be properly rehomed or desexed when they retire.
Each breeder should ensure they have services provided by a vet anytime they
need it. They should examine the dogs every day to see whether the dogs feel
sick.
If they suspect dogs are sick or hurt, they should let vet examine within 24 hours.
[Audience:] Each day examined by vet or by the staff?
No, of course not, the daily examination are not by vet.
[Audience:] ....so how do you know they comply?
Err....er.r....errr.. we will will..will..will... will...lllllook at their records every month.
We also require each dog have at least one hour of exercise.
When dogs have contagious diseases, they
should not be mixed together.
Except for unweaned puppies, all dogs must
be vaccinated by vet.
Now, we go to animal traders.
We require traders to house all dogs in proper containers rather than let them
roam around in the premises.
We don't allow transportation cages as the
permanent housing.
Size of the housing -- 3 times the body length and 2 times the body length
(length x width) Height not less the 2 times
the dogs' height.
Temperature of the pet shop should be reasonable range.Floor should be light up
not less than 8 hours.
All fire prevention should comply with relevant requirements...
Cleaning required every day for drinking and eating facilities, toys.
For grooming shops, dogs offered for sale should not be kept in grooming areas.
Dogs should not be kept in grooming areas
cages more than 12 hours or stay overnight.
Grooming dogs should not be kept in selling
areas.
Staff of animal traders should be trained to
our satisfaction, including ability to tell sickness characteristics and needs of
various breeds.
Dogs should be vaccinated by vet, and examined by vet not less than 30 days
before sales, and vaccinated.
All traders should have vet services available at all time.
and sick dogs should be treated by vet within 24 hours.
And we also have one-off license for selling dogs.
For these one-off license, we require the licensee to be the owner of the
microchipped dog, and not less than four months.
The dogs need to be vaccinated by vet not less than 14 days before sale.
In ten years, they can apply for the license not more than 3 times in 10 years using
such license.
And, in order to implement the above schemes, we will implement
DNA examination.
All *** (Category A and B), their ***
and puppies, they must let us collect their DNA, and we will, where necessary, do
testing with the DNA to ascertain the relationship of the dogs.
They must let us collect the DNA samples and we will issue a certification so that
they can sell the puppies with such
certification.
All DNA collection and testing will be carried
out by government personnel.
[Audience A: ] excuse me, you said that DNA will be sampled. Did you mean you
will collect DNA from all dogs concerned,
or just a sample of the dogs?
We will collection DNA from all the dogs, including Category A and B licenses.
[Audience A: ] DNA collected from ALL the dogs?
Yes, all the dogs. Not random sampling.
[Audience B: ] ..I think they misunderstood
you. I think you mean that DNA will be collected from all the dogs. But you will
not do DNA tests for all the samples
collected.
Yes, you are right.
In fact, the key is, we will ask the breeders to sign off and declare that the puppies
actually came from that mother.
And, if we turn out to do a DNA test and found out that the breeder falsely declare
the relationship, the breeder is not breaching
Cap.169, but instead making up fake documents (i.e. Cap.221).
In these cases, they can go to jail.
[Audience A: ] Just now, you clarified that DNA will be collected from all dogs but
not all of them will undergo DNA testing.
Yes, if the puppies look very different from
the mother, we will certainly test the DNA.
[Audience A: ] Understood. And, you said that after you test the DNA, you will issue
a selling permit for the sale, but then you said not all dogs will undergo DNA tests.
So, if you do not test all the DNA, how do you issue permit to sell all the dogs.
How do they sell all the dogs, without you testing all their DNA?
They want to sell all the dogs, right?
No...no... we will collect DNA from all dogs.
We issue certification to certify that we have
collected DNA, not that we have tested the
DNA.
[Audience A: ] ok. understood, so I would suggest you write down this very intricate
arrangement in your document so that the public will not misundertand like we do
just now.
We will write down very clearly.
[Audience A: ] yes, what I mean is, if we misunderstood your points just now,
others can just have the same misunderstanding
if you do not clearly write out the intricacies
in words.
OK we will.
[Audience: ] my understanding .... the DNA test will be ..... more targeted for those....
...more like a risk-based approach....
[Audience: ] The other thing is, who pay the cost? You have to charge the
breeders, not the taxpayers.
The government will pay the cost. ... It might be controversial, because if the
breeders pay the cost, and they end up being sued by the government, then....
Whenever, usually, when we sue, the govt will pay.
Heard your opinion.
Ok, there are limits on the minimum age of puppies for sale, i.e. 8 weeks and need
to be vaccinated by vet less than 14.
Licensees cannot sell dogs to those aged less than 18.
...we really will not visit the home for regular inspection... Because the cost...
[Audience: ] ...we also feel what the public feels.
[Audience: ] Let me put it this way. There is a message that goes with the
licensing fee, i.e. if the fee is low, it implies that this activity is encouraged,
and vice versa.
But, if you need to be practical, i.e. how many people are willing to pay for a dog
aged more than 1 year old. Now, more than 90% of sale now are in
dogs aged below 5 months.
[Audience:] Sorry, we are talking about license fees. What are you talking about?
[Audience:] We remember that when you mentioned in the last consultation
meeting you said that one-off licenses are
for people who sell real pedigrees selling for hundreds of thousand dollors.
[Audience:] I think the biggest controversy
is in Category A & B, for such a big business
The license fees in breeding in much much
lower than operating a taxi business. I would prefer to go breeding rather than
driving taxi. Even if I my breeding business
got cracked down by AFCD or you revoked
my license, I already got my money back. I already broke even in the first one or two
litters of puppies. So, it's a good business to do.
A fee of just a few thousands is really very
low entrance fee to the industry.I won't consider driving taxi. I will do breeding
instead.
Aside from the fee, breeding takes a lot of other commitments.
[Audience :] I wish to ask from the point of view of the taxpayers.
In the future, if you are going to do effective inspection, it'll take a lot of
resources. Where does the money come from? Either it is the taxpayer or the
breeders themselves. It is fair for the trade themselves to
pay a fair share of the cost to improve the stand of professional, rather than
ask the taxpayer to pay it for them. You, Mr Jai, said earlier that you will not
go visit the homes of these breeders. Did you say that?
No we won't inspect for one-off license.
Actually, we don't solely rely on inspection.
We actually have a database keeping all the trade activities of the licensees,
e.g. what puppies are sold, .....
[Audience :] Apart from your database, you
don't do any inspection right?
We do carry out inspection.
[Audience: ] But you just said you don't inspect.
We don't do inspection for one-offs only.
[Audience: ] ok, you will do sampling inspection, right?
No we don't do sample inspection. We do inspections.
[Audience: ] You need to think about, I think the frequency of inspections
should depend of the number of dogs they own,.. i.e. a sliding scale.
Also, are there maximum number of *** to the license (Category B)
[Audience: ] Category B is now supposed to replace the license for commercial
breeding. So do you require them to have business registration.
Because we now also have some big licensees who already have business
registration.So, usually they have.
[Audience:] But it is mandatory?
Err... we will ask for them to show us.
[Audience:] Is it required by the law?
This is difficult, but basically, we now will ask for it.
[Audience:] If a person wants to apply for a license, he asks you whether a
business registration is required, what will
be your answer. This is a simple question to answer.
We BASICALLY require it, for Category B, now.
[Audience:] It's a simple question.
We are considering it for Category A, to be honest.
[Audience:] Let me recap, you said that you are only considering it for both
category A and B.
No, we ask for it for Category B.
[Audience:] Is it a legal requirement?
No, it's not.
[Audience:] So, what kind of requirement?
[Audience:] Personal requirement? To be fair, if there are reasons for NOT
requiring a business registration, what are the reasons?
The biggest reason is that business registration is not under the purview of
AFCD.
[Audience:] This is a requirement.
We will consider it in the future.
We wish to respond to you ceiling issue. The breeding establishments now we
have on record only have about 70 dogs.
We don't believe there are bigger breeders
because of expensive lands in Hong Kong.
[Audience:] Law is law. You need to consider the possibility.
Ok. How many do you proposal?
[Audience:] Five.
[Audience:] Are there any control in the area experimental breeding, e.g. people
crossing different breeds for experiment to produce exotic breeds,...
Are there any direction to ban certain types or breeds which are not suitable
for the Hong Kong environment Are there any detail regulation as to what
type of care should be given to dogs who stay in the petshops for too long, e.g.
nobody buy them.
We will consider guidelines for traders to deal with dogs which cannot be sold.
[Audience:] Thank AFCD for giving this opportunity for us to give feedback.
Basically, we "139B Concern Group" (over 20 NGOs), we in principle are
very supportive of the amendment. We wish to make it a lot better.
Some members of us which to bring up some points.
[Audience:] The Audit report (2010) says that in 2009 Audit sample-checked 9 pet
shops in two streets. 2 of them were operating without license (22%)
It tells that you do not have sufficient manpower, because even when they
are on the street, you failed to spot them.
Yes, since then, we have set up a dedicated team to crack down on
internet trade, or shops disguising themselves as grooming shop.
[Audience:] How many members are there in your dedicated them
About 7 to 8 people.
[Audience:] Also, in the Audit Report, Audit sample-checked 4 streets, 15
pet grooming shops. But 10 of them were with no license, over 60%
I really doubt the effectiveness of your enforcement.
We have since then increase our rate of surprise inspection, and found that
many people are not aware that such businesses need to be licensed.
So, we are targetting also on education.
[Audience:] Since you set up the dedicated
team, how many more inspection have you recorded.
We don't have concrete numbers now, but there have been improvements.
[Audience:] Licenseing is one thing. To be frank, for example, softpading
which is a requirement, are generally not provided in pet shops. This shows you
are not doing your job in enforcement.
Enforcement is not the job of that 7 to 8 people.It's other colleagues' job.
[Audience:] So, who much more manpower
will there be?
Not yet, we are seeking the resources from CSD.
[Audience:] It's really serious, we haven't seen any petshops, e.g. in Causeway Bay
that provide soft pads for the pets, apart from very very rare cases.
Welcome all to give us such information. We will follow up.
If we seriously follow up, they will behave.
We have conveyed your concern of manpower for enforcement to
management.
[Audience:] You haven't answer my question on regulating experimental
breeding.
This is a difficult question to answer. There are in fact such bad guys all over
the world. It is difficult to write these down
in the laws. In reality, those buying pets will pay for pure breeds, so the buyers
will not be easily fooled in the long term.
[Audience:] The law should provide for such regulation.
Understood, but how do you restrict certain kinds of breeding...?
[Audience:] There should be requirement in the levels of knowledge.
We have requirement on training.
[Audience:] Who provide the training.
We are considering.
[Audience:] You said that the issues we brought up are related to
manpower resources, the the following points I'm going to raise might not
be related to resources: In the Audit exercise, the Audit
Commission reviewed 1000 inspection reports from
AFCD Out of these, 900 claimed that there were no irregularities found.
But then Audit accompanied your staff to inspect some 12 pet shops, but
found that AFCD staff did not actually look at the required licensing conditions,
they just filled in the report saying there was nothing found.
Understood. After the 2010 report, we have followed up and put in place
many measures of improvement. We have put in new additional licensing
conditions.
For example, surprise inspection, and review
by supervisors.
[Audience:] What I mean is, when the legal requirements were not as extensive
as the ones you are proposing now, you were not able to do a good job, how are
you going to do in with your proposed extensive code of practice?
Thanks for the concern.We did learn from the lesson of the audit report. In the
future, we will hopefully do better.
[Audience:] What we mean is, with the idealistic proposal, we know that its
natural for staff to be sort of laid back. For example, when you require dogs not
be put in grooming area if they are for sale.
How do you inspection staff enforce such detail effectively and seriously?
How do a frontline staff enforce this? And, how do your "supervisors" like you
go about participating in frontline inspection?
Regarding your example, we actually require the provision of DNA certification.
[Audience:] If you couldn't do it in 2010, you are probably not capable of doing it
with your new stuff.
It is really impossible to get rid of all possibility of lazy staff. It always happens.
So, in the future, we also need the monitoring of the public,
i.e all of you. We are being monitored by you.
[Audience:] We don't get paid. We warned you now. And you're telling
us to do your job?
Understood. We aim to listen to your worries. We will do better.We hope..... we
can only hope, and see.
[Audience:] Put it this way, it's actually not fair to put all blames in your frontline
staff. It is the design of the system, does it allow the staff to do a reasonably good
job? Looking at the licensing schemes you are talking about, no ceiling, how
are your staff going to do a good job. In the end, AFCD and everybody else,
suffers.
[Audience:] Apart from that, the attitude of AFCD Animal Management Centre are
of some concerns, e.g. the Audit Report said there are different checklists of
inspection across difference AMCs. Some did not fill out inspection report
at all.Some did not even bring a microchip scanner. In one instance, your staff
reported all 32 dogs in a shop were microchipped,
when in fact, Audit found one dog without microchip.So, these are all about attitude.
So, two possibilities: quality of staff. Second, the workload doesn't allow staff
to perform.
Thank you. Understood. These are, afterall, a 2010 report. We got it.
We hope to address all weaknesses......
[Audience:] Apart from hoping, you will talk more, right?
...understood, we hope to do better. After I came on board this position, they
have been doing something to improve. Hope, we will do better in the days to
come.
[Audience:] About the 18-years-old requirement (for selling pets), will there
also be requirement on the residential restriction of the buyer? For example,
public housing?
For example, if somebody living in publci housing come to us for a dog license,
AFCD will inform the Housing Authority.
[Audience:] Do you require the identity of the buyers to be recorded?
This involves privacy, so it's difficult.
[Audience:] There should be consistency in government policies. You should
address the technical difficulty to make sure it works......In the end, the animal
suffers.You need to seriously consider it.
[Audience:] Lots of people are keeping pets
secretly; they cannot adopt pets from NGOs
so they end up buying pets.
Yes yes ok we got it.
[Audience:] ...I saw that you still have 3 litters in 2 years are still there... Really it
Should be 1 litter per year, maximum. Also the Cat.B is quite small ...
they got to let them socialize, socialization is a very important thing
[Audience:] This time some of the things have
changed, refer back to the previous question
regarding the size of the cage, Cat.B was indicating
that the bottom of the cage cannot exceed 1.8m; this time seems different
than last time, what does it means? Does it mean it is more flexible now?
Maybe last time was referring to pet shop, pet shop used to allow 2 levels of cages,
but we don't want the cages to be too tall coz the person pick up the dog
might fall down from the cage. But for the breeders,
we won't allow them pile up the cages. Therefore, the bottom of the cage will
have no limits and the cage will not be
too tall and pile up.
[Audience:] so, not allow to pile up cages.
Yes, not allow.
[Audience:] how about a shelf on top of another?
What do you mean?
[Audience:] a layer on top of another
No, cannot be 2 layers.
[Audience:] so 3 layers ok?
No, no, cannot. Cannot exist. So you mean a shelf and a cage, and
it cannot be too tall. The dog should be able to jump down and
not hurt itself.
[Audience:] so a dog cannot be on top of another dog?
Yes correct.
[Audience:] We have talked so long. So License A n License B, you won't
consider combining them together?
Um um.
[Audience:] Why? You said you will consider!
Let Gloria talks first.
[Audience:] If not consider, these numbers
will rise or not? For example: a small dog is 100 ...
License B ... I think your English is not accurate ... should be written as can be
shared at same time, right? I don't know how you would write it?
The wordings you use.
Will be in more details. This is just a brief one, for you guys to
know our principle.
[Audience:] will it raise to, say small dog not only 100 square feet but to
150 square feet; coz each small dog 100 if 4 dogs = 400
square feet, we are talking about not cut them off but keep the
standard higher, so the business will be retired (fade out)
one day. I know I cannot clear cut them, but say if they comply the requirements,
they can do it. If you say 100 for small dog,
lots of people seem to be able to do it.
Um um. Umm umm.
[Audience:] Can we add some??
Ha ha ha ha.
[Audience:] most HK people would have a home around 400-500 square feet.
Say 4 dogs stay in one home seems to be too crowded.
[Audience:] not to mention there are human in that home too.
[Audience:] with dogs n human the space is really very small.
[Audience:] can we think about this area?
[Audience:] or we count extra space for human being, then that's ok.
Or isolate the extra space for human being
and each dog. Or per head. Be more specific.
This is also the reason we need this public
consultation. Need to listen to your opinions.
[Audience:] you still didn't answer me is it suitable for Hong Kong?
Ha ha ha ha.
Hey Dora, thank you.
[Audience:] have you finished that topic?
Ha ha ya, you can start yours.
[Audience:] I don't know what they are talking about anyway.
Ha ha ha ha ha.
[Audience:] My point is ... dogs used for breeding shall be arranged for re-homing
or neutering when they are retired. To me, that is kind of like skipping the
mission to the breeders. Okay, we finished with you now,
we can dump you, and you can be re-home or whatever.
I really feel there should be something said
in the law that these breeders of taken to these law,
they have their best of these years and then
they just dumped them. ... A lot of these problems could be doubt
with, with setting out in the law in the first place
for example these breeder dogs should be having, by law, a health check.
A lot of the problems they have when they dumped, could have been avoiding?
And also, like going in having them checked ...
it takes a troll of their lives, for their health,
and they just have been bred. So, they are working dogs that they
should be, by law, taken to the vet to have checked that
they are healthy and that they can breed. Why just started it from the source.
And also, a lot of these dogs being bred have character flaws that have not
been addressed. And also their health,
these dogs all got these ... I am sure you are a vet you know exactly
what that is. And we going to breed, why don't we breed healthy dogs
and adoptable dogs, not we got now.
Um um.
[Audience:] Actually I’ve got these paper work I’ve submitted to Lego in 2009, we
believe these points that these dogs have a
life, by law, and that they are desex and that
female dogs are only allow to have 2 fetus,
by law, as a woman does, a human woman,
and there is a reason for that is risk to her health. So you know,
why not allow the dogs to have a life, you know. And the male dogs as well.
They have great risk of *** and cats as well. They should have a life.
I've got first handed experience, here is the character, here is my dog,
wow, beautiful, wow how handsome, super,
okay. I've adopted him from a charity,
they came to me as a 1 year old, his both knee is badly out, it have to
be done right away and it all came from bad breeding.
Bad breeding. Oh isn't he lovely, isn't he gorgeous.
If anyone wants to touch him or stroke him,
you have to wear these gloves, okay. Bad character, and you cannot do
anything about it, it is all from inbred.
That is what I’ve to do and I’ve it for 5 yrs and why not address these
problems here and now.
I take your point as I am a vet too. Yes we are going to restraint some of
these points. Just want to clarify the point on
retirement, so are you suggesting that they need to
be kept by the breeder? Not re-home? And or
...
[Audience:] It should be some commitment.
You know you tend these things on and now you finished with it and now you
just dumped it out. They dumped it out in this horridness
condition, and umm honestly that is a different case I have another dog at home
but is a breeder dog and she is here, she is blind, she is in a, in a real mess,
she has been bred and she is 10 years old now.
There are different cases I am talking about,
but they are both my dogs.
We will consider that and hopefully with this
new law and there will be some improvement of changes,
to help people to tend to dogs ... dogs ... and umm ...
[Audience:] I've mentioned to put in steps, why not have these animals checked by
law that they are healthy to breed and get certificates from the SPCA.
I mean why not has SPCA do it, so you can't have these back street vets
do any fake certificates. I mean they are wide spread that
they got clinics all over Hong Kong, on the islands, and they have been here
88 years (90 years actually) you know, I can't see that they going to trick anyone,
so why have the animal go to one of the SPCA vet clinic and
get a certificate that they can be bred, that they are healthy dog and
they can be bred. Let's breed healthy animals,
you know. Because that's they get dumped,
the reason the animal get dumped. And also people get animals from pet
shops, and they wanted those pedigrees,
but when they’re not their pedigree at all, they dumped the animals because they
don’t want those pedigrees. You know why people dump animals?
It’s because they’re sick and they need heavy expensive surgery,
Hex, he was dumped, he was such a fantastic pedigree group,
he was dumped because he needed very expensive operations.
$12000 to have his legs done, the first thing the vets have done,
and that’s all from bad breeding.
Thanks. Is there any comments and suggestions?
[Audience] did you guys actually know how many kennels in HK and
did you talk to them regarding this issue?
About what?
[Audience] Regarding Cap.139B…
Of course.
[Audience] Government buying seats, and let people in ngos like us …
they are earning money and we …
[Audience] I bet you guys have actually did the research,
to be honest you got to block this loophole.
I bet you have asked the traders lots of questions too, normally,
what you see is different than what reality actually is.
You should have known the situation for the dogs, especially when they have
to close their place down, they tell you they will close their
business, but the real story behind is poodle
is no longer in fashion, just like the fashion trend …
it actually means did you guys compare the situation between what
you heard from the traders and what you heard from NGOs?
We have tried to understand, as you have said, they said
they will dump the dogs but usually at our kennels.
[Audience] I’ve seen it with my very eyes, over 10 poodles and 10 bull dogs, and
a few suffocated inside the car, how sad can that be
Understand.
[Audience] why during the inspection process,
there are lot s of breaking the rules in the business,
why you guys still have no warning or prosecution?
[Audience] Your department has nothing to
verify these problems, but these are all actually happening.
IF the license cannot provide prevention, the point of licensing should be:
If you cannot do all these, you should not apply for the license
and now, you can apply license if you can do all of the above.
This would be a wrong direction, is it?
Let me answer your question first, you were quoting the report from 2010,
we will still answer the same question like we just did earlier.
We have revised our procedures, in coming days,
especially the serious prosecution you have mentioned might
involve in any benefit, we thank you for your concern, we are more concern than
you guys are, these are ICAC case, very serious case.
Actually wanted to add, ICAC have came over and checked us, they have
came to check on this area and absolutely
sure there is no benefit involved.
We are surely more concern than you.
[Audience] then how ICA investigates?
ICAC gave us some guidelines.
They often assess our working procedure.
[Audience] did they arrest anyone?
No, no they just checked on our procedure,
not case by case. If it is a case, it is already
published on newspaper and being prosecuted.
They were looking at taking rounds in pet shops, prosecution,
checked if anything in between, any path that lead to any transfer of benefit
to our staffs, all these things
[Audience] So it involves in transfer of benefit?
No, they just checked procedures.
[Audience] I am just curious, ICAC only check procedures,those we have just
read, all happens in between, say some were
not being prosecuted, and some said the inspection list is different,
every pet shop is different, maybe there is really
something happens in between.
Ya,so if needed, they will go into more details for investigation, if they have
proof, ICAC will not let us go.
[Audience] We have all these suggestions just to avoid it happens one day.
We know, understand, and understand your worries and where these came from.
[Audience] We are working partners, even though sometimes we over-react, but
on the animal stand point, we might be a little over it.
Understand. Allow us some time, we will work on it. Ha.
[Audience] Actually this round our suggestion is very simple, how many
license are there now, we got Lic. A and B,
instead of just one license; why you guys want so many
different licenses? Where are the reasons?
Reasons …
[Audience] If you really have reasons, maybe we will be ok with it.
We are talking about, those keeping at home, those breeders, is actually out of
our control, the law doesn’t allow us to control them. We also understand,
they are keeping just like that, we cannot enforce it,
we cannot do anything at all. Our original idea to set up this regulation,
is hoping to bring them into our boundary of control ,let them fits our requirement,
allow us have the authority, to control and prosecute those
who have license if they abuse the animals,
we can take off their license. We actually already have Lic.B,
we just want a further step to control, in order for animal welfare or for
code of practice for our staffs, and we just want to upgrade our standard.
These are what we wish for. We will also consider individuals,
just like Saioyang brings up pure breeds, if they immigrant, and
wanted to sell the dog, in this we also consider and hoping to control them
as one off, single sale.
[Audience] You didn’t answer David, David asked why you have to separate the
license type.
[Audience] Answered. He said from individual point of view, not from animal
point of view, actually nothing you guys can do now. They are already here,
you have to know they problems are already there, not good enough,
they are abusing the animals and yet you guys are trying to accommodate
then, let them be legalized.
[Audience] You want to accommodate them, can also use one license to
accommodate all of them, why need to separate different licenses?
The answer is to be able to facilitate them easier to manage.
Because they are 2 different 2 different sizes.
[Audience] So it is facilitating.
No, no, if we are really like what Mark said,
one thing, if you can do then do it, if not, then sorry don’t do it.
(The building cut electricity at 20:00 shape)
one condition:yes , you want a license, no cannot give it to you, no, we will not
give you this license, then at the end we will go back to step 1
and becomes exactly like today, doing it underground.
[Audience] But underground we can prosecute them, like those who sell
cigarettes.
Understand, but if we can prosecute them, meaning we …
[Audience] Why can we arrest those who sell illegal cigarettes but not illegal
breeders ?
Caught all illegal cigarettes selling? Illegal
selling cigarette are still everywhere. The thing is we really make it tough for
ourselves …
[Audience roar]
[Audience] We really don’t want to see you in such hardship.
[Audience] I want to say, what you wish to control will be control,
but the rules are too loose, beside those you want to control,
I am afraid you might as well attract those who wants to get into
the business yet, just like what was said earlier:
I used to drive a can, drive a taxi, but why don’t I started to be a freed,
2 dogs can earn more, there will be situations like this for sure.
You sure attract more of this kind.
We have actually consider the numbers, I do agree we might attract those
as you mentioned into the business, I cannot say it is impossible.
But you guys have keep dogs too, you guys should know,
use keeping dogs to get a license and make a living, really … be quick,
times almost up … last question goes to Gloria.
[ [Audience] legislation,or law reform
seems to be very important logically. Just now you guys said
those breeders already exist, either home or farm land, already existing,
the problem is you don’t know where they are, so you set the law
in order to control them, this is your logic; but is this logic connect to
what I am going to say below, just like biting someone up is a crime
and difficult to chase on the street, so I beat up Mark, no proof, gone.
So it is SO difficult to catch, I make up a law and easier to control,
so in the future we can catch and prosecute the people biting up each
other. Beside understand, what do you think of
my logic?
Sorry, this logic is wrong.
[Audience] Conference and confirmation have been held so many times,
where is the timeline? What will follows? What we need to do?
Still accept our comments?
We only in this consultation...
[Audience] How long will your amendment,
Cap 139B, be reviewed? You have calculated your budget,
government approval it yet? Last time it held was in 2010? Last time
let go of hobby breeder? Best to set a timeline, might fail.
We will apply for resources, do what we needed to be resourced,
also will noted with your comments or if you guys are interested, wanted to
add anything, we will hand this to legislative board, and see
what the result will be. You guys have councils, industry,
for sure will also set up meetings like this, you can find your representative
to talk with us.
[Audience] hand in to Legco in April.
Bring to legislation is a beginning, we won’t know how long the councils
take.
[Audience] They won’t know anything, you need a doctor to raise his hands for
you.
Gloria don’t worry about it, all rely on all your comments,
your related councils.
[Audience] We won’t have enough heads.
You got to trust your legislative councils.
[Audience] Our legislative councils are not enough, don’t throw the ball to us.
Not really.
[Audience] Your days in the future will not be easy, you guys are digging
a hole for yourselves to step in.
Thank you.
[Audience] Actually all NGOs are sharing your burdens, if you go down,
they have to clean up your mess too. Those who support you will go down
with you and we really don’t want to see that.
We don’t want to see that neither.
[Audience] We really are not picking on you
guys, all is for good will.
[Audience] What we said today, will pass on to Ko Wing Man?
Yes we are consultation, we will write him a report,
we will set a timeline for our review, won’t just say and walk out.
Nowadays government won’t do that.
[Audience] the lady said earlier, will you guys do a health check with
the female dogs before let them breed? 2nd, I am so concern when
will it be the cat’s turn? Actually you have said cats will do too,
cats are more than dogs you know, nowadays the pet shops have same
numbers of cats as much as dogs too. Every time we asked,
you never give us a timeline.
As for cats, the answer will be same as last time, it will be next round.
[Audience] Meaning when? Any deadline? We have talked about cats for ages.
We are as urge as you guys are, .but we want to make sure the dogs go
first.
[Audience] Meaning when? At least give us a time limit,
we have talked about cats for a very long time.
Why I am so eagerly because lots of problem cats appeared
Understand, if we success at this stage, ok, then next will be the cats and others.
[Audience] You still didn’t answer my question.
I will talk to you in a bit later.
[Audience] Exactly how your conference, as it’s supposed to reality,
how are you going to force it? Can you show this to any of the breeders,
if you are actually coming for a proposal for the point of view of
the animals’ welfare, and not the breeders
Sorry you didn’t understand the question just now. But that’s what they were
discussing just now, like coming to the point for the animals.
I think for the enforcement, we are still considering trying to enforce
it. We need manpower to enforce these and
legislation
[Audience] You know its money. If you don’t have the manpower,
it’s nothing to talk. Don’t have to address everything.
[Audience 2] The law replaces the foundation, rather than, yeah,
because how are you going to reinforce it, it’s very difficult to get the people to
follow. People know their rights.
You have to come up to the door now you can’t come in.
You have to get a paperwork in the court…
So we know, as far as you set something up
, people are so sneaky now, they thought they would cover it up,
that’s the thing, that’s why we were saying why don’t use the vets do to the
health check in the SPCA. We know they are going to get their back
street vets their friends to sign a certificate so, you know,
put things on a table that’s workable. So you don’t have to have the manpower,
you share your work with the SPCA, then do the health certificates, they check
the animals, you can check their character as well.
This dog, when I take him to the vet, I need metal gloves and
I can to with that is to have rabies vaccination as it is required by
law… and that’s all we can have to
get dump with that dog. So at least if this dog is checked you will
have an idea of what it parents are like. Because if the parents are like that,
you cannot get a puppy like that, and you will get it dumped,
and this stories and be thousands in H, so that’s why I think we have put
some really good ideas right from 2009, we have put a lot of workable ideas to
LEGCO and we seen those as well. So why don’t you act upon
those good solid ideas? There’s nothing in there,
absolutely nothing except all for the breeders,
the DNA testing, the DNA testing is $500, why should the taxpayers pay it,
why not the breeders? They are the ones that bring
these animals in this world, which is already over-populated,
you go to the shelters! So, get to the source and make these
measures workable. So you don’t have the manpower and
the breeders know that!
I just have a photo; I just have the capture,
from my civil servant, their rescuing duty in the public,
in the reality. This is the housing estate, of this far there’s too many officials
appointed by the Housing Authority, they are supposed to manage this area,
and on the other side they are hawkers. These hawkers, they are inside the area,
which they are not supposed to be. These people are supposed to prosecute
the hawkers, or to stop them. But what they are doing? They stand
there, and this is all we have for
the front line civil servants, we have no control what they do.
They deliver their service to the tax payers,
to the public! And that’s why setting a law to banish, to prevent,
is the duty they require to personal determination to duty. They are important.
I encore to all the animal angel party: the law is not preventing,
not functioning, first of all,
[Audience 2] So far we have no preventing
the cruelty and no control how those animals’ breeders coming in and
going out, that’s how I expect the law to banish and to uphold the principle.
I don’t see this happening yet.
[Audience] when you write the law shouldn’t have written like this,
when you write it, will you show us? We will bring it to Legco in April.
[Audience] You ask Department of Justice to do it.
We will work with them.
[Audience] Because they … I am worry about the language issue.
[Audience] Deadline is mid-April?
No, the battle starts in mid-April at Legco.
Thank you, thanks for coming.