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Kevin Kao: So, we are here today to interview Dr. Mitzi Kolar. She just retired from San Diego
State University after 37 years teaching there. She served as coordinator of the piano area and
director of graduate studies. She's also the co-author of several piano method books and my
mentor as a piano teacher. So welcome, Dr. Kolar.
Dr. J. Mitzi Kolar: It's good to see you.
Kevin: Yes. So, first question I would like to answer for parents and teachers,
is what is piano pedagogy?
Dr. Kolar: Pedagogy is just another word for teaching. It is piano teaching. And, just as we have
specialists in the public schools for teaching music, they must do a degree in education that
prepares them for working with children or working with whatever age group they have
specialized in. So, what piano pedagogy is about learning how to teach piano. Where we look at
the psychology, the materials that are going to be taught, strategies for use in teaching the
lessons, and the group areas. So, it's everything to do with teaching.
Kevin: Sounds like a lot.
Dr. Kolar: It is.
Kevin: So, when did this field begin, the piano pedagogy?
Dr. Kolar: In the United States, and I'll focus primarily on the United States, we have had
method writers, as I am, since the early 1920s. And in the United States, the emphasis or the
desire for students to be able to read music has been a key component. Students, as a result, the
very earliest method books, John Thompson, John #[ 0:01:48.0], all focused on what we call the
Middle C Method, which is where students gradually learn, note by note, this is middle C, this
is the D above middle C, and we have had these method books in the United States many,
many, many more method books than any other country. And,
they have largely driven piano teaching.
In the 1950s, we had two really major leaders in piano teaching that came onto the music
teaching scene. One was Frances Clark, and her method that is still being used in the United
States, and Robert Pace. And, I had the privilege of being one of
Robert Pace's graduate teaching assistants.
In the 1950s, the desire was still to teach reading, but both of these leaders in piano teaching
felt that it needed to be in a more comprehensive approach. That students needed to understand
what they were doing, because until this time, it had largely been teaching the notes. The
students would focus on learning how to play pieces, and there really wasn't much more
involved in their piano lessons. In the 1950s, it became much more comprehensive.
Kevin: Okay, so you start talking about kind of how it started changing from first it was the
Middle C Method. Can you go into more details about
the specific changes in piano pedagogy and how it evolved?
Dr. Kolar: The first degrees in teaching of piano, where you could actually go to university and
learn about it, really also started in the late 50s, 1960s. Frances Clark had her new school of
music study, which still exists, and then Robert Pace was at Colombia University Teachers
College. And, he started having largely graduate students come in to learn about teaching
piano. We have had, in the United States, various universities that have done a course or a
survey about what materials could be used, but these two along with Northwestern University
in Evanston, Illinois, were some of the initial degree granting institutions in piano pedagogy.
So at that point, they focused on material, but each of the two leaders that I mentioned earlier,
Pace and Clark, they also focused on their materials, which were more comprehensive, to help
teachers learn how to teach reading, how to teach creativity including improvisation, how to
become more comprehensive in teaching things like technique. So, there were classes in their
degree programs where the student could actually teach, but also observe master teachers
working with the various areas.
Kevin: So, would you say that the biggest change in thinking in piano pedagogy would be going
from the Middle C Method to something more comprehensive where it involves everything?
Dr. Kolar: It was, but the approaches to reading also started changing. Frances Clark was
largely known for intervallic reading. And, her method starts with just two lines, and the
students start seeing what a second or a step is, or what thirds are and skips. So, it had been
totally middle C approach until Frances came along and started looking at intervallic. With the
whole idea being that the research that was being done in reading was showing that students
needed to also see the distances between notes. And also,
larger patterns of notes, like repetitions of phrases.
Pace was much the same way. He didn't look specifically at teaching seconds and thirds exactly
the same way. He was known more for multiple key and he was one of the first who delved into
five finger positions, or pentachords as we call them. And, his is still one of the truly multiple
key where a student in their first six weeks of piano lessons plays in all twelve major keys.
Because his philosophy was that the student needed to know the entire keyboard because those
original C methods really devoted themselves to teaching only, largely, the key of C major for
many weeks. So, it's changes of keys, it was changes of approaches of reading, as well as then
trying to draw in the comprehensive elements.
Kevin: Okay so, you talked about the intervallic reading and then the multi-key approach. So,
what were some of the problems that came up with the original methods of say middle C, and
what was available when it first started?
Dr. Kolar: Let me say that teachers are still using these materials. In fact, you can find John
Thompson all over the world, yet, being used. So not to disqualify any, we can have very big
successes, but each one may have certain areas that are addressed less, and
as a result, there is a weakness.
Certainly, one of the things that was driving both Robert Pace and Frances Clark was that,
although we were trying to teach reading with the middle C approach, the students' reading
wasn't developing as significantly as they thought. So, they felt that the students needed to
have a more comprehensive, or needed to be looking at other things,
as well as just the naming of notes.
So, rhythm often times will go out the window as the student looks and says, oh that's a D. The
rhythm has gone. And so, it was trying to make sure that the student was also a good rhythmic
reader, but they could see larger patterns more rapidly #[ 0:08:07.6]. And in reading, it is notes,
it's intervals, it's patterns, it's all of these things that the teacher needs to develop.
Kevin: So, the Intervallic Method will help the students in terms of sight reading where they
can pick up music faster, where they're not thinking about recognizing letters, as opposed to
just seeing a direction and how far the note moves and translating that to the fingers.
Dr. Kolar: That's right.
Kevin: Okay. I think this would be a good time for you to talk about the Celebrate Piano!
Method, which you co-authored. So, why don't you tell me a little bit about
the method and how it came about?
Dr. Kolar: Certainly, again, all these materials are still available, so that we have the Pace
Method and we have Frances Clark, it's called The Music Tree. Then Jane Bastien followed
short on the steps of Robert Pace, with a more gradual introduction of keys. But since that time,
we've had many new methods come out and each one tries to find the magic combination, what
can I say? And so my co-authors, Cathy Albergo and Mark Rosinski, and I tried to find a unique
way in which to combine intervallic with multiple key and also naming the notes.
And so, many of the newer more contemporary methods have certainly tried to find new ways
of, again, getting the student and the teacher involved in building all of these areas, whether it's
note reading or whether it's intervallic. Ours begins intervallic. So, Celebrate Piano!, when we
first began the method, one of the goals was to bridge the gap that exists between an elementary
piano method and the standard, classical piano repertoire.
Kevin: Actually, you bring up a good point. So, there used to be a gap between all the different
piano methods and then one day transferred into the standard repertoire in piano.
Dr. Kolar: There can be, yes.
Kevin: Okay so, the same repertoire would be-
Dr. Kolar: Easy Anna Magdalena Bach, your easiest sonatinas. When we say standard
repertoire, I'm thinking of simple Beethoven sonatinas, the Clementi sonatinas, the easiest of
Burgmuller, which are more romantic type etudes and studies.
So yes, it was that often times when a student finished a method. And in the United States, we
still have many teachers who do not complete an entire method. Those of us that write methods
would like to see them continued. The whole idea with a set of piano books, whether it's my
method or anyone else's, is that we have also tried to gear, since the 1950s, both, again, Frances
Clark and Robert Pace were very devoted to musical concepts.
And so, in Celebrate Piano! we have tried to see that the student is involved in developing their
understanding through these musical concepts. So, that their reading and everything is working
together. So, we have this gap. So, the students sometimes don't complete a method before they
go into the standard literature, which means they haven't learned about triplets or they haven't
learned about sixteenth notes. That their first introduction to those is sometimes with the
standard literature, which creates a little bit of a gap.
Or, there can be very big differences in the technical elements. So for instance, I have usually
been a five finger position teacher, but as I had gained experience I saw that my students who
stayed pretty much glued to a five finger position had trouble moving out to Bach and
Magdalena because their hand wasn't prepared for all the movement. And so, it's those kinds of
concepts, whether it's physical movement, it's a rhythmic concept or whether they haven't
played scales and they're jumping in the repertoire with scales.
That again, what the method tries to do is prepare the student musically with all the concepts
and all the rhythms that they need to play in their classical repertoire, physically or technically,
so that they can easily play thumb under scales or a more arpeggio figure. And again, so all
these things are working together.
Kevin: I've definitely heard teachers that say that as a piano teacher, your goal is to get your
student away from piano methods as quickly as you can.
Dr. Kolar: And many do try to move their students quickly away.
Kevin: So, what would be the problem that might occur when that happens? You talk about the
gap. So, when it gets to new music, what happens because of that gap?
Dr. Kolar: It's a slower learning process and, really, it should be a seamless transition. So,
when I have transfer students who maybe only did two levels of whatever method, it means that
in two levels of a piano method usually it's largely eighth notes that they have covered. They
haven't covered any of the rhythms. So, I have to then make a much larger preparation or
presentation of activities with triplets, with sixteenths, when I start introducing those elements.
If they've only had two years of piano instruction, in many of our modern methods, they won't
have played an eight note major scale, and they won't have played a lot of thumb under. Which
means that then all of a sudden the movement of the hand is very difficult. What that does is
slows down the learning process, the transition from eighth notes and five finger position to
Bach that moves all over the keyboard and has a variety of different rhythms, is not only
technically challenging, it also can be musically and cognitively very challenging.
Kevin: So, with that gap there, what happens when a student gets to this standard repertoire is
that it's a lot of frustration in terms of a bunch of new things they have to all of a sudden learn
to be able to complete a piece.
Dr. Kolar: That's right. It can be very frustrating because it slows down the process. It means
that to learn that piece is harder, they stay on that piece longer. And, for a younger student to
stay on a piece for any length of time and to work it for a long time can become very boring
and will cut their motivation and practice and all sorts of things.
Kevin: So, it sounds like when you first started this is sounds like you guys took all the best
parts of the different methods from the beginning and you added it into the Celebrate Piano!
Method. Can you go into more details into how Celebrate Piano! Method bridges that gap
because you mentioned that too? How exactly does it bridge the gap between
the method and the standard repertoire?
Dr. Kolar: We were, first of all, very careful about making sure that we had all of the concepts
very carefully sequenced. And so, from the very beginning to the end, the student gradually
works from seconds to thirds to fourths to fifths, sixths, sevenths, octaves, so that then they are
looking at the span and the movement of the hand over a greater distance. That being one thing.
We carefully designed technical exercises that are just not five finger position patterns, but
where the student has to learn how to leap the hand or where the two hands need to work
independently. Which is one of the things that, in a lot of our methods where the left hand
particularly, plays a lot of block chords or just outlining of chords, that's another issue that if
we're moving into more #[ 0:16:59.5] music that we have in Bach, the left hand hasn't had
experience in anything other than playing block chords or slightly arpeggiated chords that are
not used to that movement. So, our technical exercises try to accommodate a different use of
the hand and preparation for things like leaps of octaves or patterns that you
might find at the cadence of Mozart or Bach.
The other thing we tried to do, was to integrate standard, classical repertoire into the actual
core method book. Now, many do. We tried to do it very consistently. So for instance, our very
first classical pieces occur already in the second level, which is earlier than a majority of the
methods. So, we do a lot of simple Turk pieces, Turk, Kabalevsky that are all presented in the
original format and in the original editing.
Kevin: Do some methods, is it not an original version?
Dr. Kolar: It can be an arrangement, right, of the original. It usually it will tell you that, but
certainly you as the teacher need to look. But often times, familiar themes are used or because
the piece might present a rhythm or a technical little skill in the original that the authors of the
method may feel is too difficult, they may take liberties with some of the original repertoire.
Kevin: So, they might simplify that particular rhythm?
Dr. Kolar: Yes.
Kevin: You said you paid a lot of attention to the sequencing of the concepts. Can you go into
more details about sequencing concepts and what benefits that has? Or, what might be
problems if concepts aren't sequenced correctly?
Dr. Kolar: For instance, again using the rhythm as an example, another area just to reinforce
the whole idea of concept that not only were we careful about the sequencing, but we really
were very careful about the amount of reinforcement. It's not an easy task to be a method
writer, and it's very easy to introduce a major chord or a dominant seventh, a five seven,
presented in a piece, and then leave it out for ten pages. Or, let's talk about time signature. We
can introduce two four, and then never see it again for fifteen pages.
So, the Celebrate Piano! co-authors attempted, very carefully, to trace that not only once it was
presented that it was consistently used in the repertoire in the book, but in also all the
accompanying activities that are in Celebrate Piano!.
When we say sequencing, in other words, once a second is introduced, that you wouldn't
necessarily just randomly jump to an octave because the student's hand has to be ready to make
that leap. So, it's finding ways in which you can sequence seconds, then thirds and then the
combination of seconds and thirds. Because reading the difference between what is a third and
what is a second and then seeing them combination, is also very important to the sequence.
When something tends to be left out or not reinforced in conceptual teaching, once again, the
student is going to start stumbling, and is going to become more frustrated because they don't
automatically pick up the process that's going on.
Kevin: You said Celebrate Piano! has a comprehensive method. Could you talk a little bit more
about all of the aspects that makes it comprehensive?
Dr. Kolar: We wanted to, first of all, have the students playing. Which every method does. So
that means, you do try to incorporate all of the repertoire that you can. And, we had the
advantage of our publisher decided to ask many composers, in all of North America, to write
pieces for us specifically. So, it's a variety of repertoire.
But, in addition to having the students play, we felt it was important for listening. So, one of
the unique elements about Celebrate Piano! is that we're divided into units. And so, every unit
has ear skills or ear activities to develop the students. Can they hear the second? Can they hear
the difference between a second and a third? Can they clap back simple rhythms that are given
to them? So, there's ear training in all of the units.
There certainly are technical components in every unit. So, reading, technique, ear skills. We
have rhythmic activities in every unit because rhythm is one of the first things that goes. So, a
student needs that constant diet of what time signature, how do we count this,
what do we do for the rhythm?
And then, another very consistent area in Celebrate Piano! is the creativity. All three of the co-
authors in Celebrate Piano! are very devoted to improvisation composition. So, every unit has
question and answers or creating a composition that might use whole steps or half steps or,
again, those seconds and thirds, or even telling very simple, creative stories in the beginning.
So, every unit through all four levels has creative activities as well. So, we want musicianship,
a whole other area. The area of theory. So, in every unit there's
several activities in music theory as well.
Kevin: I know because I use Celebrate Piano! to teach my kids, and I think one of the things I
tell parents that I like about it, obviously everything you said I also said. But, one of the things I
can tell them is, hey, this method you're going to buy two books. You've got the lessons and
musicianship book and you've got the solos book and the CD accompaniment. I think it's really
cool that everything you've talked about is just in one lesson and musicianship book as opposed
to maybe three, four, five different books. And, what I find with that is a lot of times when you
have four or five different books, parents start picking and choosing which ones they want their
kids to buy or to learn from. And, then first thing that they leave out is theory or they leave out
technique. They just want the pieces, they just want the lessons, and that's it. So, I think that's
one of the really cool things about the method.
So, obviously, there's lots of strengths. Is it possible, could you think of any weakness if you
had to pick one about Celebrate Piano! Method?
Dr. Kolar: Well, as a co-author you see different things that you would like to move around.
You, at all times, want more literature, so we do have a solos book that we try to incorporate
every-again that's related to the concepts and the ideas, the technical skills that are being
presented in the lesson in musicianship book. And certainly, one of the big questions that gets
asked, and I've been reflecting on it, is we felt that to get the students seeing the intervals,
because a lot of the current methods don't look so specifically at seconds and thirds and
develop the intervallic reading, and it is a key component. Now, you have to understand that's
not where I originally started as a piano teacher.
I started in a five finger, where we looked at skip and step. And, we weren't identifying well,
this is a line going to a space is a second, as carefully. So, my thinking has evolved in that
regard, and I see the importance of the intervallic.
A lot of teachers will ask, well, shouldn't they be reading their note names sooner? So, maybe
one of the things that my co-authors and I would love to do is to do more teaching videos so
that a teacher can see that they can start incorporating elements about note naming, possibly
earlier. But often times, when they do get to that part in 1B, they forget to name the notes. They
just continue to focus on the intervals, which is still key, but there are lots of activities that a
teacher needs to reinforce note naming at that point in time.
So, maybe I would see if there weren't activities and videos that we could create, that would let
the teachers see that certain note naming can start earlier and that isn't mentioned.
One of the things that I think my co-authors and I quickly learned is that you can't put
everything into a method book. And, I'm sure all of my good friends and colleagues out there
who've written methods would agree. You just can't say everything. You have to leave some
things up to the teacher. Because when we first started, there were too many words on our
pages. And if it's the children's book, you can't have that many words. And so,
it's always give and take.
Kevin: Yeah okay, cool. So, I think we can stop there for today.
Dr. Kolar: Okay.
Kevin: For the pedagogy #[ 0:27:46.0] talk about Celebrate Piano! Method and the piano
pedagogy field in general.
Dr. Kolar: Great, thank you.
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