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J: Good evening, everybody. Welcome to TheRealTailgate.com College
Football Hangout. This is a Google hangout, sponsored by Smithfield's
Chicken and Barbecue. I'm your host Big J Waldo. We have Ben Swain in our
Producer's Chair, and we have the folks over at Talking Moose Media on the
technical side.
You can join us every Wednesday, right here, live at 9:30 p.m., as
Ben, myself, and a rotating set of panelists discuss college football right
here in North Carolina. We'd like to thank our sponsors, Smithfield's
Chicken and Barbecue, and they want me to remind you, 'It's just not a
tailgate without the barbecue.' Log on to RealTailgate.com for special
offers, a list of locations, archived editions of this Hangout, and you can
download TheRealTailgate.com College Football podcasts.
This week, back again, the stalwart, the very post that supports our
formidable presence on the Internet, Ben Swain, from The Walk-ons. A
returning visitor, Brian Barbour, from Tar Heel Blog. Depressedly here,
J.P. Mundy, from SB Nations' Blogger So Dear. We also have our super-
special, last-minute fill-in guest, Joe Ovies from The Fan. We also have
Shawn Krest from The Bottom of the Pile podcast.
How's everybody doing?
All: Pretty good. Good, man. Good.
J: Hopefully you feel exalted, based on those intros.
Ben: Well, I didn't think your intro had focus. I didn't feel like there
was a lot of energy there. I think we need to have a players-only meeting
and talk this out.
[laughter]
J: Please, please. I'm dying for that kind of attention.
Brian: I mean, I think you guys are taking this too lightly.
[laughter]
Shawn: Personally I'm planning on getting some shots up after the
show, so I'm doing my part.
[laughter]
Joe: In the dark.
JP: I'm flying a banner over Waldo's house right now, saying 'Bring the
energy.'
J: 'Bring the energy.' All right, did everybody enjoy this weekend's
college football?
JP: No.
[laughter]
J: I did.
S?: Let me think about that a minute. No.
J: Okay, just Brian Barbour, the world's biggest, well no, just kind of
a UNC fan. I don't want to oversell you, especially right before you take
them to task over this performance against East Carolina. But it was, in my
opinion, a great game between two North Carolina football schools. What are
your thoughts, Brian?
Brian: I was thinking, 'This is why Carolina has no business playing
this game.' Because, you know, this sort of thing happens, and then you've
got to deal with all the ECU fans. I do take care that you all left the
goalposts intact. I'm very happy about that.
[laughter]
J: That's a rarity for East Carolina.
Ben: I heard they turned the scoreboard off right after the game, as well.
[crosstalk]
Brian: No, no photos. I'm surprised Steve Spur [sounds like 3:44]
didn't show up just to take the photo.
[laughter]
Ben: Hey, Brian, can I ask you a question about UNC?
Brian: Sure.
Ben: I was kind of thinking about this today and it struck me that, I
really do think this is true. UNC as a football program becomes more
interesting the more they lose, the more they win, they become less
interesting, because they never get off of that plateau where they're in
the nationally relevant field, right. But the more they lose, it keeps
coming up with that question of, 'Why are they not elite?'
All the pieces are there, and it just drives me crazy to think about
why UNC is in the lead. But, you know, you lose to ECU. This weekend
against Virginia Tech is huge. If they lose that game, that Miami game on
Thursday night becomes even more interesting. Am I wrong in that? Does UNC
become more interesting the more they lose?
Brian: I think it's become constantly a thing where, you know, you ask
that question, 'Why doesn't this work out?' And, you know, they had it
going under Mack Brown and then decide to listen to the players and give it
to Carl Torbush. They fire and hire him and fire three times, or something,
and then bring John Bunting in. And so it's been a decade in the desert.
So they go out and get Butch Davis, which, you know, immediately
ramps up recruiting. But he brings in John Blake and all the wrong sorts of
players, and they get in NCAA trouble. You know, there's a really big what-
if game you could play. What if the NCAA never shows up in 2010? And what
if that teams takes the field. Because, going into that season, before we
knew all hell was going to break loose, you know, we knew the defense could
be really good, but there were lots of questions. Well, can TJ Yates
[sounds like 5:37] be good enough?
Turns out, he was good enough. He was throwing for 400 yards, he cut
down the interceptions. So there was this big what-if that the pay-off was
going to come in 2010 and then the NCAA trouble happened. And so, now with
this process of they've got to rebuild the momentum. They've got to, you
know, they've got to pick up the pieces. And, you know, you're in this
weird transition year now, where they've got, most of their top-shelf
talent from three years ago is gone. The Class in 2012 wasn't very good.
He's got a good class last year. He's got a good class this year, but it's
just going to take some time to rebuild. And I'm betting once they get to a
point where they've got some traction, Fedora's going to get hired and go
somewhere else.
J: Did you just take us all the way back to Mack Brown?
Brian: Well, you have to. I mean, it's like knocking on seven ...
J: .. to Bob Stoops [sounds like 6:34], the way I understand it.
Ben: So you mentioned Fedora going somewhere else. Do you guys think he's
acting like a coach, right now, who's bothered by his team not playing
well? Or is he acting like a guy that is okay because he's got options?
Brian: No, I thought, when I turned on the press conference on Monday,
and I pulled a beer. He looked like a man beaten. He looked depressed. He
looked like he hadn't slept, but, then again, if you drink nine Red Bulls a
day, I guess you don't sleep much at all, as it is. But he just, there was
a different look for him, as far as like his energy level and the way he
usually presents himself. I really think he was really troubled by what
happened on Saturday, more than maybe he would be had they lost by a field
goal, or a touchdown, or something.
JP: Yes, he looked a lot like Jim Grobe did, you know, did on Tuesday, at
his press conference. You know, ACC fans, that's bad, if you can't figure
that out.
J: I tell you this ...
Joe: Am I the only one here who thinks we're kind of over-reacting to a
one-off, bad game from, he only reason why the East Carolina - North
Carolina game became what it is, is because East Carolina was the one doing
the beat-down. Brian, I think you would agree that if East Carolina wasn't
the opponent on the other end, and the same thing happens, say it's an out-
of-state opponent, we're not having the level of freak-out that we've been
having this week.
Brian: I think it would depend on the caliber of the opponent. If it
had been another Conference USA school that did that, it'd be a school. My
biggest qualms have been that the defense just played so badly. It was just
such a ...
Joe: Yes, but we knew that defense was going to be bad this year.
Brian: I know, but ...
Joe: It got worse from last year because they lost guys, and we know they
can't tackle, so what are we surprised by when it comes to the defense?
Brian: I think it was just the ease with which ECU did anything they
wanted. You know, it was just, it would have been one thing if they had
forced ECU to punt, you know, three or four times, and maybe you had seen
signs of like forcing some thirds and longs, or something.
Joe: Right.
Brian: But it was like the running back, whose name escapes me right
now, runs for 161 yards in three games, shows up and Kenyon [sounds like
8:53] run for 186 on 36 carries. It's like, 'Oh, my goodness!'
Joe: Vintanious [sounds like 8:58] Cooper hadn't really done anything. I
think he had rushed for 100 and, what? Close to 140 yards, I think, or
something like that every game.
Brian: 161 in three games, and then ...
Joe: Oh, okay.
Brian: Yes, I've got it, you know, this is all burned in my memory
now, from some, I'm watching this on phone and I look it up. I'm like, 'Are
you kidding me? Really?' But, it was just so bad, that there's just a sense
of, 'Are you good or what?' I mean they're going to make Logan Thomas look
like a first-round draft pick on Saturday, is what it feels like.
Joe: Well, Logan Thomas as still Logan Thomas, though.
Brian: He threw for over 300 against them last year. So, any notion
that he won't do the same thing?
Joe: Yeah, maybe not. It is at Virginia Tech, so what do you expect this
weekend, then?
Brian: Well, I ...
Joe: What do you want? What would make you happy, outside of a win?
Brian: Be competitive, I mean, just ...
J: In a debilitating, humiliating loss, what would make you happy?
Brian: I guess you just want to feel like they're competitive, feel
like they're doing some things right. Because against ECU they could do
nothing right. I mean, even Bryn Renner, who, remember way back when he
started his career? He went like, threw what? Like 30 passes without an
incompletion, or something. And now, he couldn't hit anyone. I mean he's
got, you know, he threw the touchdown to Nic Platt, I think he was throwing
it to someone else. And so, it's just this sense of everything going wrong
and it would be nice just to have some things go right. And you know, baby
steps, man, just, you know, don't get blown out, is how it feels at this
point.
J: We're going to do a group support session for Brian, here. And we're
going to go around the horn and everybody's going to say something positive
about UNC's performance. Shawn, give me one little crumb, something
positive about UNC on last Saturday.
Shawn: This is why I don't end up getting invited to interventions,
because I have nothing positive to say about UNC's performance on Saturday.
And the worst part is ...
J: Did they not earn at least the money, somehow?
Shawn: The worst part wasn't even what happened on the field. It was
that they've got a dumpster player in their locker room. You have AJ Blue
[sounds like 11:11] talking about people not being 100% ready. You have
Larry Fedora saying he was on the sidelines; it wasn't his fault. And then
on Monday, completely changing his tune and trying something different when
that didn't go over well.
And then today you've got the defensive coordinator saying that
nobody's listening to him and it's like fighting a heavyweight champion to
try and coach these guys. So no, I can't get in on helping out Brian.
J: Nothing.
Shawn: I'm sorry, Brian, but I can't go out on that ledge. There's
nothing good coming this weekend.
J: Wow. Joe, can you like give us the opposite end of that spectrum?
Because that was pretty far down in the depths there.
Joe: Hey, Military Appreciation Day looked pretty cool on Saturday.
Helmets looked good. I liked what they did with the end zone.
Ben: They shut down the [inaudible 11:56], Joe.
Joe: DJ Ford was one the ones and twos, again, so, I mean, that ...
J: Brian, is this making you ...
Joe: ... was good.
J: I was trying to spread a little love here, show a little love for you
and, well for you. And it doesn't seem to be going over too big. Should we
stop?
JP: Yes, we should talk about Wake. They're even more miserable than we
are.
Ben: Brian, that's what I was going to say is that the one good thing is
that you're not Wake. That's the one good thing that I could say.
Joe: The days of flying banners over Keenan are over.
JP: Knife to JP Clark.
Joe: Yes, it's all over at Wake, now.
S00: The Tailgate Special from Smithfield's Chicken and Barbecue. It's
eight pieces of chicken, a pint of barbecue, any two sides, two dozen hush
puppies, and a whole gallon of tea. Just go to RealTailgate.com for
details, coupons, and a list of locations that open early on game day.
J: JP, as a Wake fan, as a guy that covers Wake, give us your, like
don't go so far back as Mack Brown.
[laughter]
JP: I was going John Mackovic.
J: But what was your emotional state prior to the game, and how it
changed, like, quarter to quarter?
JP: See, that's the thing, I'm not so mad at the football, I'm kind of
mad at the expectations of the fan base as a whole. Because the question
I've been trying to get answered all week is, 'How did we get here?' Five
years ago, Jim Grobe and Ron Wellman were the toasts of the town, folks at
Arkansas were talking to Grobe. He was the number one coach, and all of a
sudden, he can't coach at all. There's so much anger. It's not that people
are just dissatisfied with the product, you know. It's pretty obvious,
we're working on five straight losing seasons, which shouldn't be
acceptable anywhere. But it's Wake Forest. You know, before he got there, I
think the historical winning percentage was somewhere around 200. And
Grobe's somewhere hovering around 500. At Wake Forest, that's pretty good,
but no, five straight losing seasons is bad. Now that's one part of it.
But the other part is that you've got so much anger coming from the
fan base right now. Somebody help me out here. I think it's misguided. So,
I'm not really upset with the product on the field. I think, there are
seven games left, they can get better. And if they don't, then the people
who hire and fire, you know, may make a change. It may be Grobe, it may be
just the offensive coordinator. Hint: It should be the offensive
coordinator. But, you know, what's got my dander up so much over the past
couple of weeks is just the level of hate and the personal attacks I see
against a guy who, guys, I don't think he's forgotten how to coach. I just
think he's just going through a rough season.
Joe: Yes, there's been a correction at Wake Forest football that just
happens to coincide with Wake Forest being in an ACC that's a heck of a lot
better in 2013, than it was back in 2006.
J: Mm-hmm.
Joe: That's not to say that the Demon Deacons didn't have a really good
team, or a stretch of good teams there, with actual NFL talent. But you
notice that Clemson and Florida State are, theoretically back, teams like
Wake Forest, traditional under-500 teams are going to have that correction
that goes along with it.
I think the anger that's going on in Winston-Salem, and I'm not any
sort of, you know, Wake Forest insider, by any means, but it just seems
that the opinion on Ron Wellman has been made. Very similar to what
happened at NC State with Lee Fowler. It didn't matter what happened, what
was going on, who was winning, who was losing, you were going to find ways
to guide your argument towards how this AD needs to go.
That's not to say that Ron Wellman doesn't deserve to go. I mean, how
basketball's been handled, from the death of Skip Prosser, has been pretty
bad. And Jeff Bzdelik still having a job after this whole business about
results being the reason why Dino Guadio was fired, doesn't really make a
lot of sense.
As I said, I don't think fans know how to place that anger for now,
so they're taking any means they possible can, with banners, and ads, and
everything else, to make an otherwise good argument against Ron Wellman
ridiculous to the point where it's coming back to them. It's coming back to
the, 'Wait a minute, you're Wake Forest. Why are you freaking out over
football dropping back a little bit? Relax.' That's where the big mistake
is, they're making such a spectacle of it that it's not about the actual
story about Ron Wellman, it's now about you.
JP: See, and what happens is, the most vocal part of the fan base listens
to what Joe says, and they say, 'Well, that's just the little old Wake
Forest speak.' Well, guys, little old Wake Forest is actually a real thing
when it comes to football. I believe that Wake Forest should and can,
absolutely, compete on a year-to-year basis on a national level. Not for
Final Fours, National Championships, but they should be more competitive in
the ACC basketball-wise.
Football, you've got a completely different animal. And, you know, if
Jim Grobe goes seven and five, every year, or five and, you know, until
when it's a couple of five and sevens, or whatever, you know, as a lifelong
resident of Winston-Salem, I'm going to go ahead and say, 'That's pretty
darn good.' But, you know, they've got this idea of little old Wake Forest
and now what happened in 2006 should be a more regular occurrence.
Ben: I think there are a lot of things at play here. First of all, let's
talk about Arkansas. So they've flirted with Grobe; they've flirted with
Butch Davis, and they went out and hired Bobby Petrino. And then we'll move
on to the next topic, I just wanted to point that out.
[laughter]
Ben: The second thing about Wake is, you know, you're spot on, you're spot
on, JP, in that the expectations are a little bit out of whack, from a
football perspective, right. You know, being around Duke football for a
long time, I fully understand that. Six wins is phenomenal. It's reason to
go out and have a parade, like some other schools have done in Raleigh.
SJoe: No, pep rally, Ben.
Ben: There was no parade?
Joe: No, there was no parade.
Ben: I remember a parade.
Joe: I was there. It was a pep rally.
Ben: But I think what's at the root of this, and what the boosters who are
spending all of this money buying ads in the News and Record during the EC
Tournament, or billboards on the side of I-40, or flying airplane banners,
they're perpetuating the image of Wake that they don't want. Because what's
getting out there is, 'Hey, we're Wake Forest, pay attention to us.' And
the story that gets out is, 'Guys, look at this ridiculous, tiny, little
school in Winston-Salem that thinks they're a football program.' That's the
story that's getting out. And they're going about it the wrong way.
They need to start paying players. You know, if the boosters want to
spend money, let's pay some recruits, get some better players in there. Get
some national attention that way, maybe get a multi-part SI special on
them. I think that would help out a little bit with the media.
[laughter]
Ben: Because the NCAA isn't going to do anything, right. So ...
JP: Oh yeah, this is the perfect time to do it.
Ben: So, if I'm a rich, RJ Reynolds tobacco man in Winston-Salem, I'm
paying high school players.
Brian: When's John Blake [inaudible 15:50] due up?
Ben: Does it matter? I mean, does it matter? Let's get him in now, right.
Brian: I mean, Butch Davis is probably about to be done in Tampa and
he's probably ready for a job. So, you know, bring Davis back in.
Joe: No, he's just waiting for that Buccaneers job to open up when Greg
Schiano finally gets canned.
[crosstalk]
Joe: Butch is in a great spot, right now.
JP: Is it just me, or does anybody else think, you know, they started
with the newspaper ads, and voiced their displeasure creatively during the
ACC Tournament. Then they put up a fire-whelming billboard on a remote part
of US 52, in June or whatever. It wasn't in season. And now they're going
to fly a banner on Saturday. And it just feels to me like it's just
something that they can, you know, do and like high-five each other after
it's done. It doesn't really do anything. Ben I think you made a point a
couple of months ago, on something I wrote that, 'What's the endgame here?'
And I don't know what the answer to that is.
Joe: Well it's pretty obvious that I'm going to send my kids to Wake
Forest, because they have disposable income at a time when everybody's kind
of suffering economic-wise. [laughter] They can just kind of roll out cash
for these billboards, and newspaper ads. And I'm guessing a flying banner
probably costs some money, too.
But, what's the endgame? We know what the endgame is. The endgame is
to draw attention to Ron Wellman and get him fired. They're just going
about it in a way that was, not even NC State fans did. NC State fans
usually get the knock for being the crazy fans. The ones who will swarm on
social media. The ones who will go nuts on sports talk radio, that kind of
stuff. The radio who will fire a guy in a heartbeat. I never saw an aerial
banner fly around Carter-Finley Stadium. I never saw a billboard that said
it was time to fire Lee Fowler, or Sidney Lowe, or any of that stuff. So
Wake is taking it to a new level. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. Go ACC!
JP: I never thought I'd see the day when it was the Pack Pride guys that
caused administrative change over at UNC, and it's the Wake guys who are
flying banners trying to get people out of Dodge.
Joe: But do you all taste that? Do you taste the delicious irony of what's
going on at Wake Forest, especially this weekend with NC State coming to
town? Because we're about five years removed from when NC State fans were,
specifically websites like StateFansNation, wrote long love letters to Ron
Wellman as an AD. Brian, you remember that.
Brian: Oh, yeah, that was hilarious.
Joe: I mean we're talking about Director's Cups and 'Ron Wellman's the
Man' and 'We need an AD with vision like that.' Huh, kind of funny how that
works out, about five years later.
J: Are these legitimate people?
Joe: No, probably not. If they were legitimate people, they wouldn't be
going to these means to get rid of a guy. All this stuff would be happening
behind the scenes, and Ron Wellman would be out of a job.
JP: Right. That's my thought that ..
Shawn: Shouldn't that airplane banner be kind of a guerrilla attack?
The thing that bothered me the most is that they're sending out press
releases saying they're going to do it. Because, I mean, how are you going
to make any kind of impact with this banner unless Jeff Bzdelik is flying
the plane, I don't see how the banner, itself, is going to make an impact
this weekend.
[crosstalk]
Brian: Yes, I got Tweeted at, I got Tweeted at with the Googles dot
justification for the firing of Ron Wellman. I'm like, 'Why are you
Tweeting at me? I don't care.'
JP: Yes, I talked to some guys over in the the administration over at
Wake Forest the other day. And the message boards all say, 'Oh, you know,
they're shaking in their boots.' And, they're not. There's nothing that
they can do. They don't care about this. You know, everybody already knows
that the basketball and football programs aren't doing well. This isn't new
news.
Ben: How powerful are they boosters at Wake?
JP: It depends. It depends. The real money guys are the ones that have
been behind Wellman this entire time.
Joe: They're racquetball buddies, just chilling.
J: I'm glad JP jumped in there, because when you said 'how powerful', I
all of a sudden thought 'weight-lifting'. And I didn't remember anybody
particularly, like, from Wake. But, you know, I could be wrong.
Ben: Hey, Krest, speaking of getting fired, how does Jim Knowles have a
job at Duke, still?
Shawn: Well, he told us that before the season, that the defense had
lost and that they weren't going to be able to compete with offenses this
year. So I guess because he was honest about it going into the season, that
they're giving him a little bit more rope.
Ben: Has he gone with the Bryn Renner, 'My hands are sweaty' excuse?
Shawn: I have not heard about hand sweat yet.
Ben: Okay.
Shawn: That was one of the best excuses I've heard in a long time, was
the hand sweat.
JP: Theoretically ...
Ben: Sweaty hands during a football game? Wow.
JP: Krest, I was just wondering, in two years, when Cutcliffe, you know,
doesn't get back to the Belk Bowl, or doesn't get back to a Bowl, do the
Duke fans turn on him, like Wake Forest fans have on Grobe?
Shawn: Well, that's what I was thinking about as you were going
through everything. Because Duke's pretty much two years behind Wake
Forest, right now. I think if the basketball team takes a downturn. If Kay
leaves and his replacement isn't up to the standards, then I think
Cutcliffe may be kind of collateral damage from that. But I think, like
Wake Forest, it's going to be anger over the basketball program that spills
over into football, that would cause Cutliffe problems. I don't think that
they would care that much about the football program, enough to bother
spending money on a plane.
Joe: There was something on Inside Carolina, not Inside Carolina, on the
Devils' Den, last season ...
Ben: Yeah.
Joe: ... when they didn't look, when they went on that tailspin. Weren't
the people like, 'Well, Cutcliffe's clearly taken this team as far as they
can go. It's time to go for somebody young. Bring some life in the
program.' Wasn't that happening on Devils' Den, Ben?
Brian: Yes, there were some message board crackpots, yes, who were
saying that on Devils' Den.
Ben: That's the point that I was about to make is that I think those guys
are there now. So this past weekend, at the Troy game, Duke is in a
stretch, over 85 minutes of football, they'd scored 90 points. And the fans
behind me were yelling at the offensive coordinator to get fired, because
they didn't like the play-calling. So you've got a faction at Duke who will
never be happy, because they are so conditioned to hate everything about
Saturdays. And then you've got the other faction that just doesn't care.
So, I don't think you'll see any change in attitude towards Cutcliffe. I
think it is what it is. I think you've got folks that hate him now, and I
think you've got folks who don't care. And, you know, quite honestly, who's
Duke going to get? Right? If Cutcliffe can't win at Duke, who can? So, I
think the AD is a little bit smarter than that, to go down that road.
J: Isn't that a question of money, Ben? I mean going back to a couple of
previous conversations on previous shows, I mean, isn't that just a
question of money? And Duke's got plenty of that, right?
Ben: What, to pay a big name to come in? Is that what you're saying?
J: Yes, I mean, they're not going to get Les Miles, or, you know,
whoever that guy is at Alabama. But, you know, to really shell out some
plans for somebody.
Ben: I mean, they're paying Cutcliffe what? Close to $3 million Shawn?
Shawn: Yes.
Ben: Something like that. So, I mean, they're paying that money now.
They're not going to pay somebody. They might get Lane Kiffin on the cheap,
right?
J: Well when bad gamblers get in that situation, they double down.
Ben: $6 million?
Brian: I hope they don't hire Lane Kiffin, because I would hate for
him to be left at RDU.
Ben: That's a nice airport, though, now. It's a nice place to be ...
J: It's not walking distance to anything, though. That Outlet Mall out
there is not worth visiting.
Brian: I can see Lane Kiffin wandering down the lonely road, not
knowing where to go.
Joe: You know, it would be a strip mall worth visiting, if Smithfield's
Chicken and Barbecue was there.
Group: Ooh.
J: Smithfield's Chicken and Barbeque is our sponsor, you may not be
welcomed back, Joe.
Joe: Just saying, might want to move it a little closer to the Triangle.
J: They have stores in Wake Forest, [inaudible 27:42] Marina.
Joe: That's right.
Ben: So if Smithfield's moves there, then Lane Kiffin would come coach in
the ...
Joe: Seriously.
J: Duke could double down. I wonder if that's what gets Duke to a like
five-year run of 500 plus seasons in football. Would they kick-down for a
Smithfield's?
Ben: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I tell you what, the advantage that Duke
has ...
Joe: Think of the recruiting opportunities.
Ben: The advantage that Duke has, that Wake doesn't, is Duke is in the
Coastal. And they don't have Florida State, Clemson, and then next year,
Louisville. They don't have to face those guys. So that's one thing that is
really going against Wake right now. Joe alluded to this, is the upswing,
not just of the League, but of the Atlantic. You know, even next year,
getting even better with Louisville coming in.
JP: Yes, but Greensboro does have a Smithfield's now, so that should give
us a recruiting advantage over any team in the Coastal.
Joe: Over Syracuse, for sure.
Ben: Huge.
[laughter]
J: Yes, I can't imagine. Well, you know, Smithfield's, maybe Syracuse,
New York, is hankering for a Smithfield's.
Joe: Man, those hush puppies will keep you warm in the cold winter. Just
saying.
Ben: I don't think they 'hanker' in Syracuse.
Joe: No, probably not.
Ben: No.
J: They don't hanker?
Ben: No.
J: They don't feel that strongly.
JP: Not up there.
J: They don't feel that strongly?
Ben: No.
JP: They mainly just complain about their football team.
Joe: Isn't that the overall point, though, is that nobody is immune to
this. You could go to any fan base in the country. No matter how small the
school size might be, and you talk to a couple of people, and they'll be
upset. The difference now between ten years ago is that that vocal minority
has more outlets to complain. Used to be that they most damage you could
do, about 10 or 15 years ago, was to write a letter to the editor. You were
at the control of an editor to select your one letter. And then sometimes
they would just post it to calm you. And then you had ...
J: Even, though, even then, though, it was, you know, you got three
letters.
Joe: Yes.
J: Two of them are from guys who are saying, 'It's okay.' and the other
guy is ranting. Which one are you going to publish?
Joe: You're going to publish the one that's ranting.
J: Yes, the squeaky wheel.
Joe: So, I mean, you've got that, and then, okay, you have the coaches
shows. If the coaches shows were smart, they'd screen out the lunatic
callers. Occasionally ones would get through. Steve Logan had incredible
lunatic callers who would call on the East Carolina show, back in the day.
I remember those vividly, because I was running the board for them as a
part-timer.
At one point in time, NC State used to take phone calls on their
show, but then, there was somebody who yelled 'Pack your bags' to Tom
O'Brien early on. 'We don't want you! Pack your bags!' They stopped taking
phone calls. I mean, the outlet for these types of things was very limited.
Sports talk was at a point where nobody took it all that seriously. It was
just kind of these, one of these. They don't take it seriously now, but it
was even worse 10 to 15 years ago. But now, with message boards, and
Twitter, Facebook campaigns, Google hangouts, and everything else, you can
highlight these people a lot easier. And then, you know, people like Ben
and Shawn, who live on Twitter all day, just like me, they'll tell you
easily that it's a vacuum. I mean, it's just this little bubble where
everybody gets all worked up. And the actual outcry isn't as big as you
probably think it is, once you log off from Twitter.
JP: Yes, I mean I think that the Wake Forest fan base pretty much all
agrees on the same thing, basketball is screwed up. It probably has a lot
to do with Ron Wellman, you know. Football's not doing well, but we've got
a faction that just seems to want to have the loudest voice. And that's not
unique to Wake Forest, as you said. You know, everybody's got one.
Shawn: Who logs off of Twitter?
Joe: I do, occasionally.
J: Can you?
Joe: Yeah.
J: I thought it came to your phone and stuff, I mean.
Brian: All I know is I'm glad to have a block button, for all these
people that tweeted me. So, I can just, you know, get them off my timeline.
J: So we've spent the last three or four minutes shooting down
customers, social media, and fans. Holy mackerel.
Ben: Success.
J: I think the Twitter handle you want to deal with, people, is
RealTailgate. You need to go straight to them. RealTailgate. I think
they're equipped to handle all questions and concerns.
Brian: And complaints.
J: And they love interacting with the public.
JP: I've got a question for Joe, actually. Joe, what is your, you know,
from a 30,000 foot level, what do you think the influence of message
boards, like Inside Carolina and the Pack Pride, and the OG [sounds like
32:36] boards, how much influence do they have these days?
Joe: Probably just about as much influence as they had five years ago. Or
as much influence as you might have with Twitter or e-mail campaigns.
Anyhow, I think it's just too easy to get caught up in, I mean, I see, I'll
go to the message boards. I've made no secret about the fact that I go to
message boards. I've been doing it for ten years. It's the same people
posting. It's the same 10 to 15 people in a thread, going back and forth,
and you have a lot of lurkers. But those lurkers are just checking it out
for amusement purposes, or just to kind of get a vibe as to what's going
on. As far as actual interaction goes, on message boards, it isn't that big
of a deal.
J: I have a bizarre tie-in, here, okay?
Joe: Okay.
J: And I don't mean to throw anybody under the bus, but my father-in-law
is a graduate of Virginia Tech and a veteran of the Armed Services of the
United States of America. And I have a lot of respect for him. He is
addicted to Virginia Tech football message boards, and it directly
influences his decisions on how much money to spend on the program. I am
not joking. I don't think he would deny it even. It's not a joke. To him,
that's very serious.
Joe: Look, sports does crazy things to otherwise smart people, and message
boards are a part of that. But, the real movers and shakers are the ones
who actually donate a ton of money, you know. It wasn't until, like at NC
State specifically, until Wendell Murphy finally signed off on certain
things not to happen, that you start to see some change. I mean that's the
stuff that matters.
J: So there's like four people influencing that.
Joe: Yes, I mean isn't that true of just about any walk of life?
Brian: But what about the people e-mailing ...
Joe: Do you not believe in the Illuminati? C'mon, man. Just a small group
of people calling all the shots.
J: I'm trying to jazz this thing up, but holy mackerel.
Joe: I just went there with Illuminati.
J: I can't even spell Illuminati.
Ben: You know what though, guys, we do have an example here in our area,
of a message board getting a coach fired. Right?
J: That's true.
Ben: We're talking about Butch Davis getting fired because of the NC State
message boards.
Brian: Yes.
Joe: Well, I don't know. I don't know.
J: Actually, Butch Davis got fired because he was dirty.
Joe: Butch Davis got fired because, at the end of the day, things got a
little too, a little too salty between him and Holden Thorp, not because of
a message board.
Brian: Yes, that was Holden Thorp ...
Ben: So, if Pack Pride never finds the plagiarism, is that saltiness
there?
Joe: What, between Holden Thorp and Butch Davis?
Ben: Yes. No.
Joe: That's all kind of, you've got to remember that not too long before
he got fired, about a week before he got fired, the tipping point was
because of a scholarship offer to his kid.
Ben: Right.
Joe: Not because of MacAdoo [sounds like , or anything like that. And let
the record show that Holden Thorp actually has a secondary violation under
his name, which Davis doesn't have any. You know, I just want the record to
state that. No, If North Carolina had to do it all over again, knowing what
they know now and the way the NCAA handles itself ...
Brian: Yeah.
Joe: ... you know how the SEC goes about their business? If they were
smart, Butch Davis would probably would have still have been the head coach
during that time. But they got so spooked about their reputation, the
academics, and the agent business, and everything else, that they just
started having to cut everything off. We saw *** Vedore [sounds like
36:19] early retirement. We saw Butch Davis, gone, torched a year. And then
eventually Holden Thorp had to go find another job where he doesn't have to
worry about sports. So, good for him.
Brian: Well, even before that, 'Oh, let's open everything up and let's
go look in every corner there is.' And like, no, no you just, you make it
about Marvin Austin and Greg Little, and that's the end of the discussion.
Joe: Hey, 'Robert or Quinn, hand your phone over.' Shall you. You think
they do that over at Alabama?
Brian: No.
Joe: You think they do that at any other SEC school?
Brian: Or ...
Joe: Big Johnny Manziel was told by the school, 'Hey, Johnny, can you open
up your bank account?'
BO: Yes, it just got to a point where their need to protect their
reputation overwhelmed their sense of, 'Hey, you know what, we could
probably block these guys if we're just smart about it.' They were so
scared of not co-operating.
Ben: I've heard, but how lucky are we that they opened up Marcus Paige's
locker, though? Right.
[laughter]
Ben: They were looking at Marcus Paige's locker.
Joe: PJ, Harrison should not be joking around at this time. You really
shouldn't.
Brian: I can't, I can't ...
Joe: This is a serious time, right now, at Carolina. The image is gone. He
shouldn't be making jokes. He should be sulking in a corner thinking about
what he did.
Ben: He's not learned his lesson.
Brian: You know what, I can't wait for the first, you know, like when
he goes like three for twelve, or something, and misses five threes ago.
Well, if he'd have been practicing, instead of playing practical jokes on
Marcus Paige he wouldn't have this problem.
[laughter]
Brian: I think we're off the rails [inaudible 37:53], what do you
think?
J: All right. Guys, I want to make sure everybody's said their piece,
here. I don't want to cut anybody off. Especially, you know, anybody who
wants to say anything positive about Saturday's performance by UNC's
football team. Anybody.
JP: I thought that it was a great job by Carolina to fill up Keenan
Stadium. Even though there must have been a color problem on the television
I was watching, because it was a darker shade of blue-ish purple. It might
have been the TV.
J: It started emptying about 12 minutes in, too, I think.
Shawn: The referees only allowed one play to be run after the quarter
had expired, so that's pretty good.
[laughter]
Brian: Yes, Ben and I were talking about that. He was clearly pulling
for that to be a touchdown, so whatever decision got made after that was
going to *** somebody off.
J: Yeah. All right.
Ben: I've got one quick parting shot, Waldo.
J: Okay, go ahead. We're going to wrap it up. We're going to do parting
shots. We'll start with you.
Ben: I'm talking to you, Syracuse. You play Clemson this weekend. You know
what to do. Do the right thing. Think about it. Go ACC.
J: Disgraceful. Brian Barbour. Brian?
Brian: I'm all out, man. I'm done. I'm just going to be depressed
every year about, you know, giving up 60 points to Logan Thomas on
Saturday.
J: Wow, depressed about future events, that's brutal.
Brian: Why be depressed about the past when you can be depressed about
the future?
J: I guess, you know. There's bound to be an optimist-pessimist thing
there, somewhere. JP, parting shot?
JP: Coach Doeren, North Carolina State has not beaten Wake Forest in
Winston-Salem since 2001. There's nothing that you can do about it. Philip
Rivers came here. TOB came here. It doesn't matter. You can wear red shoes.
It's going to happen. Acceptance is the key to progress. Have a good trip.
J: Wow, strong words, strong words. Joe, can you give us like a sort of
semi-short parting shot?
Joe: No.
J: Okay, Shawn Krest, I'm just kidding. Joe, seriously, give us
something to go out thinking about, before we go out.
Shawn: You didn't ask for it. You didn't ask for it. Here's something
positive for Wake fans. With the government shutdown, Wake Forest will have
the only fly-over this weekend.
J: That's brutal.
That's good, though. That's funny. That's funny. All right, guys. A
big thank you to everybody, our guests, and especially our sponsors. Again,
I want to remind you, 'It's just not a tailgate without the barbecue.' Make
sure you go the the Real Tailgate website, at RealTailgate.com. You can get
the College Football podcasts there. You can also get it at TheMESH.tv. You
can also get it at iTunes. I'm your host, J Waldo. I had to think about
that for a second. For Smithfield's and Ben Swain, our producer, thanks,
good night. We'll see you next week.
SOO: The Tailgate Special from Smithfield's Chicken and Barbecue. It's
eight pieces of chicken, a pint of barbecue, any two sides, two dozen hush
puppies, and a whole gallon of tea. Just go to RealTailgate.com for
details, coupons, and a list of locations that open early on game day.
SO: TheMESH.Tv, an online network of original, free audio and video shows
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watch through iTunes, or through the website, TheMESH.tv.