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WE'VE GOT ALL OF THAT AND A LOT
MORE ON THE SHOW THIS MORNING.
BUT FIRST, A STATEMENT AND A
QUESTION.
WE'VE SEEN A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN
AMERICA'S ATTITUDES TOWARDS GAY
RIGHTS IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.
HERE'S THE QUESTION, HOW MUCH
HAS THE MEDIA INFLUENCED THAT
CHANGE.
LET'S BACK UP A MOMENT AND LOOK
AT WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK.
ANOTHER LANDMARK WEEK FOR GAY
RIGHTS.
THE GOVERNOR OF ARIZONA VETOED A
BILL THAT WOULD HAVE GIVEN
BUSINESSES THE LEGAL GROUNDS TO
DENY SERVICES TO GAY PEOPLE.
IN TEXAS A FEDERAL JUDGE STRUCK
DOWN THAT STATE'S BAN ON GAY
MARRIAGE AND IN KENTUCKY A
DISTRICT JUDGE SAID THE STATE
MUST RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGES
THAT WERE PERFORMED IN STATES
WHERE THEY ARE LEGAL.
OF COURSE, THESE BATTLES ALL
ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE FAR FROM
OVER.
LOOK AT HOW MUCH HAS CHANGED.
REPUBLICANS MITT ROMNEY, JOHN
McCAIN AND EVEN SOME FOX NEWS
STARS, ALL SPOKE OUT AGAINST THE
ARIZONA BILL.
HOW MUCH OF A ROLE DID WE IN THE
MEDIA PLAY HERE.
LOOK AT THIS RESEARCH CONDUCTED
BY THE PEW RESEARCH CENTER LAST
SUMMER AROUND THE GAY MARRIAGE
DEBATE.
IT FOUND THAT STORIES
EMPHASIZING SUPPORT FOR GAY
MARRIAGE WERE FIVE TIMES AS
COMMON AS STORIES EMPHASIZING
OPPOSITION.
SO IS THE MEDIA COVERAGE OF THIS
ISSUE SHAPING AMERICA'S CHANGING
ATTITUDES?
OR IS IT MERELY REFLECTING THOSE
CHANGES THAT ARE HAPPENING
ANYWAY.
JOINING ME TO HASH THIS OUT IS
BEN SHAPIRO COLUMNIST AND EDITOR
AT LARGE FOR BRIGHT BART.COM AND
FOLLOW MASS FRANK THE AUTHOR OF
"WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS."
THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME.
>> SURE THING.
>> THANKS SO MUCH.
>> TOM, THIS CUTS TO THE HEART
OF WHAT SOME PEOPLE COMPLAINED
ABOUT FOR DECADE, THE IDEA THAT
MEDIA IS BIASED IN THE CASE FOR
LIBERALS.
IS THAT THE CASE AND WHAT ELSE
ACCOUNTS FOR THE CHANGING
ATTITUDES WE'VE SEEN IN ALL OF
THE POLLING IN RECENT YEARS?
>> I'VE ALWAYS BEEN A BIG
DOUBTER OF THE LIBERAL BIAS
CRITIQUE, ALTHOUGH MAYBE THIS
ISSUE IS DIFFERENT.
IF YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE
LONG HISTORY OF THE BIAS
CRITIQUE GOES BACK TO WE KNOW
WHEN IT STARTED, SPIRO AGNEW IN
1969 BASICALLY INVENTED THIS AS
A WAY OF GETTING BACK AT THE
NEWS MEDIA OF THE DAY THAT WAS,
YOU KNOW, THAT HE THOUGHT WAS
OPPOSING THE VIETNAM WAR AND
THAT SORT OF THING.
AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S GONE ON
AND ON OVER THE YEARS AND THE
HILARIOUS THING IS THAT THE
MEDIA IS OBJECTIVELY MUCH LESS
LIBERAL TODAY THAN IT WAS THEN
AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF THIS
STUFF.
BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A VERY
INTERESTING QUESTION.
DOES THE MEDIA REFLECT OR DOES
IT CAUSE?
AND PEOPLE DEBATE THIS ALL THE
TIME IN SOCIOLOGY AND HISTORY,
ALL SORTS OF OTHER DISCIPLINES.
I USED TO ARGUE ABOUT IT MYSELF.
>> BEN, WHERE DO YOU STAND ON
THIS?
DO YOU FEEL THAT THE PRESS
EITHER RESPONSIBLY OR
IRRESPONSIBLY ENCOURAGES
ACCEPTANCE OF GAY MARRIAGE AND
LAWS THAT ENCOURAGE GAY RIGHTS?
>> AS FAR AS THE BIAS OF MEDIA
WHETHER IT'S REFLECTIVE OR
GENRETIVE THE FACT IT REFLECTS
L.A. AND NEW YORK AND GENERATES
FEELING ELSEWHERE.
PEOPLE TEND TO REFLECT THE
SITUATIONS IN WHICH THEY LIVE.
THE MEDIA IS LARGELY BASED IN
COASTAL LARGE CITIES, LIBERAL
CITIES, AND THEREFORE THEIR BIAS
IS REFLECTIVE OF THOSE CITIES
WHILE CHANGING THE REST OF THE
COUNTRY.
>> IS THE PRESS IN THIS CASE AN
ENEMY OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM THEN?
WE SAW SO MUCH CRITICISM OF THIS
BILL FROM REPORTERS AND FROM
COMMENTATORS AND FROM CORPORATE
INTERESTS?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
ABSOLUTELY AN OPPONENT TO
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
THE PRESS BELIEVES THAT
ESSENTIALLY RELIGIOUS
INDIVIDUALS SHOULD BE FORCED TO
ABIDE BY WHATEVER THE PRESS'S
STANDARDS OF MORALITY ARE.
YOU'VE SEEN PEOPLE LIKE TONY
CORNHIGHSER ON ESPN SUGGEST THIS
LAW WOULD FORCE PEOPLE GAYS IN
THE STATE OF ARIZONA TO WEAR
YELLOW STARS OR GAYS AND
LESBIANS WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO
ATTEND NFL FOOTBALL GAMES.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE
LAW AS WRITTEN AND DESIGNATED TO
CREATE THE PERCEPTION THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE A BUNCH OF
BIGOTS LOOKING TO CROWBAR GAY
PEOPLE IN THE STREETS.
>> DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THE
AMERICA I KNOW.
HYPERBOLE IS COMMON IN THE
PRESENCE.
>> HELL I DEAL IN THAT STUFF.
THAT'S WHAT I DO, MAN.
CAN I JUST --
>> COMMENTARY AND THEN THE NEWS
MEDIA AND THOSE ARE TWO
DIFFERENT THINGS.
>> CAN I TAKE A STEP BACK HERE?
I'M FROM KANSAS AND MY -- THE
THING THAT GOT ME WRITING WHAT'S
THE MATTER WITH KANSAS WHEN THEY
HAD THE DEBATE OVER THE THEORY
OF EVOLUTION IN THE STATE OF
KANSAS AND THE MEDIA ALL OVER
THE WORLD WENT ABSOLUTELY BE
ZESHG, MAKING FUN OF KANSAS.
IT'S A REPLAY OF THE MONKEY
TRIAL DOWN IN TENNESSEE IN THE
1920s.
IT WAS A CLASSIC MEDIA SET PIECE
AND EVERYBODY WAS LAUGHING AT
KANSAS AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE
LOCAL CONSERVATIVES STRUCK BACK
SAYING YES, THEY DIDN'T DESCRIBE
WHAT WE WERE DOING PRECISELY TO
THE LETTER.
THEY DIDN'T GET IT EXACTLY
RIGHT.
THEY HAD A POINT.
BUT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF
THINGS, THE MEDIA HAD THAT STORY
RIGHT.
I THINK THEY HAVE THIS ONE RIGHT
AS WELL.
>> SORRY.
THOMAS ADMITTED THE MEETING IS
BIASED AND SKEWS THE STORY BUT
IN GENERAL THEY HAVE THE STORY
RIGHT.
EXPLAIN HOW A LAW THAT DOESN'T
MENTION HOMOSEXUALITY IS ABOUT
ALLOWING RESTAURANTS TO HAVE A
RIGHT THAT TRUMPS FEDERAL LAW
WHICH THIS DOES NOT AND HOW THIS
LAW IS GOING TO ALLOW
RESTAURANTS TO RANDOMLY THROW
GAY PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR
BUSINESSES IN A WAY THEY WEREN'T
ABLE TO BEFORE IN THE STATE OF
ARIZONA?
PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME HOW
THAT'S ACCURATE.
>> IT'S NOT A LAW.
IT GOT VETOED.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HEARD ABOUT
THIS.
>> A BILL, CORRECT.
>> YEAH.
SO I DIDN'T READ THAT ONE BUT I
DID READ THE BILL IN KANSAS, YOU
KNOW.
THE ACTUAL LAW ITSELF, THE
PROPOSAL ITSELF, THE BILL THAT
GOT VETOED THE OTHER DAY AND
THEY HAD ONE IN KANSAS AND A
BUNCH OF OTHER STATES, THAT'S,
YOU KNOW, THE REALLY INTERESTING
THING.
WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?
WHO DEVELOPED IT.
THAT SORT OF THING.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS SORT OF MY
OPINION IS THAT IT WAS ALL SORT
OF GINED UP AS A KIND OF CULTURE
WAR SET PIECE TO RALLY THE
TROOPS, GET SOMETHING FOR PEOPLE
TO FEEL PERSECUTED ABOUT, GET
THE VOTERS WORKED UP ABOUT THE
ONSLAUGHT OF, YOU KNOW, LIBERALS
AND THE TRIAL LAWYERS AND THE
OUTSIDE JUDGES AND THAT KIND OF
THING.
FEN F
THEN FALLING BACK ON LIBERAL
BIAS IS SALVAGE A GAME THAT'S
BEEN LOST BASICALLY IN MY
OPINION.
>> BEN, WHEN YOU COME ON
TELEVISION, WHEN YOU WRITE
COLUMNS, DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU
ARE BEING PERSECUTED OR DO YOU
FEEL YOU ARE BEING, YOU KNOW,
PUT IN AN UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION
BECAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE SEEMS TO
BELIEVE THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU
BELIEVE?
>> I'M HAPPY TO BE A LIBERAL.
I SPENT MY LIFE IN LOS ANGELES
IN CAMBRIDGE, I LIKE BEING IN
LIBERAL AREAS AND DUKING IT OUT.
NO QUESTION THAT THE MEDIA IS
BIAS TO THE LEFT AND NO QUESTION
THAT THE MEDIA IS VERY MUCH IN
FAVOR OF GOVERNMENT THAT GETS TO
CONTROL WHAT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE DO
WITH THEIR PRIVATE BUSINESSES.
I MEAN, AND DO I FEEL PERSECUTED
IN THAT WAY?
LET'S SEE.
IF THE GOVERNMENT DECIDES IT CAN
TELL ME TO VIOLATE PLY OWN
RELIGIOUS PRESETS BECAUSE THE
GOVERNMENT HAS A GREATER GOOD IT
IS ATTEMPTING TO PURSUE WITHOUT
EVIDENCE THAT GREATER GOOD IS
ACTUALLY A NECESSITY, ANYBODY
WHO COMPARES THE PLIGHT OF 2014
G
GAYS TO BLACKS IS ABSURD.
WE STILL HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH
AND I'M HAPPY FOR YOU TO BE ON
THE AIR, FOR YOU TO BE ON THE
AIR THOMAS.
I THINK THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE
LIKE YOU THAN ME.
>> AWESOME.
>> YOU MEAN THE PRESS?
>> THAT WOULD BE THE CRAZIEST
THING IN THE WORLD.
I'M ALWAYS THE ODD MAN OUT.
I MEAN, IF YOU KNOW THE DAY --
>> YEAH, RIGHT --
>> I SHOULDN'T GO DOWN THIS ROAD
BUT I HAVE SPENT MY ENTIRE LIFE
HAVING EXTREMELY UNPOPULAR
VIEWS, UNPOPULAR OPINIONS, AND I
AGREE, THANK GOD FOR THE FREEDOM
OF THE PRESS.
THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S --
IT'S A WONDERFUL THING.
>> I'M ACTUALLY NOT EVEN, YOU
KNOW, ON THE SIDE THAT YOU
PROBABLY THINK I'M ON BUT AS FAR
AS BEING ON THE DEFENSE, BEING
FROM THE RIGHT ON A LEFT NETWORK
LIKE CNN, OF COURSE I'M ON THE
DEFENSIVE AND I GO IN WITH GAME
PLANNING FOR IT.
IT'S NOT THE SAME THING AS GOING
ON FOX NEWS WHICH, OBVIOUSLY,
LEANS TO THE RIGHT.
>> TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOU PLAN
FOR IT?
I'M CURIOUS.
WE'RE ON THE MOST META SHOW ON
CNN.
HOW DO YOU PLAN FOR IT?
>> WELL, WHAT I DO IS I ASSUME
THAT I'M GOING TO GET A CERTAIN
SET OF QUESTIONS FROM FOLKS LIKE
YOU, BRIAN, I GENERALLY DO GET,
AND WITH ALL THE VEILED
IMPLICATIONS THERE IN.
DON'T YOU FEEL PERSECUTED GOING
ON A LEFTIST NETWORK BEING THAT
I SEE MYSELF AS A VICTIM.
DON'T YOU FEEL WHEN YOU COME ON
A LEFTIST NETWORK BEING ATTACKED
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE JUST A
LITTLE INTOLERANT.
THESE ARE THE WAY THESE
CONVERSATIONS GO.
I'M GLAD BRIAN THAT YOU HAVEN'T
DONE ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
YOU'VE DONE SOME OF THEM.
OF COURSE WHEN I GO IN I WOULD
BE FOOLISH NOT TO THINK ABOUT
THE QUESTIONS I'M GOING TO BE
ASKED BEFORE DOING SO.
>> AND, OF COURSE, I HAVE TO SAY
CNN DOES STRIVE TO BE
NONPARTISAN.
I UNDERSTAND YOU FEEL IT DOESN'T
SUCCEED AT THAT ALL THE TIME.