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visiting joins us on the other church now settles anyhow art
doing well connected
we appreciate your coming on the father for several personal growth
phase of this should know before we started interview in a sense of fairness
fills a need of course was a commander-in-chief of sent comp
but he's also currently chairman before that i think president and c_e_o_ of
systems incorporated third largest global defense company and my bias in
this case is that i
hello because there was any made earlier in public so you see where i'm coming
from politics and i you know all that fills it let's start with uh... when
julie sent out
attitude out
and socks and justices who work with ron sightseeing
thank god
us now provides
the scene
obvious to you
that iraqna
or was
let's say misguided
absolutely i thought we watched focusing on
who attacked iso nine eleven we were
into a rock road with a guy in saddam hussein who threaten nobody in had
didn't have the capability of threaten anybody
and we were about to do it in a in a stupid way with too few troops and with
people in their make a decision to didn't understand the region the country
the circumstances
and became a big drain on our military and it was done in a way that obviously
cost is casualties in
great deal of our treasure
sue us on the set
from swelled and *** cheney
in government for a long long time
nazi any of this
i picked it they made a decision time that they were going to do this
and the cherry pick intelligent shuts down
people who would offer advice in warnings as to what could go wrong
and it with a decision made
before the facts are were really uh... brought into play or they heard all the
different views and opinions
and i think they poured into this idea that it would be note the quote them in
that time a cake walk in
flowers in the street
since they were asking to be easy and they say all right look were necessary
for the guys who want to do it for us
which are pretty intelligence setup archives and all that
but then why not
planned for anyway
what's prevent this is where the ladies
there's a famous story of one of the generals ta general says all right
here's what we did in iraq here's our way to take baghdad
and then once we take it
and that slide phase number four the war was to be determined
yet but the real guerrilla a tragedy in all this is there what the plan
and it has been developed over ten years
it recognize what had to be done in their when i left centcom i left the
plan did at my predecessors have worked on
called that before three hundred eighty thousand four thousand troops
if you're going to go in
and and that you didn't disband the army that you did not go through it be better
petition process in alienate
part of the population you didn't close they don't factories and
put people out of work
that was all well known well before in the plan was uh... solid one developed
over a long period of time by a lot of smart people
their problem was they've rejected the plan threw it away
and through this ad-hoc too few troops
rosy scenario planning to play split if i always come back to a wide despite his
motivation behind going into iraq i don't think the motivation behind doing
it poorly
i think the repair without portly when when the road show pentagon first came
in
they wanted to cut ground troops they want to reduce the army thomas
hepatocytes
because they've got a sincere belief that the future within precision weapon
system space-based intelligent systems
now suddenly they were faced with the situation
where they needed more ground troops and it sort of
when it gets their plan
so they became determined to try to do this with few ground troops
and and thinking that just taking down the regime of saddam hussein's solve the
problem soon
any sense from the people that you talked to in the pentagon no while you
were then obviously afterwards that his is more relevant to your blog contacts
are obviously
then original plan was not just the rack
that they were going to go for it
i think
they had this misguided
strategic believe
they would ignite afire in iraq cup
one of our democracy free market economy and somehow
it would spread all over the middle east and they have it's believed that the
the road to jerusalem withdrew baghdad when it
just the opposite
*** and again it's much like the economy of the the the
basic tenants of the strategy that they put in play were followed
it's now general clark tells of uh... moment where he went to the pentagon and
the size of some of his old friends and they said you know iraq's first in iran
uh... and then the listed about five countries did you ever have any similar
conversations
no by i i i never heard that there were two plant beyond that in
if you take it that it would you know we were out
even though we didn't provide enough
objection contention that initiative
we had already spread ourselves bennett in afghanistan and iraq have to think
about a third
uh... mission would have been impossible for the military specially the ground
forces and so it seems that that's because there's so much
error in their unbelievable as they thought that from the beginning but now
we're trying to sell it
his any his offer of leading the charge leadership lessons from the battlefield
to the boardroom will of course put that up on the interfax com in our library so
you can get it from their and now it's about the role of generals an awareness
security fence comes and says hey i've got a great plan
we're invade iraq with very few troops
what what is it
that's hot general supposed to do in that scenario uh... you're supposed to
if you feel something stronger auditor part of it uh... that uh... in your
military judgment
don't make sense to have an obligation
within the system to speak up
if you feel their so-called that endangers
the nation our troops
carved are national security
this that you have to step out you have to resign to retire
and speak from the ranks uh... of the retired as a private citizens are you
just want to do it so your fellow generals who were sold in the pentagon
did not do that
yes uh... you know i a m because you know i think they were pushed aside
uh... military equation specially dot went counter to what they
wanted to believe was not invited and and i think there should have been more
insistent on military device advice being provided we went through this in
vietnam
i would be great book written a dereliction of duty
bedroom you know it was actually written by an army major criticizing the
generals
and an in during the course of iraq we had young officers right letters and
articles criticizing their generals for not speaking up
and you think they did it again
all right now of
i want
answer because we we don't of course you know 'cause you're the head of second
but we don't know how these things work
if that president consciences the were ready in iraq or were
already in afghanistan i'm not asking you to take the country i know you guys
can do that and you have you know tried and true methods of
of uh... executing admission up instead what now or widening servicing
go ahead generals ini get us out of it
were you start what do you do
well i think the first we have to be sure people understand that
in order to get out of it it's going to take time
too
counter insurgency operations require a number of things one is changing the
environment
could be a political system could be the economic system the social system
building up a security forces the local one so they could replace
our troops and other international troop
fit as quickly as possible
and then providing the
disability for them in the way of support after that if you if you build
them up
i think digital data transfer good example of somebody could get it
and he came into a rock road when it when it was uh... relief
failed and its predecessors had not really understood it
but it took a look at the couple of years to really turn it around and of
course
we're leaving at a time now worry at least given a chance for the iraqi
government to sixty
but if you look at afghanistan now i think we have to understand this is a
three to five year process uh... best
before we can do those things
what was sixty element in iraq that we might feel repeat in afghanistan design
a lot of people talk about the serves in the number of skills fraud ends and our
bring in more true september sense betsy
that the real deal was in striking deals with the people on the ground i could be
wrong about that so i want to ask you what you thought was a critical part no
i i think you're right i you know we we we approach goes i think when we first
took an honest look at who the quoted in the world
we realized they weren't all the same
and there were reconcilable elements with within the forces that were opposed
to us uh... and so
we began to approach those particularly in a bar problems with the sunnis and
and the sunni awakening
and i think that can be repeated
in afghanistan and pakistan even by the admission of the pakistanis any afghans
there are what they call the reconcilable kaela bonds
you know they're obviously hardcore et al qaeda
that that won't apply it but there are many others that are ideologically
motivated
and they may be enemies just because they don't want you know bill which are
they don't understand who you are you're the foreign troops in
communications contacting gauge main incentives
all can work so i think you're right that's a major lesson they can be
applied in afghanistan's sound
cisco brocco bombs come and we've got a number of the top terrorist leaders we
along with other governments for example by filaments who'd just killed in
pakistan
uh... and then of the top al-qaeda leader and southeast asia was killed in
indonesia knows indonesian government not us
uh... but it seems like there's a number of successes
gives us a little bumble or sector defense cases do
right now
uh... i think several thank you know what he redefined the strategy president
obama
it's an ambitious one but peace each trying to first internationalize the
effort in other words
this is not just the united states problem this is the world problem
and the burden-sharing should be spread evenly at there should be nato troops in
there aren't greater numbers but actually
will will take the up the fight
including garces second think he's recognizing there's a lot of work to be
done here we gotta get regional cooperation and coordination
uh... to get this done it has to be india pakistan and afghanistan working
together
and and only we could make that happen because they're not natural bedfellows
he's also now uh... committed to developing b uh... afghan
uh... security forces and supporting the pakistan security forces in building
them up
that's critical what we'll take a few years
uh... but you know eventually do they need to replace our troops on the ground
and that again going to ask your point about inc aging uh... the taliban
annalise reducing the number of enemy you have bite some sort of engagement
and incentives
uh... that is the fourth part i think it has to come into play
so i think those are the principal component of the strategy that he's
articulated we're trying to sell i i think there's any he was expensive sent
on a special on board on the leases bookers now leading the charge
leadership lessons from battlefields of the boardroom
of one more thing on bush and she needs it today *** cheney came out and
apparently said as a prelude to is new
who book that he's going to write that bush was too soft in a second term
you think that the problem might have been reverse that bush listen to ***
cheney too much in his first arm
i think definitely in the beginning at
accustomed to the president kim didn't want to receive uh... all his own
information and
today to decision on from the rumsfeld cheney line and
and people like uh... secretary colin powell and others
it might provide some balance for that
we're not really occurred
and not really invited into the closest circle the provided advice
finally i want to dress one is this very important
and that's the military industrial complex now you're the c_e_o_ and
chairman of the board look third largest global defense company actually second
now
of second nicely done paths cell but in all seriousness do we have a conflict of
interest from the if the top generals know that they're likely to go into the
top
defense industry
corporations afterwards
and how they carry out their jobs while they're at the pentagon
i think that we have to be very careful with that i think your president
eisenhower certainly gave it caution
uh... you know it's not every general it moves over their it'd be aware that we
have restrictions on the amount of time that you have to be
goner can't reconnect to former convention that sort of thing
uh... where i feel in in the in the
good companies
general officers or others are brought in are there because of their expertise
to mean after all
you're providing equipment support poor
you know our soldiers and marines airman and sailors
and you want people in there that no the best kind of equipment to bring it
if those generals and admirals are used in any way to influence
sales or political decisions on programs
that's absolutely wrong
matter of fact i had to be taken to task in a business at that he could happen if
you're just going to use their expertise
in what is needed out there and help best to meet the requirements are put
out
then i think it's appropriate because who knows better
but i'd take your point mean we have to watch that
the it gets you can get to cozy if you're not careful and we have
congress they military did
and the pentagon that makes a strategy and then
the industry that supplies that
we should not try to influence from the industry side
the strategic decisions
or the political decisions we just saw two major
programs canceled the f_ twenty-two
and the army's future combat system
and congress agreed with secretary cajun
chairman a joint chiefs of on those decisions
and industry stayed out of the way which i think is the appropriate using those
arises examples programs i think they were hard decision to there's always a
risk in what you do
there was no
clear-cut
you know he he he he decision
and i think it was the best decision under the circumstances and
i think they're going to be more decisions like that and we shouldn't
think that there that he he did make because
when you make a decision like that you accept from risky so if you accept less
of an advantage in certain areas
but that's where the trade-off epochal moment budgets are going to come down we
can't afford everything
we have all the things that are putting demands on our dollar
joe zuniga soup are so that the one as far as a possible conflict conflict of
interest uh... one is after you
get out of the military then you go back to you could go back and influence your
friends that are still in the military you address that in your answer
the second part of it is why you're so in the military
well knowing
but there could be some lucrative contracts in the future
isn't it
normal that person would think well
you know i better be good to this defense industry because
that's where my bread could be but it later
well first of all uh... anyone good that wilder on active duty had any
communication or in any way
of
you know it was
implies that they would accept or as any
indication of appointed anywhere at that it's against the against the law
uh... you can't do that they can talk to you while you're still on active duty
uh... so i don't know of anyone to have it could be certain of that second of
all
if you understand the way the contracting works and this is where
we've got a hot there was no always maintained that the regulation is to
wait it goes
the contract put out the requirements
and the company's this
and present proposals on those requirements
as a matter of fact ticket if i were to go into a general's office victoria
commanders centcom
and try to influence the decision anyway he would be subject to legal action for
even entertaining me for that
and i would be subject to to thumbs scrutiny and eventually
from reprimand from sort
for even engaging in that
beck that's totally inappropriate structure to be done that way
uh... you didn't have to stay with the program managers the acquisition process
and not
have that kind of influence sir
that go to overcharge the short circuit that
believe me when i was a general on active duty of irfan retired general
came to see me that i knew that worked for asia a defense industry company
my lawyer my step to adapt it was sitting next to them
and he was going to make sure
nothing was said or done and that in that meeting that that was uh...
inappropriate well that makes sense and i'm sure that
most people would not be things upfront like that but i think it's got out
the in the back of someone's had an i'm a little worried about that
as a general problem i have to be out there don't know what the faces burglar
out you know i i think it's it's called scrutiny wheatley ought to have the kind
of agencies in government
that inspect and are involved in this certainly the military legal side
to ensure no this happens
contract monitoring need to be done a lot better
i mean i think we've seen that the way contracts have been handled in there
in the russia
to the complex right now but certainly need improvement
so he listened final question unrelated note yells services is a republican soft
say we shouldn't do
public option and health care reform because the government cannot anything
right
as a man who ran centcom which is a fairly large government operation
using any offense at that
yeah i i like doing this institution
no government agency is uh...
is competent or efficient there are many there are
by the federal government in order
in the field my problem with this whole health care
debate is it's become over politicized
uh... with their we need a civil
dialog it's a serious matter
and we've we've made this a political issue full of spin
and rhetoric that if they're going to help the process and i wish we would get
back to some sort of intellectual civil dialogue on this link
because it's too important our general tony zuni former commander in chief
centcom
current c_e_o_ of baby
he says that instead
and the offer of leading the charge leadership lessons from the battlefield
to the boardroom which is up now on the altar farrakhan library
channels anne thank you so much for your time we really thank you