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wife's
on the phone it's a pleasure to welcome to the program are cleavage
is the I washington correspondent
chief Washington correspondent for The New York Times Magazine an author
I love this town welcome to the program marked
thank you sam could be here I really
I really enjoyed your book I mean I found it also really terribly depressing
a and I am sure you hear that the
decent order quite a bit in I and some other stories
love the individuals I have been recovered over the years
I and its a and I want to get into summer the
the the individuals but II wanna serb
brought it up because we're things I really found fascinating about the book
and you know we all proceeds things from our own
eyes player I back when I was
the in sorted the entertainment straight entertainer I guess
yeah um I had a is through the
almost eight a similar perspective on what was going on in hollywood in fact
that the only things that I made
that were anyway remotely successful were basically indictment serve
a the Hollywood world and
I I'm interested in how mean in in people should know just in general the
you tell the story love what we referred to on this program and others
as above the village deserted right sleep the per minute
service tablets mint class there Andhra I
you you document howitzer have gone beyond where we could have
wildly imagined I Brett but but just give us a sense
just a broad sense at first and then i wanna talk about the trip air to things
but
above just wow how you would describe the
interconnection here in in in what it brings about
yeah I know terrible I think first brought important
to to define your term in this town
did not intend to refer to a comprehensive
a look at all of washington DC and infected
if not it's a very small group of people
population was mean this is the political class people in this town
are people in the political class people who are
elected officials who were on steps were lobbyists who are members of the media
people who
are disproportionate in there power in their attention
in the money they make and and almost always do the people who are yelling at
each other interior on the floors of congress about whether the government
shutdown they are not
people who will be affected by the government shutdown these people who
love all be paid anyway
and these are not the people who
lost their lives at the Naval Yard last month I mean these are not people who
are anonymous and work really really hard and don't care about
how many Twitter followers they have a little care about being on
CNN 2 p.m. and and they can't alter Facebook read about them in this is a
the group that that the again is
outsized in the attention again so this is a subculture want to write about
and it want to criticism Bookham
has been and I talked to missus I think a whole has been very well received but
i wanna criticism has been that that I don't focus on the
do gooders the anonymous people to people who a
who are in it for the right reasons and so forth and i i plead completely go to
the someone else to do that book but and this is this is the carnival on the
focus well I and Part IVA mean
you know to the extent that that the criticism
is fair I mean what the the real story it seems to me here is the
there's always been those people
I absolutely do gooders and total
in to some extent there's always been an establishment I mean
sally quinn I would was famous for saying
that the clinton's came into washington in trashed
their place but but but what what is different between
this the the sort have the village that Sally Quinn was talking about
in the village that you write about
yellow with different is that over the last
what's a decade but maybe two decades from
you had pics incredible explosions money into the system into the political
system
it which extends obviously campaigns lobbying
consulting a just a public relations industry and
there's just so much more money to be made in the political system now than
there ever was before
and as a result of the you had a lot more people coming to washington
to get rich worries that was not the case thirty forty years ago
30 become much more monied entourage class or whatever was
even back in awakened um
in addition new media has completely revolutionized this conversation has
really changed the
the ecosystem a lot to appoint were mean cable has given
pretty much NEC list political operative a face
yeah it anyone can anyone can West guy and I'm not a political operative but
nevertheless
now but I mean look at me and it's like is is definitely expanded the population
love people who
you have to make a name for themselves and even
profit from that name million with the perception that there are washington
insider in
and so forth so I mean it's become this anarchy in the peanut gallery and I
think new media and
to some degree that old media but I mean things like
again cable me interesa have been able to quite a bit
it's interesting because you know we we with the
the certify guess the the conventional wisdom or or what we hear
sold by what seems to be this sordid deepest Nexus
I love above this group
seems to be there their line seems to be that the problem with Washington
is the polarized nation on some level but
your book shows that the polarized nation is really just more
love almost this or the roles that are people
are playing right you for their a
a nexus dad is I am that is
without any political ideology in some way other than
yet make money yeah I mean whatever but a Christmas book that but I certainly
so in a much fuller sensitive relief that ever did before
is the distinction not so much between Democrats and Republicans in Washington
but but insiders purses outsiders in
which is not to say that politics today is a polarizing
the partisanship that the drive so much over dysfunction
I'm the in national politics isn't
real mean it's absolutely real but I think
their is in many cases a kind if we get a *** that
a there's a show business aspect to this too and we are playing the roles
and I'm a professional democrat a professional republican
and the fact the matter is a I meet Ted Cruz a maybe option see what happens to
him because he
to because the system as it as it exists today I'm here set for life right
I'm he doesn't care about you know what senators have typically cared about over
the years which is the respective his colleagues which is
committee assignments which is you know
raising money from the right donors I mean he is set for life because he
um as sorta because it's a racist abuse set about trying to get famous he will
probably run for president 2016
and whether he wins for loses he will be absolutely fine you'll
I'm the you know he'll get speaking money you're probably a TV show
will be he'll be an icon and you can you know Sarah Palin's a great example
someone who
sure very little time in office in hand can basically make tens of millions of
dollars if not hundreds of millions of dollars
in there in the comfort of your own living room in her own TV studio
into she is she just for the press a button and all the sudden shoes Sarah
Palin income and that's the world we live in today
but ultimately it is a role-playing game
I think once you're inside washington you see that much more clearly been
maybe you do outside what's fascinating to me me bring up take cruises that
it's almost as if it is you know one of the things that I'm I'm quite convinced
that is that did the
the reason why we see the rise above Ted Cruz
and in that ilk is that there is
it's almost another separate industry
that is at loggerheads with that establishment industry he
Ian ready see it so much you know like people
spoke about the the the swipe fees the
legislation as really to industries that were fighting it out
inaccurate it on some level what we're seeing I think with this year the
the conservative movement that is a assorted the
you know its amway verses I am
you know sir something that is more sure that some fortune 500 company ride
reno like these true industries that are fighting with each other
but everybody's getting paid yeah everybody respected may be a better
knowledge even
maybe something like gum are Google versus
Microsoft something like Google Bing the upstart colossus was Microsoft was the
existing establishment colossus I mean
windswept do you think is a good example me I'd Huffington Post gonna love
good reporting on this but again its pastor is positioning
and you um and the grass roots are extremely powerful and I think it's not
too much of a stretch to say that the grassroots
a.m. you know hope and change for everyone to call it that but elect
Barack Obama's not terribly distinct from the grassroots
fed up with washington that that has propelled the Tea Party in Ted Cruz and
me on the left the Occupy movement leader obviously there are different
characteristics here but I think that work i mean it
it's not it this is a different strains populist it's one that's driven
very much buy online energy from but I also think that it's real and I i think
that it's
um it's become a force to be reckoned with them and I think that's definitely
change again
well but but what I mean by you know that did the
the difference why would tripp parse out something like Occupy
verses you know what we're seeing on this this sorted
on the right for instance is is simply that
there is no the George Soros sadly
is not dumping half a billion dollars per cycle
into the machine that exists in the populace left them in for obvious
reasons
abut that money is just so much money floating around in their popular right
that it is creating a whole
ecosystem love people who while
their agenda may not be good for
their policies in long term although arguably it is
arm that gets divorced from the fact that they're just making a huge amount
of money
by saying whatever it is people Washington out attach
yeah 90 minutes in at 11 a.m. with interesting is that
i mean a lot of the tournament Europe you heard pieces have this back in 94
when
you gingrich republican revolution their all-time a term limits right that was
like a bit wanna be
really mother two or three big platform issues during the election
and with what happens is I mean it's a great message on
on the stump in the same way that you know open changes a great message on
this number when you get here I'm
i think im be a more than half the people who made that pledge wound up
would leak out a bit somehow in many were still in congress now
um so yet no I mean
and I think it's worth reading if yes big money is behind a lotta
semitic we did a story on but I'm sister a few weeks ago on on how
you know a lot of very well-heeled conservative groups like the Koch
brothers were
were very very instrumental in arm
in the lead-up to the government shutdown and missus rabin and gained a
lot of very very well-heeled interested in vision from a very very
early point in and all these discussions so
yeah I mean lookit it's good for businesses to winning the message I mean
thats completely cynical view of this but I
it's a really vicious cycle and and frankly you know the Ted Cruz's the
world can benefit
let's talk about the mean you he compared
this this this from I guess this
permanent industry that is sorta guy is grown up around DC
I in its you know there's always been that sent to the PE company town I was
there
20 the some-odd you 25
me though God 27 years ago as a
and in turn on the hill and I just remember it did you know five years
later six years later as in Hollywood
and it was very similar your you're constantly running into everybody who's
feeling of this one
assertive company town but but but tell me how else do you perceive
this sort of both the how
washing has become some way is similar in dynamic to Hollywood in
in some ways they've also become international India particularly through
the washing correspondent's dinner just
yet no I mean there's there's always a mister sleep rose during the clinton
years has been a symbiosis between
hollywood into celebrity culture hollywood in the celebrity culture
Washington
I a corresponding center is is part of this but I mean
there's a fairly long history of
parallels between the small towns the big egos
Hollywood and and those in Washington DC
right and um I think what's
with always worth pointing out is that Washington
on my Cali word is for keeps them in mississippi
that was built supposedly on public services
not make-believe like hollywood and
arm but now I mean people come to the corresponding
serving there is a sex appeal to Holly 22 to Washington
arm that was really Cup epitomized by the West Wing
during the late clinton early Bush years but
but really has gone you know we do it because more thing under the umbrella of
pop culture that did not
again exist before and arm
the after a while you have this class is famous people
people on TV persons the rest of us
and again that's a big piece about insider the outsider world
that we see here from that is again missing from the left the right world
that everyone perceives to be at the root ball
I had a a a theory about people going to Hollywood that
I in terms of the way that they would change in I with the analogy was just
that serve
there was a latent I am I can almost like a a Leighton allergy and until you
got into this environment
you didn't realize that you were the you were the you had this allergy
and it would right change you in some way like you know I need to move out the
country before I realize that I'm
horribly allergic to pollen I in in
when I was reading the part about chris dodd those the only I could think about
just jealousy
serve the chris dodd story you're as you tell her down chris dodd
you know what time senator from Connecticut overcommitted democrat
from and a very very productive end to his career man he was
who spearheaded the dodd-frank financial
services reform bill he was mental health care debate
we've had a the help committee that more
when the key writers are the the health care bill in
retiring he was quite unpopular in connecticut abuse reported a trend in
which
you're in Port Washington became disproportionate to your popularity
boaters and and he was in some real trouble in 2010 to reserve not to run
Wichita failure at the he had some he was getting some
did have some very cold warrior countrywide mortgage yea they were the
youth involved the scandal involving
countrywide and some campaign got contributions and special treatment or
let special treatment
deal way I do so do a story on him that summer to a person with him in a
separate dining room in saying center we're going to do now
your life is wide open book incredible possibility about him
like you might win the peace corps again you do that
early in his life from you might like to talk about the insurance
start up for a bite you know at that point he had been mentioned as a
possible
president at the University of Connecticut them said
we have to lobby are you just know that of course not I will take this off the
table right now
amino life is filled with possibilities I'm gonna try to expand my horizons and
sadly you can't really tell with the story and Chris does no one was powerful
lobbyists in Washington DC European for
Motion Picture Association of America which is
the most powerful lobby for Hollywood and look I don't blame you can make a
living you can make is 1.3 1.5 whatever
billion dollars a year in any certainly entitled to that
but I think you know the title the chapter the you're referring to is
institutionalized i think im
the yourself for what you're on the inside it can be hard to leave
I mean it is obviously a for luxury the luxurious president but it's a prison on
the left
I mean it's interesting because I don't get the sense mean I don't know if you
had the sense and
but that he was lying to you at the time I mean I think it was not a career
I don't think so either I I think he will being sincere trying to be sincere
thanks to
you know I don't think it was alive maybe his Street and Washington is
speaking evolved
on the subject but no I mean my book charts a lot of work to do in
in this town is really I'm
give a sense you know and hopefully the fun way
Paulo the prism
works how this carnival works how really there aren't any losers
with a really quite an easy town that a tough town
it's a place for there's always a next that them and
a more than ever there's always a paycheck so
um no I mean I think daughters I you know he's obviously Parliament sample
lot of characters who are in this category yet tell us about the
Kurt Bardella the no
ok Walker paralysis longtime aide to paralyzed who
became a unwitting reports a quite within character in the book The
it was some I was focusing on Easter sending me emails from
members of congress from forwarding emails to members of congress general
media me
in the guise of helping me to understand how his days were spent and
politico learned of this became a mini scandal when
a it was learned that he was unbeknownst to the actual surrender the email
sending emails to
a reporter reading a book I E me and so subtly
from he lost his job became a huge story at least in the tiny village a Capitol
Hill
for about a week as and from
occur was totally disgraced and and innovative you always have lunch in this
town again
course got his old job back with them a few months he's now
a more visible than ever strategist working on a member
conservative causes them yeah above charges laid out
writ large in Chapter eight I mean it goes
it so in some ways a juicer shows that you cannot
a the worst thing you can do in washington in terms have your career
is to not I am is to not get into the pages
I'll your book or into political I mean
there's no you cannot be shamed
the in fact to be shamed is really the worst thing you can do
because you gotta get back out there and be loud and proud about
the your brand in some way I know so it's it's it's
yeah it's kinda depressing go to: 30 minutes 7 the
at that as many complaints from people who are not miss ok people who are in
the
for well lanny davis you guys are just about lanny davis cuz I i do I have to
give him any more problems
well ok and I'll add a reply enlightened
stainless public relations guy his expertise
apparently this crisis communications lani
very visible figure he was not in the book
he called me immediately expressing to port of course thanks for not keeping
him in
but in fact he was appalled to be in course been told that story
my early promote interviews and a
plan to keep getting more and more attention turns out after a few days
for talking more about later Davis was in the book more than I was talking
about people who are actually in the book so
I doubt where you classic guy who has made washington work for him
you someone on TV you someone who
you know likes to think he is worth knowing in a lot of people apparently
you're willing to pay for it
and that is i mean the me that is almost deserted the
the perfect the metaphor for the dynamic that you're talking about because
when you're mentioning him on whatever it is on now
Morning Joe his stock rises
and he will get more from whatever horrible dictator he's going to lobby
Columbia have
a ruined it now it's all basis I gonna daniel snyder the
order to Washington Redskins recently retained him
to I think largely help businesses defensive the
be made Redskins which many people find offensive to Native Americans racist
but have %um and yen-dollar a good seems about right
to them would find each other how I wanna talk a little bit about
a Harry Reid because a any Harry Reid a very interesting
a character in the context your book because
I mean I've heard you say that day year first go through your your publisher
wanted
you know there to be a a protagonist who could be there
sort of the the one that we can relate to in look ball world
a and I really appreciate the fact that there really isn't one
the I and you're talking about a stopper and yeah
and in I am end well just tell so you know it
about about that part of it because you know I horror to bring it back to me but
do
the movie i made would very much like that we had only your
despicable characters yeah in the No that already our I mean look sometimes
sometimes ensemble works better than
like be the same goal a min you know defining protagonist I mean I just
didn't
I didn't find that person probably would've been easier for narrative
sake for you know for maybe for clarity's sake
to have that one person that one mister smith
that one I'm Frank Underwood everyone
you know who or whatever washington protagonist 21
a you know put in there but a you look I i mean
this is the profile over system it's a profile
what what city has become in its not permit approval for any one person
yeah won't pick on anyone people but I think in too much as people
the group of people don't come off looking well here and I think that's as
much a product to
them being coopted them being institutionalized in
in this you chris dodd like where your or any other way and and that
but the book on the right so wound up writing yeah let's let's talk a little
bit about Harry because i'm concerned. fascinated
the he in the book %um you mention that Harry Reid
in you know I I've known people that have have worked for him and I have a
sensitive
love who years and some
you know to the extent that one can have a sense from from it from a distance
but I am what really interests as me in in
you know this is come out before that he had basically
a.m. approach the Barack Obama
and it's hard to know who the determinate voice was
for Obama when cuz I imagine there was a lot of them when he decided to challenge
Hillary Clinton but I am E
there seems mean out to be %uh
he a tension between their two agendas frankly
the yeah in your Abhishek any other thoughts about them
well there they have worked pretty well together but I would say still that that
Obama
repair Obama's probably would probably to that that Harry Reid has been is
chief legislative partner
you know during his presidency min I read a lot
more for clothes gotta for amount of control over his caucus
from incomplete relative to the diversity over
ideological thought there in and look really is very old school
uses very boss-like in some way that he can make things happen
as a position to make things happen for better than unit people issues in part
because
he's a majority but um now I mean they're both the middle President Obama
one-tenth missed about him
in all the hope and change in a stuff that he's a very pragmatic kinda old
school athlete
subway he is someone who a
you like bob movies he likes moral structure types and Harry Reid is
Vegas you know former organized crime
Prosecutor v he knows that world he knows pragmatism in
and take a look at me so they have had hiccups in a very very distinctive
objectivism right now harry wants to keep Senate me that
work but will he keep him going you're probably right again
um I think as present about second term
gets closer to being finished I mean I think they're their genders will will
diverge even more but
I in it hard to both in some ways
points on the board guys and he could to bring about a diagram healthcare Dunham
gum the present study was done without surgery
and India the the latest came out i mean there was some reporting in Huffington
Post about the
a meeting they had in July where
the apparently present Obama was quick question whether or not I read I control
this carcass
Iranian harried expressed the
his frustration over the the white house's role in the
a fiscal cliff negotiations right no I mean look that that there have been in
meetings like that for a while but I think work pro bono
Senate me for a minute about set up everybody knows the house you know
how big and how thank was Harry Reid's job is I think
up it's probably a little bit less thankless them with john bainer
job is at this point probably even Mitch McConnell's
you know a jobs at this point to the battery doesn't have a tad
through his caucus right now a so
from look no I mean I I think there there's obviously some frustration
I mean I her real is nothing if not calculating im
some would even say machiavellian a
I think it'll be what it'll be fascinating to watch it play out but I i
think that but look it's basically worked
I think these these marriages are never never ideal especially when you have
such divergent personalities ratings generally work well what do you think
happened to
the President Obama present Obama came in with your the it very ambitious
agenda to and at least number this lobbying culture in it in seems to have
I me to the extent that he had he s he seems to have
failed if if that was really really his agenda in its
it has continued to grow I mean he do we have something that sort of analogous to
the
through the deep state their people talk about when they talk about things like
the
national security there that is grown 0
well I mean look at II think that it's very
from america's I would question how hard President Obama really tried
to change Washington be certainly campaigned *** this team
um you do wonder if
if he could have done more even early on whether it's more than just one Super
Bowl party or one
bipartisan cocktail party or what have you want whether that might have
actually bought
more goodwill the could have made any changes whatsoever but
but look them in the Tea Party didn't really exist
in 2008 I mean it was we are getting to the root server
then and you can argue all day about what
what has driven the the Tea Party and whether it's
genuine frustration urge anyone heard just you know different
name for for extreme conservatism
populism but I I think from but I do question
I mean I think what's clear is that the President Obama as move this forward not
all
for changing the tone in Washington and
um I i think is clearly seems to have given up
but I also think that again I think the question how hard he throws
is very very valid I mean they came out with Israel the No
you know that you're cutting down on the a revolving door and then just sort of
provided waivers
yeah I know it was a good deal with the memory many many exceptions much book
they're allowed to
make exceptions and change their minds or flip flops im
I'm allowed to be demoralized someone who a.m.
is you just become cynical watching something special in your reporter in
your spoken to in the languages
obsequious nisam live spin a missile normal people talk to each other so
but I but I hope that this town to the lays out pretty well but I think that
there are a lot of books to read about washington but I do think that
that I mean I don't apologize for for
writing a book that might not be all that respectful
the political culture that that we have come to to see every
you don't provide any prescriptions for this service problem in some ways but I
mean
mean how I mean how is that for the project for those of us who are
assertive interested in
I am Ian in in in bringing about
specific policy change in user you lay out this snapshot
love a system which
which succeeds in certain policy change is not happening in some respect for
I were how you know the now you've had some talent for the door but I guess
yeah in read the book almost as a consumer anatomy at least sure
how do how do we exploit this and let me tell you that I mean I was so there's a
midget
someone who never experienced this is a real but also does
the listener someone who has been all over the country was heard with people
upset about
that is the book but but also system that those described in
out to the single biggest thirst
out there from people have spoken to is some especially after reading the book
is for some kinda
campaign finance retreats you know regulation there
or a bad I just don't know anyone who thinks that this
this is stay in a border that it won't be get some kinda terrible scandal that
on both sides
'em you hear a lot of talk these days more than maybe you did
5-10 years ago but term limits might think that that still out there
you certainly here a lot of hunger for your love people voice a lot of
desire hunger for a third party candidate something I think that
that america's right for that if in fact that person exists in
ideally confront him or herself from again that might just be the same pipe
dream that the people have been talking about for
for decades but um you know it's far as my pen bullet points and I we can make
the nation's capital work better
a really have that chapter so I may get ultimately 'em
putting a journalist happens saying you know my my job is to
to hold a mirror to our culture in hopefully you know maybe a
maybe in Jackson better or at least you know start a conversation ender
or solicit some kind of soul search that the american bring the country for
when you when you when you set down to two to hold that mara did you have a
sense
love just how the
what that with that image would look like now to really nice touch with the
president I don't know if I T
I didn't know with the dispiriting as it would turn out as people
would really probably was naive to think so otherwise but now I'm gonna guess
what you got going on mister found a voice that was
maybe a little darker than I realized existed but I through but with it and I
think
it it for better or for worse captured
what a lot of people hopes from seen under you know under this microscope
did a a thicker there what are the interviews that the
listen to be four before talking to you today
I i get the sense that the on some level the
this exercise permitted to
the obviously more than an exercise but for you
it was some way love
I don't know the only the the analogy argues that the
I was quite convinced that had a clear state on certain sitcoms I would be
significantly fatter and Red Deer AB with some major a drug problem at this
point my life
I yeah that's true out of it it could be worse than
be in washington insider do I i think i think that that's true but I think
its something where you do feel dirty after a while
and I don't I mean again this is probably more
in itself psychoanalysis and I probably publicly but I do think that this is
probably
away the to to cleanse myself try to at least
from you know share the sure the sure the culture the dirt with people to the
park
that that what you get so far inside it's pretty hard to
to see yourself honestly and and be in touch with with the kind of things I got
you involved in
in this town to begin with them and let them a journalist I don't want to be
friends with these people I've probably lost and make friends and others which
is fine
from but program but I do think that it's a story that was worth telling him
I think that trumped everything else mike leavitt share the book is this now
we have a link to it at
majority .fm thanks so much for your time today thank you so much really
appreciate
good