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HOFFMAN: Welcome to "Masters With Masters."
This is a special knowledge-sharing activity,
jointly sponsored between the German Aerospace Center --
or DLR -- and NASA.
And we are very excited to have the leaders
of both of these organizations.
I'm Ed Hoffman, NASA's director for the Academy
for Program/Project & Engineering Leadership.
And over the next period of time, what we'll be doing
is sharing some of the thoughts, reflections, and experiences
from a career in space and managing complex-type programs.
Very excited to have two special guests here for this activity.
I've been told to be informal in the introductions.
So we have Johann Woerner,
who is the chairman of the executive board
of German Aerospace Center, or DLR.
He's been in that role since March of 2007.
Before that, he was the president
of Darmstadt Technological University
for about 12 years.
And he joined Darmstadt in 1990
as head of testing in the Research Institute
after a career in civil engineering.
So welcome to NASA.
WOERNER: Thank you very much.
I'm delighted to be here.
HOFFMAN: And we have also Charlie Bolden,
the NASA administrator, who has been in the position
as NASA administrator since July of 2009.
Before coming to NASA,
he served for 34 years in the U.S. Marines,
serving for 14 of those years as part of the astronaut corps
and retiring as a two-star general.
And obviously flew on four space shuttle missions,
including the deployment of the Hubble Space Telescope
and the first U.S.-Russian shuttle mission.
Thank you both for being here.
Many people, and we're all excited.
We have an audience here in the James Webb Auditorium,
and there will be an opportunity for questions.
But to get started,
I'd like to talk about the collaboration
between NASA and DLR,
which has gone on for several decades.
In your blog, one of the things you mention
is when you think of NASA and DLR,
it's two organizations, mutual ideas.
Maybe you can share what you mean by that.
WOERNER: If you look to both organizations,
NASA on one side and DLR on the other side,
you see some similarities and some differences.
So, for instance, the similarity is that both of us
share the interest in space and aeronautics,
which is not common in the world.
Look to the world,
you will find only a few organizations like that,
who are at the same time, or which at the same time,
working in space and aeronautics.
This is a similarity.
And another similarity is that both of our institutions
are space agencies and we are also doing research.
You are doing the research in your labs at Ames,
at JPL, at Dryden, Goddard, et cetera,
and DLR is a research center at the same time.
So we are a research center and space agency.
So we have something in common, but also some differences.
So, for instance,
we are also having the aspects of energy and transportation.
I mean, trains, cars, et cetera, in our program,
which makes a difference.
But there's another big difference, and this is money.
[ Laughter ]
So there is a gap.
We should call it a gap. A minor gap?
No, it's a big gap between the financial situation
of NASA and DLR.
And therefore, I'm really -- I feel very much honored
to be here at the same time with Charlie
to discuss about mutual activities
we had in the past and we may have in the future.
HOFFMAN: All right.
And NASA and DLR have collaborated
many times over the decades
in all the different mission areas.
What do you see as the ingredients
that lead to a successful
and what's obviously a mature relationship?
BOLDEN: I think as Johann has mentioned,
one of the things that has been critical
is our basic principles of the things in which we believe.
And we were comparing, for example,
President Obama's national space policy
that we rolled out in July
with the recently released policy in Germany.
And they very much mirror each other.
The importance of international cooperation,
the importance of commercial involvement and utilization,
and then the importance of research and development.
And those are the three key items
in the president's space policy.
But also, things in which there is no disagreement,
whether you're talking about Congress or the White House --
the importance of aeronautics, the importance of science,
increased funding for science, in our case,
and for aeronautics,
and then the critical importance of education.
And those are areas in which we continue to work.
HOFFMAN: You've also mentioned in the past
that trust in relationships
don't come usually from institutions only or agreements.
They come from the personal relationship.
And did that come from your experience
in the astronaut corps?
How did some of those experiences that you had
lead to the personal stuff?
BOLDEN: If I look at recent experiences --
and recent for me would be the last 40 years.
Since leaving Columbia, South Carolina,
and migrating away,
my experience in the military and NASA and everywhere
has been most places in the world except the United States.
Any successful business venture requires an aspect of trust,
which is built on a period of time
of interaction and interchange,
where there is a personal relationship
established among the parties.
The U.S. is probably the only place I've ever been
where you may not even know anybody and you sign a deal.
Most other places in the world, you meet and you sip tea
or you drink coffee or something.
And after weeks or months of getting to know each other
and becoming comfortable and trusting,
then you sign an agreement.
WOERNER: But of course, at the same time,
you need to have something to give each other.
I mean, the personal friendship or the personal relation
is very important, and I totally agree with that.
For me personally, it's also very important,
and therefore, I'm very happy to be here.
But at the same time, it's also, of course, a question --
Can the other partner give something in a partnership?
And I have the feeling
that in the partnership between NASA and DLR,
there is a lot which we can give each other --
for instance, if you look to SOFIA,
the flying telescope, infrared telescope.
So we have really a perfect match.
So it was the competence of NASA for the plane and everything,
and then there was the competence of DLR,
giving the instruments -- the telescope and all this.
So it was a perfect match.
And I was very happy that you're not looking for just,
"Is it 50/50 by money?"
but, "Is it something we can do together?"
And then we are better than each of us.
BOLDEN: And if I were to add a final piece, it would be,
as I travel around, no matter where I go,
there are three principles on which we always operate.
And that's the issue of transparency --
being honest with each other --
reciprocity, meaning, as Johann said,
there are things that we can give back and forth.
They may not have any involvement in money or funds,
but there are reciprocal things that we can do.
And the third is there must be a mutual benefit to both,
otherwise there's no really need to do it
or interest in doing it.
HOFFMAN: And, Johann, one of the things --
You come from a background which is diverse,
in civil engineering.
You spent time in Japan studying earthquake safety.
How does coming from a different background into aerospace --
where you're working
with different international partners,
sectors, different disciplines --
How does that shape your thinking
and help you in your leadership?
WOERNER: It shaped more than just thinking.
First of all,
earthquake engineering is a good basis for space technology
because it's very dynamic.
And therefore, it's also a good basis
for what we are doing here.
You see, it is from my childhood,
I was always interested in space technology.
My father put me on his arm and said,
"Look over there. There is Sputnik."
I did not see anything, but I believed him.
[ Laughter ]
And then I followed all the American missions.
Really, I have them at home.
I can show you. You can check that.
I followed everything.
I knew everything --
Buzz Aldrin and all these people.
Buzz Aldrin was here.
But I really followed everything.
And then I was just a civil engineer.
But an engineer has also some thinking,
and I tried to develop.
And then I became, by chance, president of a university.
And from my opinion, it was a good basis,
even for future work, which I'm doing right now,
because as a president of a university
you have also to tackle some problems,
financial problems.
You have a diversity of professors,
which is a very special race,
and then you have international contacts.
And I was lucky enough
that I could convince the government at that time
to give the university I was president of
a special law.
Full autonomy for a public university was a great deal.
And then I said, "Okay.
"Now after 12 years,
I should try to have even a higher challenge."
And I was very lucky.
And this is more than just some feeling.
It shaped my life.
The last three years have changed everything for me,
and I'm very grateful about that,
that I have this chance in my life.
It's unbelievable.
HOFFMAN: All right.
And so these experiences have played to where you are.
It sounds like these last three years
have been a good period of three years.
WOERNER: Just perfect. Just perfect.
I can tell you especially the relations also to NASA.
The trust I felt over here,
the personal feelings that we could share,
that the doors were opened for me,
that I could see what is really happening over here,
that we had developed further cooperations.
I'm grateful for that.
And the last 3 1/2 years, I can just say -- perfect.
Of course there's some work,
but this is what we like to have.
HOFFMAN: I'd like to, at some point,
maybe come back to the trust that you talk about.
But one of the key themes that we're all hearing about
that's important is technology --
new technology, new approaches.
One of the areas that you've written about,
you talked about the fact
that evolutionary technological development requires continuity,
while as revolutionary development and breakthroughs
requires autonomy.
Can you talk to that?
And what's the importance of autonomy
if you're going to have revolutionary
or maybe radical breakthrough?
WOERNER: Yeah. That's a very interesting point.
I thought about that because I had to give a lecture,
and the question was,
"Is technology evolutionary or revolutionary?"
That was the question.
And during the preparation of that talk, I wasn't clear.
So I looked at first and thought, "Okay.
"Nature is, for sure -- is evolutionary.
"From the Big *** to the universe,
"from single-cell organism to *** sapiens,
everything is more or less evolutionary."
Of course, if you look in detail, it's not evolutionary.
There are always some leaps, some steps ahead,
from single-cell organism to higher organism, et cetera.
So there are also some steps.
But it's more or less, from an outer view,
it's a continuous process.
It has some minor steps, but it's continuous.
But if you look really to revolution,
by leaps and bounds, and this is --
I like to have our actual thinking,
so we should give our people, our staff,
the possibility to really think revolutionary.
That means that they try to make big leaps,
even leaps or even ideas where we say at the beginning,
"This is ridiculous."
But the dreams should be there, should be possible.
And therefore, evolution is a continuous process.
Evolution, therefore, needs also continuity
with regard to the financing and everything.
But revolution --
and this is what I like to have --
needs free space for the individual,
free space for the institution,
and not detailing every day by saying,
"You have to do this screw in that hole
"and screw it three times to the right
and one time to the left."
This is not what I'm looking forward.
So we are trying in DLR, inside,
to give our scientists free space within our programs.
which is a fairly complicated balance
because we have some targets.
But it's better to mention the target
than to give the way to the target.
So to tell the people, "We have a common target,
so please try to come there with some revolutionary ideas."
And this needs autonomy on the individual level
as well as on the institutional one.
HOFFMAN: So you try to build in, for people who work at DLR,
time where they can -- I wouldn't call it play.
But I guess time where they can have the autonomy
to take on things that --
WOERNER: Yes. Yes.
And I think it's also important for the institution as a whole.
So the new space strategy of Germany
is just defining some guidelines,
some boundary conditions, some goals.
And now it's up to DLR, with all its scientific knowledge,
with its creativity and so on,
to formulate within that German space program.
So this is one step of autonomy of free space.
Now the next step is then below that.
Again, giving the scientists targets, goals, and challenges,
and then they should see, within a certain budget,
how to get there.
HOFFMAN: And for NASA,
it's the same, obviously, demands.
The president has called for NASA to step up
in terms of technological innovation,
to just some of the societal challenges
of understanding the climate better,
monitoring Earth, human presence,
and the whole issue of revolutionary breakthroughs.
How do you see NASA trying to facilitate addressing that,
making us more innovative?
BOLDEN: One of our challenges
in being a reliable international partner
is that we go through periodic --
like every two years and four years -- cycles.
One of the things that I am excited about,
the budget that President Obama rolled out for us,
the national space policy,
is I think by emphasizing the importance
of international cooperation, in a way you sort of demand
that there be some repetitiveness
or some continuity to the way you do things.
That is not historically the way
the United States has done its space program.
If you look at how we got to where we are today,
I would say --
You know, Johann mentioned this revolutionary development.
Apollo-Soyuz was revolutionary.
It was at a time of war, the Cold War,
but people felt that it was really important
to do something different.
And so we did Apollo-Soyuz.
The International Space Station, on the other hand,
while it had a geopolitical reason to start,
that was an evolutionary development
that has brought in 15 or more international partners
over time.
And it is something that,
when it came time for us to evaluate
what we were going to do in the future,
the international partners came in
and told the Augustine Committee, for example,
"You cannot get rid of the International Space Station."
Our plan was to do away with it.
But the international community said,
"We have time and money and everything invested in this,
"and we are finally about to see the point
"where we can now do legitimate science.
You can't step away from that."
So I think that's why the president and I both like
increased international involvement.
Because it demands that there be some consistency
in the programs that you put in place.
HOFFMAN: And one of the things --
We'll get perhaps some questions here shortly,
but you're making an interesting link
between innovation and technology going in new ways,
but also the collaboration, the partnering.
And obviously with the International Space Station,
it's been in the process of being built.
Now we have a decade or more
to work and get science out of that.
How is that serving as a model
for how we partner together internationally
and the benefits of that in moving forward?
BOLDEN: I think there are a number of things with Station.
It serves as a model
for international collaboration and partnership
because it is the result of treaties among nations.
But then, as we started talking about initially,
there is the matter of building trust.
And that has come with time.
That has been a very painful partnership in its development.
When you talk about ESA, Roscosmos,
the Japanese, us, the Canadians, you know, on and on and on --
very diverse interests and very diverse capabilities.
But Station has allowed nations of incredibly diverse capability
to come together into one enterprise,
where, again, if I go back to this reciprocity,
every partner is able to contribute something.
It may not be the same monetary value,
but in terms of contribution to the effort,
everybody's on an equal footing.
WOERNER: And if I may add something
concerning the International Space Station,
the International Space Station is for us now --
It's a perfect international forum for interaction.
But it's also a perfect forum for actual science.
And now you are using the word "innovation."
So we have now, within DLR --
We looked a little more into detail,
"What is innovation?"
And we make a difference --
Maybe it's in the English language not correct,
but we are doing that
between an intervention and an innovation.
So the scientific process starts with an idea
and invents something and comes to knowledge,
to maybe a product,
even maybe a procedure or whatever.
And an innovation is, to our understanding,
something like a product for the market.
Now, how to combine these both.
I will show you an example from the International Space Station.
From the German side,
there was an experiment on the International Space Station
financed through DLR concerning complex plasmas.
Plasmas being an ionized gas.
And this can be very specially investigated
under zero-gravity conditions.
So now this was the first step of the scientists,
not just to understand, What is a complex plasma?
How does it behave? How can we influence it?
And then the same idea was put into a market product.
This is now in Germany,
because you can use these plasma,
the cold plasma, for health medication,
if you have wounds and to kill all the bacteria, et cetera.
So it's a link
from basic scientific research on the Space Station
to a finally market-possible product.
So this is the link
which is from the first idea to a final innovation.
And this is by ISS. It's a perfect tool for that.
And we all should do our very best in the next 10 years
to use ISS as a scientific research lab.
HOFFMAN: Yeah, and I guess also Germany,
obviously, was one of the first nations
to have a person in space.
And how much does that also stimulate
not just the ideas and the innovations,
but also people to take space more seriously
and the potential benefits of that?
Is that something that has a tangible benefit?
WOERNER: We had, of course --
Two Germans were the first from foreign countries
being in space, besides America and Russia.
And both were --
one from East Germany and one from West Germany.
Interesting enough, one flew with the Russians,
one flew with the Americans.
We have now in our board, executive board,
also an astronaut, Thomas Reiter.
Of course, astronauts are, from my opinion --
They are the best ambassadors
for space activities of all types --
not only for human spaceflight,
but also for other space activities --
because they are authentic.
If I'm talking about space, I try to convince people,
but it's just a civil engineer who is talking.
But if you use a real astronaut, it's much better.
So I have my colleague Thomas Reiter.
Space is -- And you mentioned --
You are using the word "benefit."
And again, I would like to refer to the German space strategy.
This paper says very strictly, space should have benefit.
And when I read it first, I thought, "Oh, my gosh.
"Is it just commercially,
or what is the idea behind that?"
But then the explanation is very clear.
Science is benefit of space.
Understanding of the universe is benefit of space.
Understanding the earth is benefit of space.
Developing new technologies,
which can be used for different understanding, is benefit.
So benefit is a very broad understanding in that strategy,
and therefore, yes, in Germany,
we feel that space has a big fascination for young people.
We can use space activities not only for space,
but also for other technological aspects,
for science and engineering.
So it's a perfect instrument for us.
HOFFMAN: Yeah, so a stimulus for science, technology,
math, and management, I'm sure.
You have to come up with new ways of leading
in terms of some of these challenges.
We have a few questions that I've received.
so I'll go through some of this.
First question is,
"Establishing international agreements between agencies
"is not easy.
"It took the International Space Station several years
"to hammer out with involvement
"of the U.S. State Department and foreign governments.
"How can future partnerships with NASA
be made easier?"
What did we learn in terms of maybe some of the challenges,
and how can we partner better now and in the future?
WOERNER: I can just tell
that the agreement between NASA and DLR took not decades.
It took half a year.
In summer of this year, we said,
"Okay, let's have a framework agreement,"
and just today we signed it.
So that's the easy way.
U.S., DLR, NASA -- Everything is solved.
[ Laughter ]
BOLDEN: I think one of the things
is continuous involvement among the parties.
You know, when you collaborate time and time again,
then it's much easier to get together and say,
"Okay, we want to cement this agreement."
And Johann talked about the framework agreement
that he and I signed this morning.
That's a result of collaboration and partnership
through the years.
But then we signed another agreement
that brought Germany into the Lunar Science Institute.
That took much less time.
But again, that was because they had been collaborating
and found that there was value in it for Germany
and value in it for the other international partners
in the Lunar Science Institute.
HOFFMAN: And obviously, I mean, you've been a part of it
on the side of being an astronaut
and collaborating from the beginning
in terms of international,
and now as an executive and a leader
in terms of many of the challenges
go beyond just a space organization.
It goes with a society in terms of getting ready to move ahead.
Do you feel from the experiences
of the International Space Station and others
that we are better and able to work better?
BOLDEN: I would go back even farther
than the International Space Station,
back when I first came into NASA
and we started flying space laboratory missions,
Spacelab missions.
The very first international mission that we flew was D1.
That was the very first
international space laboratory mission.
The United States flew that mission for Germany.
It was a German mission flown on the space shuttle
in a laboratory inside the module.
We did the same thing later --
subsequently did it with the Japanese.
And we learned through those types of collaborations
that you can do that.
So those were sort of precursors
to the International Space Station, if you will.
WOERNER: And we are ready to be precursors for future missions.
[ Laughter ]
HOFFMAN: Well, actually, this is, I guess,
a follow-up question, you know, for some of this.
"How do you see
"German-American collaboration and partnership grow
from this point forward?"
I guess that's some of the discussions that you've had.
BOLDEN: I would say, you know,
we have a number of agreements for projects in the future.
Whether it's missions like Destiny or others,
where we have been working
and there are missions that are laid out years from now.
But there are evolving missions.
If we look at the aeronautics, for example --
Those are much more tightly coupled
and I think shorter turnaround than, say, a space mission.
Space missions you plan years in advance.
Aeronautics -- There may be something that comes up.
Like we're both working right now on --
They don't call it NextGen, but we do.
It's developments in ways to move aircraft
more efficiently and effectively
through airspace throughout the world,
ways to reduce pollution.
We work cooperatively on that.
Those things started a year ago or a year and a half ago.
So it's not just space,
but the partnership that involves space and aeronautics,
which is somewhat unique to NASA and DLR,
I think are important examples also.
WOERNER: Yes.
HOFFMAN: And I think you've been addressing this all along.
Part of the question is,
"Does that also extend to --" what's being called here --
"game-changing technology developments?"
And from the discussion, it sounds like clearly
that's a large part of what we're talking about,
both the human exploration
and the scientific missions and technologies.
WOERNER: I can just say at least
that from the discussions I had the last couple of days
when I visited some of the research entities of NASA,
that there are much more ideas of cooperation
than we have money.
And this is a good situation.
Just imagine it would be the other way around.
It would be terrible.
So there are several ideas of the scientists
in all the different fields.
You're mentioning the aeronautics.
Yes, there is already good cooperation
concerning air-traffic management and other aspects.
And I'm sure that we will intensify that one.
We are in the space area.
And maybe we even find totally different areas
where we can work together.
But we are also working together in the outreach area.
Because both of us have the programs for young people
to convince them or to show the fascination of space
and other activities.
And therefore, we are always very grateful
if the cooperation between NASA and DLR
is not only a cooperation
between the administrator and me,
but it's also between the scientists,
between the public-relations people.
So it's really spread to the total institutions.
And this is, I think, a very good deal we are doing.
HOFFMAN: And so we've been talking a lot
about certainly the human collaboration.
But a large part of the collaboration
between NASA and DLR has been in the area of science.
Science missions and things like obviously missions like SOFIA
and GRACE and the Helios probes.
What role does the collaboration potentially play
outside of just space agencies,
but for folks and young professionals
who are interested in some societal challenges?
How does space help
in terms of some of the issues that we're dealing with
in terms of climate change, space weather, orbital debris,
which goes, again, beyond just the aerospace community?
BOLDEN: Most of our international partners
are not capable of doing the level of widespread activity
that DLR and Germany happen to be able to do.
Most of our international partners are much smaller.
And they do what they consider to be --
They refer to it as satisfying societal needs.
Most of those tend to be earth-science experiments.
They study climate change.
We have a program called SERVIR, for example,
that we work with three regions of the world,
where we do things like help undeveloped nations,
underdeveloped and developing nations,
collaborate to produce things like flood models
or drought models and the like.
You know, those are things that Germany and the United States
can collaborate on
and make them available to other nations
that want to be members
of the society of space-faring nations
but don't have the financial wherewithal to go in whole hog.
WOERNER: Space activities
is not only an aspect of NASA and DLR.
It's really spread around the globe
and for all types of life, all types of what you can do.
So, of course, navigation, communication without space
would not be possible.
By the way, navigation is also a good example
to show that basic science is not just a thing of scientists,
because the Einstein theory of relativity has to be considered
in order to have good signals for navigation.
Otherwise, you would have a big mistake.
But also we are -- DLR is a member
of the Charter for Space and Major Disasters,
where we hope to use space information
for catastrophes, man or human, or natural disasters.
So this is also where we help other nations
who don't have the ability directly.
Let's just consider Haiti, the earthquake.
After the earthquake, the big institutions
gave all the information to the organizations
to help on site -- where to go first,
how to go there -- which road, which street is accessible.
So this type of help to other countries --
I think this is one of our responsibilities,
and space is really day-by-day help.
And it's interesting that in German language,
"space" can be decided as "All" and "day" means "Tag."
So "Alltag" would mean "space day."
But this has, at the same minute,
has the information as "every day."
So this is an interesting wording.
So "space day" is "every day."
HOFFMAN: One of the things you're also talking about
is that in these communities,
there is obviously a significant global expertise in science,
in the engineering disciplines, and in different fields.
With all the knowledge
and with all the things that are always going on,
how do we share knowledge,
and how do we do that effectively
so we're able to use that to society's challenges
and to our own goals?
BOLDEN: Sometimes we're forced together,
as we were after the war -- after World War II.
You know, we had Robert Goddard.
We had other American rocketeers.
But it was the addition of German expertise
in the world of rocketry
that is the basis of what we do today.
When you look at the Marshall Space Flight Center
and what Dr. von Braun and his team brought
to that area of the country, but to NASA.
So sometimes you're forced together for different reasons.
Other times, you have the luxury of going out
and searching things that you can do together,
as we are fortunate enough to be able to do today.
We pick and choose.
We talked a little bit before coming down here
about, you know, our ongoing efforts in exploration.
And now how we have what we call, you know --
And most people don't understand it.
But when you talk about
a flexible path process for exploration,
it means that with international partners,
everybody doesn't want to do the same things.
The Germans don't have a lot of interest in Mars right now.
We do.
The Germans have a lot of interest in the moon.
We do, but not quite to the level that they do.
So the collaboration means
maybe they head up a mission that's a lunar mission.
We're in support.
We head up a mission that's a Mars mission.
They're in support.
And I think you're going to find that that will be the way
that we do it more and more as we go along.
President Obama has really emphasized
not just expanding international cooperation,
but what we call putting internationals
in the critical path,
which means you cannot get to that point
without the participation and the success
of your international partner.
WOERNER: Which gives some burden
to the partner, but also some chance.
And, I mean, moon and Mars --
and there are also moon of the Mars.
So maybe that's a common idea.
[ Laughter ]
BOLDEN: If you look at --
Again, go back to the International Space Station
and where we are now.
We have agreed that we will expand
the utilization of the International Space Station
to at least 2020 and possibly beyond.
We will not be successful in doing that
if the international partners are not able to deliver an ATV,
you know, from the European Space Agency and Germany,
HTV from Japan.
If we don't have those vehicles available, we're in trouble,
because that's the way you get supplies
and equipment and experiments and the like
to the International Space Station.
If our other partners,
if the commercial entities can't deliver --
And this is the reason it's so critical
that today's mission of Falcon 9 be successful,
because they are a critical part of the team now.
There's no more NASA doing everything by itself --
Not that we ever did, I don't think.
We probably said we did.
But today we are forced to admit
that we are part of a collaboration of academia,
industry, and international partners.
And we cannot be successful unless we all work together.
HOFFMAN: It makes me think that in the old days,
we talked about the challenge of rocket science.
It sounds like the rocket science is as much
how we work together in collaboration.
And how do you recommend to managers of projects
or to engineers who are now coming in
and working in this kind of environment,
where you're working with industry
and academia and international partners --
How do you make that work?
WOERNER: There is no magic formula, of course.
But what I would recommend is young people --
And I see that they are doing it more and more.
First of all, to really learn about the other system.
So, really to be in an industry for a certain time,
to be in academia for a certain time
helps, of course, to understand both worlds.
To be in a foreign country.
Also we are --
The global society is getting more and more together.
Of course, there are different cultural heritages,
different cultural understandings.
But this is a very special challenge.
I, unfortunately, during my whole time at school,
I did not go abroad, not at all.
I even had no interest, I have to say.
This was a mistake. I don't know by whom.
But anyhow, and then --
[ Laughter ]
Suddenly, when I was in this civil engineering office,
I always thought --
Okay, my wife was asking, "Do we go abroad?"
I said, "No. I'm a civil engineer.
Stay at home and make my bridges and everything."
And then one day my boss came and said, "Okay, Mr. Woerner.
"There is an idea
we should send somebody for one year to Japan."
I had no Japanese language competence, nothing.
I said, "Okay, I will go."
And he said, "No, no. Go at home. Ask your wife."
I said, "No, no. I will go."
He thought I am a strong person, but in fact I was very weak,
because my wife was always asking for that.
[ Laughter ]
So I went abroad. I went abroad.
By the way,
my wife could not come the first time with me
because she had to follow her study at university.
But this changed my life.
So it's still that to go abroad and to see what is happening,
how they are working, this opens your mind, hopefully.
And therefore, I think this would be a recommendation.
What I would always give managers
or people who would like to be managers --
Try to see the other worlds -- the other worlds, not only one.
And then to learn about it.
I think NASA and DLR is doing very nicely in that,
because we are exchanging people.
This is one common way we could do.
Maybe we have the next time
we have an administrator interaction and exchange,
that I'm for some time the administrator,
and you can have DLR.
You see, what I mean is clear
that you exchange to understand what is happening.
And whenever I'm at NASA,
I'm learning more about how the system is functioning.
And this helps because it gives trust,
it gives understanding,
it gives a good basis for future cooperation.
HOFFMAN: Interesting.
Yeah, it's very interesting,
in the the previous "Masters With Masters,"
Jean-Jacques Dordain said
the most important skill is having a global mind-set.
And that's what both of you are talking about.
Anyways, we have a couple of other questions
from the audience here.
And one of them is,
"There are many issues facing the world in general,
"such as global warming, disaster monitoring,
"to name a few.
"What are your views on how to use space systems
to achieve solutions to these global issues?"
WOERNER: A question back --
How not to use space for these?
Of course, global activities can be especially observed
with global perspective.
And space can do that.
So global warming --
Just look into the actual news concerning
the rise of the water after melting of some ice.
There was the idea of scientists
that if ice is melting from solid ground,
that the water of the sea will rise.
That was a very simple approach.
Now, the first investigation shows that it's not like that.
In some locations, it's rising.
At some regions, it's even lowering.
So this is a new scientific question
which can only be answered by space technology,
because only through space technology
we get the data which then can be analyzed
to get new scientific ideas.
So space is not always the instrument solving the problems,
but analyzing the problem.
And if you understood the problem,
you are on the first step to get also a solution for it.
BOLDEN: If I can give a couple of concrete examples.
Johann mentioned earlier the earthquakes in Haiti.
Within hours of the earthquakes occurring,
overhead imagery from multiple nations
was available for decision-makers,
for disaster-management officials to take action.
One of the things that we in NASA are very proud of
is that some of the satellites from --
And I hope I get this right,
so if Mike Freilich's listening, he can correct me.
But some of our satellites in what we call the A-train
identified three specific landfalls or mud slides --
landslides that were west of Port-au-Prince.
Probably would not have been discovered for days,
if not weeks,
and that resulted in the saving of lives.
The issue with the miners in Chile.
While not exactly using space imagery,
what we did there was we used technology from space,
not just physical, mechanical technology,
but physiology and medical science.
Things that we had to learn
to operate for long periods of time
on the International Space Station
were applied to a real-world disaster.
And we ended up with 33 people being saved.
That probably --
It's hard to say whether it would have happened.
But there's a good chance it would not have happened
had it not been for the use
of knowledge from space exploration,
bringing it together with knowledge
from people serving societal needs.
The drilling company that brought two kids in --
kids -- two people in from Afghanistan
who had been drilling freshwater wells.
Brought that technology to Chile
and were able to increase the rapidity
with which we were able to get to the miners.
So, you know, space applications are there every single day.
WOERNER: One more example,
which I'm always quoting because it's so important.
There is a special --
I don't know how you call it in English.
Sudden child death. I don't know how you call it.
HOFFMAN: Infant death syndrome.
BOLDEN: SIDS.
HOFFMAN: Sudden infant -- right.
WOERNER: "Sudden death" is easier for me.
But anyhow, and how to deal with that.
And using the senses of the astronauts,
because they needed in space,
there was a special suit, a child suit developed.
And this is now securing the life
of hundreds of children.
So it's, again, a direct transfer
from space technology to that.
Of course you could say,
"Okay, we could develop it also without space."
But this is always the question.
From idea to the usage,
it's not just passed in that direction.
It's a revolutionary idea which comes in between.
And therefore, space is really excellent.
The drilling machine with batteries,
developed for Apollo 11,
because they had no cable to the moon.
So you could say,
"Okay, we don't need this development
because we could develop on Earth."
But it is done by that.
BOLDEN: Buzz said they used a hand crank.
[ Laughter ]
WOERNER: Really?
BOLDEN: Nah, I'm just kidding.
WOERNER: No.
Astronauts.
HOFFMAN: So where good ideas come from
is the research, the technology,
affecting, obviously, applications.
BOLDEN: Necessity is the mother of invention.
You know, we humans find that there is a need for something.
And generally, it's the technology --
technology push versus technology pull.
You know, I frequently think that technology pull
is much more effective than the other way around.
But they both are necessary.
HOFFMAN: Now, here's a question
from someone who wrote their name down.
It's Mark Lee of NASA.
And what he wrote down is -- The question is,
"The International Space Station
"is designed for science and technology,
"but it's still very sparsely furnished,
"like a high-rise apartment without matching furnitures
"to do its intended job.
"Is there an international effort
"to beef up the research capability
of the International Space Station?"
So is there any...
WOERNER: I would not say that Columbus,
the European space module, or research module,
is not furnished.
HOFFMAN: Mark Lee said that.
[ Laughter ]
WOERNER: It's not as furnished as my living room,
but it's furnished maybe as a research lab.
And, of course we could do more.
And therefore,
it's the German intention, very strong intention --
and this is really a very clear word --
that the next 10 years should be focused
on usage of the ISS for science and technology.
Of course, it's complicated enough
to maintain the structure for human beings.
And I understand that there's a lot of problems
with water and all these aspects.
But we should concentrate also,
after this big investment by several nations --
especially the United States -- we should now also focus
on the usage of ISS for scientific purposes.
And therefore, Germany was the first nation
within the European area of the European Space Agency
to say, "Yes, it's us who want to support ISS
for the next at least 10 years."
HOFFMAN: Yeah.
So there's a lot of things that are happening
that will continue over the next decade.
We're getting towards the end of our time.
And both of you have talked about --
both in discussions here,
but also in the work you've been doing --
the importance of young professionals,
making space and room for a new generation
to address some of the issues and challenges that we have.
I'd like to start maybe with the notion of mentors.
And I'd like to ask a question of who were your mentors
as you went through different points of your career?
And I'll start with Charlie.
Who were the people that mentored you?
BOLDEN: You've heard me say this before.
My first mentors were my mom and dad.
I mean, incredibly valuable to me as educators,
professional educators their entire life.
I did not become an educator
because I saw how hard they worked
and how devoted they were to that.
And how, to be quite honest -- how little they got paid.
But that's the story of educators.
And as I continued to develop,
I am a Marine today because of a person I met
when I first went to the Naval Academy
who just impressed me incredibly.
I sit here today
because of a mentor by the name of Dr. Ron McNair.
I would have never applied for the space program
had I not met Ron.
Yeah.
WOERNER: In my case, it's complicated.
Of course, my parents were my mentors.
But they were my mentors without being there.
My father died when I was 13 years old.
My mother said,
"Okay, I will try to survive until you have a job."
And she did so with the time of just 14 days.
So this was really extreme.
So then I was more or less alone.
I have an elder brother, which I have a very good relation with.
So my father was my mentor without being there.
It's strange enough, but he gave me some feelings
of what should be values in the world
and what should personal value
and trust and all these aspects.
All of these I learned
when I was older than I was when I really could hear him.
And then I had the person who sent me to Japan.
This was the head of this office,
and he was really something like a father to me.
We had also some struggle, like sons and fathers can have.
But he is -- Mr. Koenig --
He was really the person, the living mentor for me.
HOFFMAN: And what advice --
So, clearly, the importance of these people are noteworthy.
What advice do you have to young professionals
in terms of finding mentors?
How does that happen?
Is it serendipitous, or do you seek it out?
What would you suggest?
BOLDEN: I think, you know, today
a lot of people actively pursue mentors.
I frequently tell them, "Look and listen."
Everyone that you meet can be a mentor and is a mentor.
You know, my most recent, or my contemporary mentors,
are my son and daughter.
You know, they're incredible.
I watch what they do, and I watch how they do it.
And I couldn't do it that way.
So I try to emulate the things that they do.
So I would say rather than go and go ask somebody
if they will be a mentor,
then watch and listen to people
and then try to emulate the things that you see people do
that you think are making a difference
in the lives of other people.
HOFFMAN: I know there are some organizations
that make people who have been working for 30 years
get mentored by, you know, high school
or folks who are coming out of school.
So it's any age.
WOERNER: I could just say I totally agree.
As the heads of institutions,
we could give some help for that.
We could offer something.
But the young people have to find it themselves.
And we need also mentors even now.
So I totally agree.
Also, my kids are my mentors, for instance,
using new instruments in communication --
of course, Twitter and the blogs and everything.
My public-relation managers always ask me,
so of course, I have some mentors.
These are my kids. They say, "Okay, go ahead."
HOFFMAN: Very good.
It's gone very quickly.
I'm getting the signal to close down.
So we really want to thank
Johann Woerner and Charlie Bolden
for taking time out of a very busy schedule
to share some of their thoughts and reflections with us.
So thank you very much.
BOLDEN: Thank you, Ed.
HOFFMAN: Also want to thank our guests from DLR,
who were very instrumental in helping us arrange this,
and the team from the International Relations Group
that makes sure that we do it right
and the great folks from NASA TV.
So we'll close this one out.
Look for this and the other "Masters With Masters"
on the NASA Academy website.
And until then, keep learning. Thank you.
[ Applause ]
WOERNER: Thank you.
Thank you very much.