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professor richard wool is with us he is professor emeritus of economics at my
alma mater the University of Massachusetts in Amherst Massachusetts
also a visiting professor at The New School University
here in New York City professor we talked last week about an article
written by michael lind in salon
about how do you unite to as progressives defeat
libertarians and conservatives on the economy
and the article as I explained last week argues
that while the right is mostly United on economic policy the left is increasingly
divided amongst
three areas unionism small producer -ism
and economic rights now michael lind argument is that
unionism is great but we have less Union
a be involvement than ever before down to 11 percent
small producer ISM is OK in theory
but only seven percent of Americans are self-employed many of those are actually
wealthy investors that may not even be
traditionally self-employed business people
and its unrealistic to focus on the idea of simply having small producers so
economic rights is where the left should focus
economically labor law universal health care mandated vacation et cetera
question one is do you agree that these are the three
divisions so to speak and then the obvious follow-up is whether you agree
with the analysis
well in part I see what he is trying to do
I certainly agree with the objective of
building a unified last my own experience traveling around the country
which I do a lot these days
is that the sideways annual
level of sophistication and
impetus and enthusiasm up the left
is very large my guess is significantly larger
then that's a the Tea Party movement on the other end
up the Spectrum's so for that yes
I support what he's trying to do is correct about the weakness of the labor
movement
and about the small and relatively economically insignificant
self-employment
sector of our society where i disagree
is I don't think the best way to divide
I'll what's happening in order to bring it all together
I is the way he does agreed that he uses
so I would like to propose an alternative I think the left today is
taller
into to large segments
the way the left has periodically been in American history
usually on the EU's update coming
a powerful social force so I'm not depressed
about this split I actually see you
as an all-girl of good things to car and here's what I me
one part to the left and buy it now
I would have to say the larger or is what we used to call
reformist outages it's the people who believe
that the fundamental system
is basically okay even if they don't say so
a *** focused their attention on making some
improvements getting wage is higher for example
a higher minimum wage I getting
health insurance better than Medicaid and Medicare
for a single-payer system or something along the way
in that direction and saw so this would be kind of like an incremental list
approach so to speak lightweight whatever we can do to ago
from where we are today to something that is even slightly better
that's the focus exactly and you find that part of the system that
bothers you the most and you focus your energy Dayak
improve housing improve a wage levels improve health care
improve the transportation system do something
against pollution and saw and that's the biggest part of our left today
up but there is another perspective which is gaining on the first floor
still mine Rd but it's big and becoming big
and I don't know exactly what word to use so I like to use the word
systemic these are people who believe
that incremental change however good
in and of itself 10 knots all
what has increasingly become the basic problem lying
on all of that particular grievances
and that is an economic system that fundamentally
doesn't work for the majority of people
these are folks who are critical of capitalism or I'll
the system or all the status quo there lotta ways of saying it
and believe that systematic change is what's necessary
most recently they have focused on the connection a draw of between
the way this system operation is organized
and a growing divide between rich and poor
the inequality of wealth bing.com and the one that follows from that
is the inequality other access to real politics
real political decision-making culture and show all
and that the society is being yanked the paw
the to america's that too warring factions
and I think this kind of criticism that is systemic
is the one to watch the one that's growing
and the one that in the end poses the biggest challenge
to what's going on even as it offers a chance
other kind of sweeping change that could really
altered the lives of people in the way that most Americans I think
already have the appetite 4
if I could and one point the parallel I suggest
beginning with earlier periods in American history
if you take the period before the Civil War
when America was again divide at a particularly around the question of
slavery
there were two kinds of people in movement
you might call them the leftists up their day
the whole reformers alright as you put it the incremental miss
they were concerned that's lameee be better how
that's lame be better fair the couldn't destroy the slave
family by ripping husband from wife and children from
aaron's and all those horrible qualities of slavery
that folks a polls but health alongside
these people there were those who said might call up to the first group
of problem isn't and the solution isn't to make
as slavery better all the problem is
slavery the problem is that the person is a sleigh
and if all you do is make this lady better all
but leave the condition of slavery it's only a matter of time
before the master whom you left in that position
takes back whatever is in the way I reforms
you win now my argument would be
where exactly in a parallel situation visibly capitalism
those who wanna make incremental improvement and those who argue
that's no longer an adequate response
to a system that performs in this way
so I think the the distinction the contrast is pretty clear which is
what difference does an extra dollar minimum wage make for example
when we fundamentally have a system that is increasingly putting a huge portion
of the
up society and those who live in this country at a systemic a disadvantage or
or position above
lack of power however at this point we we have to ask the obvious question
which is
pragmatically speaking if we look at 5
10 and twenty-year periods for example
which of the two could actually produce the most
identifiable change day-to-day
and then we have to ask does it make sense to spur to split our time does it
make sense to focus on one or the other
what might be given up in the short term by only focusing
on upending the system well
I would argue that this is not unnecessary choice
in other words I with argue that what
successful social change has always involves
has been a combination of both on the one hand
you fight for improved minimum wages
improved public transportation unimproved
health care system you fight for those stains you hope you can make progress
me and you're proud when you can but you are
honest and you explain to people
what the limits are up this kind of change
what that in security is whatever you need an achievement with this kind of
change
so that %um also bill the consciousness
the awareness and the commitment to make them more systemic change
but instead I'll incremental improvement
but as in the end the only way
26 sure lost incremental achievements
that you rather in American history shoulder this
in the nineteen thirties we got a social security system
but now it's being dismantle in the nineteen sixties in fifties
we finally got and I and enhanced welfare system
I Lyndon Johnson's Great Society it is now being dismantled
people are learning that if you want to shoot sure
the advances you may if you want to guarantee that they will be lost
then this system has to be changed otherwise your lead in place folks
with the incentive and only sources John on
jewell whatever incremental improvements you make
alright Professor Richard both visiting professor at The New School University
here in New York City pleasure as always
thank you David and good luck to you