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>>Ankerberg: Let me ask the President of IANS here and that is that youíre collecting all
these experiences. If now that some of these bad experiences that are coming out, the hellish
experiences, if they even out and they come more and more and more, what conclusions as
a researcher do you think itís proper to make? Letís say it gets to be half and half
here, okay? Would you put out a warning?
>>Bush: My position is, yes, there is data that doesnít quite fit into any of the boxes
weíve got available. Youíre not wrong in your conclusions about the need for salvation,
the fact that desperately, difficult, painful hell-like things can happen at death. But
I think itís more complicated than simply saying, ìOkay, here is a proof text and if
you donít meet these criteria, youíre out of the ball game.î
>>Weldon: I would have to disagree with you in one sense....
>>Bush: Oh, Iím sure.
>>Weldon: ...and that is, I really do think that in many cases it is a lot clearer.
>>Bush: See, what youíre missing, you all say, ìWell, but they come back and they say,
ëThereís no judgment. Salvation for everybody. Cupcakes all around.íî I donít know an
experiencer who is as glib and sugar-coated as you are making them sound.
>>Weldon: Oh, gosh. So many of them no longer fear death at all. And yet theyíre not saved
and so thereís a reason to fear death.
>>Bush: But the fact that they....
>>Hunt: In your own document here, Nancy, it says, ìIím not afraid of dying anymore,
but itís real important to me to be alive.î Thatís what you say. Youíre not afraid of
dying. That was the primary lie of the serpent to Eve. ìThere is no death. Donít worry
about it.î
>>Bush: Youíre giving me proof text right? And what Iím asking is, what does it mean
to the experiencers when they say this? Can these in some way cast more understanding
on our understanding of what it means to be Christian than simply to throw proof text...
>>Weldon: Itís more than proof text. Itís a matter of what is your authority of religious
faith?
>>Hunt: See, thatís a derogatory for you: a proof text. Do you despise the Bible? Is
it not legitimate to use the Word of God?
>>Bush: Oh! John!
>>Langley: Sheís not saying anything....
>>Weldon: Well, if the Bible is the Word of God and it can be interpreted in a normal
sense and has certain conclusions in terms of doctrine....
>>Bush: I am not using proof text in a derogatory term. Iím saying....
>>Hunt: Sounds like it.
>>Langley: No sheís not.
>>Hunt: What do you mean?
>>Bush: What I am hearing is that it gets these arguments, these experiences, get reduced
to a very simplistic level. What I am saying is, I cannot pretend to read the mind of God.
My function as a researcher is to collect the data...
>>Rawlings: But your authors didnít do that. Your authors...
>>Bush: Your function as representing....
>>Rawlings: ...each one has come to a conclusion way out....
>>Bush: Theyíre not my authors. They speak for themselves. They speak for themselves.
>>Rawlings: The President of IANS has foreworded New Religion of Omega where everyone goes
to heaven.
>>Bush: Oh, Maurice.
>>Rawlings: Sure he has. Itís in his book.
>>Bush: Thatís not an IANS religion.
>>Rawlings: He is the representative at that time.
>>Hunt: Nancy, let me interject something...
>>Bush: Oh, good gracious!
>>Hunt: Nancy, must I wait to know what the Bible says, whether thereís a heaven or hell
or where weíre going, must I wait until the researchers come to some conclusion?
>>Bush: Of course not.
>>Langley: Of course not. Youíre all being so silly.
>>Hunt: Well, is it not legitimate to come to a conclusion based upon Godís Word or
based upon Jesus Christ?
>>Bush: Godís Word says what we need to do, in whatever terms you put it. Howard, help
me, because Iím not going to use the ìrightî words...
>>Ankerberg: Okay,...
>>Bush: We need to do our inner work....
>>Ankerberg: ...the one guy thatís really had the experience here. letís leave him
with the last word. And I think everybody thatís listened to this program, I think
our mind boggles. I mean, you stand out here in terms of, hereís a university professor
that doesnít believe in God, doesnít believe anything, and has this shocking experience.
The question is, what should this experience mean to all of us that are listening?
>>Langley: Can we each say a sentence?
>>Ankerberg: Sure. Letís start with Howard here.
>>Storm: Iíd like to say that, based on my experience, I found God to be tremendously
good and loving and forgiving and that God has tried to know us in an intimate and personal
way and has revealed Godís self to us in that wayóin a specific, historical event
that has been carried through the generations in spite of persecutions to this present day
through the Church. And that is Godís greatest gift to us, an enormous gift of Godís heart
was His Son given to us and that truth and knowledge carried through us, despite all
kinds of persecution, through the Church today. And God is speaking to you because God wants
you to be in heaven. Thatís Godís gift and I pray that you all might find it in your
hearts the ability to trust the gift.
>>Ankerberg: Okay. June, quickly. One sentence here.
>>Langley: Whatever gets you through the night, accept. Be a good person to yourself and to
others. And God bless you all.
>>Ankerberg: Maurice? One sentence.
>>Rawlings: Yes. Is it safe for me to die? Which religion am I going to take? Or am I
going to research the Bible moreódoes it need more research before I believe it?
>>Ankerberg: Okay. Nancy?
>>Bush: Iíll echo Howard.
>>Ankerberg: Okay. Dave?
>>Hunt: Iíve come to know Jesus Christ personally. Itís the passion of my heart to tell everyone
the good news that they can know Him. That He died for their sins and they can receive
eternal life as a free gift. But I believe those who reject Him, however, they reject
Himówhether itís through creation; their conscienceówhatever it is, theyíre lost.
>>Ankerberg: John?
>>Weldon: I think our culture needs to have more of an understanding of the category of
ìspiritual warfare.î But to close on a positive note, Iíd like to quote Jesus Himself. He
said, ìFor God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever
should believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.î