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Witi: Opening Karakia
I would just like to
welcome everyone, welcome, those ones that are tuned in, so welcome everyone to this
presentation by our esteemed speakers, but in the meantime I would like to give this
time over to our two co-facilitators, Pania Lee and Moira Clunie.
Nō reira e hoa mā, ngā rangātira mā, ā, tēnā ra tātou tēnā ra tātou
Pania: Tēnā tātou. Tēnā koutou. Nau mai hoki mai ki ēnei o ngā raupapa webinar mate
whakamomori. He mihi kau atu ki a koutou ngā iwi karangā maha. Ko Pania Lee au Moira Clunie
tēnei, ko maua ngā kaiwhakahaere.
Welcome back to the second of three webinars on Māori suicide prevention brought to you
by the Mental Health Foundation in collaboration with Victoria University and the support of
the Ministry of Health.
For those of you who have just joined us today, my name is Pania and I will be co-facilitating
with my colleague, Moira Clunie, focusing on Māori suicide prevention involving whānau
and the community.
Respondent: Tena koutou katoa, ngā mihi nui ki a koutou. Welcome again to all of you.
Again, we have almost eight hundred of you registered from around the country as well
as a few international guests.
Before we introduce today's speakers I just wanted to outline the logistics for today.
Our webinar runs from 12.30 to 1.30. We'll introduce our two presenters and they'll both
share short presentations and then we'll take questions from our audience. So if you have
a question you can send this through by email, Twitter or Facebook, so you can email sophia@mentalhealth.org.nz
On Twitter you can tweet us at suicidenz, or on Facebook you can leave a comment on
the Mental Health Foundation's Facebook page, so you can do that right now or at any time
during the session today.
You can also access the PowerPoint slides for today's session on the SPINZ website,
www.spinz.org.nz -- that's S P I N Z.org.nz Those are online now if you want to browse
through them at your own pace.
Pania: Nei ra te mihi ki ngā tokorua ko Michael Naera rāua ko Di Grenell. He uri a Michael
nō te riu o ngā pūmanawa e waru, e ko Te Arawa waka. He uri a Di nō Ngāti Mutungā
o Wharekauri me Ngāi Tahu.
It's with our great pleasure to welcome today's guests' presentations, presenters Michael
Naera and Di Grennell. Michael comes to us from Te rūnangā o Ngāti Pikiao where he
is a Kia Piki Te Ora Project Leader in Māori suicide prevention for the Te Arawa region,
mai i Maketu ki Tongāriro, it spans from Rotorua, Kaingāroa, Taupo, Turangi and Mangākino.
Michael brings with him a wealth of experience as a Regional Project Leader in Māori suicide
prevention and as an Advisor for the Mental Health Foundation Suicide Prevention New Zealand
Te Whakaururoa, and Lakes DHB postvention advisory boards.
Michael will present on indigenous responses to suicide prevention through community development
and community action initiatives in the national Kia Piki te Ora network.
Respondent: Di Grennell is the Director of Operations, Whānau and Social Policy Wāhangā
at Te Puni Kōkiri, the Ministry of Māori Development. Te Puni Kōkiri is the lead agency
for Whānau Ora which is designed to build whānau capability and whānau-centred services.
Di is a mother, stepmother and proud grandmother of six mokopuna. She had a background in family
violence prevention, social services, education and iwi and Māori provider development prior
to joining Te Puni Kōkiri in 2010.
Di will present on the Whānau Ora concept, strengthening whānau wellbeing, capability
and whānau-centred approaches to services and suicide prevention activities.
Pania: So without further ado, nau mai haere mai e ngā rau rangātira tokorua, kei a kōrua
te wā.
Michael: Kia ora anō tātou katou. Pouri tu, Pouri noho, pouri taputapu tae atu ki
te turamarama ki te ora. Kei te mihi atu ki a koutou katoa. Tihei Mauri ora. Kia ora anō
tātou katoa.
Thank you for introducing me here today. The presentation that I'm going to talk about,
that I'm going to explain today is about turamarama ki te ora. And turamarama ki te ora is about
focusing on the future, where we're heading for Māori suicide prevention, not only as
Māori ourselves, but as Aotearoa New Zealand and throughout the world, so kei te mihi atu
nei ki a koutou
Ko te mea tuatahi, te mea tuatahi, he poroporoaki ki ngā mate kua hingā, kua hingā, kua mene
atu ki te pō. Ki a rātou mā e hikoi maro ki tua o te arai. Nō reira haere, haere,
haere atu ra. Tae noa ki ngā whānau pani o te motu nei, ngā whānau pani e tangi tangi
tonu me mihi nunui ki a koutou katoa. Kei a koutou te kakahu taratara mō tēnei wā.
Aroha pai atu ki a koutou katoa. Ki ngā mana whenua, Te Whangānui a Tara, a Ngāti Toa,
tēnei te mihi atu nei ki a koutou. Tae noa ki a tātou katoa o te motu nei, tēnā koutou,
tēnā koutou katoa.
So just a quick greetings to those who have lost loved ones to suicide. To mana whenua
to Victoria University for hosting today, ngā mihi atu ki a koutou, and to all those
who have signed on today to register to learn a bit more about indigenous Māori suicide
prevention. No reira tēnā koutou
It's important for me to start by demystifying the common beliefs that currently exist amongst
Māori people, and this is an indigenous approach to looking at Māori suicide prevention. But
firstly suicide in not entrenched in tikanga Māori. Professor Sir Mason Durie said this
at one of his lectures that it is not entrenched in tikanga Māori. That suicide is not normal
for Māori as well, and we shouldn't normalise this for Māori that although it's existing
in its current form and it's current state today it is not normal for our people.
Sir Mason Durie also goes into looking at it as a sequence leading up to suicide. It
could rely on internal mechanisms such as looking at mental illnesses, then leads into
maybe external mechanisms looking in things like problem gambling and other things that
negatively impact on Māori, and also to global... to the global mechanisms, looking at things
like global warming and how that affects Papatūānuku and Ranginui, and that in turn affects our
people.
One of the things that I'd just like to put out there is that suicide is not whakamomori,
now whakamomori has been used throughout Aotearoa New Zealand as a transliterate word for suicide.
Whakamomori is actually a state of mental... it's actually a state, and so whakamomori
looks at the deep-seated hurt, or mamae that's within a person as opposed to whakamomori
being suicide.
Suicide is painfully shattering and globally spread, and I say this because often when
a suicide occurs in a community we have... we are of the mind-set that it's only contained
to that community. But we must remember that our whakapapa not only extends throughout
Aotearoa New Zealand, it also extends throughout the world as well, we've got families in England,
families in America, so of course it's going to affect our whānau overseas as well.
Before I carry on, I've got a glossary at the end of this presentation in terms of understanding
the Māori words that I'm talking about today, so you can actually access my PowerPoint and
the meanings behind these words.
Suicide is not singular but complex, it remains with the person, the decision is with the
persons to actually look at the decision to take his or her life. But the thing that we
need to understand that it is complex, that it is an accumulation of loss, that it may
not be just one thing as Mason Durie has stated. It's a raft of things that lead to suicide.
And of course in New Zealand Aotearoa, and for those who are listening in from around
the world, Māori are twice as likely to be affected by suicide in our country, and are
twice as likely to be affected for suicide attempts and self-harm.
So there is an assumption that Māori suicide relies on a lot of factors. I've got four
dot-points up there at the moment, so it relies on hapū implementing tikanga and kawa so
there's an assumption that our hapū around the motu are seeking support from their kaumatua,
seeking support from their kuia, seeking support from the whole whānau.
The biggest thing with Māori is that we rely on wairua, or the spiritual element, and these
specialised... these tohungā, these specialists bring those into hapū.
Now hapū is our tribal... where our tribes are, for those of you who are from around
the world and don't understand, hapū is where I come from, where my genealogy goes towards,
my ancestry, my place where I stand, and so there's assumption that there's tikanga and
kawa when a suicide occurs.
Hāpori Māori, so when we look at hāpori Māori, in my terms hāpori Māori can mean
anything, but specifically for this presentation today hāpori Māori for me are those that
are dislocated, disengaged with their culture, those who are in geographical areas but have
very little contact with their own hapū. And so there is an assumption that hāpori
Māori are connecting back to their whakapapa, whenua, te reo which is Māori language, and
their spiritual element.
There is an assumption that service providers have their own policies and procedures in
place whereby Māori that are entering into your services, those who are at risk or at
serious risk identified by the specialists that are seeing our people, that they can
then refer them on to other specialists, not only in mainstream, but also to kaumatua and
kuia which is our elders, also to the whānau that they belong to or the hapū that they
belong to.
There is an assumption that the government is contributing to Māori advancement, and
so we expect from government that policies are strong, that support Māori wellbeing
and Māori advancement, so there is an assumption that those are in place.
So the lessons I've learnt, so having worked in the [unintelligible 00:15:31] District
Health Board region, the lessons that we've learnt there, myself and my colleague, is
that there is a difference between hapū and hāpori Māori. And Hapū, when a suicide
occurs the Hapū come together and they surround their whānau, they look at the grieving process
from an indigenous approach, they look at how to support a whānau through their grief
through to wellbeing. They look at our general practices that are occurring on our Māori
so that they can help.
And hāpori Māori there is... the lessons we've learnt in hāpori Māori is that disconnection
is huge in hāpori Māori when a suicide occurs. And a lot of our hāpori Māori rely on the
state to take care of their needs because of their limited access to kaumatua and kui.
So the lessons we've learnt so far is that we need to look at how do we connect hapū
and hāpori Māori together.
But the reality is, or are, is that hapū... many of our hapū have all the tikanga in
the kawa, or the Māori customs that go with dealing with mate, but identifying how to
assess someone that's at risk is limited on our marae. So when someone is at risk, identifying
that isn't quite there. If I can say that.
So the other things with hapū is that there's a general understanding that whānau are taking
care of their loved-ones, and that they... when someone's at risk that they have the
mechanisms to take care of that person or their people... that person.
Hāpori Māori, so the realities with hāpori Māori is that, to put it in simple terms,
hāpori Māori are just looking to put food on the table. Hāpori Māori are looking from
day to day to pay their power bill, and if a suicide occurs those who are living in hāpori
Māori are looking at how to pay for the funeral bill and the expenses that come with that.
So when the state comes in and providers them with postvention mechanisms all they want
to do is just to look at day to day living and getting over the grief of suicide.
So lessons learnt from suicide from service providers, now there is a siloed effect here
where our loved ones are going from schools into the health organisations, into social
services, so it's sort of like a bunny-hopped effect, so no one's actually picking up if
our people are mauīuī, or sick, or they're feeling down, or they're at risk, so they're
hopping along all these systems and they tend to... and so what we're needing to do is to
look at how we reclose that gap, how we look at our organisations working together.
Moira: Ok.
Michael: So we had a few questions this morning come in and, you know, on how to work rangatahi,
how to work with kaumatua, but my key message today is that it's up to your community. I'm
from Te Arawa, and Te Arawa can't tell you how to run your rohe. My DHB can't tell you
how to run your DHB. And the thing that we need to do as a people, or as a community,
is to get together and hui, and hui, and have a kōrero, and to come up with community strategies
to deal with this hui to deal with the ngangara and the pouri that exists within our community.
And only community can do that, and if we're disconnected from hāpori Māori, if we're
disconnected from hapū, how do we expect the rates of suicide for Māori to be reduced.
The key thing in my presentation today is that we're looking at protection of mana,
and the protection of wairua, so mana extends to the person who maybe has passed on, looking
at the protection of those who have attempted suicide, and the main thing for me is looking
at the protection of whānau who are currently grieving at the moment, that we shouldn't
fear them because they've lost someone to suicide, that we should manaaki our whānau
without the fear that they have a suicide label above their heads. Let's go back to
where our tūpuna and our ancestors, how they manaki our loved-ones who are grieving.
Wairua, the wairua is the biggest aspect that we need to look at, and the government policies
that I've read and community policies that I've read, wairua is non-existent within these
policies, but it exists in hāpori Māori and it exists in hapū, and it's very strong,
and so although the wairua diminishes when a suicide occurs, hapū and hāpori Māori
have an ability to pick that wairua up. As Māori and as service providers we need to
ensure that we walk alongside hapū and whānau as opposed to coming down and putting a westernised
view on hapū and hāpori Māori. We need to walk together, we need to do that together.
So in the ending, whakatoki from our esteemed kaumatua, Te Ariki Morehu from Te Arawa, kāore
au e te tutuki i a au, and that's why I'm here today. And Te Ariki Morehu said to me,
I went to him for his wise counsel, and I said 'oh, what am I going to say, Te Ariki',
he said 'you're here to deliver a message not only to our own hāpori Māori and our
hapū, you're here to deliver a message to Aotearoa New Zealand, and now to the world.'
Kei te mihi atu ki a koutou katoa.
Yeah. Sixteen minutes.
Di: He mihi atu tēnei ki a koutou. Ngā kaikōrero o te ra, tēnā ra koutou, ki a koe Michael
tēnā koe mo tō kōrero ātaāhua.
I join my acknowledgements with those that have already been given, particularly for
those of you who have joined in and registered on this webinar because you are dealing with
issues within your own whānau and your own community, and I know there will be some of
you there, and to acknowledge that really when we come to look at this particular take
we're normally grappling with numbers of questions.
And I've started my presentation with this question he aha te waiata? What's the song?
And there'll be times for every whānau, or most whānau, when we're engaged in activity
that involves us with our kawa and our tikanga. When you see the eyebrows sort of go up, or
people whisper to each other 'oh, what's the song', or 'what's our song'. And having a
song implies a whole lot of things about the ways in which we're connected, the intergenerational
or other knowledge we've had the opportunity to engage with, and so for me the conversation
about suicide prevention is, in no small part, about how we put the songs back for our whānau,
for our hapū, for our iwi, for our communities.
And this particular phrase that sits on the slide in front of you from the words of Mokomoko,
before he was hung in Mount Eden prison, 'take the rope from my throat that I may sing my
song' were words that I came across in the mid-1990s when working with a number of whānau
who were impacted on by the suicides of young people who instead had made a choice to put
the rope around their own throat and end their song.
And that stimulated probably, I suppose, a continued life of work that centres around
these questions. And I think they're questions that we grapple with irrespective of what
our work role is, or where we might sit within our own whānau, hapū, and iwi, about how
we create the sorts of structures and experiences that bring whānau together to identify their
own strengths, their own issues, their own solutions, their own pathways, and how we
develop and realise the protective potential of whānau.
And so, for me, these are very much whānau ora questions that we need to be asking at
a policy level, so as a government official what are my responsibilities for thinking
about how we create those structures and experiences and realise that potential, as service providers
how do we do that, how do we organise our mahi in a way that means that whānau are
actually in the driver's seat, not the passengers being towed along behind our range of services,
at an iwi and hapū level what do we have in place that will stimulate this, and then
within our own whānau how do we work to develop and realise the protective potential of our
members.
Michael: Hmm-hmm.
Di: Now I want to bring a reality balance to that kōrero as well, though, and Michael's
touched on some of the challenges that exist between those of our whānau who are in more
challenging circumstances, and our hāpori Māori, because there's a risk if we go down
this particular whānau track that we can oversimplify and then make whānau responsible
for everything.
Michael: Hmm.
Di: And Michael's referred to the work of Professor Sir Mason Durie already today, but
this particular quote from Mason I think becomes really, really important. Where we have whānau
who lack particular material and social resources, this can really undermine the ability of whānau
to exercise that protection and to protect their family members. So I think we need to
be really very balanced then in our approach to what it is that whānau are able to do
for themselves and how we can support and stimulate that. There's a context in which
our suicide prevention kōrero sits, that's also an economic conversation, it's an employment
conversation, it's an education conversation, it's a community conversation, and so we need
to have care that within this we look at a whole broad range of factors that will enable
our whānau to flourish so they can exercise that protective potential for individual whānau
members who might be challenged.
I think also that it's easy to become overwhelmed, firstly by the pain and then by the complexity
of the issues that we're dealing with, and in that whole picture then difficult perhaps
to work out where we position and what it is that we might be responsible for, and of
course we can't see you out there, but we know from your registrations you come from
a whole range of roles and situations. And the spectrum of prevention is a tool that
I think can be quite useful for us starting to think through where we are positioned and
what our role might be in respect of both this whānau conversation and the suicide
prevention conversation so that we bring balance again to that and look at the different levels
at which we might all work to influence the things that we are able to influence. It's
really important that we have people who are able to be working at a community level, such
as Michael and the other Kia Piki Te Ora coordinators, and working with hapū and with community
to strengthen the knowledge and skills of individual members of whānau, and promote
education and wananga in those communities so that people start to build their own tools
and their own resources.
There are others of you though who will be sitting at an organisational practice level,
or at a policy or legislative level, and my invitation to you all is then to go back to
those initial questions that I asked about how we create the structures and experiences
that best support whānau, and whether with policy, providers, organisational practice,
to bring that lens and to bring that thought into the discussion, and understand what it
is that sits right within our circle of influence that we're able to exercise and create change
in.
I think the other thing for us all is then to start to really think through the work
that's been done already around Māori models of practice, and this is one that's well-known
again from Mason's work te whare tapa whā and really start to think through what it
means at a whānau level if we're going to be embracing what we call holistic methods,
and if we're going to be thinking about what are practical actions and practical things
that whānau can engage in. So taha tinana, having had some previous experiences in mental
health respite provider, never failed to interest me, the lack of emphasis there was on looking
at exercise and nutrition for people who had issues that they were grappling with in terms
of their mental health. And increasingly as I look at some of the information that's coming
through to us from whānau through Whānau Ora, also really interested in the interface
with other aspects of healthcare and how often whānau and whānau members are limited by
physical conditions and illness that contribute to stress, depression, isolation, or limit
their opportunity to participate in employment. So there's some really interesting things
for us to think about there, and what are the catalysts for our physical action. Iron
Māori on the face of it, may not necessarily be seen as a suicide prevention initiative,
I'd suggest that those elements of engagement, whānau connection, and all of the things
that sit alongside it actually mean that it is in fact speaking into those issues.
Those of you who had the privilege of hearing Keri's kōrero will know the things that she
talked about, particularly in terms of spiritual dimensions and the challenges that have come
to us over time as we've been displaced and dislocated as a people, and sometimes we can
overcomplicate the spiritual, but many of our spiritual practices are linked to place,
and I think that's part of Michael's point about hapū and hapū connections, and the
opportunity to link to water, to our awa, our lakes, our maunga, our sacred stones,
our places that we can go and engage, how can we support whānau to engage in that journey
and to connect in ways that are safe.
Taha Hinengāro, language is really important. Do our people have a language, either Te Reo
Māori or any other language in which they can communicate and express themselves whether
it's their dreams or their fears...
Michael: Hmm-hmm. Hmm-hmm.
Di: ...and how do we support that. How do we support what our tūpuna knew about having
a disciplined and unclouded mind, whether that's a mind that's free from the influence
of drugs and alcohol, or a mind that has been trained to think and analyse and reflect so
that people know that they do actually have a choice, that pain is part of life but it
doesn't have to be the end of that story.
And in terms of whānau, then the role of connection, of genealogy, or of our whakapapa,
of inclusion of all members of the whānau so that everybody has the opportunity to be
a contributor, not just seen as someone who has an issue or a problem in their whānau.
So I think there's a great deal of work that we can continue to do to support and walk
alongside whānau in stimulating and growing their skills and strengths in all of these
areas, and in doing that ourselves and for ourselves, and I suppose, you know, that's
a challenge back to each one of us at this table as well as to how well we're moving
from having a model of practice that sits on a shelf to actually having these things
as practices and models for the way that we live.
So obviously key influences within the whānau have got to be those who are in a relationship
of trust, and we've touched on many of the points that are sitting here around the importance
of spiritual and cultural responses, traditional ways of assessing and engaging, the importance
of identity, but there's two things I'd like to just stress here, the two bottom points,
one is that cultural and clinical approaches can be complimentary.
Michael: Hmm.
Di: We don't have to turn whānau into clinicians, that's not their role, we do need clinicians
who understand whānau though and it's... that becomes important. These can be complimentary;
they don't have to argue with each other.
The other is that within our broader whānau ora approach we've seen some really exciting
things that I haven't got time to talk about today in the whole area of whānau planning
and seeding hope and aspiration, and I'd encourage you to have a look at the website reference
that's on the slide and look at some of the stories that are starting to come through
from that particular space, because we're starting to see how whānau planning is creating
an opportunity for that engagement and that conversation, and we're keen to see and understand
more about how that can work for whānau in a protective way.
So in summary, if we're going to be talking about what our song is, and if we're going
to be talking about the opportunities that we have to engage with and for whānau -- and
I'm just doing a time-check here because that's always... always helpful -- I think our...
my other word would be kia tūpato, and protect and guard our hearts, because despite our
best intention, our best intervention, there are times when an individual member of our
whānau is that meeting place of time, history, opportunity, stress factors, internal factors,
external factors, brain chemistry, and choice, and someone does take their life. And that's
something that we need to continue to hold while we hold all of that sense of power and
potential that sit within our whānau and the ways that we can exercise that.
In terms of the song that I think we want to be able to replace for our whānau, if
every member of every whānau had an understanding of what we have here, that they are a seed
sewn in Rangiatea...
Michael: Hmm.
Di: ...that they are seeds sown from greatness, if that was all we did then I think that we
would start to see some real change and we have to think about all of that.
Nō reira e hoa mā
He kakano ahau, i ruia mai i Rangiatea
And I can never be lost, I am a seed born of greatness.
Descended from a lot of chiefs.
He kakano ahau
Nō reira kia ora mai tātou
Moira: Kia ora. Thank you, Di, that was beautiful. And thank you both, Di and Michael, for your
insight and for your messages of hope and strength.
So we've got some time for questions. Just before we get into that I just wanted to quickly
remind people how you can send through questions for our presenters. You can do that either
by email, Twitter, or Facebook, so you can email sophia@mentalhealth.org.nz. On Twitter
you can tweet us at suicidenz, or on Facebook you can leave a comment on the Mental Health
Foundation's Facebook page.
So the first question that's come through was before the session, from a child and adolescent
mental health service working in a crisis team, who's asked how they can be effective
working within mainstream services to support hāpori Māori.
Who wants to take that?
Di: How was it for you?
Michael: Effective. How is it effective?
Moira: How they can be effective.
Michael: They can effect.
Michael: I guess one of the biggest things about being effective, you know, working in
mainstream, aye?...
Moira: Yeah.
Michael: ...and working in mainstream is basically just touching on what Di was talking about,
that to... looking at the culturally appropriate approaches towards our whānau. The next thing
is to look at your own policies within your organisation to see if, for example, someone
who is at risk enters into your organisation and whether staff are able to work with our
people who have walked through the door. And often... often what we get is that when our
whānau walk through the door in mainstream and in Māori providers is a panic attack
because the person has... I'm going to take my life. Now we need to reduce that by looking
at how effective is our... our training for staff so that they don't reflect back that
they're in that panic attack, that they manaki our people.
One of the first things we need to do is firstly offer them a cup of tea, so that may be the
first thing you need to do in mainstream is offer them a cup of tea me noho and then to
talk. But in mainstream it's looking at your own policies and they need to be sound, and
staff need to know how to work with those policies, they need to be trained in those
policies, so that our people aren't discriminated against when they walk through the door. So
kia ora koutou
Pania: Yeah, so the last seminar Keri focused on the importance of a paradigm shift and
how we deal with the issue of Māori suicide, and highlighted the importance of engaging
with whānau in traditional knowledge, and today Michael and Di talked about the practical
steps for whānau and community in Māori suicide prevention and strategies.
And a couple of questions have come through -- one question from Te Whānau o Whangaruru
who have asked how do you address the issue of service providers who hold contracts but
do not engage with those communities who have lost loved ones to suicide. So I think it's
a question of responsibility as well, like who is responsible for engaging with whānau?
Di: Well I think everyone's responsible, but I think it's a challenging and complex environment
when we start to break into the areas of service funding, because there's no doubt that contracts
tend to fragment and we end up perhaps with postvention, prevention, intervention, crisis
intervention, primary, secondary and tertiary services, and somehow in the middle of all
of that you can find a whānau or a community, particularly sometimes those in rural and
isolated communities who can't find the place for that service need to be met. And sometimes
to there can be misunderstandings about the sort of responsibility that a particular provider
might have -- often we hear the word suicide in their service description and assume that
they cover all of those things and they may not. But there are points of contact that
can involve district health boards, that can involve conversation with the provider themselves
who you believe might carry that responsibility.
But I take Michael's point about panic because the other thing that sometimes comes into
this is judgment, and we can sometimes look at another provider from the outside and think
maybe they're not doing their job. We don't necessarily know until we've had the conversation,
so I'm a great believer in mā te kōrero, engage with them, talk with them, find out
what it is that they are doing and how they can support in your particular community.
Michael: And just to add on, service providers, some service providers don't know how to engage,
so that's another process of how do we engage with communities, how do we engage with hāpori
Māori and hapū, so that's something that the service will have to discuss on how they...
how they link with iwi to come in and speak to them about how they engage with their own
communities. Koira noa iho
Pania: And so one question is how would whānau be better engaged with service providers?
How do they make that relationship work? Build that relationship?
Michael: We shouldn't become independent [sic], Māori shouldn't become independent [sic]
on service providers, we should look at our own strategies firstly that who's to say that
our kaumatua don't have the wisdom to look after our people, you don't say why shouldn't
our kui look after our people, why shouldn't our mokopuna be safe. But as Di mentioned
in her presentation, sometimes that takes a bit of time to awhi our whānau.
But I think the goal for us, as Māori, or as an indigenous race of this country, we
should look at aiming at a goal to move towards how do we take care of our own people without
becoming independent, or dependent on the state, and becoming independent of the state,
which is a big statement in itself, but, aye, we have rangatira that have passed on, that
have done miracles for us, so koira noa iho.
Moira: Hmm.
Moira: Perhaps just picking up on that point around practical steps that whānau can take,
and maybe some of what, Michael, you were staying around hāpori Māori earlier, there's
a question about Māori with disability, so the question is what are some of the practical
ways that urban disconnected whānau members with disabilities can start the process of
self-healing and connecting back to culture where the whānau don't practice tikanga Māori
or anything along those lines.
Michael: Hmm. Yeah.
Di: Hmm. I think that's a really significant challenge and one that we've been exploring
to some degree in the whānau ora space with the advice and support of some of our leaders
in the disability field who are from whānau because there are double and triple wounds
sometimes for whānau and community there, particularly when the certain disability types
people have historically been removed from their whānau. So I would encourage you, if
that's a particular issue or interest you might want to email in to Te Puni Kōkiri,
to the... to our information email address, or to our whānau ora email address, because
there are a couple of things that we could identify for you as some practical places
to start in that conversation, and perhaps some people who might be able to provide you
with some advice in that area.
Moira: Cool. Thanks for that. Just another one, how do we ensure our services and approaches
are reflective of the diverse realities of Māori today?
Michael: The main thing is that you need your advisors around you, your Māori advisors,
you need iwi, hapū to sit at the table with you. If you're going to look at a strategy
to move ahead you need to look at your own Māori health teams to support you as well,
in designing or even looking at how you engage with communities in that. It's so important
that that happens, because as I said earlier our people are coming through the doors and
they feel uncomfortable, they feel uncomfortable to talk to a clinician, they feel uncomfortable
to even go to the hospital per se, so you need to start from the basics which is in
line with your communities, your Māori communities, get them and have a kōrero.
Moira: Hmm. Hmm.
Di: I think, for me, a big part of it is actually listening to, and seeing where people are
at, you know, we have a... we have a good short saying titiro, whakarongo, kōrero you
know, observe, listen, then talk. And I think that diversity expresses itself often in urban
settings where we've got young people who might have Māori and Pacifica background,
or other backgrounds and engagements, and so listening to and observing where they are
most comfortable, and how they prefer to engage, and then as Michael said understanding your
community well enough to respond and engage in ways and in places that they feel safe
is really important.
Moira: Very good.
Pania: We've talked about the complexities of suicide, and one of the questions is how
do you see Māori suicide in relation to other addictions such as problem gambling, alcoholism?
And how would you address these types of coexisting issues of complexities?
Michael: Well as I've mentioned in my assumptions that there is an assumption that problem gambling
organisations are doing the mahi, there's an assumption that those, in the child abuse
arena, taking care of our tamariki, there is an assumption that CYFS are taking care
of our children. So upon that assumption is that you have your policies in place, or your
assessments in place to take care of our kids, kaumatua, kui who come through the door.
Now suicide is a symptom of all those contributing factors such as problem gambling, child abuse,
*** abuse, even transgender as well, but as long as everyone's doing their job there's...
the hope is that the suicide rate does not escalate and that it reduces. I hope I answered
that question. Pēhea te whakaaro?
Di: Hmm-hmm.
Michael: Hmm.
Di: I think that's... you know, that's part of the challenge and the complexity is, yes,
and I think Michael's identified some really good points around everybody understanding
their work and having the policies and procedures in place. I think the challenge from the whānau
end is what they experience when they're trying to deal with fragmented service provision,
and so what it is perhaps that we're able to support, and one of the approaches that
we are putting some more emphasis on in a whānau ora approach is actually navigation
of approaches that will help link whānau to services rather than whānau having to
almost take a Yellow Pages or a website approach of trying to identify which thing for which
issue, and giving up because it just feels to complicated. So who will walk with them
on that journey and not say oh, sorry, my contract only takes me as far as pathology
or problem X, I can't walk with you anymore.
Michael: If I could just offer an example from our rohe from Te Arawa, we had a koroua
and his daughter lose their mokopuna, or her son, and their conversation with us was that
we had all these services come in, we had the hapū trying to help us, we had everyone
else from outside of our district come in to help us, but all we wanted to do was grieve,
was actually grieve, and to tangi because we've just lost someone. And so their key
message was that we just wanted the... our tikanga kept intact, or our Māori customs
kept intact. We wanted our mana kept intact, and we also just wanted to acknowledge that
the pouri was there, and to work through the pouri, or the sadness, of that loss. So koira
noa iho.
If we're looking at those who are attempting suicide or self-harming, I'm sure it's looking
at their dignity as well, their integrity, looking at the person's integrity, looking
at their mana, looking at their wairua, ensuring that that's intact. It's no good when you're
turning up to a service and you're turned away because you're being told that you're
seeking attention. Kao.
When we welcome onto Māori, we take... when our Vice Counsel welcome manuhiri, or guests,
onto the marae they don't look at what they're bringing, they're looking at their ancestors
that they're bringing with them and they acknowledge that. We should all do that as well.
Pania: I've got a question on tikanga, and we've already identified that that's essential
in suicide prevention, and maybe the question is... requires a little bit of clarity around...
the question is if suicide is not entrenched in tikanga, not normal for Māori, then why
do we need to empower it by giving it a Māori name.
Di: He pātai pai tērā.
Michael: Ko koe tērā.
Di: He's throwing that one at me as fast as... maybe we don't need to empower it by giving
it a Māori name, and I enjoyed Michael's comments and the reflection on whakamomori,
and I'm aware that both Keri and others have done some work around sort of unpicking and
understanding what is there, and it's always a challenge, do we empower or create something
as an additional reality by applying those kupu to it, or do we... do we silence it or
shut it down by not having a word.
I think the critical thing is what will allow us to have the conversation in a way that's
safe and in a way that can be clearly understood by those who are second to be part of the
conversation.
Panel: Hmm.
Pania: Kia ora. And on that point one question is about engagement and engaging, so our higher
suicide rates are among... with rangatahi, so how do pāhake (adults) engage with that
group of...
Michael: Ka pai
Pania: Yeah.
Michael: The main thing that I've observed in the three years that I've been working
in this industry is leadership, is leadership. And the reason why I say that is that it's
their problem, it's their problem, it's their problem, but I am looking at you through this
camera -- I can't see you of course -- but if you were to look at me straight in the
eye... eyes... or in the eyes, you guys are the leaders, you guys are the leaders in the
change for this kaupapa, ok. It's not uncle down the road, it's not aunty down the road,
it's not the Minister of Health, it's not that, it's you. So leadership comes in all
forms, and so, you know, he kupu ki a koutou, e tu whakarangātira koutou. Stand up, stand
up and make a difference for this kaupapa.
Di: Hmm. Hmm.
Pania: Is that rangatahi stand up and make a difference for the kaupapa, or...?
Michael: Well rangatahi... let's look at rangatahi since that keeps coming through the reins,
and myself and my colleague did a wānangā about two months ago, two or three months
ago, and rangatahi look at us adults and they say well you guys don't really understand,
you don't understand us, you send us to all these mental health organisations and the
police, but we don't trust them. And we said to them, so what do you do, and they said
we talk amongst ourselves, we have our own clique, we have our own clique. So I don't
know what the answer is for rangatahi, maybe we need to ask rangatahi. Maybe we need to
sit them in the room and say he aha tō whakaaro mō tēnei, what are your thoughts for this,
because, you know, I'm heading on into my twenties... nah, I'm heading on and...
Di: Ooh!
Michael: ...and so... so... all jokes aside, we need to ask rangatahi. Rangatahi know the
way forward for themselves.
Di: The only quick comment I'd add to that is that if we're not already engaging and
in a relationship with our rangatahi, our taiohi, then what makes us think that we can
jump into this conversation with them.
Panel: Hmm.
Di: So if we're stepping back into that more kind of whānau thinking mode, what are the
opportunities to build and strengthen the relationships and engagement across generations
and between whānau members, how do we value our taiohi and our rangatahi, or do we only
seek to engage with them when they seem to present to us as a problem or an issue.
Panel: Hmm.
Di: And I think we need to get our focus way into how we engage respectfully on their terms,
and on our terms...
Michael: Hmm.
Di: ...it's a two-way street, so that when these difficult issues come up we already
have established communication pathways.
Pania: Kia ora. I have one final question before we finish, and it's about developing
a strategy. And the question is, should hapū focus on developing hapū-based strategy as
an individual hapū, or can hapū develop a strategy as a collective hapū, iwi, and
a national... or at a national level as well? What's your advice?
Michael: What the key message is really we're offering in Te Arawa, and I can only talk
for Tawera, is that specific hapū, Ngāti Pikiao, we have developed their own hapū
strategy to look at this take, and we had a wharanui of over two hundred people attend,
and they had input into that strategy. So kei a koutou, whatever you think is right
for your hapū, just call a hui, bring the whānau together, bring the hapū together,
and kōrero. And that's the main thing, kōrero, and just finally, before I hand it over to
Di, Te Ariki Morehu who said to us when we had this hapū hui, he said ānei te papa
me kōrero, and so everyone in their whare talked about it and now they've got a strategy,
so... inspiration for you here.
Pania: Yeah. Kia ora.
Di: Kia ora. Not a great deal to add except work in the ways that you normally organise
yourselves and have found to be effective when you deal with other issues, whether positive
issues or challenging issues. How do you best organise to achieve a good result and start
there rather than waiting for everybody to want to join your kōrero.
Pania: Kia ora.
Michael: Hmm, yeah.
Pania: Kia ora. Ngā mihi nui.
Moira: Kia ora. So, well, yeah, we'll wrap up there. Thanks, again, for your time, attention
and participation. Thanks for your questions, and thanks to both of our presenters, Di and
Michael, it was great to hear your perspectives and...
Moira: ...your insight. Thanks again to Victoria University of Wellington for hosting us, and
my colleagues at the Mental Health Foundation for their work putting this series together.
The slides from this session are on our website already at spinz.org.nz, and the video will
be online shortly, so if you've registered we'll send you the link for that, otherwise
keep an eye on the SPINZ website over the next few days.
The recording of our last webinar with Keri Lawson Te Aho is online as well for you to
have a look at if you didn't get a chance to make it along to that session. The next
webinar in this series is on the 19th of March, the topic is around improving care and intervention
for Māori, and we'll hear from Doctor Nic Coupe and Doctor Lyn Russell who both have
research backgrounds in this area. You can register for that on our website as well.
So thank you again, I'll hand over to Whiti Ashby to close.
Witi: Kia ora tātou, ā, ko te mea kei te rongo nei koutou ngā kōrero i tēnei ra,
kia puta nei kia a mātou nei, wēnei tokorua kōrero a rāua nei whakaaro, ki tēnei kaupapa
mate whakamomori. Nō reira tēnei kei te mihi atu nei ki a tātou nei kaikōrero puta
noa ki āku nei rangātira mo to tatou nei mahi a Mental Health Foundation. Tēnei, kei
te mihi atu tātou katoa, e puta atu ki a tātou kaihautu i a tatou i roto i tēnei
whare kei te mihi atu nei, kei te mihi atu nei ki tēnei whare. Nō reira,
I'd just like to thank everyone that's watching in today, and especially to our two esteemed
colleagues that came in for kōrero today, and especially for my colleagues from the
Mental Health Foundation who came down to here today to put this together, and especially
to Pania, Pania Lee, and Moira Clunie who facilitated this webinar. I'd like to thank
them, too, as well. And on behalf of Mental Health Foundation I'd like to thank you all.
Before we close... before we... well I'd like to close with a karakia,
Nō reira, tēnei kei te mihi atu. Kāore tātou e wareware ngā tini mate, ngā tini
aitua, ā, rātou kua wheturangitia ra kua hoki atu ki te kōpū o te whenua. Kei te
mihi atu nei kei te mihi atu nei
I'd also like to thank those ones around the world who's watching these from America, from...
from Australia, from all over, so thank you very much for... for linking in nō reira
me inoi tātou.
Closing Karakia
Panel: Amene
Moira: Kia ora.