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>> TRAYVON MARTIN, AN UNARMED 17-YEAR-OLD
AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALE, WAS FATALLY SHOT BY GEORGE
ZIMMERMAN, A THEN 28-YEAR-OLD MALE OF HISPANIC
DESCENT IN FLORIDA IN FEBRUARY OF 2012.
NOW, NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH VOLUNTEER ZIMMERMAN'S CLAIM
OF SELF-DEFENSE WAS SUPPORTED BY A JURY WHEN
THEY ACQUITTED HIM OF 2nd DEGREE *** AND
MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES ON JULY 13th OF THIS YEAR.
THE CASE HAS SPARKED DEBATE OVER RACIAL PROFILING, AND
THE VERDICT HAS SET OFF PROTEST MARCHES NATIONWIDE,
INCLUDING HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.
JOINING US ON THE LINE OPINION PANEL TO TALK ABOUT
THIS, AND OTHER TOPICS AS WELL, ANTOINETTE
SEDILLO-LOPEZ, UNM LAW PROFESSOR.
NICE TO SEE YOU HERE AGAIN, AS ALWAYS.
A FAMILIAR FACE FROM THE GARRITY GROUP PUBLIC
RELATIONS, TOM GARRITY TAKES A SEAT FOR US.
DR. HAROLD BAILEY, PRESIDENT OF THE ALBUQUERQUE CHAPTER
OF THE NAACP, AND FORMER. EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE
NEW MEXICO OFFICE OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN AFFAIRS IS
HERE. DOC, GREAT TO HAVE YOU
FINALLY BACK ON. IT'S BEEN FIVE YEARS; I'M
EMBARRASSED. AND LAST, BUT NOT LEAST, THE
CEO OF THE NEW MEXICO GREEN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, LAURA
SANCHEZ, OUR REGULAR, IS HERE.
NOW, ANTOINETTE -- AND I APPRECIATE EVERYONE COMING
TOGETHER TO TALK ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE IT WOULD SEEM FOR A
LOT OF AMERICA THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER.
BUT FOR US HERE AT NEW MEXICO PBS, IT'S IMPORTANT
FOR US TO KEEP THIS KIND OF DIALOGUE GOING, AND GET
UNDERNEATH SOME OF THE RHETORIC.
ANTOINETTE, LET ME START WITH YOU.
NOW THAT WE'VE HAD A COUPLE WEEKS OF REFLECTION, I'M
CURIOUS TO FIND OUT, MAYBE FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP, HAVE
YOUR FEELINGS CHANGED MARKEDLY SINCE YOUR INITIAL
REACTION TO THE VERDICT? IF SO, HOW, AND WHAT MIGHT HAVE
BEEN THE CHANGE? >> WELL, I WAS SHOCKED.
SORT OF LIKE EVERYONE, I WAS SORT OF SHOCKED.
BUT I'VE COME TO REFLECT ON IT, AND NOW IT'S
INTERESTING. I'M WORRIED, AND THE REASON
I'M WORRIED IS BECAUSE WHEN THE COMMUNITY DOESN'T AGREE
WITH WHAT THE LEGAL SYSTEM DOES, SOMETIMES THAT PUTS
THE LEGAL SYSTEM ON TRIAL. NOT THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE ON
TRIAL, BUT SOMETIMES PEOPLE CAN OVERREACT.
AND SO I'M EXCITED THAT WE'RE HAVING THIS DEBATE,
BECAUSE I THINK WE NEED TO CONTINUE HAVING THE DEBATE.
AND WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT, OKAY, WHAT ARE ALL THE
THINGS THAT WE NEED TO EXAMINE IN THIS CASE.
AND I THINK IT'S -- YOU KNOW, NOW AS I'VE REFLECTED,
I'VE REALIZED WE'RE SUCH A FEARFUL SOCIETY, AND I THINK
THAT THIS CASE REALLY DREW OUT PEOPLE'S FEARS.
BUT I'M GLAD THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT.
SO OBVIOUSLY, YES, MY FEELINGS DEEPENED, THEY'VE
CHANGED, AND I THINK IT IS TIME TO BE REAL REFLECTIVE
OF THE THINGS, ABOUT THE THINGS THAT WENT WRONG, AND
HOW TO FIX THEM. >> SURE.
APPRECIATE YOU SHARING THAT, BUT I'M ALSO CURIOUS, WHILE
I'VE GOT YOU HERE, WHAT'S BEEN THE TENOR OF STUDENTS
AT UNM? I'M VERY CURIOUS ON A
GENERATIONAL BASIS WHAT YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN GLEANING
FROM SOME OF THE STUDENTS AT UNM LAW, AND THEIR REACTION
TO THIS VERDICT. >> THEY'RE SPLIT, AS WELL.
>> JUST LIKE SOCIETY? >> THAT'S WHAT I'M
GATHERING. >> INTERESTING.
>> AND I'VE BEEN TRYING TO FOCUS THEM ON THE LEGAL
SYSTEM. LET'S THINK ABOUT WHAT THIS
MEANS TO THE LEGAL SYSTEM. >> I WANT TO COME BACK TO
THAT. THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT
THERE. DOCTOR, REALLY GOOD TO SEE
YOU. >> THANK YOU, THANK YOU.
GOOD TO BE HERE. >> THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
JUSTICE AND THE LEGAL OUTCOME, MEANING -- AND
ANTOINETTE WILL COME BACK TO THIS -- THE SYSTEM, OF
COURSE, FUNCTIONING IN ITS CAPACITY TO COME UP WITH A
LEGAL OUTCOME, BUT FOR A LOT OF FOLKS THAT DOES NOT
CONFORM TO WHAT THEY MIGHT THINK AS JUSTICE.
WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN? >> THE LEGAL OUTCOME, I
DISAGREED WITH IT. I THINK THERE'S A MORAL
ISSUE. I THINK IT'S A RACE ISSUE.
I THINK THE VERDICT SENT A CHILLING EFFECT TO BLACK
AMERICANS THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR YOUNG BLACK MALES AND
YOUNG BLACK MEN, IT'S GOING TO BE KIND OF TOUGH.
SO I THINK THAT IN NEW MEXICO AND AMERICA, THAT
MORAL FIBER, THAT MORAL CHARACTER THAT WE HAVE IS
BEING TESTED. I TRULY DISAGREE WITH THAT
VERDICT. >> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S
INHERENT IN SOME OF YOUR APPROACH THAT YOU'VE
DISCUSSED WITH US HERE AT NEW MEXICO PBS, AND OTHERS,
IS THAT THIS IS ACTUALLY, IN FACT, SOMEWHAT OF A LOCAL
ISSUE, AS WELL, THAT A LOT OF FOLKS DON'T KNOW IN
GREATER NEW MEXICO, OR IN ALBUQUERQUE, WE HAVE SIMILAR
ISSUES GOING ON AS TRAYVON MARTIN AND GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.
YOU'VE BEEN ON THE FOREFRONT OF THAT.
>> RIGHT, WE HAVE ANOTHER ISSUE, JONATHAN MITCHELL,
WHO WAS KILLED BY, LET'S JUST SAY A COMMUNITY PERSON.
HAD A GUN CARRYING PERMIT. WE FIGURE THIS PERSON TOOK A
FEW MORE STEPS, JUST LIKE MR. ZIMMERMAN.
HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE.
IT WAS A PREVENTABLE SITUATION.
HE SHOULD HAVE LET LAW ENFORCEMENT DO THEIR JOB,
AND NOW WE HAVE ANOTHER YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICAN WAR
VETERAN KILLED. SO HE IS WAITING FOR A
DETERMINATION FROM THE D.A.'S OFFICE.
>> THAT WAS OUT IN VENTANA RANCH, OUT ON THE WEST SIDE
OF OUR CITY, AND SOMEWHAT SIMILAR, AS A MATTER OF
FACT. LAURA, GOOD TO SEE YOU, TOO.
NOT TO PUT THE STONES TO OUR LAWYERS HERE AT THE TABLE,
BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT VERDICTS AND OUTCOMES AND
JUSTICE. HOW DID YOU SEE THIS, WITH
SOME REFLECTION, NOW THAT YOU'VE HAD A COUPLE OF
WEEKS? >> I ALSO WAS SHOCKED.
IT DEFINITELY WAS, I THINK, UPSETTING TO SEE THAT
OUTCOME. BY NOT HAVING -- I DIDN'T
FOLLOW ALL THE TESTIMONY AS CLOSELY AS A LOT OF PEOPLE
HAD. THE LEGAL ANALYSTS SEEMED TO
THINK THAT THERE WAS SOME ISSUE WITH ENOUGH EVIDENCE
TO MAKE THE CASE ON THE PROSECUTION SIDE.
BUT JUST FROM, YOU KNOW, THE REACTION THAT I'VE SEEN -- I
HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE IN D.C. LAST WEEK, ACTUALLY, SO
IT WAS VERY INTERESTING TO BE THERE THE WEEK AFTER THE
DECISION AND TO LISTEN IN ON SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS IN
THE SUBWAY AND ON THE STREET CORNERS, AND PEOPLE WERE
STILL PRETTY ANGRY. I MEAN, THEY WERE VERY
UPSET. THERE WERE A LOT OF COMMENTS
ABOUT, OH, I WANT TO GO ON VACATION, BUT NOT FLORIDA.
YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO BOYCOTT FLORIDA, KIND OF
THING. >> RIGHT.
>> I THINK IT DOES HIGHLIGHT SORT OF WHAT THE
ISSUE IS WITH OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM, AS HAS ALREADY BEEN
DISCUSSED, THAT THERE IS THAT ALMOST DISCONNECT, IT
FEELS LIKE, BETWEEN WHAT YOU INHERENTLY FEEL IS RIGHT, OR
ETHICAL, OR MORAL, AND WHAT THE ACTUAL LEGAL OUTCOME IS
WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF OUR JUDICIAL SYSTEM.
SO I THINK THAT IT'S ONE OF THOSE TIMES WHEN YOU FEEL
LIKE SOMETHING IS WRONG, AND I THINK IT ALL GOES BACK TO
THE ACTIONS THAT LED TO MR. ZIMMERMAN BEING IN THAT
SITUATION. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT A
LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CALLING FOR, A RE-EXAMINATION ACROSS
THE COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, ON THE STAND YOUR GROUND LAWS,
BUT ALSO JUST ON TAKING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR
THE COMMUNITY, AND NOT JUST SEEING EVERYBODY WHO IS
DIFFERENT FROM YOU AS A PREDATOR OF SOME SORT.
SO I THINK THAT'S A LOT OF WHAT IS STILL HAPPENING.
YOU KNOW, IN REFLECTION, I THINK I'M NOT QUITE AS
ANGRY, PERHAPS, BUT I'M CERTAINLY STILL CONCERNED
ABOUT THE ISSUES. >> ON THE LEGAL SIDE OF IT,
THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERN, LAURA -- I HEARD AL SHARPTON
SAY THIS, THAT THIS IS NOW LEGAL PRECEDENT FOR THIS TO
HAPPEN AGAIN, THAT THIS WOULD GIVE COMFORT TO THOSE
WHO WANT TO CARRY ARMS AND BE A NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH,
THAT LITTLE SLIGHT PERCENTAGE OF, OKAY.
IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS THING FOR OUR COUNTRY.
WOULD YOU READ THAT FAR INTO IT?
>> I DON'T THINK -- I THINK THAT'S A STRETCH.
I THINK IT WOULD BE HARD TO SEE THIS AS PRECEDENCE.
I THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT AWARE OF THE WAY THE LEGAL
SYSTEM WORKS, PERHAPS, WOULD SEE IT AS LIKE SOME SORT OF
A CONDONING OF THOSE KINDS OF ACTIONS.
BUT UNLESS IT WAS THE SAME FACT PATTERN IN THE SAME
STATE WHERE THIS LAW APPLIES, YOU KNOW, THE
CHANCES OF IT COMING OUT EXACTLY THE SAME, I DON'T
NECESSARILY THINK IT'S GOING TO, THAT THAT WOULD HAPPEN.
BUT, FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT AWARE OF IT AND MAY FEEL
MORE EMPOWERED TO CARRY A WEAPON AND TAKE MATTERS INTO
THEIR OWN HANDS, RATHER THAN LISTEN TO WHAT A POLICE
OFFICER AND LAW ENFORCEMENT IS TELLING YOU TO DO, TO
STAY OUT OF A SITUATION, I THINK MAYBE FOR PEOPLE WHO
ARE ALREADY GOING TO BE INCLINED TO TAKE THAT STEP,
MAYBE THEY WILL FEEL EMBOLDENED TO DO SO EVEN
MORE, AND THAT'S A DANGER. I THINK THAT'S AN EDUCATION
ISSUE, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE TO, AS A
SOCIETY, FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THOSE
ATTITUDES. >> THAT'S RIGHT.
TOM, THE PRESIDENT WEIGHED IN.
HE HAD HIS OWN THOUGHTS. HE COULD HAVE BEEN TRAYVON
MARTIN IN HIS YOUNG AGE. HE SPOKE ABOUT THAT.
AND THEN A YEAR AND SOME BACK WHEN THIS HAPPENED, HE
ALSO MENTIONED TRAYVON IN A CLOSE PERSONAL WAY, AS WELL.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOU WHEN YOU HEAR THE PRESIDENT
WEIGH IN ON THIS? DOES IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN
HOW YOU REFLECTED ON THE SITUATION, OR DID IT CHANGE
YOUR POINT OF VIEW AT ALL? >> MY INTEREST IN THE CASE
WAS REALLY MORE IN THE REACTION, AS OPPOSED TO --
YOU KNOW, WE HAD THE TRIAL ON AT THE OFFICE, KIND OF
MONITORED IT OFF AND ON, BUT THE REACTION WAS REALLY KIND
OF WHAT WE TOOK AT A LOOK AT.
AND WHEN WE LOOKED AT THE REACTION, WHEN THE PRESIDENT
WEIGHED IN, WHEN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WEIGHED IN,
IT'S KIND OF LIKE THERE'S NOBODY ELSE LEFT TO WEIGH
IN, EXCEPT FOR THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES, BECAUSE YOU
HAVE TWO OF THE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT
GIVING AN OPINION. SO FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, IT
GIVES, I THINK, AMERICANS COMFORT TO KNOW THAT THIS
VERDICT WAS, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THEY AGREE WITH IT
OR DISAGREE WITH IT, WHETHER THEY'RE SHOCKED OR NOT
SURPRISED, THAT IT IS BEING ADDRESSED AT ALL LEVELS OF
GOVERNMENT. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE EVEN
HAD ELECTED OFFICIALS IN NEW MEXICO RESPONDING TO IT, AS
WELL. >> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> WHEN WE DRAW IT IN A LITTLE BIT CLOSER TO NEW
MEXICO, REALLY I THINK IT COMES INTO MORE OF, HOW DO
PEOPLE TRUST THE COURT SYSTEM, THE COURT AND
JUSTICE SYSTEM, BECAUSE REALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT --
ANOTHER VICTIM OF THIS, YOU KNOW, PARTICULAR CASE IS
THAT YOU LOOK AT THE VICTIM OF THE COURT SYSTEM.
DO PEOPLE TRUST IT? WHAT IS THEIR PERCEPTION OF
IT? AND JUST FROM SOME OF OUR
OWN INTERNAL SURVEYS, WE KNOW THAT ABOUT 31% OF NEW
MEXICO RESIDENTS DO NOT HAVE GOOD FAVORABILITY OF THE
COURT AND JUSTICE SYSTEM, WHEREAS ONLY 30% DO.
SO, YOU KNOW, NEITHER ONE IS OVER THAT 50% MARK, NEITHER
ONE IS REALLY -- YOU KNOW, SO IT'S A LUKEWARM KIND OF
DEAL. AND WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE IN
ALBUQUERQUE AND THE SOUTHWESTERN PART OF THE
STATE TEND TO HAVE A HIGHER UNFAVORABILITY RATING WITH
REGARDS TO THE SYSTEM. SO I THINK THE OPPORTUNITY
IS REALLY NOW IN THE COURT'S HANDS TO SAY, HOW ARE WE
GOING TO SAY THAT EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE?
HERE'S HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS, HERE'S HOW YOU CAN MAKE SURE
THAT YOU'RE REPRESENTED FAIRLY.
>> DOC, LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION ON THAT POINT.
I KNOW YOU HAVE A POINT ON THAT, TOO.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE HEARD, THE PROBLEMATIC ISSUE
FOR A LOT OF FOLKS, IS TRAYVON MARTIN DID NOT GET
JUDGED BY A JURY OF HIS PEERS, AND PEERS IN COURT.
NONE OF THOSE WOMEN WERE HIS PEERS.
THEY COULDN'T CONNECT TO THE SITUATION.
IS THAT FAIR, IN YOUR VIEW? IS THAT A FAIR WAY TO MEET
OUT JUSTICE WHEN YOUR PEERS ARE NOT ACTUALLY CONSIDERING
SOMETHING? >> A LOT OF TIMES, THE
COURT SYSTEM, YOU KNOW, PROSECUTES THE INNOCENT AND
LETS THE GUILTY GO. SO THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A
BLACK PERSON ON THERE. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A BLACK
MALE ON THERE. BUT IN REGARDS TO THE COURT
SYSTEM, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM HAS NOT ALWAYS BEEN, YOU
KNOW, FRIENDLY TO AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN
AMERICA. FOR EXAMPLE, HERE IN NEW
MEXICO, WE REPRESENT 2%, 2.5%, AND IN OUR CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM WE MAKE UP OVER 10%.
ON A NATIONAL LEVEL, WE MAKE UP OVER 45% OF THE 2.3
MILLION PRISONERS. SO SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH
THIS SYSTEM. WHEN BLACK PEOPLE WERE
BROUGHT TO THIS COUNTRY, AMERICA WAS NOT DESIGNED TO
MEET OUR NEEDS. WE WERE BROUGHT HERE TO
ESTABLISH A FREE LABOR FORCE.
SO WHEN YOU MULTIPLY THAT ATTITUDE, THAT NEGATIVE
ATTITUDE DIRECTED AGAINST A PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE,
AND THEN YOU HAVE A CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, THERE'S
GOING TO BE A CONFLICT. SO WE DO HAVE TO KIND OF
RE-ANALYZE OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.
>> INTERESTING. I WANT TO FINISH UP WITH
YOU, ANTOINETTE. I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE
QUESTION ABOUT HOW JURIES FUNCTION, ALL THAT KIND OF
THING. WHENEVER THERE'S A BIG
CASE -- O.J. WAS THE SAME -- YEAH, WE'VE GOT TO REDO THE
JURY SYSTEM, IT DOESN'T WORK, IT'S BROKE, OR
WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE. YOUR SENSE OF THE JURY
SYSTEM HERE. >> THERE WERE ONLY SIX
JURORS IN THAT CASE, AND SO IT WAS A SMALLER OPPORTUNITY
FOR HIM TO GET A JURY OF HIS PEERS.
AND IT ONLY TAKES ONE JUROR TO RAISE THE QUESTIONS AND
SORT OF EDUCATE THE REST OF THE JURORS.
SO I THINK THAT IT WAS A SMALL JURY WAS PROBLEMATIC.
I THINK THAT THERE WERE NO AFRICAN-AMERICANS ON IT WAS
PROBLEMATIC. I THINK THE PROCESS OF
SELECTING JURORS IS PROBLEMATIC, BECAUSE MOST OF
THE PROCESSES TEND TO EXCLUDE SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS
OF FOLKS OF COLOR. SO I THINK THAT IT IS AN
OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT OUR SYSTEM AND SEE WHAT'S WRONG
WITH IT, HOW DOES OUR SYSTEM WORK THAT PERPETUATES THE
SENSE OF RACISM, AND HOW CAN WE GET RID OF IT.
>> LAURA, LET'S FINISH UP WITH YOU.
DO YOU HAVE A THOUGHT ON THAT?
>> WELL, I DO, AND JUST HAVING -- OBVIOUSLY I'M AN
ATTORNEY, ALSO. IT'S INTERESTING, THE ISSUE
ABOUT THE PEERS ON THE JURY, BECAUSE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE
A JURY MADE UP OF PEERS OF A DEFENDANT, AND I THINK THIS
HIGHLIGHTS THE ISSUE OF VICTIM'S RIGHTS, AND THE
FACT THAT WHEN SOMETHING IS -- OBVIOUSLY RACE IS AN
ISSUE, AND WHEN SOMETHING IS AS TRAGIC AS THIS, IT SHOULD
BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION IN THE JURY SELECTION, AS
WELL. BUT I ALSO WANTED TO DRAW A
CONNECTION BETWEEN THIS TRAGEDY THAT OCCURRED, AND
THIS ENTIRE CASE, AND WHAT HAPPENED IN -- THERE'S A NEW
FILM COMING OUT, WHICH UNFORTUNATELY IS NOT OPENING
HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, BUT IT'S CALLED "FRUITVALE
STATION," AND IT'S ABOUT THE KILLING BY A BART POLICE
OFFICER IN THE SUBWAY SYSTEM IN SAN FRANCISCO, A BART
OFFICER KILLING AN UNARMED AFRICAN-AMERICAN YOUNG MAN
IN OAKLAND IN 2008, AND IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING FILM.
UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE NOT PROBABLY GOING TO GET A
CHANCE TO SEE IT HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, BUT I THINK IT
TELLS THE STORY AND HAS VERY SIMILAR ISSUES OF RACE.
>> THAT SHOULD BE INTERESTING.
I HOPE THAT COMES TO THE GUILD, IF THEY'RE LISTENING,
IN A MONTH OR SO. BUT IT MAKES A VERY GOOD
POINT. THESE ISSUES HAVE BEEN IN
THE AIR, THEY'VE BEEN OUT THERE FOR A LONG TIME, AND
WHAT IT SEEMS TO ME IS THIS CASE HAS BROUGHT INTO FOCUS
SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN IN FRONT OF US FOR A LONG TIME.
>> AND PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM. CAN'T TALK ABOUT RACE.
SOMEHOW I THINK WE HAVE TO MAKE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE
WE'RE COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT RACE AND OPEN TO THE
IDEAS, AND THINK ABOUT HOW DO WE ELIMINATE RACISM IN
SOCIETY. >> WELL SAID.
GOOD STUFF THERE. THIS IS A SUBJECT WORTHY OF
FURTHER EXPLORATION, AND WE PLAN TO HAVE AN InFOCUS
PANEL DISCUSSION IN AUGUST ON THIS VERY SUBJECT.
MEANWHILE, WE'LL BE BACK IN A MOMENT WITH A FRONT ROW
LOOK AT A PRESIDENCY.