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TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.
>> Bill Moyers: TO THAT CHORUS
LET US NOW ADD NOW THE WITNESS
OF MARSHALL GANZ. HE'S AN
AMERICAN MAESTRO OF ORGANIZING
WHO HIMSELF, HAS NEVER GIVEN IN
TO DESPAIR OR GIVEN OVER TO
FEAR.
>> Marshall Ganz: HOW CAN CHANGE
EVER HAPPEN IF THE POWERFUL
ALWAYS WIN?
THERE ARE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH
IT TURNS OUT DAVID CAN SOMETIMES
WIN.
>> Bill Moyers: AT HARVARD'S
KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT,
MARSHALL GANZ TEACHES THE NEXT
GENERATION OF ORGANIZERS,
STUDENTS FROM ALL OVER THE
WORLD.
HE TELLS THEM WHEN IN DOUBT,
JUST REMEMBER THE STORY IN THE
BIBLE OF LITTLE DAVID AND HIS
SLINGSHOT.
>> Marshall Ganz: WHAT DID YOU
TAKE FROM THE CLASSIC STORY OF
DAVID AND GOLIATH?
HOW DOES IT BEGIN?
HOW DOES THE WHOLE, WHEN DOES
THE ACTION BEGIN?
>> GOLIATH IS MARCHING OUT AND
REPEATEDLY CHALLENGING THE
ISRAELITES.
AND NO ONE COMES OUT TO
CHALLENGE HIM.
>> Marshall Ganz: RIGHT.
AND SO THAT'S JUST GOING ON DAY
AFTER DAY.
SO THEN WHAT, WHEN DOES THE
ACTION SHIFT?
>> WHEN DAVID SHOWS UP TO BRING
THE FOOD TO HIS BROTHERS AND
HEARS THIS AND SAYS, "WHY IS NO
ONE DOING ANYTHING TO RESPOND TO
THIS?"
>> Marshall Ganz: IN OTHER
WORDS, THE FIRST THING THAT
HAPPENS HERE IS INJUSTICE, NEED
TO ACT, COMMIT, AND THEN THE
ACTION BEGINS.
UNTIL THAT POINT, NOTHING IS
REALLY HAPPENING.
WHEN THE KING SAYS, "HERE, TAKE
MY, TAKE MY HELMET, TAKE MY
SHIELD.
TAKE MY ARMOR."
WHAT, WHAT'S DAVID DO?
>> HE PUTS IT ON.
>> Marshall Ganz: PUTS THEM ON.
SEE DAVID DOESN'T HAVE IT ALL
FIGURED OUT.
THAT'S THE POINT.
HE'S IN ACTION HERE.
HE DOESN'T HAVE IT ALL FIGURED
OUT.
THE KING SAYS, "WELL, YOU GOING
TO FIGHT POWER?
HERE, YOU NEED WEAPONRY TO FIGHT
POWER."
DAVID ACTUALLY TAKES THEM, HE
PUTS THEM ON, AND THEN WHAT
HAPPENS?
HE CAN'T MOVE.
THEY'RE TOO HEAVY, LITERALLY.
HE CAN'T MOVE.
THAT'S WHEN HE HAS HIS MOMENT OF
INSIGHT AND HE LOOKS DOWN AT HIS
FEET AND HE SEES THESE FIVE
STONES THERE.
AND SAYS WAIT A SECOND.
I'M NOT A SOLDIER.
I'M A SHEPHERD.
AND THAT'S, TIM, WHEN HE SAYS,
"AS A SHEPHERD, I KNEW HOW TO
PROTECT MY FLOCK FROM WOLF AND
THE BEAR.
AND IT WASN'T WITH A SWORD, AND
IT WASN'T WITH A SHIELD.
IT WAS WITH A STONE AND A
SLING."
MAYBE GOLIATH'S JUST ANOTHER
WOLF.
JUST ANOTHER BEAR.
WHAT'S GOLIATH'S REACTION?
HO. HO. HO. AM I A DOG?
YOU SEND A BOY WITH A STICK.
AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE THIRD
"HO" A STONE IN THE FOREHEAD AND
INTO GOLIATH. AND NOT A STORY
ABOUT NON-VIOLENCE.
>> Bill Moyers: SMITING GOLIATH
MIGHT AS WELL BE MARSHALL GANZ'S
JOB DESCRIPTION.
IT BEGAN IN MISSISSIPPI'S
FREEDOM SUMMER OF 1964 WHEN HIS
FURY AGAINST INJUSTICE PULLED
HIM OUT OF HARVARD AND INTO THE
STRUGGLE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS.
FROM THERE, HE SIGNED ON WITH
THE LEGENDARY CESAR CHAVEZ AND
THE UNITED FARM WORKERS AND FOR
16 YEARS, STRUGGLED TO UNIONIZE
THE MEN AND WOMEN IN THE FIELDS
OF CALIFORNIA WHO TOILED ENDLESS
HOURS AND MOUNTING DAYS, PICKING
CROPS FOR NEXT TO NOTHING.
THREE DECADES AFTER MARSHALL
GANZ HAD DROPPED OUT OF HARVARD,
HE WENT BACK TO FINISH HIS
DEGREE AND EARN A DOCTORATE.
A FEW YEARS LATER, HE WAS ASKED
TO BECOME THE ARCHITECT BEHIND
THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN'S SKILLFUL
ORGANIZING OF STUDENTS AND
VOLUNTEERS.
TODAY, MARSHALL GANZ IS A
FOUNDER OF THE LEADING CHANGE
NETWORK, A GLOBAL COMMUNITY OF
ORGANIZERS, EDUCATORS AND
RESEARCHERS MOBILIZING FOR
DEMOCRACY. YOU'LL FIND MORE OF
HIS EXPERIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY IN
THIS BOOK -- "WHY DAVID
SOMETIMES WINS."
MARSHALL GANZ.
IT'S GOOD TO MEET YOU.
>> Marshall Ganz: IT'S GOOD TO
MEET YOU, BILL.
>> Bill Moyers: STORIES HAVE
BEEN A POWERFUL PART OF YOUR
LIFE.
WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?
WHY STORIES?
>> Marshall Ganz: FIRST OF ALL,
I GREW UP IN STORIES.
MY FATHER'S A RABBI.
AND I GREW UP WITH THE EXODUS
STORY AS A CHILD.
AND I WAS ALWAYS PUZZLED BY THE
FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID
THAT AT A CERTAIN POINT YOU WERE
SLAVES IN EGYPT.
I'D NEVER BEEN A SLAVE OR BEEN
TO EGYPT, THEY'D SAY TO THE
CHILDREN.
AND, BUT THEN I CAME TO REALIZE
THAT WHAT IT MEANT WAS THE STORY
REALLY WASN'T THE PROPERTY OF
ONE PEOPLE, TIME, OR PLACE.
AND THEN OUT TO THE FARM
WORKERS.
AND WE'RE IN THE RELIGIOUS
NARRATIVE.
I MEAN, ONE OF MY FIRST
ASSIGNMENTS IN THE FARM WORKERS
WAS TO ORGANIZE A MARCH FROM
DELANO TO SACRAMENTO.
BUT IT WASN'T A MARCH.
IT WAS A PEREGRINACIÓN.
IT WAS A PILGRIMAGE.
IT WAS AT LENT.
IT REACHED SACRAMENTO ON EASTER
SUNDAY.
IT WAS LIKE AN ENACTMENT OF THE
REDEMPTIVE NARRATIVE OF EASTER.
BUT IT WAS BUILT INTO THE
MOVEMENT THAT WE WERE BUILDING.
SO IN MY EXPERIENCE IN
ORGANIZING, IT WAS ALSO ALL
WITHIN NARRATIVE.
AND SO WE KIND OF KNEW THAT
NARRATIVE STORIES MATTERED.
AND THEY MATTERED TO THE HEART.
AND THEY WEREN'T THE WHOLE
STORY.
THE WHOLE STORY, SO TO SPEAK.
THE STRATEGY MATTERED, STRUCTURE
MATTERED, BUT NARRATIVE
MATTERED, THE MOTIVATION, THE
COURAGE.
>> Bill Moyers: UNTIL I READ
YOUR BOOK ABOUT CHAVEZ AND THE
STRIKERS, I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MUCH
OF THEIR OWN EFFORTS REVOLVED
AROUND STORIES.
BUT THEN WHEN I READ YOUR BOOK,
I REALIZED HOW THE STORIES THAT
THEY TOLD, THE STORIES THAT THEY
INHERITED, ADDED UP TO A STORY
THAT THEY WANTED TO LEAVE FOR
THEIR CHILDREN.
>> Marshall Ganz: SURE.
BUT I MEAN, THAT'S ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT DISTINGUISHES
MOVEMENTS FROM, LIKE, INTEREST
GROUPS.
MOVEMENTS HAVE NARRATIVES.
THEY TELL STORIES, BECAUSE THEY
ARE, THEY ARE NOT JUST ABOUT
REARRANGING ECONOMICS AND
POLITICS.
THEY ALSO REARRANGE MEANING.
AND THEY'RE NOT JUST ABOUT
REDISTRIBUTING THE GOODS.
THEY'RE ABOUT FIGURING OUT WHAT
IS GOOD.
SO THEY HAVE THIS CULTURAL PIECE
OF WORK THAT MOVEMENTS ARE
DOING, ALONG WITH THE ECONOMIC
AND THE POLITICAL.
NOT IN LIEU OF IT.
AND I THINK IT'S PARTICULARLY
IMPORTANT, BECAUSE DOING THAT
KIND OF WORK THAT MOVEMENTS DO
REQUIRES RISK-TAKING,
UNCERTAINTY, GOING UP AGAINST
THE ODDS.
AND THAT TAKES A LOT OF HOPE.
AND SO WHERE DO YOU GO FOR
HOPEFULNESS?
WHERE DO YOU GO FOR COURAGE?
WHERE DO YOU GO? YOU GO TO THOSE
MORAL RESOURCES THAT ARE FOUND
WITHIN NARRATIVES AND WITHIN
IDENTITY WORK AND WITHIN ALL
FAITH TRADITIONS, CULTURAL
TRADITIONS.
>> Bill Moyers: YOU KNOW,
CAMPBELL TOLD ME THAT THAT WAS
THE GREAT APPEAL TO HIM OF CARL
JUNG.
THAT JUNG WRAPPED HIS PSYCHOLOGY
INTO THE STORIES OF WHAT HAD
ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN HIS LIFE
AND, AND IN THE LIVES OF THE
PEOPLE SITTING IN FRONT OF HIM.
AND IF HE COULD GET SOMEBODY
INTO A STORY, HE KNEW THAT
PERSON WOULD DISCOVER WHO HE WAS
MORE LIKELY THAN IF HE DEALT
WITH JUST ABSTRACT IDEAS.
>> Marshall Ganz: BOY, IT IS SO
TRUE.
IT'S THE PARTICULAR.
SEE, WE OFTEN THINK, WE
ASSOCIATE UNDERSTANDING WITH
ABSTRACTION.
IT'S JUST THE OPPOSITE.
>> Bill Moyers: THAT'S RIGHT.
>> Marshall Ganz: THE PARTICULAR
THEN BECOMES THE PORTAL ON THE
TRANSCENDENT, BECAUSE IT'S
THROUGH THE PARTICULAR
EXPERIENCE THAT I'M ABLE THEN TO
COMMUNICATE THE EMOTIONAL
CONTENT OF THE VALUE THAT IS
MOVING ME.
YOU KNOW, MY FATHER WAS A
CHAPLAIN IN THE AMERICAN ARMY.
AND WE LIVED IN GERMANY AFTER
THE WAR FOR THREE YEARS.
YOU KNOW, MY FIFTH BIRTHDAY
PARTY WAS WHAT, HE WORKED A LOT
WITH WHAT WERE CALLED DPS.
>> Bill Moyers: DISPLACED
PERSONS.
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, MY FIFTH
BIRTHDAY PARTY WAS IN A CAMP OF,
A DP CAMP OF ALL CHILDREN.
AND MY MOTHER THOUGHT THAT I
SHOULD GIVE PRESENTS RATHER THAN
GET THEM.
WELL, I DIDN'T QUITE GET THAT.
AND I ACTUALLY THOUGHT IT WAS
KIND OF COOL THAT THERE WERE NO
PARENTS, UNTIL LATER I REALIZED
WHY THERE WERE NO PARENTS.
AND SO IT WAS, IT WAS SORT OF A
MOMENT AND THEN A DEEPER
UNDERSTANDING OF THAT MOMENT
LATER THAT SORT OF WAS A KIND OF
SOBERING EXPERIENCE AND HELPED
ME UNDERSTAND THE EMOTIONAL WORK
THAT'S THERE THAT STORIES DO.
>> Bill Moyers: HOW SO?
>> Marshall Ganz: IT HELPED ME
UNDERSTAND THAT DEALING WITH,
DEALING WITH FEAR IS PROBABLY
THE CENTRAL MORAL QUESTION WE
HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
BY MORAL, I MEAN, IF YOU THINK,
IF YOU THINK OF MORAL QUESTIONS
AS NOT BEING ABOUT PRINCIPLES,
BUT MORE WHAT JUNG CALLED "MORAL
SENTIMENT."
IN OTHER WORDS, HOW DO I LIVE
WITH EMPATHY AS OPPOSED TO
ALIENATION?
HOW DO I LIVE WITH A SENSE OF MY
OWN VALUE AS OPPOSED TO A
FEELING OF DEFICIENCY?
HOW DO I LIVE IN A SPIRIT OF
HOPE INSTEAD OF FEAR?
>> Bill Moyers: HOW TO BE IN THE
WORLD, RIGHT?
>> Marshall Ganz: HOW TO BE IN
THE WORLD AND CAPABLE OF MORAL
ENGAGEMENT WITH OTHER HUMAN
BEINGS IS SORT OF HOW I THINK OF
IT.
MAIMONIDES, THE 12TH CENTURY
JEWISH PHILOSOPHER DEFINED HOPE
AS, SAID, "BELIEF IN THE
PLAUSIBILITY OF THE POSSIBLE AS
OPPOSED TO THE NECESSITY OF THE
PROBABLE."
NOW LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN.
THAT TO BE A REALIST IS TO
RECOGNIZE THAT THE WORLD IS NOT
A DOMAIN IN WHICH THE PROBABLE
ALWAYS HAPPENS.
I MEAN, GOLIATH IS MORE LIKELY
TO WIN. BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT,
SOMETIMES DAVID DOES, YOU KNOW?
>> Bill Moyers: WAS THERE A TIME
YOU HAD TO DO THAT, WHEN YOU HAD
TO SUSPEND DISBELIEF AND SEE
THAT THE INEVITABLE WAS NOT A
NECESSITY, THAT IT WAS A
PROBABILITY?
>> Marshall Ganz: BOY, I YOU
KNOW, WELL, FIRST OF ALL
THINKING I CAN GET INTO HARVARD
IN THE FIRST PLACE FROM
BAKERSFIELD, LEAVING HARVARD TO
GO WORK IN MISSISSIPPI IS --
>> Bill Moyers: YOU LEFT BEFORE
YOU FINISHED YOUR STUDIES?
>> Marshall Ganz: YEAH, I HAD A
YEAR TO GO.
BUT SEE, WHEN I LEFT, IT WAS TO
JUST GO FOR THE SUMMER PROJECT.
BUT I FOUND A CALLING THERE.
>> Reporter: MARSHALL, WHAT ARE
YOUR MOTIVES FOR GOING DOWN TO
MISSISSIPPI THIS SUMMER?
>> Marshall Ganz: READING THE
PAPERS LAST YEAR, TALKING WITH
PEOPLE, AND HEARING ABOUT WHAT
WAS HAPPENING IN MISSISSIPPI AND
THE SOUTH, SHOOTING OF MEDGAR
EVANS AND OTHER EVENTS LIKE THAT
GENERATES SUCH A FEELING OF
OUTRAGE AND INJUSTICE THAT YOU
FEEL YOU MUST ACT.
>>> I FOUND THIS THING CALLED
ORGANIZING, WHICH I HAD NEVER
REALLY UNDERSTOOD OR HEARD OF.
AND IT WASN'T ABOUT CHARITY.
IT WASN'T ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
HELPING.
IT WAS ABOUT IT WAS ABOUT
JUSTICE.
IT WAS ABOUT WORKING WITH OTHER
PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT RESPECTED
AND ENHANCED THEIR AGENCY AND MY
OWN AT THE SAME TIME.
>> Bill Moyers: HOW DID YOU
LEARN THAT?
>> Marshall Ganz: THROUGH BEING
PART OF IT.
OUR INITIAL PROJECT, SO WE WERE
TRYING TO CLAIM VOTING RIGHTS
BECAUSE AFRICAN AMERICANS OF
COURSE, DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO
VOTE IN, ANY PRACTICAL RIGHT TO
VOTE IN MISSISSIPPI, ALABAMA,
MUCH OF GEORGIA, AND SO FORTH,
IN THOSE STATES, AT THAT TIME.
THE WORK WAS TO BUILD A PARALLEL
ORGANIZATION CALLED THE
MISSISSIPPI FREEDOM DEMOCRATIC
PARTY THAT WAS BECAUSE THE
REGULAR DEMOCRATIC PARTY
EXCLUDED BLACKS.
SO OUR IDEA WAS WE WERE GOING TO
BUILD A PARALLEL ONE, CHOOSE A
DELEGATION, GO TO THE ATLANTIC
CITY DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION,
1964, CHALLENGE THE RACIST
DEMOCRATS, AND REPLACE THEM WITH
OUR DEMOCRATS.
AND THAT WAS GOING TO BE A BLOW
FOR THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
SO THE WORK WAS GOING TO
PEOPLE'S HOUSES, BLACK PEOPLE,
TALKING WITH THEM, REGISTERING
THE FREEDOM DEMOCRATIC PARTY,
HAVE A HOUSE MEETING, COME TO A
CAUCUS, GET ELECTED.
WORKING WITH PEOPLE TO FIND
COURAGE, TO FIND SOLIDARITY, TO
FIND A SENSE OF HOPEFULNESS, TO
STAND UP TO PRETTY SCARY STUFF.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THREE OF OUR
GROUP WERE KILLED BEFORE WE EVEN
LEFT OXFORD, OHIO.
THAT WAS GOODMAN, CHANEY, AND
SCHWERNER.
AND SO IT WAS, I'VE OFTEN
THOUGHT ABOUT THAT BOOK BY PAUL
TILLICH, "LOVE, POWER, AND
JUSTICE."
>> Bill Moyers: "LOVE, POWER,
AND JUSTICE."
>> Marshall Ganz: AND WHERE HE
ARGUES THAT POWER WITHOUT LOVE
CAN NEVER BE JUST, BUT SIMILARLY
LOVE THAT DOESN'T TAKE POWER
SERIOUSLY CAN NEVER ACHIEVE
JUSTICE. AND THAT WAS, I THINK,
WHAT I LEARNED.
>> Bill Moyers: YOU'VE SAID THAT
WHEN YOU TELL A STORY, THE STORY
BECOMES THREE STORIES.
>> Marshall Ganz: YES. WELL,
WHEN WE DO PUBLIC, SO PUBLIC
NARRATIVE, IS LIKE A LEADERSHIP
SKILL OF MOVING PEOPLE TO PUBLIC
ACTION.
SO THERE'S A STORY OF SELF,
WHICH IS USING NARRATIVE TO
COMMUNICATE WHY I'VE BEEN
CALLED.
SO I TELL STORIES THAT CAN
COMMUNICATE THE VALUES THAT MOVE
ME.
A STORY OF US IS USING NARRATIVE
TO CREATE A SENSE OF THE VALUES
WE SHARE AS A COMMUNITY. AND
THEN THE STORY OF NOW IS DO THEY
EXPERIENCE THE CHALLENGE TO
THOSE VALUES THAT REQUIRES
ACTION NOW? SO SORT OF THREE
PIECES.
>> Bill Moyers: SO THAT'S WHAT
MARTIN LUTHER KING MEANT WHEN HE
TALKED ABOUT THE URGENCY OF NOW
AT RIVERSIDE CHURCH?
>> Marshall Ganz: THAT'S EXACTLY
RIGHT.
AND YOU'LL SEE IN THAT TALK HIS
CALLING AND THEN HE REMINDS US
OF WHAT WE'RE CALLED TO AS
AFRICAN AMERICANS, AS WHITE
AMERICANS, AND AS AMERICANS.
>> Martin Luther King Jr.: "WE
ARE CONFRONTED WITH THE FIERCE
URGENCY OF NOW.
IN THIS UNFOLDING CONUNDRUM OF
LIFE AND HISTORY, THAT IS SUCH A
THING AS BEING TOO LATE AND IF
WE WILL ONLY MAKE THE RIGHT
CHOICE, WE WILL BE ABLE TO
TRANSFORM THIS PENDING COSMIC
ELEGY INTO A CREATIVE PSALM OF
PEACE.
IF WE WILL MAKE THE RIGHT
CHOICE, WE WILL BE ABLE TO
TRANSFORM THE JANGLING DISCORDS
OF OUR WORLD INTO A BEAUTIFUL
SYMPHONY OF BROTHERHOOD.
IF WE WILL BUT MAKE THE RIGHT
CHOICE, WE WILL BE ABLE TO SPEED
UP THE DAY, ALL OVER AMERICA AND
ALL OVER THE WORLD, WHEN
"JUSTICE WILL ROLL DOWN LIKE
WATERS, AND RIGHTEOUSNESS LIKE A
MIGHTY STREAM."
>> Marshall Ganz: IT'S SO
AMAZING THE WAY HE'S ABLE TO
SPEAK THE, THE CHRISTIAN
LANGUAGE, BUT IN A WAY THAT'S
INCLUSIVE AND NOT EXCLUSIVE.
IT'S REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.
IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.
AND THEN AND THEN BECAUSE WE
SHARE THOSE VALUES, GUESS WHAT,
FOLKS, WE FACE THE FIERCE
URGENCY OF A NOW THAT REQUIRES
ACTION.
THAT'S WHAT PUBLIC NARRATIVE IS.
>> Bill Moyers: IS IT TRUE THAT
THE SLOGAN FOR CESAR CHAVEZ AND
HIS FARM WORKERS WAS "SI SE
PUEDE"?
>> Marshall Ganz: SI SE PUEDE,
YEAH.
>> Bill Moyers: WHICH TRANSLATED
LITERALLY INTO OBAMA'S --
>> Marshall Ganz: "YES, WE CAN."
OH, YOU BETCHA.
>> Bill Moyers: IS THAT RIGHT?
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, "SI SE
PUEDE" CAME IN ARIZONA,
1972 ARIZONA HAD A GOVERNOR JACK
WILLIAMS THAT PASSED A LAW THAT
DENIED FARM WORKERS THE RIGHT TO
ORGANIZE, BOYCOTT.
I MEAN, IT WAS A TERRIBLE LAW.
AND SO WE HAD TO FIGURE OUT WERE
WE GOING TO CHALLENGE IT OR NOT?
SO WE ALL WENT TO ARIZONA TO
CHALLENGE IT.
WE GOT THERE.
AND WENT OUT TALKING TO PEOPLE.
AND DOLORES HUERTA ACTUALLY CAME
BACK.
WE WERE MEETING IN A HOTEL/MOTEL
ROOM.
SHE SAID, "I'VE BEEN TALKING TO
ALL THESE EVERYWHERE.
AND EVERYWHERE I GO, PEOPLE SAY,
'NO SE PUEDE,' 'NO SE PUEDE.'"
SHE GOES, "AH, YOU CAN'T DO IT.
YOU CAN'T DO IT, YOU KNOW?
IT'S JUST TOO, YOU KNOW?
AND WE GOT TO, WE GOT TO ANSWER
THAT.
WE GOT TO SAY, 'SI SE PUEDE.'"
AND SO THAT BECAME THE SLOGAN IN
THAT CAMPAIGN WAS "SI SE PUEDE."
YES, IT CAN BE DONE.
AND THAT THEN BECAME A FARM
WORKER MOVEMENT SLOGAN.
"SI SE PUEDE."
SO IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHEN OBAMA
LOST THAT NIGHT, AND THERE WAS A
LOT OF THAT TALK GOING ON
AROUND.
>> Barack Obama: GENERATIONS OF
AMERICANS HAVE RESPONDED WITH A
SIMPLE CREED THAT SUMS OF THE
SPIRIT OF A PEOPLE.
>> Marshall Ganz: THEN COMES
OUT, "YES, WE CAN."
WELL, THAT'S "SI SE PUEDE."
>> Barack Obama: YES WE CAN.
YES WE CAN.
>> Marshall Ganz: THAT WAS A
GREAT MOMENT.
THAT WAS WHAT SORT OF RAISED
SUCH HOPES ABOUT HIS PRESIDENCY.
>> Bill Moyers: DID PEOPLE COUNT
TOO MUCH ON HIS CHARISMA AND
DIDN'T ASSESS HIS INEXPERIENCE
SUFFICIENTLY.
>> Marshall Ganz: OH, IN
RETROSPECT, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY
SO, YOU KNOW?
BUT I DON'T KNOW, I THINK
THERE'S PLENTY OF RESPONSIBILITY
TO GO AROUND.
I MEAN, I THINK THERE WAS TOO
MUCH READINESS TO JUST LEAVE IT
UP TO OBAMA.
AND I THINK THAT THOSE OF US WHO
WANTED TO DO MORE ABOUT ECONOMIC
JUSTICE AND IMMIGRATION AND
CLIMATE CHANGE NEEDED TO DO
MORE.
WE HAD TO BE CONTENTIOUS.
THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.
IT'S LIKE THIS IDEA THAT
CONTENTIOUSNESS IS SOMEHOW ALIEN
TO DEMOCRACY AND THAT CONSENSUS
IS SOMEHOW WHAT DEMOCRACY IS
ABOUT AND THAT POLARIZATION IS
BAD, PARALYSIS IS BAD.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE SAUL
ALINSKY SAYS, "ORGANIZERS HAVE
TO BE WELL-INTEGRATED SCHIZOIDS,
BECAUSE YOU HAVTO POLARIZE TO
MOBILIZE AND DEPOLARIZE TO
SETTLE.
BUT WITHOUT POLARIZING YOU'RE
NEVER GOING TO MOBILIZE
ANYTHING."
AND YEAH, THEN THERE'S A TIME TO
NEGOTIATE.
AND I THINK WE'RE REALLY SCREWED
UP ON THAT RIGHT NOW.
>> Bill Moyers: IT'S ALWAYS BEEN
STRUGGLE AND CONFLICT AND
WINNERS AND LOSERS THAT MOVE US
FORWARD OR BACKWARDS.
>> Marshall Ganz: THAT'S THE
HEART OF DEMOCRACY, DEMOCRACY IS
A SYSTEM OF CONTENTION.
I MEAN, OF CONSTRUCTIVE
CONTENTION WHEN IT WORKS.
>>> WHAT DID THE FARM WORKERS
WANT?
YOU REMEMBER IN THE FARM WORKER
STORY?
THOSE THAT READ THAT ONE?
YOU REMEMBER IN THIS CONTEXT, IN
THIS MOMENT WHAT THEY WANTED?
>> IS IT RECOGNITION FOR UFW?
>> Marshall Ganz: YEAH, IT WAS
RECOGNITION AND IT WOUND UP
BEING RECOGNITION FROM A
PARTICULAR EMPLOYER, SCHENLEY
INDUSTRIES, A BIG LIQUOR COMPANY
IN VALLEJO.
AND UNION RECOGNITION MEANS A
CONTRACT SIGNED BETWEEN THE
WORKERS AND THE UNIONS
SPECIFYING WAGES, HOURS, WORKING
CONDITIONS AND ALL THE REST.
VERY, VERY CONCRETE OBJECTIVE.
RIGHT?
BUT THAT WAS, LIKE, THE FOCUS OF
THEIR EFFORTS SO THAT THEY COULD
THEN MOVE TOWARD THE BIGGER
GOALS OF BROADER JUSTICE AND ALL
THE REST OF IT.
AND SO THE WHOLE POINT ABOUT
OUTCOMES IS SPECIFYING THEM
CLEARLY ENOUGH THAT YOU CAN
ACTUALLY FOCUS IN AND COMMIT TO
MAKING IT HAPPEN OR NOT.
AND, AND I THINK A LOT OF
PROJECT ARE STRUGGLING WITH THAT
RIGHT NOW.
IT'S HOW TO SPECIFY THE PLACE
BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, JUSTICE OUT
THERE, GOODNESS IN THE WORLD
AND, LIKE, MY NEXT MEETING.
>> Bill Moyers: SUPPOSE ONE OF
THOSE STUDENTS SAID TO YOU,
"PROFESSOR GANZ, I KNOW THAT THE
FARM WORKERS WERE OUT-FINANCED
AND OUTMANNED.
AND I KNOW THEY WERE OPPOSED BY
BUSINESS OWNERS AND OTHER LABOR
LEADERS SPURNED THEM.
YET, YOU SAY THAT THEY WORKED
OUT A SUCCESSFUL, GRASSROOTS
STRATEGY TO ORGANIZE ILLITERATE
GRAPE PICKERS.
IS THERE ANY LESSON IN THAT?
>> Marshall Ganz: THE LESSON
WOULD BE TO LOOK AT HOW IT WAS
THEY FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO IT.
SEE, IT'S SORT OF LIKE YOU DON'T
COPY THAT.
BUT YOU SORT OF LOOK AT THE
DEPTH OF MOTIVATION THEY BROUGHT
TO IT, THE CREATIVITY.
HOW DID THEY FIGURE OUT THEIR
STRATEGY?
HOW DID THEY UNDERSTAND POWER?
WHAT DID THEY UNDERSTAND ABOUT
IT?
HOW DID THEY CONTINUE TO RENEW
THEIR SPIRIT THAT THEY WERE ABLE
TO KEEP MOVING FORWARD.
>> Bill Moyers: HOW DID THEY?
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, THERE
WAS A LOT OF THIS HEART WORK, A
LOT OF THE NARRATIVE, THE
STORYTELLING, A LOT OF THE
CELEBRATORY, A LOT OF THE
NURTURING OF THE HEART.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IT TOOK US
FIVE YEARS TO RUN A GRAPE
BOYCOTT.
AND WE HAD TO REINVENT THAT
THING EVERY YEAR.
AND EVERY YEAR, YOU'RE GOING
BACK IN AND SAYING, "OKAY, WE
GOT TO START AGAIN." BUT YOU
FIND IN EACH OTHER, IN THE
SOLIDARITY, IN THE MYTHS IF YOU
WISH THAT THAT FEED YOU THE
CAPACITY TO KEEP GOING.
>> Bill Moyers: I REMEMBER WHAT
YOU WROTE ONCE THAT YOU HAD
LEARNED IN MISSISSIPPI DURING
THE SUMMER OF 1964.
YOU SAID ALL THE INEQUALITIES
BETWEEN BLACKS AND WHITES WERE
DRIVEN BY A DEEPER INEQUALITY,
THE INEQUALITY OF POWER.
THAT SEEMS TO ME, THE
FUNDAMENTAL REALITY OF AMERICAN
LIFE TODAY.
>> Marshall Ganz: YEAH, I THINK
THE POLITICAL INEQUALITY AND THE
ECONOMIC INEQUALITY AND A KIND
OF CULTURAL INEQUALITY THAT SORT
OF ALL REINFORCE ONE ANOTHER IS
AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM, OBVIOUSLY.
I MEAN, THAT'S SORT OF WHAT
WE'RE TRYING TO DEAL WITH.
WELL WE'RE SORT OF WAY BEYOND
THAT.
AND --
>> Bill Moyers: ONE MAN, ONE
VOTE, ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE HAS
BEEN, HAS BEEN OVERWHELMED BY
$100,000 AND A MILLION DOLLARS.
>> Marshall Ganz: AND IT'S NOT
EVEN JUST THE MONEY.
IF YOU LIVE IN A SWING STATE,
YOUR VOTE COUNTS SO MUCH MORE
THAN IF YOU LIVE IN NEW YORK OR
ILLINOIS OR CALIFORNIA, WHEN IT
COMES TO ELECTING A PRESIDENT.
IF YOU LIVE IN A SWING DISTRICT,
WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTING A
MEMBER OF CONGRESS, YOUR VOTE
COUNTS.
IF YOU LIVE IN A DISTRICT THAT'S
BEEN GERRYMANDERED SO IT'S ALL
DEMOCRATS OR ALL REPUBLICANS,
YOUR VOTE DOES NOT COUNT.
SO WHEN YOU REALLY LOOK AT WHOSE
VOTES COUNT, IT'S A VERY, VERY
SMALL PROPORTION.
SO WE HAVE SOME DEEP STRUCTURAL
FLAWS THAT GO ALL THE WAY BACK
TO THE BEGINNING THAT AREN'T,
THEY DON'T, IT'S NOT ABOUT US AS
A PEOPLE OR OUR CULTURE, OUR
BELIEFS.
WE'RE OPERATING WITHIN IN A SET
OF POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS THAT
DISTORT AND ACTUALLY WARP OUR
CAPACITY TO EXPRESS OUR BELIEFS.
MAYBE WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS AN
EQUAL VOICE AMENDMENT TO
GUARANTEE THAT EACH VOTE
ACTUALLY HAD EQUAL WEIGHT.
THAT'D BE PRETTY RADICAL.
AND IF WE ACTUALLY DESIGNED A
SYSTEM THAT DID THAT, NOW, YOU
KNOW, WOULD WE GET SOMETHING
LIKE THAT TOMORROW?
NO, PROBABLY NOT.
BUT, BUT I GUESS MY POINT IS
THAT, THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF
SOURCES OF ENERGY AND CHANGE IN
A COUNTRY, NOT TO MENTION THE
WORLD.
A LOT OF IT IS GENERATIONALLY
DRIVEN.
IT'S IN PLACES THAT MAY BE
UNEXPECTED.
>> Bill Moyers: LET ME COME
CLOSER TO WHERE YOU AND I ARE
TODAY, OCCUPY WALL STREET DID
PULL ECONOMIC INEQUALITY OUT OF
THE CLOSET AND PUT IT AT THE
BREAKFAST TABLE, THE LUNCH
TABLE, THE DINNER TABLE, AND THE
POLITICAL ROUNDTABLES ON SUNDAY.
BUT IT DIDN'T HANG AROUND TO
FIGHT FOR IT.
WHAT HAPPENED?
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, I THINK,
I THINK OCCUPY MADE A GREAT
CONTRIBUTION IN THAT IT DID WHAT
YOU JUST SAID.
IT-IT TOOK ECONOMIC INEQUALITY,
ECONOMIC JUSTICE AND MADE IT
LEGITIMATE.
BUT THEY GOT STUCK.
I MEAN, THEY GOT STUCK ON A
TACTIC, WITHOUT A STRATEGY THAT
WENT BEYOND A TACTIC.
AND, YOU KNOW, ONE TACTIC
DOESN'T BUILD A MOVEMENT.
IT TAKES, IT TAKES VENUES IN
WHICH PEOPLE CAN STRATEGIZE
ABOUT HOW TO MOVE THE BALL
FORWARD.
YOU KNOW, I MENTIONED AT THE
BEGINNING SORT OF THESE THREE
ELEMENTS OF STORY, STRATEGY, AND
STRUCTURE THAT YOU SORT OF NEED
TO BUILD A MOVEMENT, AN
ORGANIZATION.
YOU GOT TO HAVE YOUR, THE
NARRATIVE IS THE "WHY" WE'RE
DOING IT.
AND THEN THE STRATEGY IS HOW
WE'RE DOING IT, NOT JUST ONE
TACTIC, BUT HOW, WHAT'S OUR
THEORY OF CHANGE.
WHAT'S OUR THEORY OF HOW WE'RE
GOING TO USE OUR RESOURCES TO
INFLUENCE THOSE SOURCES OF
POWER.
AND THEN HOW ARE WE, WHAT'S OUR
STRUCTURE THROUGH WHICH WE'RE
FIGURING ALL THIS STUFF OUT AND
WORKING AT IT?
AND SO THEY HAD PROBLEMS THERE.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE CONFUSE
STRUCTURE WITH OPPRESSION.
AND JO FREEMAN WROTE A GREAT
PIECE, THIS --
>> Bill Moyers: THE FEMINIST?
>> Marshall Ganz: THE FEMINIST
SOCIOLOGIST, CALLED "THE TYRANNY
OF STRUCTURELESSNESS" AND I HAVE
ALL MY STUDENTS READ IT, WHERE
SHE ARGUES, YOU THINK
STRUCTURELESSNESS, YOU'RE
KIDDING YOURSELF.
ANY TIME A GROUP OF PEOPLE GET
TOGETHER, THEY'RE GOING TO
CREATE A STRUCTURE. THE
DIFFERENCE IS WHETHER IT'S
VISIBLE OR INVISIBLE, WHETHER
IT'S ACCOUNTABLE OR NOT, AND
WHETHER IT'S OPEN AND ABOVE
BOARD AND, OR WHETHER IT'S ALL
FACTIONALIZED AND PERSONALISTIC.
AND SO YOU CHOOSE WHAT YOU WANT.
AND I THINK IT'S REALLY HONEST.
AND SO THE REJECTION OF
STRUCTURE IS A SORT OF REJECTION
OF TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR
SELF-GOVERNANCE.
>> Bill Moyers: SO YOU TALK
ABOUT THE POWER OF STORY AND FOR
THE LAST 40 YEARS, THE STORY OF
THE FREE MARKET HAS BEEN THE
TRIUMPHANT STORY IN AMERICAN
CULTURE.
>> Marshall Ganz: IT REALLY IS,
YOU KNOW? AND IT'S POWERFUL,
BECAUSE IT HAS A MORAL DIMENSION
AND IT HAS A POLITICAL DIMENSION
AND IT HAS AN ECONOMIC
DIMENSION.
IT'S SORT OF LIKE THAT THE
MARKET MEANS WE'RE ALL FREE TO
MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES, SO ISN'T
THAT GREAT, BECAUSE WE WANT TO
BE FREE.
AND IT'S ALL ABOUT CHOICES.
AND POLITICALLY, WELL IT'S ALL
BASED ON PEOPLE MAKING THEIR
CHOICES.
AND SO THAT'S DEMOCRATIC.
AND ECONOMICALLY, WELL, WE ALL
KNOW IT'S EFFICIENT, RIGHT,
BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MARKETS WORK.
IT'S, AND THE PROBLEM IS EVERY
ONE OF THOSE CLAIMS IS
FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED AND
FUNDAMENTALLY AN ACT OF FAITH.
I MEAN, HARVEY *** WROTE THIS
THING ABOUT THE MARKET IS GOD.
BUT THE BIG QUESTION IS WHERE'S
THE MISSING ALTERNATIVE COUNTER
TO THAT?
AND I THINK THAT IS AN ENORMOUS
INTELLECTUAL CHALLENGE FOR OUR
TIME RIGHT NOW. WHERE'S THAT
ALTERNATIVE?
>> Bill Moyers: WE NEED A NEW
STORY?
>> Marshall Ganz: WE NEED A NEW
STORY.
BUT IT'S ALSO A NEW WAY OF
DESCRIBING OUR ECONOMIC
CHALLENGES AND OUR POLITICAL
CHALLENGES THAT EMPHASIZES NOT
THIS IDEA OF WHAT EACH
INDIVIDUAL COMPETES WITH, EACH
OTHER INDIVIDUAL AS THE ANSWER,
BUT THE WAYS IN WHICH WE
COOPERATE AND COLLABORATE WITH
ONE ANOTHER AS THE ANSWER.
YOU KNOW, ALBERT HIRSCHMAN, THE
DEVELOPMENT ECONOMIST WROTE THIS
BOOK A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO, I'M
SURE YOU KNOW ABOUT IT, "EXIT,
VOICE, AND LOYALTY."
AND SORT OF THE IDEA WAS, OKAY,
SO YOU GOT AN INSTITUTION.
AND IT'S SCREWING UP.
AND SO ONE WAY TO FIX IT IS TO
EXERCISE VOICE.
THE OTHER WAY IS YOU CAN EXIT.
THE MARKET SOLUTIONS ARE ALL
EXIT SOLUTIONS.
>> Bill Moyers: EXPLAIN THAT TO
ME.
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, SO YOU
DON'T LIKE THE WAY THE SCHOOLS
WORK, EXIT, MAKE YOUR OWN OVER
HERE.
AND THAT WAY YOU EXERCISE
CHOICE.
YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY PUBLIC
HEALTH WORKS, EXIT, OVER HERE,
MAKE YOUR OWN.
NOW THE ONLY PROBLEM IS YOU CAN
ONLY EXIT AND MAKE YOUR OWN IF
YOU GOT THE MONEY TO DO IT.
AND SO THE RESULT IS THAT YOU
CREATE THESE PARALLEL SYSTEMS OF
ELITE SYSTEMS THAT ARE, YOU
KNOW, THAT FRAGMENT THE WHOLE.
THE PUBLIC GETS POORER AND
POORER AND POORER, AND YOU
CREATE ALL THESE LITTLE ISOLATED
GOLDEN GHETTOS ALL AROUND OF
PRIVILEGE.
AND THE FOCUS IS ON HOW DO WE
FIND MARKET SOLUTIONS, MARKET
SOLUTIONS, MARKET -- WHEN WE
SHOULD BUT SAYING, HOW DO WE
FIND MORE EFFECTIVE WAYS TO
EXERCISE VOICE? HOW CAN WE HAVE
MORE, MORE EFFECTIVE PUBLIC
DELIBERATION?
HOW CAN WE BRING MORE PEOPLE
INTO THE PROCESS?
HOW CAN WE CREATE THE VENUES
WHERE PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY LEARN
AND DELIBERATE WITH ONE ANOTHER?
>> Bill Moyers: CAN YOU TAKE
THIS ONE STEP FURTHER OR BEYOND
GOVERNMENT OVER TO THE
LEADERSHIP OF OTHER
INSTITUTIONS, BUSINESS LEADERS,
EDUCATIONAL LEADERS?
I MEAN, HOW DO WE WRITE A
NARRATIVE THAT INCLUDES THEM IN
THIS NEW STORY OF COLLABORATION,
COOPERATION?
>> Marshall Ganz: YOU KNOW KARL
POLANYI'S BOOK, "THE GREAT
TRANSFORMATION," WRITTEN IN
1941, SORT OF NAILED IT WHEN HE
SAID, IF YOU HAVE A GOOD THAT
CAN, WHERE PRICE CAPTURES VALUE,
YOU CAN MARKETIZE IT.
AND WHERE PRICE DOES NOT CAPTURE
VALUE YOU CANNOT MARKETIZE IT.
AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT LABOR
AND LAND WHEN HE WAS WRITING IN
1941.
AND HE WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN
THE, THE PROBLEM OF THE OPEN
MARKET SYSTEM AFTER WORLD WAR I
THAT HAD WIPED OUT ALL SORTS OF
SOCIAL STRUCTURES THAT CLEARED
THE WAY FOR THE RISE OF FASCISM
IN EUROPE.
I MEAN, THIS IS THE CONTEXT HE
WAS WRITING IN.
HE WAS SAYING, "SO THE OPEN
MARKET SYSTEM WAS ALLOWED TO BE
A SOLVENT THAT GROUND EVERYTHING
DOWN."
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T RESPECT
VALUES OTHER THAN PRICE VALUES.
NOW HOW DO YOU PUT A PRICE ON
EDUCATION, REALLY?
HOW DO YOU PUT A PRICE ON
HEALTH, REALLY?
HOW DO YOU PUT A PRICE ON ART,
REALLY?
NOW WHEN WE PRICE THESE THINGS,
WE UNDERMINE THEIR VALUE.
AND SO THAT'S WHY WE NEED
CHURCHES.
THAT'S WHY WE NEED SCHOOLS WHOSE
VALUE ISN'T BASED ON PRICING,
IT'S BASED ON A DIFFERENT SET OF
UNDERSTANDING AND THE RESOURCES
THAT IT GENERATE DOESN'T DEPEND
ON PRICING.
SO I DON'T KNOW.
THERE'S POTENTIALS OUT THERE.
BUT I THINK SOMEHOW WE NEED TO
GET THIS INTO THE, WE NEED TO
GET INTO THIS DEBATE.
WE NEED TO GET INTO THIS
ARGUMENT AND HAVE IT BE ABOUT
SOMETHING REALLY SUBSTANTIVE.
AND NOT GET DRAWN INTO THESE,
"OH, WE'RE TOO POLARIZED" OR
SOMETHING.
WE NEED TO BE MORE POLARIZED,
BUT POLARIZED AROUND THE RIGHT
THINGS.
>> Bill Moyers: IS THERE ANY
KIND OF ORGANIZING LIKE THAT
GOING ON?
>> Marshall Ganz: THERE'S A LOT
OF ORGANIZING GOING.
I'M PRIVILEGED TO GET TO SEE IT,
BECAUSE I WORK WITH YOUNG
PEOPLE.
WITHIN THE IMMIGRANT WORLD, THE
DREAMERS HAVE DONE SOME GREAT
STUFF.
I MEAN, THEY DO THE ORGANIZING,
THE HOUSE MEETINGS, THE ONE ON
ONES, ALL THAT GOOD OLD
ORGANIZING STUFF.
YOU KNOW, THE CREW OF YOUNG
ORGANIZERS CAME OUT OF THE DEAN
CAMPAIGN IN 2003 IN --
>> Bill Moyers: HOWARD DEAN?
>> Marshall Ganz: YEAH, 2003,
2004, AND THAT CROWD THAT HAVE,
YOU KNOW, PERCOLATED THROUGH
OBAMA AND ALL THAT IN A VARIETY
OF DIFFERENT WAYS.
BUT THEY'VE BROUGHT SOUND
ORGANIZING TECHNIQUES INTO
ELECTORAL POLITICS IN A WAY THAT
HAD DISAPPEARED.
IT HAD ALL BEEN MARKETING.
IT WAS ALL MARKETING.
AND NOT THAT MARKETING'S NOT
THERE NOW IN A BIG WAY.
BUT THE CONFUSION BETWEEN
MARKETING AND MOVEMENT BUILDING
IS REALLY A BIG ONE. AND I THINK
THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THE
ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS REALLY,
REALLY MISSED THE BOAT ON.
I THINK THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY
COULD MARKET THEIR WAY TO
LEGISLATION.
WHAT I MEAN IS THAT THROUGH
POLLING AND ADVERTISING, THEY
COULD MAKE WHAT, THE CHANGES
THEY WANTED PALATABLE TO ENOUGH
OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY COULD,
IN THAT WAY, CREATE ENOUGH OF A
GROUND THAT THEY WOULD GET THE
LEGISLATION.
THAT'S A MARKETING PROPOSITION.
MOVEMENT BUILDING IS YOU KNOW
THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A MAJORITY.
WHAT YOU GOT TO DO IS BUILD
ENOUGH OF A CONSTITUENCY THAT
YOU CAN DEVELOP THE POWER YOU
NEED IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE WHAT
YOU WANT.
AND SO WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS
ENGAGING PEOPLE, WHO ENGAGE
OTHER PEOPLE, WHO ENGAGE OTHER
PEOPLE.
AND YOU BUILD A MOVEMENT THAT
WAY.
>> Bill Moyers: LOOKING BACK ON
YOUR LIFE, IS THERE A CORE TO
IT?
IS THERE A COMMON DENOMINATOR?
>> Marshall Ganz: THERE WERE
THREE QUESTIONS POSED BY A 1st
CENTURY JERUSALEM SCHOLAR RABBI
HILLEL, WHEN ASKED "HOW DO WE,
HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE
TO DO IN THE WORLD?"
AND HE RESPONDED WITH THREE
QUESTIONS.
THE FIRST ONE'S TO ASK YOURSELF,
"IF I AM NOT FOR MYSELF, WHO
WILL BE FOR ME?" IT'S NOT A
SELFISH QUESTION, BUT IT IS A
SELF-REGARDING QUESTION.
SORT OF SAYING, "ASK YOURSELF
WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT, WHAT YOU
VALUE, WHAT YOU HAVE TO
CONTRIBUTE, WHAT --"
BUT THEN THE SECOND QUESTION IS,
"IF I AM FOR MYSELF ALONE, WHAT
AM I?"
BUT IT, WHICH IS, IT'S TO EVEN
BE A WHO AND NOT A WHAT IS TO
RECOGNIZE THAT WE ARE IN THE
WORLD IN RELATIONSHIP WITH
OTHERS AND THAT OUR CAPACITY TO
REALIZE OUR OWN OBJECTIVES IS
INEXTRICABLY WRAPPED UP WITH THE
CAPACITY OF OTHERS TO REALIZE
THEIRS.
AND FINALLY, "IF NOT NOW, WHEN?"
THE TIME FOR ACTION IS ALWAYS
NOW, BECAUSE IT'S OFTEN ONLY
THROUGH ACTION THAT WE CAN LEARN
WHAT WE NEED TO LEARN IN ORDER
TO BE ABLE TO ACT EFFECTIVELY IN
THE WAYS THAT WE INTEND.
AND THE FACT THAT THEY'RE
QUESTIONS IS ALSO REALLY
IMPORTANT TO ME, BECAUSE IT
SUGGESTS THAT THIS WORK, THIS
WORK OF ORGANIZING, LEADERSHIP
IS NOT ABOUT KNOWING, IT'S ABOUT
LEARNING.
AND IT'S ABOUT ASKING AND IT'S
ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS
ABOUT DEALING WITH THE
UNCERTAIN.
IT IS ABOUT PROBING THE UNKNOWN.
IT'S NOT ABOUT CONTROL.
IT'S ABOUT, IT'S ABOUT LEARNING
THROUGH PURPOSEFUL EXPERIENCE.
AND SO THAT'S KIND OF, I THINK,
WHAT I'VE TRIED TO, AS I LOOK
BACK, WHAT I'VE TRIED TO LEARN,
TO TEACH, TO DO, TO PRACTICE IS
HOW TO BE THAT KIND OF A LEARNER
AND TEACHER.
>> Bill Moyers: MARSHALL GANZ, I
LOOK FORWARD TO THE NEXT CHAPTER
OF THE STORY. THANK YOU FOR
SHARING YOUR TIME AND IDEAS WITH
ME.
LOOK FORWARD TO THE NEXT CHAPTER
OF THE STORY. THANK YOU FOR