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Dr. Brixey: Good Morning. I'm Doctor Juliana Brixey and this is my avatar Wendy Haley
We're here at the School of Biomedical Informatics
I'd like to introduce our guest today, Doctor Scott Erdley
Doctor Erdley holds the position of Special Project Simulation Education Specialist
at the Behling Simulation Center, University of Buffalo
That's the state university of New York
Dr. Erdley earned a DS in, I"m sorry a DNS University of Buffalo
School of Nursing in 2000
He holds a Master's degree from the University of Buffalo
and it's for adult health critical care, and he earned the degree in 1993
He holds a BSN also from University of Buffalo
and earned the degree in 1989
He holds a BA from Robert Wesleyan College of Rochester
Dr. Erdley's professional interests lie in the area of nursing informatics,
information seeking, and use of high fidelity simulation
in education in healthcare informatics
His current and past research projects include studies of nursing information,
and knowledge development
Dr. Erdley has taught classes about healthcare informatics
as well as at the intersection of technology and care
and acute care environments to undergraduate and graduate students
Additionally, Dr. Erdley is a coauthor in the book chapter Biomechanical
Dr. Erdley is here to share his thoughts and insights about Second Life
Dr. Erdley, welcome to the SBMI island in Second Life
Dr. Erdley: Thank you, this is really cool to be here, you got a great island
Dr. Brixey: Thank you so much.
To begin our interview I'd like to ask you how did you become interested in Second Life?
Dr. Erdley: It's kind of like asking why does it rain. Little bit of humor
It actually was part of my own investigations
Second Life was becoming popular way back when, when it first came out
And it seemed like something cool with a lot of potential
So, I just kind of jumped in, had some friends around that were doing it as well
and wanted to look at the health sites, if you will, that were up and around
So, I signed up
actually, Dr. Peter Murray, was one of the ones, I think he sent me an invitation
could be, could not be, memory's a little fuzzy
But, basically my own, mostly my own chutzpah, that this is something cool
and I need to know what's going on with it, so I kind of jumped in
and here I am
Dr. Brixey: Two, would you describe yourself as an early adopter?
Dr. Erdley: A little better phase, yeah that would do it
Dr. Brixey: Well we're glad you're in Second Life with us today
can you talk about some examples about the use of Second Life in education?
Dr. Erdley: Currently there's a larger number, it's a growing number of
places that are using Second Life and similar applications in healthcare
I've met up with a college down in New Zealand that has a midwifery program
that utilizes Second Life
There's also a vast amount of work going on at University of Wisconsin
One of the sites up with UW's, campuses that is utilizing
Second Life for educational purposes and communication
not only for undergrads, but also for nurse practitioner students
and there are others that are also being utilized through out the country
and the world. University of Washington Community College
has some faculty that are well versed and in fact have their own company
to market educational solutions for healthcare, and in particular nursing
about what I got at this point
Dr. Brixey: That leads us into our next question
and could you describe the use of Second Life in simulation
in nursing education? Could you speak more about the project in New Zealand
and the birthing center?
Dr. Erdley: Yeah I'll try, it was actually a spot that some of us
part of the International Medical Informatics Association Social Media work-group
ended up meeting down there and I met the administrator and the
moderator I believe, at the site and had a quick little tour
It's a wonderful little place, rather nondescript, but it serves its purpose well
and they have students run through interactions with patients
I don't know if they're real, I believe they're real
people who stand on the backside of the avatars giving birth
or they have birth concerns that the students
have to interact with at various points in the process
They have tools set up within the building, they have different robes that they utilize
So it's kind of a neat environment, I'm not aware of too many
midwifery or labor and delivery topics in Second Life
there could be more, but that's like one of the few I know about
Dr. Brixey: Have you used Second Life in your courses that you teach?
Dr. Erdley: Unfortunately I have not really utilized it simply because
we don't have a place, at the University, that I know of
that we can build and create in
So consequently, I've taken people and I've shown them
various spots and on tours, and so forth, but other than that, I haven't really involved it
actively in any of the course work I've done, to this point
doesn't mean that I won't do it in the future
If the way is available or if the means are available
but currently I do not believe I know of, at least in the area I'm working in
and the campus that I belong to is the University of Oklahoma
of a particular land-spot that the University owns and can actually utilize
Dr. Brixey: Do you see how you might be able to use some of the
lessons learned from working in high fidelity simulation
to working in Second Life for simulation?
Dr. Erdley: Certainty, there are, the idea of different fidelities if you will
truthfulness of the environment or the context
makes a big difference to the user's experience
University of Washington has their community college,
the folks that are there and I forget the names, forgive me for that
They created an ambiance, an environment that is very true to life if you will
in terms of markers and wave forms
How you interact with patients, the context if you will of that environment
and that holds true to both the high fidelity slash immersive simulation
environment as well as to the Second Life or virtual environment
we endeavor, from a training stand-point it helps,
contextually for the students slash users
to be in an environment they're similar to reality if you will
and that helps with the experience, the overall experience
that they will encounter in the course of whatever the scenario is
There's also a meeting ground between the two
something you would call augmented reality
Where you would have some reality
some sort of immersive simulation, high fidelity patient
Where you would then utilize it within a virtual feedback if you will
goggles, or. There are various caves around where you
have a blending of the two technologies
But the idea of a fidelity has a bearing on it
because that's how users tend to make the experience real
to them it's the context, it plays a big role
Dr. Brixey: So today we have this sense of realism
having this conversation in Second Life
It feels much like if we were sitting in the same room together
having a conversation
Dr. Erdley: It works really well in that way
now that they've cleared up bugs with sound
the bugs aren't always clear
They still raise their heads if you will at times
The one interaction we had at a meeting at that college in New Zealand
we ended up having to use Skype to converse and yet use Second Life
for the actual physical presence
Dr. Brixey: I agree, sounds, audio can sometimes be a challenge
in Second Life
but overall, it works pretty well
Dr. Erdley: Agree
Dr. Brixey: Scott, I'd like to ask you a bit about ethics
in Second Life and I know you have an interest in that area
Could you explain in more detail
your thoughts on ethics in Second Life?
Dr. Erdley: It's an interesting concept
that we have a world where we can create and be and do what we want, literally
And yet the idea is, do we bring our reality based ethics
with us in to this context?
There are some groups that are specialty groups
when I was looking around at Second Life,
when I was contemplating this whole issue
that talk about ethics, medical ethics, but they tend to talk about it
effective topic, not so much what they are or who they are
and it's interested me because I don't believe we as people
Even though we create a new identity physically
in a virtual realm such as SL
that we can truly divorce our ethical composition
our ethical beliefs and values, excuse me, to the point that we are
not who we truly are, even though we dress differently in Second Life
I think we are ultimately linked to what we are and who we are in reality
It does become, and it is portrayed to a lesser or greater degree
in our virtual life still comes through if you will
It's a project I would like to pursue, I have not actually had the chance
to pursue it at this point, but none the less it's something I've found interesting
because it would mean that in other contexts
we truly do have a value or belief or
moral system that we carry with us
no matter where we are whether it's virtual or
whether it's geographically disparate from where we developed it
and or where we live
So I'm really kind of fascinated about that
I truly find it very interesting this whole idea of ethics in, around where
you can bend it as much as or as little as you want
you can bring over as much or as little as you want
can we truly do that? That's the question
And, the research on that topic would be novel to say the least
The idea though is how do you tie that into reality
and how will that impact? It may impact something say in the gaming industry
The idea of people who play games all the time become more violent
true or false? Tends to be false
But, try it in context and see if we can truly divorce ourselves
of our values in an environment can be anything we want to be
It's very interesting
Dr. Brixey: I agree and hopefully that you'll begin to have time to
begin research in that area and we'll look for your publications
I have another question about Second Life
We've talked about it in the realm of education and now ethics
and your interest in Second Life, but what value do you see
for the use of Second Life for patients and consumers?
Dr. Erdley: A lot out there. A lot of special interest groups in terms of Second Life
and even something more basic as the actual utilization of the technology
There is a growing community of autistic patients or autistic clients
who are very adept at communicating using Information Technology
using a computer
they can keyboard and then have the text converted to speech
and it provides a whole new realm of insight
into who these people are, who they really are
and the intelligence of these people it's just outstanding
it astounds one when all you here is someone making ranting and raving noises
yet when they sit down at a keyboard, they can type out their inner most thoughts
and the computer will speak it and that's just something very basic
Second Life provides an opportunity on another level
for people who are physically challenged, long as they can get in and
have a means of interacting they can be whoever they want
there are YouTube clips galore if you look for
do a search on Second Life and handicapped, physical handicaps
There's a fair number of patients who are quads or paraplegics
who, in Second Life, whether they become, whether they are in that condition
whether traumatic event or whether it's by birth
In Second Life they can be whoever they want
There's a very popular one of a woman who has MS
To the degree that she's not bed-bound, but wheel chair bound
and yet she goes into Second Life and she dances and swims
and does everything she can't do in reality, she can do and is free to do in Second Life
There are tales, there's actually a story of a young man who is bed-bound
by MD, muscular dystrophy, and he's always been bed-bound
and when he was able to interface and interact in Second Life
you want it to be mobile, he didn't chose walking or running
he chose a wheelchair because that's all he knew as being mobile
So in Second Life he's in a wheel chair, but there's all sorts of people who interact
in Second Life that in reality are totally geographically constrained
to wherever they're currently at by their physical condition
It's a truly free environment for people of that nature
And there're also mental health therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists
who also utilize environment for interacting with their patients
because it allows patients in that context to be whatever they need or want to be
and it may in fact be such a neutral stance that it will allow them to be
better treated by therapy in this context
so there's a lot out there for patients and consumers
Your respective of what they are in reality
to become more whole if you will in virtual reality
Dr. Brixey: I think you said it very well
That there's great potential in Second Life for the consumers
and for people with disabilities to find freedom in movement
to experience the work in another way
but for those of thus that're mobile, we could also have the opportunity to
experience the challenges of those in wheel chairs or bed-bound
Dr. Erdley: First the field if you will and try it from that perspective
Dr. Brixey: Absolutely, the sights for schizophrenics
the experience of being a schizophrenic is truly amazing
And, I would suggest for anyone's that's listening to our conversation today
to take a trip to that island
It gives you a whole new experience
Dr: Erdley: I'm sure it does, I've not had a chance to engage that way
but it would be eyeopening to say the least from my perspective
there's another ability if you wanted to see what it's like to be blind
we can certainty give that a go, but you're right about the role-reversal if you will
and the possibilities are endless in Second Life
Dr. Brixey: Dr. Erdley, I have one final question for you
Using Dr. Erdley's crystal ball, what do you see as the future
of Second Life and other virtual worlds in education and simulation?
Dr. Erdley: This is always a fun one to think about
and it truly is, the limitation is strictly creativity, I believe
Accessibility certainly plays a role, and with the increased prevalence of broadband
within the US and without the US
I think the next direction it's going to go is mobility, the ability to interact
on smaller and smaller devices that are becoming a main-stay for society
The smartphone issue. Sony has come out with
a Playstation hand-held that is three-dimensional
and I think that is going to be a direction that people will go towards at some point
Interesting option to think about where to go from here
traditionally I see more expansion of Second Life and or that kind of
It's probably more immolation than simulation of reality
To a degree for certain people
But, whatever it is I see more of it in an educational venue
Because it can be, the only down side is requiring
Interactions require real people on the back-end of the avatars
There may be development and there certainly is development
in the world for self learning avatars that do not require some one on the back side
to actually be the avatar, if you will
and when that starts developing then you will start having literally the
virtual worlds where you can interact with anybody, and anything
and not know whether there is a real person or not on the back side
and that will really be interesting to see what happens when that truly does happen
Otherwise, I think that there may be competitors,
more competitors, there have always been competitors to Second Life
as the first one that made this sort of interaction viable
I think there will be additional, and there may be improvements such that
going and coming will be come easier, you'll just kind of
instead of clicking and launching you'll just kind of go in and out
and you may actually have it transparently on your desktop where it's going on all the time
and you just interact and in-fact your whole operating system becomes virtual
where you interact with your files and what have you
just like you do in virtual reality here where you can walk around and grab
you may walk though the file instead of actually typing
There's a bunch of different ways for interacting in the environment
utilizing this kind of context for people for instance who
can't type and yet we can talk, now we can talk and hear
you see a text speech come out see your own words if you will
and then manipulate them that way
It's a bunch of different things, different ways to interact with people and things
that I think it will become more common as it gets easier
for people to interact with the actual application that it becomes more transparent and ubiquitous
the limitation truly will be once creativity
Dr. Brixey: And Dr. Erdley, is there anything else you would like to share with us
that I have not asked a question about?
Dr. Erdley: The only thing is, I try to tell students, everybody,
If you're wanting to get into something like this for technology
do it when you have a chance to play around, learn it while it's fun
cause when you have to learn it, it's not as fun
So, take the time if you're interested in any sort of the technology
and start playing around with it, you'll learn it
and you'll become much more facile and adept with it
in a less threatening environment to enjoy to enjoy that technology with
and keep in mind your creativity is the one that's on this, not so much the hardware or software
Your creativity
That's about it