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uh... your p_c_ in uh... the american prospect uh... as weak as we speak uh...
i've mentioned uh... that um... there's about fifteen thousand people
protesting outside of
of the state house in lansing michigan uh... for a vote on that uh... seems to
be more or less a foregone conclusion it's not clear whether or not uh... uh
governor schneider will actually sign this but he's given all indications of
that he will
so let's let me just
let's start with uh... the premise of your peace
uh... well lakshi let's start with what is a so-called
albright to work state
uh...
uh... right-to-work estate date back to a concept came into effect here the
passage of the nineteen forties seven taft-hartley act
which is probably abh
one of the fire if its most important domestic policy
uh... pieces of legislation twentieth-century right behind medicare
and social security and and obama karen and maybe a few others
basically what
what what like to work did section fourteen p of the bill
it to permit
too
to in effect not in the fact that
allowed workers
not controlling union
and the condition of of employment but not only that
not only not to join the union but also not the pain of the union
what's called an agency fee
uh... which compensates the union for representing the work
because the worker
will still
being from the that bit preview rebuilt katie collective bargaining agreement
unit they're not only
right and we're not talking about and social benefits that because
is uh... one union shop raises the wages for workers there that other nonunion
shops of will feel on upward pressure on uh... on on wages but literally those
people who are working alongside uh... union members who are paying dues
uh... the negotiations and
uh... the concessions that uh... the unions get from the uh... from
management are
uh... our benefits that everyone shares
brett direct benefit
will basically that
but they'd been the man or woman excuse is paying union dues
uh... and and and and and get and purple and getting a service
for that
uh... and you're not paying you reviewed that you're getting
became services whether increase safety and health
uh... regulations which might prevent you from moving away
or increased wages increased uh... health care benefit
it better that before nineteen forty captain
entire country
based upon uh... the national labor relations act of nineteen thirty-five
pat had what's called close
what basically you you joining me about the condition of employment
just add you if your employer hired you for perceptive start eight before
you you uh... at the condition of employment throughout the show up at
eight o'clock
not at noon or two o'clock in the afternoon
but that was made
it by they
uh...
applauded it
uh... after the taft hartley act of forty seven
applied
uh... the you you've just the sort of outlined
einon important dynamic there because
uh... we are sold this notion uh...
uh... the so called the right to work uh...
allies as being you know enhancing worker freedom
uh... but it's only comes at the expense of workers in general as opposed to
you know the idea of all let's expand worker freedom to where they can set
their own hours uh...
you know they that in other words
let me just uh... wade into this a little bit because i think is very
important for people to understand because i think it's one of the biggest
misconceptions and the most sort of arbitrary arguments uh...
of the libertarian ilka
of the conservative mind if you will
yet bluntly
uh...
approx and it gets a crock that
soup that
that the public mixed metaphors
hidden behind a bright very high-minded
uh... argument about economic freedom that the libert
that libertarians make you'll find it on the national right-to-work foundation
uh... which is predicated if you can actually provides a lot of very
beautiful objective factual information about court decisions about the right
that workers to have
depending on what state they're in a traitor center
but basically the claim is that
well districts where workers for him because you know your your good your joe
josephine working show up to working income
suddenly the it
u_n_ officials in your face ten k
without doing the union
there's all kinds of things that you have to do
at work
yet that's why i all of us every employee in the country
uh... get consulate of flight
worker employer handbook
with six points and what their employer wat
fun and what to expect from them and i think they can do and and they think
they can do
employers and not allowed to discriminate based on essence of who you
are meaning whether you are
uh... of the race they don't like worry a gender they don't like
but they are
they off-highway altitude they picked up the pretty much uh...
you know anglo-american law going back a long way that
set the terms and conditions of employment
if it gets another term and condition of employment the differences
if agreement that's been made between i'd union
anti employer
uh... just at that time in conditioning not exclusively a term and condition
step by the employer
uh...
excel and that the back the fear that people have occurred in fact that might
in a new team will be more power in the next and the next step that aren't his
course well of course d uh... the management can set the
certain conditions 'cause they're the ones who are paying the workers abut
dean of the workers are getting uh... benefits from the context
of unions negotiating so they've been then that is actually greg heater that
significant exactly and what do you want worked up
which impacted the difference between a right-to-work state in an arm right to
work
you know it eight big government even permit
the workers if they you know unlike
the the union
politics
you know they'll doorways supporting democrats or whatever you know i'm not
gonna support that
but ok uh... i'd get it i'd have to pay sound
the compensate the unique representing me
uh... uh... and and and gaining the benefits yet collective bargaining
went to work at the event will be played out in michigan at this
it's finally implemented and any other twenty-three states where it is
jumping into anything
of looking at the representation
so yet right it is what's called
uh...
the free rider pro right and so it's not and they know where people should be
clear here that this is not just simply saying you don't have to join the union
it means that you have to pay a lesser fee in terms of of uh...
compensating the union for the work they're doing on your behalf in which
you are gladly accept ending you know uh... you're not going to see you
workers say
i've now that i uh... my uh... you know now that i uh... this is a right to work
i don't have to pay that fee i'm not going to take
the benefits
that the union has negotiated on my behalf
and it's like uh... ten fifteen percent less intake i'm gonna have a of crap
your pension or no pension i'm going to work on the most dangerous machines that
exist on the on the floor uh... back that that uh... you know aren't expected
on a regular basis eccentric center this if if this was going to be if we're
really going to um... a play by those rules you would have to see those
workers
those uh... uh... process that an act impact
and in fact in michigan uh... at at despair at that moment but that may
change by the end of the day
uh... and and any other but not like to work space
in fact you already have that right you simply have to pay
again with colby a_t_t_ board which will be less
by definition than what we paid human being
because but you're not a lot so
uh...
saying what we're going to you know
uh... sustaining the union's political problem
or a community outreach program or anything else that the union does with
its revenue base in and and its budget you only pay for your
collective collective bargaining
and so uh...
um... and we know
there has been mean it's it's very difficult thing to measure particularly
at a time when we have such a low
uh... rate of unionization in the
uh... months private workers in this country
uh... but point nine percent which is
which is the lowest it's been
gets around nineteen
uh... so it's pretty fun
right in the hopes that the western world that's what we've been world uh...
the principal pretty low
low-grade also but it important to know that even though the front of a a
low-grade
that union do negotiate a collective bargaining agreement for almost ninety
percent of french workers anyway
so
you know they their they're covered and that you've got a lot of powerful
but not here in united states
and we also know from the limited data that's out there that you right-to-work
states
tent have lower wages they also tend to have more worker injuries and worker
deaths um... because there is a less protection for them and so
you quit with uh... with the with all of that
uh... why is what's happening indexing
worse than what happened in wisconsin
when i can pick up a couple of reasons
uh... one is that
it covers the entire work force
uh...
uh... at this point in time in the united states public sector workers are
as we were just imply much more much more
potent a force and much larger force and private-sector workers
there about thirty thirty five percent of public sector workers are
or in the union contract
and that's what we've covered in wisconsin
yep there was no effort that to uh... to make uh... wisconsin right-to-work state
for private sector workers
uh... haircut
and private-sector workers even in their currently
atrophied
condition
at at at all uh... labor union force
or or dripping which drives
uh...
economic changes
for the work place is a whole twenty two eight w would were uh... at its peak
in the fifties and fifty
it set like contracting and its way to benefit standard
uh... itni unite steelworkers well all kinds of non nonunion
employers
i think that that helped build the american middle-class note in those
packet so
at target directly
uh... private-sector workers
uh... beyond the public sector efforts and say with consummate worked hard help
is but dramatically
different saying annotated actually a dramatically different thing
in in the in the park place united oracle autoworkers
which really
really was
the most important
powerful and had carmarthen for american prospect the other day
but that
american union
uh... of the twentieth century so they don't pay the barrier boxeight iv
kind of symbolic
to through this changing possibly changing in michigan well just give us a
little history of the u_a_w_'s role
both
empowering workers across the country but also and i think um... you know your
piece uh... points this out abhi u_a_w_ also played eighty
very
strong of role
or in social change in this country
yeah absolutely
i mean i i mean uh... on on the prestige of empowering workers i mean anyway
don't you
followed the growth of
of what was called by from the forties economy asking for motor company but it
also meant or the other
automobile crate automobile companies but the the manufacturing
uh... uh...
spearhead
of the year of the entire u_s_ economy as those at those companies grew
workers felt empowered and from buried
bloody
brutal
militant
action
as militant imposters again any advance western world
they organized of company
uh... in the mid third
when they were denied both companies
that organization again office
office break too
to feel to robert to to to electric companies throughout the entire
manufactured based and could be factory
economic change that i just alluded to earlier
but anyway that was more than just like eight
me first labored it it's sought self especially uh... through the eyes of the
uh...
really remarkable
uh... president walter reuther
and add the at an institution to advance social justice
uh... united states more generally
growth will win
militantly and racist
what racism in his own in his own union
uh... was webpage won't support of the civil rights movement at a time when
amendment right or not
uh... was work worked uh... directly in closely with dr king that behind him
uh... you can see in in the in the grainy photos and and and uh... video of
doctor king given his uh...
i have a dream speech in august nineteen
fifty three in washington behind him
worth also you know uh... uh... uh... you know under sporting helped uh...
isabella blistering for democrats society in the nineteen fifties like
that that the quarantine based on the left i mean it
the port huron statement the founding document of that group
was written at a u_a_w_ own uh... campground
in in michigan that wasn't at that point
back that
that wasn't a total renting out the campground that was like going to to a
progressive group
but by they've been a sniff the air force into with
who it is important
uh... roster toward the end of his life he died nineteen seventy welcome finally
came out against vietnam war
which was which was also very important break within the labor movement and
within the broad american liberal left there was d
he had to take the combat at that doctor king because they are
they've both worked closely with with lyndon johnson and wanted to maintain a
good working relationship with them
uh... but he did he do that as well
uh... even spoke out very early like fifteen on my maybe early seven before
he died about about environmentalists
uh... which is something that you didn't hear and manufacturing uh...
manufacturing groups unions or employers talked about what
template incredibly important
organization it out of business in america labor movement in in the history
twenty century america
you know it's it's it's especially interesting to me because i i i wasn't
really aware of uh...
reuter's rule
all in the u_a_w_'s role
all in that aspect of it because one of the things that
uh... people have been writing about over the past couple years is the
uh... developed between unions and
the social liberal left
uh... around that time in the early seventies which in some ways
the e created a sort of a
a cycle of weakening
the union support and strength within the democratic party and then the
democrats not um...
supporting units and he decided that
uh... in many respects that was
beginning
of the and of union strength because
um... unions became alienated from
that the social left i guess uh...
gene yet
that that's right
uh... you know you had a potentially
uh... split between on one hand
don't i mean i
but there's no other way from the white working-class anything especially
institutions even at that time when you get thirty percent density in the work
force
in private sector
in the private sector the quote that i felt like seven percent now
don't really matter
what and it was a real political
economic and political weight
to what you thought
and like the merging
emerging new uh...
uh...
progressive formations of the fifties and early seven feminism
i think they wait movement
uh... pith helmet spent the african the african-american movement in civil
rights movement
uh...
now but within that
will be so the portly labor and variety
i think because a lot of it it is the kind of photos social cultural anxiety
toward even *** group
that a lot of americans and of course we note
today a lot of americans share
they witnessed what women want
um there were more uh...
progressive unions that was sympathetic
for these groups part of it had to do with like their own membership there are
membership might be more
female african-american like the pup like the public sector like awsome
en route thirty below
there were a lot of
white guy in the auto workers
they walked a lot of african american banking on the workers
and it was first sort of
you know point that
and you know we've got the people of different
when he became president of the ueda you know
it became thought that
the u_a_w_
should be broadly speaking
and an organization that that the famed sort of social justice
um... so there was a conflict between afew evening
on one hand come from
whose reported
even merchant
uh... social movements in the fifties and early relief at this
uh... and others
but some of the building trade unions
uh...
uh... without and parchment like the overall umbrella group the a_f_l_c_i_o_
it george meany you know painlessly
something like you know the antiwar demonstrators like
meaning the mailing q with demonstrators you know looked looked look he did
attract
through who look like children's smell like john
right first meeting between market
in my you know in nineteen fifty-nine yourself
that there was a split but there was also like a push back against explain
within labor and that
you know that should be
should be recognized and understood as well
that the
uh... that we we see this implemented in michigan and the
the implications
are going to be that i mean there there's there's a obviously
aside from just the implications in michigan um...
what artist a little bit about
where you see the the union's uh... going where within the future but before
we get there would have
thank you know you quoted a a glaze he has said that leases in your piece
about the sort of the the
the truths more elapsed between uh... right-to-work states so-called
right-to-work states and states that uh... allowed essentially unions to have
measure of parity in in entering a contract with
with management
uh...
is that what we're well
happens now politically and the
whitworth we saw some uh... michigan uh...
members of the uh... house delegation
uh... meeting with snyder saying like don't
to this uh... this is going to be done
uh... where wary
really anywhere to go now i make it seems to me
that then i think the with is a big point of your your piece that if we can
happen in
it's very difficult for it to happen anywhere and and and maybe we need to
talk before we get there about the uh... the referendum that law
austin this past uh... november sixth
uh... because unions smelt this coming down the pike saw this coming down the
pipeline exmoor ifor
you know that right uh... anna and i think that
the michigan situations they dictate the of
meet the cliche but nevertheless may take a pic botha side
over overreaching
but the union
and now
the uh...
the uh... it the corporate leadership the uh... in in michigan and their and
their political
their political and ideological ally
michigan didn't
is not indiana it should be noted that indiana actually changed its
right-to-work laws
uh... at the beginning of the year two thousand twelve but the the union
density in in indiana is
you know maybe hair
slightly more than half what it is
in in
initiative
uh... it frankly wikipedia the role the unique yet that was the first new
right-to-work state in hand
and you know affair of but you know kuat
quite a while i think and that sort of began to like sort of chip away
at the you know this kind of
status quo where their right to work space in or not right to work
that there's a bit did michigan would be the twenty-fourth state i think in the
country life
the country is broughton
oddly statewide that their population wise
that there are still many more people in on bike to work
uh...
however
because justified the court depicted fifty below confederate south and that
sort of enough
fairly yet not lesser populated but a mountain state complaint state for the
of the midwest that
that or arb our right to work
well
felt like a good publicity and saw what happened in the habit of looking at
wisconsin in the fight to ohio and they could well let's get ahead of it
and won a referendum would quit and flyin
collective bargaining
in the michigan state constitution
and that sort of on the start-up republican appealing i can't hear
if your labor strategist at michigan and maybe around the country but
eppudu member like when u_a_w_ that peak in michigan probably had liked forty
percent org need empties like fifty years ago when democratic presidents
used to begin their there
but democratic panic for president begin their campaigns
by campaigning cadillac square of the twenty one thousand that
u_a_w_ members carried for them
that happened in the constitution thing because that with the with the fact on
the ground
that didn't work out
so they tried everything but the power active that
that very fact that they had to do it demonstrated that they will
they were too weak to pull it off
so the referendum victory planet you'll fall campaign twenty one million bucks
outspent by a little bit at twenty five million for the corporate drive but not
too much
and it was fifty eight forty two
like net in a presidential year when you're going to get a big democratic
turnout
today one
twelve points behind brocco bomb
uh... in in and
within collected then complected pardon the pun occasion
referendum
wrote that when
the right to work type that you know
and that really had time for upcoming they don't
they're not as
as powerful thing maybe you want to think they were
now we can't be helped elect speedo
i really can't
the template that equal
and and make expect data to identify with collective bargaining and you need
right
at michigan
a right-to-work state moving at a point when room too much weaker than than they
used to be
into dramatic
selection
and no monthly you know that american couldn't wait
you know in lifting the very dramatic frightened about k
but even the big three auto companies don't want
i wanted to change i think they have a of working relationship with the u_a_w_
now you've got
than they'll bear fruit
good for you remember the minute walk to our wages and benefits but the company
that supplies in the l_a_ they don't want to finish it
shake picked up they don't
it's not me a better trained they don't think that in their benefit
and i think that a lot of michigan voters don't nobody should teamed up
together that you know like they don't want nafta demonstration they'll want to
come
films somebody trying to figure out a way i don't recall the governor snyder
in that state uh... you know that they they basically don't want
i with respective trauma of
a reasonable amount of of said the contract
so i think
affront you know moderately optimistic that one way or another
that diff
doesn't happen long-term either either
later backed down which i don't know if you agree that he has a lot of people
pushing them to do it
or
if he does
if he does dominate
there is some kind of referendum apparently there's like something in the
in the state constitution that does allow a referendum the vote
it's a tricky saying it's kind of like uh...
uh... like a cue ball of often off the the eight ball of the four point of side
pocket kind of thing but that they might be up to be that ralph
you don't want to use connecting for election they want to know
dental run very hard
replace nighter replayed uh... different state legislators who voted for that
but i think that might be a paternal randomness you know so beyond that kept
the faith the the broader american labor movement
uh...
that's more problematic let's talk about that briefly because the mentioned you
mentioned
that uh...
nevada
the i think it's the cali in area m union
round primary look a little local union uh... they're working in the context of
so-called right-to-work state and they have
had a tremendous
amount of success because uh... uh...
the union and anna and i want you to just sort of
matt and also one of the things that struck me this past year we had the
chicago teachers strike which was is which was incredibly effect
and one of the things that uh... that the the the teachers that were able to
do and i presume part of it is because their teachers uh...
communicate and they spent resources and time any it sounds like he had a
specific strategy
um... long before they went on strike
to create relationships with the broader community so the broader community now
of course your teachers your you're talking to parents it's almost sort of a
you know that's a that's almost pre-existing in some respects but they
invest in the broader community
uh...
they both at work
the teacher's union was not just working for the teachers they made it clear to
the broader community that the teachers' unions also working for the broader
community
and that there are many people who argued in the wake of of the failure to
recall scott walker that what the union's might have been better off doing
is
making it clear to the broader community that look
this is not just an attack on us its all time the legal an attack on the broader
community because this is going to effect the services that you get it's
gonna affect your wages
need to invest people outside of the union in the union struck
uh... bright n
you know that i i agree with you that the teachers in chicago were quite
effective in that general sort of
that that possibility opened up for members of what you might call
but sort of caring profession right
like interns
like no ourselves
white men who don't like option firefighters which should be uh... noted
are excluded
from this right-to-work law in in michigan because they
often support republican seems like that's a cut out
designed to your support
groups that sip
support uh... right-to-work type people
uh...
uh... i do agree that you know if very important that the union team
fifty at at affluent they're wished
and hope
to be as
community-minded at at fraud
in there
in this social appeal at as possible cannot
cannot be what they're often called
uh... by conservatives
and republican
uh... special interest quote unquote
toothpick proved to be
to be organizations that have been
that that general lebed
uh... in in committed to protecting my plate at the department story because
especially have a situation where
made a bunch of luck faded jeans that uh... a bunch of what they did
casinos
we had names that were somewhat corrupt
somewhat you know just
going along with
with the corporation
uh... windows but he knows
and and the individual who ran the thickness and then you have a tremendous
effort by
by the hotel and restaurant workers union the parent of culinary
to to organize entire counting up oma every casino in that
in that uh...
uh...
and at the traffic going for a night state even allowing for the help
identify the recession
it it you know
etc except for shell malcolm
and and one other
and notebook computers yet they didn't think that what they get you know i mean
everybody got hit hard by the recession by the album
bubble
uh... being exploded but basically they come with the middle class wife
uh... and
that you know if you can credibly
milken has a tremendous esprit de corp you've got to take it from time to
update
yes workers in the definitive had great faith in the labor movement buttoned up
wearing like a corner to keep the coupon
they show that support the u_n_
i think there is not a big problem
getting indeed
from from workers
in in at comerica to fit
uh... it's worth it
if of one of the most powerful institutions in the
uh... the judgment todd that dot
uh... within the party moved on to present apparently
uh... leader of the union detailer went biking in it but the bottom magaziner's
company to ten years ago rated the third most powerful performance state
magnitude and it had to do the right to work space
because
the the workers
field make the only knew him
beginning empowers m
they are happy
too
can support that you with their union dues because they didn't know that union
internet them
at their back
uh... it uh... if in fact range for a it's a story
that a lot to do with alan
you know that the difficulty but also the the uh... accepting a building
social movement
uh... it
uh... it's a big deal that mean that state
you know what how do you sort of go from it
the fate of uh...
you know a million a two million people to a country three hundred ten million
uh... and create that kind of energy for for social change and and uh...
and within the labor movement then obviously from march
more challenging complicated question to consider
yeah wisdom and maybe it's a request to me
think that it's possible that we're going to see
and evil lucien of unions to become a mean in some ways
to uh...
service
those are the same
uh... dynamic uh...
of the
eleven insurer's risk
elin in a death spiral in some respects that uh...
you're you're maintaining
the last vestige of your power
uh... which is keeping you live to a certain extent
uh... and i think you even they have said in your piece surya just read the
they're taking a certain medicine which is keeping him alive but it's also
making weaker in some respects and a m that
that the trek with
uh...
point what width
automatic indeed
you know it's actually put that question
on one hand
uh...
you know make
that the functioning of the union
in the receiving of its revenue base
uh... from from the workers because that garden
you uh... obtained their money from from he'd give me the way
a government obtained money from pacs
uh... and that coach fund itself
it makes it easy
because the it's automatically doctor from workers' paychecks
uh... uh... underdeveloped if he's actually a be employed
the trick is
and is that the term and short expect that that if in fact into custody issues
i think the union
essentially an insurance company where one can send in a tractor you have it
automatically deducted from your bank account every month or every three
months server yearly
and that the insurance company provide you with with
within service especially when u
protracted to do it when you can both badly you know you get money from the
insurance company in time
when things are going well for you
depart that's totals or whatever
so we think that organ unique actually
but social movement
a a uh... an execution that it can keep social justice
as and as luther which at dr king
threat to you know like remember dr king died in vain
uh... we shot the middle of the union struggle of a private workers in memphis
tennessee he went there to support that
that attractive if they were to insurance company
that actually did
baby thing to do we have to take the money out
uh... and in fact importantly that today most unique ought
comerica teeth fixed my face
um... the the relationship between them in their workers is
sometimes but sometimes bed
something in between
they don't have like the that's what we are worth all the logistical
power the foot of
go to each worker and for the fake a you know
music that thinking young you need to really shipping yourself to keep it
going otherwise it's going to fade away you know we can keep providing services
without your you've given them
an insurance company
or give it a filter dot groovy at the touch of doctors moving
ups in college and contract
people correctly
didn't give the money and they didn't they're receiving benefits yet but
they're receiving benefits because
they feel that
the union powered band and they in turn by the backbone opinion
um...
when the competition
yes and i appreciate your uh... your talking to us about it and it's uh...
just been
no reported that
uh... the house michigan house-passed
the uh...
the legislation fifty-eight fifty one and now i guess sit
the governor snyder's uh...
that's can we shall see but rich i really appreciate you taking the time