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And I'm now predominantly a theatre director although I was also an actor. And I still,
in theory, I'm still an actor. Hehehehe... And were you born in the UK?
Yes. Yes, I was born in Birmingham. But my parents are from Pakistan and I was the first
child. Five boys, I was the first one to be born in the UK. Everyone else came over from
Pakistan So how did you get involved in theatre?
In theatre? Em, that's a complicated story. I'm going to give you the brief version, and
the brief version. And the brief version wi, is that, em, my father died when we were quite
young. Er and my second eldest brother sort of took over the father 'figure' in the in
the house. Em, and life wasn't easy after my father passed away. And actually the, the
main source of joy for us, as a as a family was, was the arts. And and my my second eldest
brother was incredibly interested, in a kind, almost like a renaissance sense, in all kinds
of learning. Em, theoretical physics, em, opera, er theatre, Shakespeare in particular
but I mean all all kinds of theatre. Em and we would access that stuff, either through
the the books, or through the TV, because we never had enough money when I was growing
up to actually go and see the live events very often. Em, so, my my interest in, in
theatre in particular, er, developed later but I had an interest in it from from as long
as I can remember really. And and in classical music, and in er opera, and literature generally.
Em, however, I, what I was pursuing academically was a degree in maths. Er, and, potentially,
a, a life in in sports. In cricket. Em, but, when I, but I was ill for two years and had,
quite a sort of serious, em, case of, er, er...glandular fever, and then depression
after that, and I reassessed everything that I was doing and why I was doing it, er and
began, and as a result some vocal problems because of the depression, er I went to see
a voice thera therapist and she suggested that when I went back to university that I
join the drama society. Er, so I had a medical reason, hehe, to do drama. Er, and when I
went back there I I auditioned for a production of em, er, Twelfth Night, er, and, the first
day in rehearsals was for me, like a Damascan conversion. It was an extraordinary image
of how I think people can, can live with each other, coexist across difference, em through
love and generosity. Em, and I was completely enthralled to it. And, I don't know why I
felt enabled but I...I suggested to them that their next production should be The Homecoming
and I wanted to direct it. And I thought my, and I think my only qualification was that
I, cared so much about it. Er that seemed at the time the only, the only reason why
I I felt able to to to, em, to to to lead that project. And then, I mean it was it was
like a rapidly developing disease, hehe, through my body. I I I i could not stop doing it,
acting and directing. Em, so I mean it it was at university tha I started as a practitioner
to to to sort of, em, take a take a real interest in it. And I gave up my degree course. I didn't
complete it, er, and went out into the world much to the er em em annoyance and worry of
my family. So, but they, they did support you?
They they they did. I mean, financially they couldn't support me very very much just because
we were still getting on our feet, em, but emotionally, intellectually, er, absolutely.
I mean they were very worried. It was a, it was a silly decision. Hehehe, but it was a
sincere one. Er, and I and I, and that has always been the the benchmark of their support.
So do you find that you are treated as a South Asian person, em, in the industry?
Hh, er...I didn't think I I when I actually consciously mitigated, I've tried to to fight
that that cat that categorization of me because I don't think it does me justice. I think
whenever I, think of myself in that way, and in the way that's defined, I always feel like
a bit of an imposter. Er, I mean I was, I was reading Dickens at at at the age of ten,
nine, em, and it's it's predominantly English literature that that that em has kind of constructed
my intellectual world view. But also, you know, western artforms like opera, I mean
all, all of that stuff is stuff that that that's influenced me. Yes, there are the stories
of of my mother's world, my father's world, and that mythic world beyond, em, and obviously
I I was I was brought up in a in a social context where I was around rituals of life
in in a Pakistani community in Birmingham. Em, and I, I'm, I'm sure that all all of that
has also influenced who I am, but in terms of the work that I've done, and the work that
I have interpreted, certainly at at the beginning I I was very clear that, I mean I wanted to
act in and direct em, the works of Ibsen, Chekov, do Shakespeare productions etc. the
classical world, that was that was wha I was most inspired by to begin with. And I was
most keen that those who were offering me work, knew that, you know. That that that
I I I, I wasn't going to play, didn't want to play cornershop Pakis as it were. Hehe.
But what do you feel about the validity of say a British South Asian theatre kind of
category or theme. Em, I I, I I think it's very, it was incredibly
important. Em, I still think it's important. I think it's more complex now. Em but certainly
when it began, it began I I think it grew out of a sense of making work, it it it grew
out of...artists, who weren't been given the opportunities to, to tell certain stories
and to and to be in, to have certain artistic experiences. And so the created that work
for themselves. And it came out of their their own, em, specific mix of er, of influences.
Em, eh, so that was incredibly important, because it gave those artists, er, a home,
eh from which to work. Em I think, subsequently, em I think things have got a bit more com
complex, we can maybe talk about that later on, about the validity of South Asian theatre
company now and maybe what, what sort of work they they need to be doing. But I think it
was incredibly important. And people like Jatinder Verma and Sudha and Kristine at Tamasha,
em, were pioneers. Em... Yah, Actually the next question is how did
how useful do you find that British South Asian theatre...
How useful do I find it? Er em... In a in... today for audiences really.
I I I mean I think I...there there's there's two aspects of that I suppose. There're at
least two aspects. Er, one of it is how useful do I find that as an artist and how how does
that influence how I go about making my work and looking for work. Em, and then there's
the other aspect which is as you say, how useful is it in terms of attracting audiences
and and targeting audiences. Em, now, the first one, em...I'm what I mean my my work
is that of a director, predominantly. So so my my role, in life, is to serve writers.
Er, to bring interesting, em, maybe entertaining, er but insightful stories to the widest possible
public I can. Em so...a part of what I do is to submerge and empathise and em, er...interrogate
the experiences of others. Em, so I'm not often inscribing my own story. Em, so I'm
I'm always slightly in em, nervous about kind of going like I do British Asian work. I'm
I happen to be British Asian but I I I want to do the, the best work that's. that's that's
out there. So for instance, er recently, about a year ago, em I did a production of Arthur
Miller's Broken Glass which is a which is a specifically a New York Jewish story set
around the time of Christalnacht. Em, now, at the time, Tony Sher who is who is Jewish,
complex, em obviously is was was a tremendous er, em, choice to play the lead role in it
and he's of investigating his own identity through a, a Jewish story as it were, but
I I I had no specific kind of reason er em, I mean they at the time, there were questions
about well well, how can you as somebody with a Pakistani, Islamic background, be, be doing
a play that's that's about the Jewish New York experience. And I and I sort of think
well, aa at the time there are parallels between all of these experiences where experiences
of, em, migration experiences of isolation, of Otherness, em, there are parallels, and
if a work of art is great, er, it should it should be able to speak across those sorts
of divides, er, finding that which we can identify with, in a in the story of the Other,
is I think my job. It's it's it's to it's to to open the the experience of the work
out to a to as broad a community as possible. Em, so...now therefore the first half of my
career I think I consciously did a certain kind of work. And I and I and I didn't engage
with the Tara Arts and Tamasha Arts because I was I was trying to sort of er,,,er ensure
that I was I was I was being perceived in a certain way. Er, but then actually it was
Rani Moorthy who runs Rasa Theatre company who came to see a production of mine in Leicester,
em, and she asked me to to direct her next play, em, and that was the first experience
that I had working with an Asian theatre company and it was extraordinary. And it was a very
happy hmmm, understanding, as a a a sympathy between us. Em, so, and then since then I
I've felt I've less the need not to, to to not do that kind of work. I've I've I've embraced
that that work more and more in in my in my my work. Em, where is a problem is where I
I think we feel the pressure, we being sort of British Asian theatremakers or, er...any
kind of BME kind of theatre theatremakers where you feel the pressure that you constantly
qualify, em, where you feel the pressure to hunt for funding and and and you use your
Otherness to to do that and I think there's there's something very complex and, em, dishonest
about that. Em so so I'm I'm, and I'm still dealing with that. I I it's a day to day issue,
for all of us I think. As we we wanna work in the broadest possible way but only certain
kinds of work are available to us. Em, so I mean I think I'm quite lucky, gen generally.
I think other people have it have it a lot worse than I do. Em, so so that's the kind
of, me as an artist in a cer British, British Asian artist, em, and that. The other thing
that was is as you say the au the audiences. Er and speaking to I mean I. it's been my
experience and I I started out in Leicester, ere r the Leicester Haymarket theatre. And
I had I I was there for eighteen months, at the beginning of my career, and there was
a big move then to try and engage with the a vast er Asian Asian population there, er
to get them into theatre. And I've always found that actually the theatre going habit
is not one that is present er, in, certainly em, Indian and Pakistani er com communities.
Em, and I don't know whether that's to do with, the actual buildings themselves and
what they represent. Er I mean often what would happen at the Haymarket as for an example
would be that they'd come to see the shows in the Studio, eh but they would never go
to see anything that was in the Main House and it was only work that was targeted for
them. And they would never spend any time in the space itself, in the building itself.
It didn't become a social hub as it were. Em, so there was something to do with how
those buildings represented a kind of exclusive experience to them that I, I think needs to
be tackled more specifically. And that's not just about producing work that's specific
to them because ideally, you want them to come to anything and to feel like that work
is all available to them just as do when they go to the cinema. They will go and see work
from the Hol from Hollywood, from Bollywood, from from wherever. Er, and it's all, it's
it's work that that is there, they they feel entitled to go and see it. I think theatre
is still slightly bound up with sort of that that these masters' er entertainment, as it
were. So that actually has a big impact, really,
on audiences. The kind of audiences that come, as you were saying. And er so how important
are the audiences that you, your work is for you, I mean who do you reach out to. Is there
any specific audience. Er, hhh, no, no. What what I hope is er that
the work, I mean I think the Elizabethan model is the perfect model in the sense that you
you have a piece of theatre there that's complex, er shifts in tone constantly from the scurrilous
to to the sacred, er and it speaks to every member of society and in those theatres you
would have the penny dread dreadfuls down there and then you would have the aristocrats
up there. Every member of society were was was in and every member of of society was
spoken to and addressed. Em, and, I mean that ob obviously that's idealistic but ultimately,
that's, I I I would want any work that I that I did, to, to be able to be enjoyed and to
to challenge, an any person that walks in in to that theatre building. And and I often,
I mean I often ensure that, I often try to go into schools, em, in Birmingham for instance
right, that have that have em large populations of of er, Muslim boys and girls and I do Shakespeare
workshops with them, because I don't feel, and and I don't patronize them. I am excited
about it, I'm passionate about it and I share that passion with them, and I, I don't see
any, er, resistance, to the, to to to, to to, there's no sense of the colour of the
work. Em it it it it so so I I I don't feel that anybody's excluded from my my from my
work or should be excluded from my work and I want it to speak to all, as it were.
So have you worked with rural audiences? In a rural context?
Yah, yah. I mean I think I've I've been very lucky. I mean I've had a career in Britain
that, I mean I, the first part of my career ere r I did quite a lot of work in the regions,
er, so, yah, I mean I've had hd lots of experience of that and and more recently I I've my work
has, has been happening in, er London but, no I I still do work with, and I still do
work with er theatre in education com companies like Box Clever that that tour the country,
er tour, that that have, er, productions that go into schools, er, as well as theatres.
This this kind of British Asian identity has really been changing and is a really complex
one because, you know, everybody comes from different communities anyway, originally.
So you do you find that em, how do you cope with that in terms of first of all finding
work, creating work, producing the work, em your your relationship with the audience and
their need for a particular, how do you cope with that or do you not think about that.
I think about it all the time. Er, it...there are two elements to that. I mean I I think
maybe I've got slightly complacent about that in in the past because I've I've been quite
a successful freelance director and em, people have offered me jobs and opportunities and
I've taken them on and I've explored those opportunities and done them as best as I can,
er, and I haven't had the pressure to, to to, em, make, maybe, em, tsk, engender my
own work, er...but I've I've but but I feel the need to do that more and more now. Em,
to, to em...to to to take certain ideas to theatre companies and and to hope that something
might come out of that, a writer might be inspired by that or or a a playwright's work
might be put on. Em, that's tough though, I think, er just for a freelance director
working on, on on his own, outside of the, er, er theatre company context, er, because
often, the theatres that you take it to, the producers that you take it to have a very
narrow brief, er, and you either meet that or you don't. Em but I but I have a certain
status now and I have a certain relationship with artistic directors, where whereby I hope
we can have, em, commerce con serious conversations about things that, that that might might expand
that brief, a little bit more. I think all the gatekeepers and all the people
that programme things, and produce things in theatre, em, I think they, as you say,
they they kind of have very clear objectives, quite narrow one sometimes. How do you find
that impacts on the whole state of say, British Asian theatre and British Asian theatre in
the context of the the national theatre. Em...I I think I my instinct is to be a bit
more generous to the 'gatekeepers' as you as you call them, em just just because I think
er, it's very hard, at the moment, in the present economic climate, with funding cuts
etc., em, I think it has been easier in the past and maybe those opportunities won't taken
then? It's quite hard, now. However, one of the good things about the pressure, the economic
pressure, is that I think they need to, the gatekeepers or the buildings, the institutions,
need to diversify how they make work and who they make work for. Em, so I think there there
there is a hunger to, for other voices? There's a hunger for other practices, a hunger to
kind of em, to to collaborate with other companies, em, and so, so I think there is a a genuine
openness now to, to change things. Em, my my my biggest frustration, is em, is that
when work happens with em, say em, em, errr an Asian company or a Black company in a,
in a in a in a building like the the national theatre, or even the RSC, em you are, it often
feels like that show, er, is the show being used to expe to to bring in a certain kind
of audience to satisfy a certain em, er requirement, for funding etc., em and that what what isn't
happening enough yet are the building of strategic relationships, er with artists. Em, the, the
work by art of actors say, throughout the company, throughout the repertoire that's
happening and, and so, it sor it still feels slightly like we still haven't em em giv,
or that work still feels very risky. Er, and yet, I can give you examples of of many of
these productions that have happened recently. They have been incredibly financially successful
and I don't understand why it's still perceived as being slightly risky work unless it might
be that there is still a perception that those making the work er might still be slightly
amateurish. Em, might and and and so there is always a worry, un unless it's a Greg Doran,
or a Nick Hytner or Rufus Norris at the helm that that work might be dangerously sub-standard.
Em, and I can understand that thinking because I I I think often you have people in the A
in in the er, in the wider kind of, er South Asian Black community of artists who have
who who have e, enormous talent, but who who haven't been able to develop their craft because
they haven't had enough, continuous work to allow them to develop it. Em, and unfortunately
that can only happen if those institutions, er, give them those opportunities and they
have those continuous strategic relationships. So it's a bit of a you know, somebody needs
to, to to make the commitment and and I think those who have the responsibility in these
institutions, should maybe, er, make a more, er, courageous er effort to, to to risk, er,
for the long term. In terms of venues, do you mainly create your
work within a European traditional setting? 21:35 IK: Er, er do I. I suppose I I suppose
I do although I don't I don't think of it in those terms. Em, I think I think I...I
I always have a bit in er...I I always find it quite hard to talk about what my aesthetic
might might be. Em, I have I have principles of work, er, and and, and it's all to do with
er, the specific play that I'm doing it to, er that I'm working on. The specific company
that I'm working with. Er the space within which I'm working. And, and I challenge myself
and those I'm working with to find the specific, er language, for that audience that are going
to be coming in the doors. And and my influences, artistic influences go way beyond European
influences. I mean I, I spent a year in Japan. I've I've directed in Japan, em, and I and
and er I'm very very sensitive and enjoy, er, a a very very broad range of of artists,
er and registers of performance so I mean I I I, I hope, that em I I I'm flexible and
I and I and and...I mean I'm not ideo ideological or dogmatic about the, the way my work needs
to look. It it will look the way it needs to look, depending on the company, the work,
and the aud and the space that we are working in and the audience that we're speaking to.
So, looking back at your body of work... My body of work. That's intimidating.
Would you say there's anything that actually stood out to you that's really significant
as what you are trying to do or has actually shown you and demonstrated that what you are
actually doing is is is of great value to yourself.
Yah, I mean I I I think most things that I do make me feel that way, even when it's,
I mean ev every every theatrical performance that I've I've been responsible for has had
an element of failure to it. I think that's that's er inevitable. Er and I and I and I
court that a little bit because I I embrace risk in in my work. I I I in terms of the
work of the actors as well, I I I genuinely want our work to be going it, er, to be addressing
the unknown in their practice etc. Er...I suppose what what what, I mean an early defining
experience for me in terms of my work was a production of Othello that that I did, at
the Leicester Haymarket, in the Studio space. And it was it was pretty soon after the 9/11
thing. Er er we constructed a, an aesthetic that kind of was resonant of the images of
of Ground Zero. Em, and the company was completely Asian except for a Black Othello. Em, and
that was, and sorry, a White Emilia, em, and it was it was, slight, it was, it was an attempt
on my part to try and challenge any kind of, er, ideas of, casual ideas of, complacent
ideas of stereotyping colour and and you know race etc. because those issues, within that
play for instance, exist within all kinds of communities and you know even within say
the Asian community there is, anything to do with beauty and ere r, er, integrity there
is you know the the lighter your skin is the more, eh potential integrity and beauty you
have etc. I mean that, that exists be, that's not a black white problem, there's there's
all kinds of shades between. Em, so I was exploring that, and also that that sort of
post 9/11 context, and, that was a remarkably successful exploration of that. I don't think
it diminished in the play. If anything, it liberated something in it. Er that company
had not had that kind of experience before with classical work, em, and it was incredible
to see how they grew, em, er how they dealt with their terror at the beginning, em and
and and really embraced their audiences and, and a kind of completely honest re relationship
to audiences. Em, and also we we had, em, audiences that came from all kinds of backgrounds.
I remember we once had er er, the theatre was full, Studio theatre was full of er teenage
Asian boys and girls from a school in Birmingham, er, who had no sense of what the rules of
theatre were. Er, they sort of, whenever, they were completely vocal in their responses
to everything in the piece, and it was extraordinarily electric and liberating. Em, so that was a
that was a tremendous experience and I I, I mean ironically I hadn't had too many opportunities
to, to have the freedom to do that kind of work, subsequently, em... But, and in a in
a similar way do, er the, The Much Ado About Nothing which I did at the RSC, er last year
was, was a very similar thing I mean, there there were where another Asian company, the
first Asian company that er ter complete Asian company that has done a Shakespeare, at the
RSC. Em, which was again, very complicated because a lot of those ac ac actors, wh ha
you know, might have worked for the RSC but worked there twenty years ago, and a lot of
them, a lot of the older actors carried an enormous amount of, I think, trauma from their
their their their, em, past relationships with these big organisations, er, and so,
dealing with that, and the innocence of the younger mem members, who who feel entitled
to do everything which is wonderful because it's a different world now. Em, was very interesting,
and and and how they were embraced by the, by audiences. It was just extraordinary.
And have you had any kind of traumatic experience yourself that you know, have have, you've
brought to bear in your artistic journey? Em, yah, I've had lots, some that I wouldn't
want to talk about in this context but er...em...traumatic experiences...I suppose the em, the, the the
depression that that I was traumatic, em, er and it was, I I I I found theatre, a very
useful way of trying to make sense of the world, er, at the time, and make sense of
myself. I had a very interesting experience at the beginning of my career, when em, I
was putting on my own work. Had my own theatre company, and I had an e, enormous. I was just
putting on work in fringe spaces, er, asking money out of anybody, and and making it happen.
Er, and, I was writing letters to everyone, but because I had no qualifications, nobody
was answering these letters, er, except for Marianne Elliott, who did, and who, I had
a conversation with and was, she was incredibly generous and and asked me to come up to the
Royal Exchange in Manchester to interview for a potential bursary. And I went into that
room at the time, and I was in my early twenties, er, and there was this long table and four
artistic directors at this table and I was completely overwhelmed. And actually struck
almost dumb by them. Now, you know, they they all had different personas. Some of them were
slightly more challenging and generous than than others but that didn't matter. The the
point was that I was already colonized. I I had my I had brought in my own problems,
er, and it was a terrible, traumatic interview. Er, and essentially, I said very very little
to them. Walked out of the room, Marianne came out and and asked me what was wrong,
because I'd talk to her very freely before. Er, and I could not, I could not explain it
to her, in at that instance. And so I I decided to take a year out to to do an MA, not because
I needed to learn more about the the...the craft but I needed to learn more about me.
I needed to give myself the permission to do this work. Er, so so, yah, I suppose that
was, that that that experience of sort of...allowing myself the permission to do these things,
er, valuing my my voice, whatever that voice is, and allowing it to become, and continue
to become something, and not feeding, not feeling that I needed to answer certain questions
in a in a specific and reductive way. Em, that one of the gifts of our work is is is
to pose questions, is to open things up rather than close them down. Em, you know that that
that was all valuable and humane, fundamentally humane. Er yah, so so I suppose was a traumatic
experience that that that resulted in a really, important up er, insight into why I do what
I do and who I am. And is there any special that you want to
let us know, that you feel is really em, you know, as part of your your own story and your
own journey and something that em perhaps could be useful for other people to know about.
Yah, I mean I I think, there are there are lots of things. Em...the the the thing that
upsets me most though in, when I encounter it, is is is when I see people who don't have
the courage to, genuinely not know, er in a in an artistic conversation, er, who feel
that that's a weakness, er, whereas I think that's the most authentic place to be in.
Er, and I think we create out of that not knowing. We have conversations with others,
er and try to kind of kind of get some sense of a matrix of significance. Er er, I I've
resisted dogmas all my life, and I find it I find it very sad when the industry itself
tries tries to tries tries to er, em, pressurize you into making slightly kind of reductive,
categorical, er dogmatic statements about your practice and about who you work for and
how you work etc. Er and I, I would say that there is much more power in in shattering
those those definitions then in, in in trying to live, live by them. It might be harder
potentially to make an application, a funding application, er, you might need a lot more
paper, er, but ultimately the work that you produce will be that much more significant,
and I think you touch people much more, much much more significantly, em...
So, to end up is there anything else you want to, to to let us know.
Em, no except it's it's interesting we are having this interview in this lovely bookshop
that I've not known about and there are there are maybe thirty, thirty-five books on that
shelf over there that are just extraordinary and they're they're books that I think, are
about are about experiences and voices from all over the world. Em, and I and I don't
know how many people know about this bookshop but I I I I just think it's a shame. I I I'm,
I'm not sure how many people read nowadays. I know I know they go they go very quickly
to to the internet and they get a very quick sense of what the, er who what, other's experiences
are. I just I just I would encourage actors out there, theatremakers etc. to spend some
time in a book to to to expand time, and and er, yeah to sort of make work that com and
to to, to to challenge the pace of life. I think the interesting thing about this place
is is run by a Malaysian and a Jewish person. Wonderful, what a wonderful model.
And they are both academics and writers themselves. Yes.
So they actually have a very, a sensibility. Well, and what's so lovely is that we are
having this interview now, but just over there, you've got I'm sure they've heard this all
they way through there's a children's workshop going going on. And yet there are academic
books by Christopher Hitchins etc. on on the shelf here. It's an extraordinary mixture
of things. It's kind of quite Asian you know. Where you
were talking about venues and theatres you know, which are which are quite formal, intimidating
spaces. And something like this is so much more organic.
I think it is. I I think it is. And and I think you are absolutely right about intimidating.
That element isn't, is is I think I's to do with, rather than Asian, I think it's any
kind of ancient oral culture, em, which sort of values the telling of stories to all. So
I I remember when I was growing up, the those those stories that were being told, in the
register they were being told, they would be told to, the you know, my uncles and my
grandfathers etc, but we'd be there as well as children, and we'd hear exactly the same
words told with exactly the same passion. Em...and that, I mean I I suppose that's something
you carry in your DNA, em, well not in your DNA, but in your in your sort of, in your
memory, as as as you as you you grow up. Em, and I think it's this, yah, that that's a
very very valuable thing isn't it. Well, thank you Iqbal.
Thank you.