Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
it's side so what do you
making it
lawton that answer that i think we we we can talk about because i think um...
uh... you know
i think there's two
would you could write another book i think on
corruption uh... and i don't mean corruption
in terms of graft amin the serve the corruption uh...
of crime-fighting if you will in this country based upon
corporate measures of ito numbers of boston alan and i think uh... there's
been much written on how but this is really hurt me even and police
departments
um...
the the
this serious pursuit of serious crimes because
as people need to pad their statistics and at the statistics are the way that
people get promoted statistics are the way that
initiatives get funded and maintain their funding eccentric cetera
but let's go back what do you make of uh... now
in response you book i guess uh... couple months ago
always have fun who was the f_b_i_ agent who got some acclaim because he was the
one uh...
alden uh... criticizing the torturous team in this country
and uh... he wrote a piece of the wall street journal saying that at least part
of your book was off-base in in-kind being so critical
the f_b_i_
indeed didn't like
in many respects what would a defense attorney would call in travnik
and i'll ask you how how this is not intranet but but but first
hum
logo the criticism that look the f_b_i_ needs to do this
because
you know if they're if one out of a hundred
you know just using your statistics one out of a hundred as a real case one of
these jokes that you talk about could actually have hooked up with
uh... somehow with ideas
the eight more sophisticated
terrorist syndicate
uh...
the results could have been catastrophic what what what's your response for
something like that
getting up at the mall i i i think it was uh... i could point out that alexa
on certainly had a a bone to pick would be in writing that review because
uh... i would like to critical of monica cases in the book
i'm a sting operation but certainly had
uh... from buyer from that review but i think i might of what i like about all
the coupons review he didn't
by not trying to give does need to be actually proved my point in many ways
and wicked
and he responded very critical of the f_b_i_ refund to my work and what they
think what all the good part of the f_b_i_ faith that
the sting operation
are not the fairy
because
look over there there's a terrorist
and they point to men like five ish about the man who delivered the bomb the
prime square
or not people about the or the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber
i think they're both of like terrorism sting operations are necessary
but the problem with it
i believe is that
in bed at showing that tear the sting operations where necessary to get into
that showed prepare them thing operations are catching the right
paraffin edit this tape you despite fifteen thousand informants being used
by the f_b_i_ today
and thank you very graphic sting operation
beefing operation aren't catching ideas out there not catching common farmania
in boston
and that they're catching them
who on their own aren't capable of committing an act of terror at them
unlike budgets not by michael internet the unlike the men
electrified cited in his review
and i think i think the the
the leap of logic that they make
in in just a fine parenting operation
if the tape
well this men with interested to committing an act of terror at them
he didn't have the capability
but you know what
maybe someday someone
would have provided the capability someone from archive at the local
affiliate organization would have provided the capability that we
at the f_b_i_ working undercover did through the sting operation
and and that the worthwhile theory of the problem is that it never occurred
um there hadn't been a case yet where you have this the total idiot
can't you know build a bomb on its own doesn't have connection to tear them who
meet the net because if you think you need to know how to operate we provide
to me the opportunity instead the sting operation
are really catching the people who don't have the means would be likely never
would have the means
well at the feet high and the people that are truly dangerous
you know colin time may have for example when he was building his pressure cooker
bombay home with never on the f_b_i_'s radar
while they were pursuing sting operation
against people very questionable danger and a very questionable important and
what i think that i believe
is that a lot easier to catch
that low hanging fruit but i think that low hanging fruit i thought that too
your balloting violence to admit legal economically desperate and we'll get
lured into tear the sting operation
that idiot to really rude out that make me dhoni ki haystack of truly dangerous
terrified budget that
and com internet
and what the f_b_i_ program over the last decade have shown
is that they've been a willful you have a quick
in catching truly dangerous terror for four they strike
but they've been really great
at catching the if you look at the ballot violence
but don't have the mean time around
and through the collaborative expensive sting operation
provide everything that they need to become arafat
on their own they never would have been able to become in the point is is that
by going after this low hanging fruit at there is uh... we have finite resources
and we're expanding our resources in
the wrong place
i think that that we write you know do you get the ag
uh... budgeted eight billion dollars every year and three billion of that go
to counter-terrorism
and at the largest in the portion of the area it more than that
organized crime and financial fraud and or spending a lot of money
treating this inviolate where we're catching people
uh... our cable but but expire to be capable in the f_b_i_ parent
deep men are more after original that operational
and yet
at a time we're missing really significant crimes
we're we're performing were failing to prevent for example
problem turning up in five uh... before they strike
and if you look at the the previous decades
you know we had uh... financial fraud
and mortgage fraud
honesty olga such great level that it it crippled the world economy
and those two areas were a wreath at the f_b_i_ normally would have investigated
prior to its put final event focused on
counter-terrorism attacking a question that
it fair to activate where we got the focused on these expense elaborate sting
operation
could we have prevented other crimes before they occur hui printed mercury
front budget the true terra four for example
into the financial and mortgage fraud we thought a lot beckett
me i i mean it's
in their model
the immediate seems to me that just
based on your research their model seems to be
we're gonna get all
potential dukes
who could somehow fall into the sway um... echo who could be uh... in some
respects like you know of unmanned drone
more nefarious forces who are basically set these people up to be carriers or or
do
you got to do the duri work
does the f_b_i_
in this equation you know there's two there's two parties here right there is
the there's the dukes
and then there's the sort of sinister
or pretty enablers i guess
and uh...
as we're discussing here the f_b_i_ has been functioning as those serious
enablers does the f_b_i_ do investigations or stains where they play
the dupes
and that they're sick it dare teasing out the serious in a believes because i
think
you know you could
it seems to me that that would be a far more
or a fishing uh...
uh... use
of i mean
even step you know stipulating all right we're gonna give them flu
the
the distribution that they should be spending this much time on this type of
stuff which i think is an arguable proposition but just in the in their own
in their own world today however setups things where they had their dupes have
they ever caught
uh... sort of that nefarious agent who is going to
uh... provide for that dupes the the wherewithal to do something seriously
damaging
that would require den uh... you know and we we can only got a big big on
what become public you know we write f_b_i_ prosecution that
and to you know i think they put the caveat that we don't know everything
because it's on the top of the f_b_i_ have prevented
something that four
national security purposes they could make public but if you look at the
prosecution's there have been ever been a case like that where the f_b_i_ poses
that the deep
to catch the enabler
and and that either meet a couple of things indeed i mean
uh... that the aren't doing the type of thing operations
or you know
more likely i believe
uh... prepping deep don't beat the number there are many enablers and in
the i think
trying to make you know
caricom possible forty feet addict only the f_b_i_ that doing co
but isn't that they the threat of involve a terrible compare them
doesn't that mean i think clearly if that clearly what we thought about that
it's an example of that but i think on what we are keen
is that level of conspiracy that the f_b_i_
seem to believe it does
through the use of the sting operations and by that i mean
their our people and a lot of people working for a quite a
or affiliate with al-qaeda
who have access to weapons and bombs
and they're looking for someone that they can copper upon she will be
approved by bomber
but not happening until in if you look at the
a record of of prosecution dr dot eleven at the paper through a cheer
making that judgment
it's clear that the f_b_i_ bomb attack in the duke anything catching in table
if the reader
that opportunity in a bowlers or the only people who are enabling these
crimes by the f_b_i_ itself
and and
that's when they go to trial and it seems to me this is
no uh...
this is a perfect example of the truck i mean in some way they're doing
just basically
uh...
uh... they're setting people up at it just seems like a uh... a clearcut case
have been traveling at least in the ones that do you know the
sort of clear ones anyways
absolutely you know it is important to remember q-tip what what kinda
lehman think of and japan of entrapment but but the everyday person think that i
think i want to talk about it at the top indifferent
then the legal definition of entrapment in the legal definition of cabinet
it much harder to prove
armpit even harder to hard to prove anything a simple case tina fey
buffet you stole a car and you were instigated a detail by an undercover
agent
in approving a traveling even coming with a couple of that other than the
lowly effect of that
uh... it difficult because the requires you to go to the jury
and take a you know what
i did that crime i'm guilty other but i would have been able to do it we're not
for the f_b_i_ agent for the where they undercover lawn for e-cadherin format
overwhelming my free will to be fell and the f_b_i_ has been very attractive in
arguing against entrapment
for a couple of reasons then
so far eleven defendants in the terrorism sting operation to formally
argued entrapment and uh... and none has been successful
and the reason for that it was billed as a couple of things one it that the
f_b_i_ by controlling all aspects of the plot
if is really have a kind of go big or go home and ality
and phil while they they take the people who on their own aren't capable
they could choose to give them a simple thought they could play
give them a handgun and they go into the mall and shoot somebody in the new york
give them a night to go to the mall
and sheep from other stab someone in the back
instead
they give them these bombs that even if the fifty k from organization couldn't
obtain that
if they were real and if they truly detonated with level buildings with
level city blocks
would destroy a public that the pulpit link doesn't that the hundreds of people
and what that does it would depend when legal but what legal thoughtfully but
that it overwhelm the jury for any kind of empathy needed to establish an
entrapment that because they think
while you know this person want the bomb
it downtown building my brother workfare i worked there
uh... they were the but on the public that the body of the public that them
that could have been me
and it's much harder to have that empathy for someone
who the government
described as wanting to blow up city block
that if they have empathy for someone who says well they stole a car because
they're up there will overwhelmed or they stopped on the back because there
will be overwhelmed
i think i'm the government
in arguing and entrapment uh... can can try to prove the cop rediff position
which is that you
plotting for that type of crime
prior to the introduction of the government agent
and indeed terrorism cases the f_b_i_
ended up on it i thought that was a really low
and i believe that special barbara proving predicted it predisposition
and that is they can ship they can put they put government on expert on the
stand you have
generally dubious credentialed these are people who
daily work for established university either come from background but most
experts to and they testified that you know what that curtain
wafted militantly hoti video
and he was one of our kind of classic and that means that
he was interested in committing an act of terrorism and they they talk about
how people who watch militantly hoti videos or go on extremist forums are
the extremist literature
in a *** like chart insert people who
wanna commit acts of terrorism
quality i think that patty ridiculed if i've read that material i watch the
videos i'm not interested in coming an act of terrorism
just of hundreds and thousands and tens of thousands of americans have done
anything
uh... in-flight i don't think that without theory but at the but the pain
timed it to the web
something that really have held up with jerry
and the coupling of those two things the the showing of someone watching
militantly hoti video and then their involvement in plot
that are just horrific and scope
really overwhelmed the jury construction agree that that entrapment haven't been
possible at the fence
even though the evidence in these cases clearly shows
the defendant could not committed the crimes were not for the f_b_i_
and even those several cases have involved
informant's caught on tape offering impeachment
like money for example if the defendant will carry forward in their terrorist
plot
z
eight minutes
it's uh... it
on the coming out
and obviously that didn't sort of a where there's been a bit it's did you
come across and any of your reporting any other techniques and the because you
know it just seems like uh...
uh... and maybe i'm i'm seeing too big of a
of the uh...
uh... of uh... of a scope to this
but it seems to be indicative of sir that almost a societal why problem we
have
in that
the f_b_i_ d
sir that he
which operation to cover their *** because the f_b_i_ could be doing things
that uh...
would be far last sort of notable and quantifiable
that could keep us a
uh...
they would not be able to get necessarily the same on credit for
indeed the absence of infiltrating let's say
uh...
muslim
college group so
or spying on people
all uh... and whatnot uh... would obviously enhance relationships in me
people in these communities might know
of some marginal character
uh... that is uh... you know somebody to be watching for but the f_b_i_ would not
necessarily get the credit
to just from a mechanic simply going back to this how do you have to live
find these guys so i mean do they just go and basically troll
chatboard sir
and yet they've got an a in a short of the in get devil tend to do with it the
way that one thing is that the f_b_i_ will
what role forum company
seems like they spoke looking for com people who post
uh... extremist comments you know for example if it's not uncommon indicated
for the investigation to begin because an informant for f_b_i_ employees saw
someone put something inflammatory or extremist on face book and then and
inform it will be assigned to get to know this person and then if they had to
think they have to pay rhythm move along in the process
uh... you know there's also been examples of the f_b_i_ uh... sending
informants
indiscriminately into muslim communities looking for people who want to commit an
act of act of terror them uh... there that are the pain of cape outside near
theatrical involving formatted became known as the new work for
and uh... they came to the f_b_i_'s attention through an f_b_i_ informant to
uh... had committed fraud on a down and then you know teh to work office
sentence became an f_b_i_ informant later converted to being a paid
informant and he went into maneuver community for ten months eat role both
ma for ten months
looking for anyone who could uh... alluded to think they have to violent
exactly what that one maf so frequently that they invited him to talk to the
joined the board of directors
and he couldn't find anyone interested in coming out to tear them and after ten
months he finally meet in the parking lot this uh... that's man who works at
walmart to rather at the history of mental illness and also had a very crude
understanding of islam and he's the one he was able to shepherd into a terrorism
sting operation and until working at the iv evacuate that the f_b_i_ identify p
part yet uh... and then they're usually done through the the targets after
typing of the first amendment however on top of that i think that it might be
program i mean you know by by expressing uh... something on a ana messageboard
broad-based book or by playing to an informant that you know they really hate
the u_s_ foreign policy gabriel in public should be done about it and these
are the type of things that will trigger for the f_b_i_ uh... a push in by an
informant turn on the coverage of the faith well do you want to be more than
just talk about violence do you wanna commit violent and that's really how the
type of thing operation began
first