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Should Memphis increase taxes to fund pre-k education tonight on
"Behind the Headlines."
♪♪♪
I'm Eric Barnes, publisher of The Memphis Daily News.
Thanks for joining us.
We are joined tonight by a number of people involved with
the debate over the sales tax referendum coming up in
November.
First is Shea Flinn, Memphis City Council.
Thank you for being here.
The Reverend Doctor Kenneth Whalum from New Olivet Baptist
Church, thank you for being here.
Thank you.
Hank Herrod, doctor with the Urban Child Institute,
thanks for being here.
And Bill Dries, senior reporter with The Memphis Daily News.
I want to start.
And when we talk about this there's a political aspect any
time there's a vote and any time there's taxes involved.
But I want to strat with you, Dr. Herrod,
to talk about as apolitically as you can why you're an advocate
for pre-k education.
Forget expense I guess.
At some extent forget the politics of it.
What are the benefits as you see?
Well we know from the biology of the developing child that these
first years are when the brain is developing,
first of all most rapidly.
It's a period of time when the neurocircuits upon which
subsequent brain growth is dependant or being connected and
being formed.
And it's a period of time when the brain is most plastic in the
sense that it's more adaptable to different things.
So these early, early years are really critical.
So that's the biology of what's happening in the brain.
On the other side we've got really strong data that shows
the impact of early intervention in the form of educational
experiences for young children.
And there are a host of studies that clearly demonstrated that
at-risk children or children from more fluent families,
if they're exposed to a high quality educational experience
early on in life they're much more likely to enter school
ready.
They're much more likely to enter school ready to perform at
the expected level in the third grade and the ninth grade to
graduate from high school, etcetera.
So it all begins in these earliest years.
And in Memphis where we have a lot of issues and with families
at risk, kids at risk, the idea of being able to create an
environment in which they can get an educational experience
that would bring them up to the standards that kindergarten
teachers are expecting I think is a really powerful one to
consider.
And so Shea Flinn will bring the politics in at least to some
extent.
You have put for you and I think Jim Strickland have pushed this
for a couple of years now.
There's some, what?
-- 40 million, 47 million, 50 million.
You do the numbers.
Depending on the sales tax you want to earmark a portion of
that.
Tell us what the proposal is as you've shaped it.
The proposal and..
There can be a lot of confusion with the previous sales tax
effort led by the County Commission.
This is not that.
This has, we think, solved a lot of flaws in that that can give
the public the guarantees that they need,
that this money that if they choose to raise this money from
themselves can be spent as it needed to be spent.
This money would come from the state to the city and go in to a
trust account that woujld administered by an early
childhood commission.
Mayor Wharton has put forward some of the nominees for that.
And if this passes the council will act on those
recommendations.
They will then utilize that money to meet the pre-k needs
present in the city of Memphis.
After that because it is a projection,
because there is a ramp up period,
whatever money is not being used,
it won't go just..
It will go to relieve some of the property tax pressure that
we're feeling in this community.
Roughly 20 cents off the rate. Is that?..
It depends on how you do it and how you ramp up and what the
needs are over.
When we started this it was about 27 million.
Well it was actually 23 million but then we knew that the
Headstart money..
Not Headstart, the Race for the Top money that the Shelby County
school system was receiving was going to go away next year.
So we built in money for that.
Then since then, we've had the sequester which has added about
another 630 needed spaces.
So we raised the money, you know,
raised for that.
So it's tough to say where you're going to get with the
property tax decrease side of it.
I mean it's conceivable in a few years after you've ramped up
with four-year-olds if you drop to three-year-olds that there
wouldn't be any money spent on that.
But that will be the early childhood commissions call,
not any one else.
And I want to come back to some of those details about costs and
dollars and tax rates and so on.
But let's get you in, Doctor -- Doctor Whalum..
Reverend Whalum, excuse me.
You have some concerns about this,
about this proposal.
What are those?
Well first of all the notion of the need for pre-k education is
something that everybody in their right mind would agree
with.
The work of the Urban Child Institute has been stellar for
years.
And they've been telling us the problem is poverty.
The problem is the need for effective pre-k education and
intervention.
My problem with the proposal is that it does not guarantee that
every child who needs it is going to receieve it.
And I believe that the average voter..
It's counter-intuitive for the average voter to say,
"Well yeah, let me pay more taxes for something that I may
not benefit from."
It's counter-intuitive.
And so I'll be just pushing and pushing for people to vote no
because there are other ways to do directly what we're
attempting to do indirectly.
So my problem again has to do with the fact that not every
child who needs it is going to get it or is guaranteed to get
it under this proposal and is counter-intutitive and sort of
unfair and sort of a taxation without representation kind of
approach to ask people who are the poorest of the poor to pay
more in sales taxes to finally come around and decrease
property taxes which poor people don't pay.
There are several problems with it.
But the major thing is that it's counter-intuitive.
That's all.
And so Shea, do you see that?
I mean let me ask one part of that question.
Does this guarantee pre-k education for everyone in
Memphis?
It guarantees everyone who's not currently already receiving it
based on, and I believe, the Urban Child Institute numbers
there's about 12,000 students in that four-year-old range.
And you know a third of them just aren't going to go to pre-k
for whatever reason that their parents don't want them to.
Then you have certain number of slots and a certain number in
private pre-k providers.
And then this would provide the opportunity for everyone else.
The only limit to this is going to be the amount of money
collected.
Again, the property tax thing is because we didn't want to get in
to a wheel tax situation.
When we would talk to people about this in the ramp up,
oh the wheel tax.
You say you're gonna spend it on that.
How?
How do we know you're not gonna just turn around and spend it on
something else.
We might be for pre-k but we don't want you jokers in
government to waste it.
So we wrote it in to the body of the question.
Those are the only two things this money can go for.
If down the line someone tried to do it,
a citizen such as Reverend Whalum could sue and win.
I mean we specifically wrote the charter question of that.
And a couple other points that he said is yes,
there would be an increase in the sales tax.
It's a de minimis one.
It's the one that most every city,
at least over half of cities or counties in the state of
Tennessee are already at that level.
It would take it from, what?..
9.25 to 9.75 which is the maximum under state.
And the suburbs did that as part of the tax -- excuse me,
it's part of the school funding issue a year ago.
And I almost have to..
Something the Reverand Whalum said there that..
And this is one of the myths in our community that the poor
don't pay property tax.
That is completely incorrect.
After analysis a lot of the poor rent.
Renters are -- take the pass through tax rate from a
commercial property which is at 40%.
If you own your own home, you're assessed at 25%.
So actually the poor pay more in property taxes.
Property taxes impact them more.
Okay.
Reverend Whalum, are you concerned that there's any --
that the money that, as Shea Flinn described,
you know, is going to go in this lock box?
Are you?..
Are you confident that box exists,
that it is locked?
Well it depends on where the $57 million is that the Supreme
Court of Tennessee ordered the city to pay.
And again guys we're talking about a referendum where the
average ordinary person is going to go in to the booth and vote.
The average person is not going to be able to make the
distinctions that Shea has just referred to which are nebulous
at best.
The average voter in Memphis is going to say,
well wait a minute.
Didn't the court order you to pay $57 million for my children?
And you didn't pay it.
So the average voter is going to say,
well you already have $57 million.
Why don't you just use the $57 million to provide pre-k.
I'd be willing to go with that.
Again it's a matter of common sense and going in to that booth
saying am I gonna vote to pay more taxes myself or am I gonna
vote to say no, use the money effectively that we've already
given.
Bill?
Isn't the $57 million though one-time money?
Absolutely and if we take it that one time,
provide pre-k that one year, that would give us time to see
what the real numbers are.
Shea mentioned the sequestration but we're also in the middle of
a present shut down that's unrelated to the sequestration.
We don't know how that's gonna turn out.
We don't know how many children need this service.
You've got $57 million.
A a former member of the school board I'd be willing to agree.
Okay, take this $57 million. Provide the pre-k one year.
Let's analyze the numbers and the real need.
And I believe that's what the average voter would go with.
But as we've discussed many times on this program about the
$57 million, two points.
Not only is it one-time money, also it's money that's owed to
the school system.
And as Reverend Whalum knows, pre-k is not part under state
law.
The school system is k thorugh 12.
It's not pre-k.
So there's no guarantee that the money there would go.
As a matter of fact, there's a lot of reasons it wouldn't.
Secondly, we do have a counterclaim in court alleging
that the school system owes us money.
The reason that we haven't paid it is because when the school
system took us to court to make us pay,
the judge said no.
And so until our counterclaim is heard,
that needs to be a set back.
Shea knows there is no counterclaim.
Have you seen the counterclaim?
There is no counterclaim.
Absolutely is a counterclaim!
Have you seen it?
No, I haven't but there are a lot of things I haven't seen.
There is no counterclaim to a court order, none.
There is a counterclaim to the original case in controversy.
None.
Alright, we're going to table that in the sense that this..
What we know now is this referendum is up for a vote.
Do we know though?.. Let me turn it back to you here.
The numbers.. Some of these..
How many kids.. I know I don't..
I'm maybe putting you unfairly on the spot.
How many kids would potentially go in to this program?
I mean are those?..
Is that something Urban Child Institute has a good number on?
We do.
[laughter]
Well good, there's a clean answer.
The best guesstimate is there are probably eight to
nine-thousand kids who would be potentially eligible for this
program.
Four-year-olds?
These are four-year-olds.
What about three? What about younger?
I mean I suppose..
From my perspective one of the great things about this is it's
moving the whole conversation down another year.
I mean ten or 15 years ago we didn't talk about K.
We talked about elementary school and high school.
K is in place now. People understand it.
If we can get pre-k in place, what we ultiamtely need to do
and the Reverend has mentioned this is we need to start doing
some things that support those families from an educational
enrichment perspective who don't have the needs internally to
help the kids.
Because that's where you're going to get the biggest ***
for your buck.
And I got this from studying the Urban Child Institute's data.
Even if a child gets benefit of pre-k,
if we don't do something to enhance the economic conditions
of that kid's family those advantages are going to be lost
by the time the child gets to the fifth grade or eigth grade
or whatever it is.
We've got to take a year.
I think to analyze what really is before we waste money which
is what it would be if the kids are going to lose the benefit.
And again, so it's counter-intuitive to spend money
for uncertainty.
It's intuitive to say no to increasing my own share.
Research wise, I heard you saying before I thought,
Dr. Herrod, that if you get a kid in to pre-k,
statistically they're going to be better off down the road.
There's no question.
But I guess there are as Reverand Whalum said.
They can be derailed by other factors.
It's not a guarantee.
Nothing is 100% in this.
I mean the parents in the worst circumstances have kids that
turn out to be all stars.
The parents with the most resources have kids who are
disasters.
So there's nothing 100% about this.
But if you look at populations, the opportunity for a kid to be
successful in school are greatly enhanced if they have a pre-k
experience, a good K experience.
And I mean it's just so predictable.
The Chicago Parent Child program which had thousands of kids in
it clearly demonstrates that kind of progression.
Bill?
As we're having this debate about the referendum,
the Shelby County School System is also debating whether or not
it should make an application for the Headstart funding some
$23 million that Shelby County government now has.
If the Shelby County Schools should make that application to
take over that program, how does that complicate what a city
board appointed by the mayor would do with these sales tax
dollars?
Not at all.
Not really because then you got these requirements for Title I.
You've got all these federal requirements with regard to the
families that are going to receive those benefits.
Again I think it's very unfortunate to conflate the
discussion to make it a thing of well if I'm opposed to the sales
tax hike, I'm opposed to pre-k education.
Not the case.
But what we have to do is if the Shelby County School Board is
going to take on that responsibility,
we have to be clear about who's going to get the services,
how they're going to be delivered and how those
regulations are going to be manifested.
Because if we don't we're in danger not only of losing the
federal dollars, we're in danger of losing the benefits of those
federal dollars.
Respond.
No, the way this is set up is outside providers will bid on
the contracts that will be provded on that.
Shelby County Schools System could be one.
Other qualified day cares in the community could be one.
Some new group could be one.
And that would be up to the early childhood commission to do
it.
And I would take issue with the idea.
I mean I am not a big tax and spender.
I've been fighting taxes in this community for a long time.
The reason I am for this tax increase is because we all
sitting around here at the table have talked about the merits how
everyone should be for pre-k, how the science backs it up,
how it's something that we need to do for our community.
And the reality is it has to have a dedicated revenue stream.
It can't be one-time money.
And the only way given the financial circumstances of the
federal government, the state government,
the county government and your local municipal government --
the only way to pay for it is through this tax increase.
If I thought there was another way that was beyond just talk
then I would glady go for it.
But there isn't.
And let me quote from Mayor Wharton I think from a story
maybe Bill did or someone did.
If we don't spend these dollars here on pre-k,
we're going to spend them anyway.
My preference is to spend them on the front end where we know
we can make a difference than to spend that same money on the
back end in juvenile court and teenage girls with babies and
boys you don't respect themselves and folks that find
themselves at a very young age doomed to a life of failure.
So again coming to you Reverend Whalum,
you have concerns with this.
Let's say for a second it's an imperfect proposal yet it's
something you, the pre-k education and intervention
almost, is something you believe in.
Is it not possible to work within the system to support,
say the referendum and then try to work to make the system
better, work to expand it?
Why not go down that road when it's something you are very
passionate about, pre-k.
You know what?
I would call a press conference and stand with Shea and Jim
Strickland and Mayor Wharton and everybody else and support it if
they would tweek it and say all of the revenue goes to pre-k
education.
It's not gonna be all of the revenue.
If there was no property tax related?
It eventually could be.
Well eventually is not what the average ordinary vote..
See that's who we're talking to right now.
The average person is going to say should I vote to increase
sales taxes on something that may or may not be.
That's not wise politics.
What we have to do is to pay attention to k through 12.
That's what we're statutorily obligated to provide,
k through 12 education.
The statement that Mayor Wharton is quoted as giving has to do
with the failure of k through 12.
Let us focus on k through 12 Eric.
If we don't all fo the pre-k benefits in the world are going
to go by the way side.
Why not Shea?
Why not say well we want a tax increase and it's all gonna go
to pre-k?
We're all talking about and we're gonna expand it to
three-year-olds.
And we're all..
In principle everyone seems to agree that this is incredibly
important.
Why put some property tax relief in that mix?
Because we are not bound compeltely by politics.
Reverend Whalum is right.
We could go out there and say that.
But at the time we're doing it we have to create policy.
And policy is more complex than just the talking points that you
use in an election.
And the reality was when we started this 23 million would
have covered everyone that was left in that.
It has since gone up and this raises 47 million.
And we don't want this to become another funnel of give-away
money.
So that's in there but we fully expect the pre-k commission to
expand the program, to make it the best practices and it will
eat that money up very, very quickly if we do that.
But we had to set to tell the public where the overage was
going to go.
Where the overage was going to go, okay.
I got ya.
So under that scenario the cost of it might go up.
So let's say that all the numbers work out in the first
year after the referendum passes if it passes.
You get $47 million.
You spend 30 million on pre-k, on the pre-k expansion.
Do you immediately move with the remainder of that to lower the
city's property tax rate?
Probably not.
It would depend on how the flow goes.
But what's important to remember is it's held in a trust account
that's controlled by the early childhood commission.
The early childhood comission would not remit the money to us
until after the budget.
Because that was one of our fears.
We didn't want council people to start saying hey,
I can spend this on this program and that program.
And we put the control in place of this early childhood
comission.
I think it's an incredibly important comission,
probably one of the most important since the airport
authority that was.
I mean this isn't just one of those show comissions that
governemnt trots out again.
This is real meat.
They're going to dealing with real dollars and they have to
have the ability to do that.
So but the main control was the first dollar up to the last
dollar will go to this pre-k education first.
If there's any left over we want the citizens to know how it's
gonna be used so it's not just simple reprogammed to how the
wheel tax was done several years ago.
And the average voter is going to listen to that,
is going to say you know that sounds like that wheel tax.
The average voters gonna say well why you tying all these
strings to it.
Why can't the money go to what you say you really care about.
Is your.. Walk me through this again.
Is your point here that use the $47 million all for pre-k or use
the $47 million for pre-k through 12.
If the real desire is to provide pre-k education for every child
who needs it and that's what Shea and Jim and all the people
brought out, that was their real motivation,
the average voters going to say if that's your real motivation
then let's just raise the money for pre-k.
If the problem is the property tax let's deal with that on a
separate track.
Anytime you have to raise money to do commercials to get a
message to the average voter to try to convince them that yeah
it sounds like this but it's really this.
It's not going to work properly.
The average voter, Bill, is going to ask the same question
you asked.
Well why don't we just spend the 47 million on pre-k?
That's the issue.
Let me change the conversation a little bit Dr. Herrod.
The business community locally, Chamber of Commerce,
Memphis Tomorrow have come out very much in favor of this.
It's been part of the kind of campaign to support it.
You've said something before about we used to be arguing
about high school through k.
And then we, you know. Then we embraced k.
Is it gratifying?
I don't know how to ask the question.
Is it gratifying to you to see the business community,
these people who, you know, are not really particularly in favor
of increased taxes stereotypically or increased
government programs?
They're pretty full-forced behind this.
Yeah, I think what--
[coughs]
Excuse me.
What we've seen in Memphis and lots of communities..
We tried everything in the world to try to improve our work force
to try to make our cities more economically viable.
Investing in early childhood is a hard sell because it takes so
long before you see the outcome.
But if you look at works from lots of people,
the most notable James Heckman from the University of Chicago,
Nobel Prize winning economist who didn't get his prize for
this work, he's clearly shown that your return on investment
is greatest when the investment is made down here in the
earliest years.
It's great that you have job training.
It's great that you get paid through college.
But the big return on investment is here.
And let me follow that up with we tend to think about this as,
you know, as average citizen.
It really is a cognitive and an educational kind of thing.
But the real savings, the real *** for your buck in part is
because of social-emotional things that these kids learn in
those more structured environments.
So where the big money comes from,
you don't build as many jail cells.
Mayor Whartons alluded to this.
You don't have as many teenage pregnancies.
You get more people paying taxes at a higher rate.
So this business community, as business communities will want
to do, they'll be looking at this and saying damn,
we've tried it.
Excuse me. We tried a lot of things.
This looks like this may be something that we have to bite
the bullet.
And we got to go in for the long haul.
I think it's a great opportunity for public-private partnership
that the business community can sink it's teeth in to and get
all kind of *** for the buck.
If we're talking about $47 million dollars even,
if that will cover the cost of pre-k let's be creative with our
pilot programs.
Let's ask the business community.
Okay, you guys know the value of pre-k education.
Why don't you guys fund pre-k and let's use this other
valuable money to focus on k through 12 so that the pre-k
benefits won't be lost?
But this is a matter of working together for public-private
partnerships.
The average voter would say hey, yeah that sounds good.
Let me make one quick comment.
A part of what the reverends talking about is what's called
the fade where kids from these pre-k programs come in.
They come in with a higher I-Q and it fades out.
One of the biggeest reasons and we're just now recognizing that
that happens is that teachers are having to spend a
disproportionate amount of time with the kids who did not have
that early educational experience to bring them up.
So they don't have as much time to spend with other kids.
Let me just say if there was another way I would be for it.
The business community, you couldn't count on that.
You need a dedicated revenue stream to fund this program.
The only way we're going to find that is by this minimal sales
tax increase.
That's it. It brings us up to the average.
We just have a little bit of time left.
Pure just clarification question.
Who would administer these programs?
Who would administer?
The early childhood commission would..
Would it hire or would it outsource?
It would outsource. They would come.
It would be a public-private partnership depending on who bid
on those to provide these services just like a bidding
process like we do there but it would be adminstered by this
early childhood comisison.
Again this is an important comission.
It's an important part of getting my support separating
the politics from the policy on this.
You get the last word in. Thank you very much.
Thank you Doctor Herrod.
Shea Flinn, Reverend Whalum, appreciate it.
Thank you. Thank you for joining us.
Join us again next week. Goodnight.
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