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>WELCOME TO TIME FOR HOPE AND FAITH BASED MENTAL HEALTH
PROGRAM I'M DR. FREDA CREWS YOUR HOST AND I AM BEING JOINED TODAY
BY PSYCHOTHERAPIST, COUNSELOR AND SEMINARY PROFESSOR DR.
RICHARD WINTER AND WE WILL BE DISCUSSING HIS BOOK TITLED WHEN
LIFE GOES DARK AND SUBTITLED FINDING HOPE IN THE MIDST OF
DEPRESSION. SINCE THE FAILURE OF OUR FIRST PARENTS IN THE GARDEN
OF EDEN MANKIND HAS BEEN STALKED BY THIS PROFOUNDLY CRIPPLING
CONDITION AND IT KNOWS NO BOUNDARIES RELATED TO WHO AND
WHEN. ONE IN EVERY EIGHT PERSONS ACROSS THE GLOBE WILL BECOME THE
VICTIM OF A SEVERE DEPRESSIVE EPISODE DURING THEIR LIFETIME
AND THIS INCLUDES CHRISTIANS AND NON-CHRISTIANS ALIKE. BUT HOPE
CAN BE PURSUED AND EXPERIENCED. TO HEAR MORE STAY WITH US.
>AND RICHARD IT'S GREAT HAVING YOU BACK ON TIME FOR HOPE.
>WELL IT'S GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN FREDA.
>IT HAS BEEN A FEW YEARS AND THEY HAVE PASSED SWIFTLY HAVEN'T
THEY? YES, I'M GOING TO TELL YOU IN FRONT OF ALL OF MY VIEWERS
WHAT I SAID OFF CAMERA AND THAT IS YOU HAVE DONE ONE OF THE MOST
COMPREHENSIVE JOB, I DON'T KNOW I GUESS I WOULD CALL IT A JOB OR
WRITING ABOUT DEPRESSION THAT I BELIEVE I HAVE EVER SEEN.
>WELL THAT'S GOOD TO HEAR. I HOPE IT'S NOT TOO DENSE AND TOO
DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.
>WELL I ACTUALLY COULD SEE MYSELF IN YOUR CLASS AND ALSO IT
BROUGHT BACK MY OWN TRAINING AND GAVE ME A GREAT REVIEW IN THINGS
THAT I PROBABLY HAD FORGOTTEN I HAD LEARNED AT SOME TIME OR
OTHER. BUT NO YOU'VE DONE A GREAT JOB ALSO OF PUTTING IT IN
A WAY THAT OUR VIEWERS, THE AVERAGE VIEWER OUT THERE COULD
READ THIS BOOK AND NO I DON'T THINK IT'S TOO DENSE AND I DON'T
THINK IT'S TOO COMPLEX AT ALL FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON.
>WELL THAT'S GOOD THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO. AND IT'S TRUE
I DO USE IT IN MY CLASS WHEN I'M TEACHING COUNSELORS AND TEACHING
PASTORS AS WELL.
>WELL THEN I WOULD SAY IT PROVIDES THAT FOR THEM. AND THEN
WHAT I LIKED WAS YOUR SELF-DISCLOSURE AS YOU TEACH AND
AS I WAS TAUGHT TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH SELF-DISCLOSURE AND
ALWAYS TRY TO BE APPROPRIATE WITH OUR SELF-DISCLOSURE IN
COUNSELING. BUT IN YOUR BOOK YOU DID THE SELF-DISCLOSING TELLING
YOUR OWN STORY OF HAVING GONE THROUGH DEPRESSION. AND LIKE YOU
BRING OUT IN YOUR BOOK WHO HASN'T?
>THAT'S RIGHT, YES.
>AT SOME TIME IN THEIR LIFE WHO HASN'T EXPERIENCED SOME LEVEL OF
DEPRESSION, AND SOME WORSE THAN OTHERS. AND THEN SOME POOR
PEOPLE BLESS THEIR HEARTS ARE LEFT WITH IT MOST OF THEIR LIVES.
>THAT'S RIGHT, YES AND THANKFULLY IT WAS NEVER VERY
DEEP OR FOR VERY LONG FOR ME BUT IT GAVE ME A GLIMPSE INTO THE
SORT OF DEEP DARK PLACES OF LIFE THAT SOME PEOPLE SPEND A LOT OF
TIME IN AND I HAVE MUCH MORE EMPATHY AND UNDERSTANDING OF
THAT NOW HAVING TOUCHED IT A LITTLE BIT MYSELF. THERE WAS ONE
POINT NOT THAT LONG AGO WHEN I SAID TO MY WIFE I FEEL LIKE A
SHIP THAT'S GOING DOWN THAT'S SINKING AND IT FELT LIKE MY
WHOLE BODY WAS BEING DRAGGED INTO SOME VORTEX OF DARKNESS FOR
A WHILE THROUGH VARIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES THAT HAD OCCURRED
IN MY LIFE THAT SEEMED TO PRECIPITATE THAT.
>SO THAT WOULD BE A REACTIVE DEPRESSION THEN, WOULD YOU SAY
IT WAS A REACTIVE DEPRESSION THAT YOU WERE EXPERIENCING? YOU
WERE REACTING, IT WAS CAUSING A STRESS WITHIN YOUR BODY BUT IT
ALSO STILL AFFECTS OUR CHEMICALS AND OUR BRAIN DOESN'T IT?
>THAT'S RIGHT. YES I THINK FOR ME IT WAS REACTIVE AND THE OTHER
TIME THAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE INTRODUCTION YEARS AGO WHEN
THERE WERE A LOT OF LOSSES IN MY LIFE. MY SISTER DIED IN
CHILDBIRTH AND MY WIFE GOT CANCER AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS
HAPPENED AROUND THAT TIME. SO IT WAS PARTLY REACTION TO THAT AND
IT WAS ALSO REACTING WITH MY OWN UNIQUE VULNERABILITY AND
SENSITIVITY WHICH IS PARTLY PSYCHOLOGICAL, PARTLY
BIOCHEMICAL. AND FOR SOME PEOPLE THEY HAVE A MUCH GREATER
BIOCHEMICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL VULNERABILITY AND THEY MAY BE
PLUNGED INTO DEEP DEPRESSION EVEN WITH VERY FEW EXTERNAL
CIRCUMSTANCES PUSHING THEM DOWN ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO ARE
VULNERABLE TO BIPOLAR OR MANIC DEPRESSION TYPE OF DEPRESSION.
>AND THEN WE GET THE WORD RESILIENCE. THERE ARE THOSE THAT
ARE MORE RESILIENT TO THE STRESSES OF LIFE. BUT GRIEF,
WHEN THERE IS GRIEF FROM A SIGNIFICANT LOSS AS A GENERAL
RULE THERE IS ALWAYS DEPRESSION FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. HAVE YOU
FOUND THAT TRUE?
>WELL IT'S INTERESTING IN THE CHAPTER ON GRIEF I TALK ABOUT
THE DIFFERENCES IN THE WAY THAT PEOPLE RESPOND TO LOSS. EITHER
THE LOSS OF A PERSON OR THE LOSS OF A HOUSE OR SOMETHING THAT'S
REALLY SIGNIFICANT TO THEM.
>OF COURSE IT WOULD HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT KIND OF LOSS AND
WHETHER IT'S A FINITE LOSS OR AN INFINITE LOSS.
>AND SOME PEOPLE COME THROUGH THAT WITHOUT A WHOLE LOT OF
DEPRESSION OR DEEP SADNESS AND MOST PEOPLE EXPERIENCE SOME DEEP
PERIOD OF SADNESS. JUST RECENTLY I LOST MY 99-YEAR-OLD MOTHER AND
WE'D BEEN PREPARING FOR THAT FOR A LONG TIME BECAUSE SHE WAS SO
OLD. BUT THERE WAS A DEEP; JUST ON THE DAY SHE DIED I WAS JUST
OVERWHELMED WITH A DEEP DEEP SADNESS AND SORT OF SOBBING
GRIEF. BUT SINCE THEN THERE HASN'T BEEN A WHOLE LOT OF GRIEF
THERE WAS JUST A THANKFULNESS FOR HER LIFE. WHEREAS I THINK
WHEN THERE IS A GRIEF WHERE SOMEONE DIES TOTALLY
UNEXPECTEDLY, YOU KNOW OUT OF THE BLUE, SAY A CHILD AND IT MAY
GO ON FOR MUCH LONGER. AND FOR ABOUT 10% OF PEOPLE WHO
EXPERIENCE GRIEF THAT WILL GO ON INTO WHAT WE WOULD CALL A
CLINICAL DEPRESSION WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM GRIEF AND I THINK
GRIEF IS A VERY NORMAL RESPONSE TO SAD THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN A
BROKEN WORLD. IT'S NOT AN ABNORMALITY. YOU KNOW JESUS WAS
GRIEVING WHEN HE LOST HIS FRIEND LAZARUS AND SO GRIEF DOESN'T
NEED TO BE TREATED AS AN ILLNESS IN A WAY THAT SERIOUS CLINICAL
DEPRESSION DOES.
>BUT WHEN IT'S ABNORMAL GRIEF AND GOES ON FOR TOO LONG AND
THERE'S NOT THE HELP AND THE SUPPORT AND SO ON AND SO FORTH
IT CAN BECOME AND LEAD ONE INTO A SEVERE DEPRESSION. BUT WITH
YOUR MOM THAT WOULD BE ANTICIPATORY GRIEF SO THAT COMES
EASIER THAN THE ACUTE GRIEF THAT YOU MENTIONED IN THE SUDDEN LOSS
OF A CHILD. OR JUST RECENTLY FROM A RESTAURANT THAT I ATTEND
FREQUENTLY ONE OF THE WAITRESSES WORKED LIKE ONE DAY, THAT NIGHT
WENT TO BED AND DIED IN HER SLEEP AT 38 YEARS OLD.
>OH MY GOODNESS.
>YES SO CAN YOU IMAGINE A HUSBAND AND A FAMILY AND SO
FORTH, THAT WOULD BE THE ACUTE GRIEF BECAUSE I HAD TALKED TO
SOME OF HER COWORKERS AND THEY SAID THAT SHE WAS FINE THAT DAY.
>THAT WOULD BE SHOCK AND DISBELIEF AND IT WOULD TAKE A
WHILE PROBABLY FOR THE DEEPEST PAIN OF THAT TO REALLY HIT THE
PERSON WOULDN'T IT? IT MIGHT BE SOME DAYS, WEEKS LATER THAT THEY
WOULD REALLY BEGIN TO FEEL THE PAIN OF THAT.
>BUT I THINK WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT
DEPRESSION WE'RE LOOKING AT A BIOLOGICAL COMPONENT. WE'RE
LOOKING AT A PHYSIOLOGICAL COMPONENT WHICH OF COURSE THE
BIOLOGICAL, SO BODY, MIND, SOUL AND SPIRIT.
>THE WHOLE PERSON.
>THE WHOLE PERSON.
>AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH SEVERE DEPRESSION
FROM THE MILDER DISAPPOINTMENTS AND DISCOURAGEMENTS. YOU KNOW WE
ALL HAVE TIMES WHEN WE GET UP IN THE MORNING AND WE FEEL A BIT
BLUE AND IT'S A BAD DAY. BUT SERIOUS DEPRESSION NEEDS TO BE
DISTINGUISHED FROM THOSE BECAUSE THOSE ARE THINGS THAT HAPPEN TO
EVERYONE. AND THE DANGER IS I THINK TODAY IS THAT WE'RE LOSING
THE LANGUAGE. YOU KNOW WHEN YOU HAVE ADVERTISEMENTS, COMMERCIALS
ON TELEVISION FOR ANYONE WHO FEELS A BIT DISCOURAGED,
DEPRESSED, ANXIOUS THEN THEY NEED ANTIDEPRESSANTS, THEY NEED
PROZAC OR WHATEVER IT IS, THE LATEST ANTIDEPRESSANT, THEN
PEOPLE TEND TO THINK THAT ALL DARK MOODS NEED TREATMENT AS IF
THEY WERE AN ILLNESS AND THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL. IT'S ONLY THE
DEEPEST TYPE OF DEPRESSION THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE RECOGNIZED
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T RECOGNIZE IT. THEY DON'T KNOW
THE SIGNS OF IT, THEY DON'T GET ADEQUATE HELP WHEN THEY ARE IN
THAT VERY DARK PLACE OF LIFE BECAUSE IT OFTEN COMES ON SLOWLY
AND GRADUALLY AND IT'S LIKE THE PROVERBIAL FROG IN THE KETTLE.
THE STRESS GRADUALLY BUILDS UP AND YOU DON'T KNOW QUITE HOW BAD
YOU ARE UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE POINTS IT OUT TO YOU OR YOU GET
INTO SOME CRISIS IN LIFE.
>THAT ALSO IT'S ANOTHER THING AND I'M NOT SURE THAT I PICKED
UP ON THAT IN YOUR BOOK A DEPRESSION THAT COMES WITH AGING
AS ONE FACES THE REALITY JUST TO SAY THAT YES I THINK THAT MANY
PEOPLE IN OLDER AGE ARE LOSING SO MANY THINGS AND IT'S HARD TO
COME TO TERMS WITH THE LOSS OF HEALTH, WITH THE LOSS OF
FRIENDS, MAYBE THE LOSS OF ONE'S INDEPENDENCE, THE NEED TO BE ON
LOTS OF MEDICATIONS, ALL OF THOSE THINGS I THINK MAKE LIFE A
LOT MORE DIFFICULT. MY MOTHER-IN-LAW ALWAYS SAID AS YOU
MAY HAVE HEARD OLD AGE IS NOT FOR SISSIES. AND THERE'S A LOT
OF TRUTH IN THAT, IT'S A TOUGH TIME OF LIFE UNLESS YOU HAVE A
VERY GOOD CARING FAMILY AND A LOT OF HELP AND BASICALLY GOOD
HEALTH, THAT IS A HUGE GIFT.
>AND A STRONG FAITH, A STRONG FAITH IN THE LORD AND HIS WORD
AND WHERE THEY'RE GOING.
>THAT WAS CERTAINLY TRUE FOR MY MOTHER THANKFULLY.
>THAT SHE HAD THAT STRONG FAITH. WELL IT'S TIME FOR A BREAK AND
WE WILL BE RIGHT BACK.
_DR. HAVENS I'M VERY HAPPY TO HAVE YOU. I JUST THOUGHT ABOUT
IT AND I THOUGHT YOU WOULD BE A TREMENDOUS RESOURCE TO SHARE
YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT DEPRESSION AND THE ANTIDEPRESSANTS THAT YOU
USE IN YOUR PRACTICE. YOU'RE IN A FULL-TIME PRACTICE IN ROSWELL
GEORGIA AND FOUNDER OF THE ARK AND ACTUALLY WE COULD SAY THAT
YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN PSYCHIATRIST AND SO FORTH. SO I HAVE SOME
QUESTIONS ABOUT MEDICATION AND I KNOW THIS IS ONE OF YOUR AREAS
OF EXPERTISE. WHAT KINDS OF ANTIDEPRESSANTS ARE THERE? IN
OTHER WORDS THERE'S A RANGE OF THEM. _THERE ARE IN MOST PEOPLE
ARE FAMILIAR WITH WHAT HE CALLED THE SSRIS AND THE SNRIS, THEY'RE
THE SEROTONIN HELPERS AND SEROTONIN NOREPINEPHRINE HELPERS
AND THOSE ARE THE MAIN NEUROTRANSMITTERS INVOLVED IN
WHAT WE CALL DEPRESSION. THERE ARE ALSO A NUMBER OF OTHER ONES,
MONOAMINE OXIDASE INHIBITORS WHICH YOU SEE WHEN YOU GO TO THE
DRUGSTORE AND THEY SAY BE CAREFUL, HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE,
THAT SORT OF THING. ALTHOUGH ALMOST NOBODY PRESCRIBES THOSE
ANYMORE THEY ARE VERY GOOD. THEN THERE'S THE OLDER KIND THE
TRICYCLICS AND THOSE AREN'T USED A LOT BECAUSE OF SIDE EFFECTS.
WE HAVE THIS NEW GENERATION OF SEROTONIN HELPERS, ZOLOFT,
PROZAC WAS THE FIRST ONE AND ZOLOFT, PAXIL, CELEXA , LEXAPRO
AND THOSE ARE USED A LOT. AND THEN THE LATEST ONES BIIBRYD AND
I ACTUALLY ASKED SOMEBODY ONCE IN THE PHARMACY AND THE
PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY HOW THEY COME UP WITH THE NAMES AND THEY
STOOD AROUND THE TABLE AND THEY THROW OUT SOUND BITES AND
WHATEVER FITS FOR THEM THAT'S WHAT THEY CALL IT. THAT'S WHAT
THE NAMES ARE SO UNUSUAL. BUT I THINK THERE'S A MISUNDERSTANDING
ABOUT WHAT DEPRESSION IS. IT CONTRIBUTES TO THE MAIN PART OF
THE CONFUSION IS THAT THEY'RE NOT HAPPY PILLS IN THE FIRST
PLACE. AND DEPRESSION IS REALLY A NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEM AND WE
NEED ANOTHER NAME FOR IT. IT NEEDS TO BE SEROTONIN RECEPTOR
DOWN REGULATION SYNDROME OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT BECAUSE
THAT'S REALLY WHAT IT IS AND THEN IT'S MANIFESTED BY
SOMETIMES BAD FEELINGS AND SADNESS BUT SLEEP, APPETITE,
ENERGY, CONCENTRATION, SUICIDAL THOUGHTS. AND WHEN YOU HAVE
THOSE THINGS TOGETHER YOU HAVE WHAT WE CALL A CLINICAL
DEPRESSION. _LET ME INTERRUPT YOU AND LET'S TALK ABOUT
SEROTONIN NOREPINEPHRINE, AND THEN THERE'S DOPAMINE ALSO,
ABOUT THEM BEING CHEMICALS THAT ARE INVOLVED. _RIGHT, THEY'RE
NEUROTRANSMITTERS SO THE BRAIN CELLS TALK TO EACH OTHER BY
HAVING AN ELECTRICAL IMPULSE COME DOWN THE CELL AND THEN IT
SENDS A LITTLE CHEMICAL MESSENGER TO THE NEXT ONE AND
THOSE CHEMICAL MESSENGERS ARE WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. AND
THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM AND WE DON'T KNOW WHEN WE THINK WE KNOW
A FAIR AMOUNT ABOUT SEROTONIN AND NOREPINEPHRINE. NOW DOPAMINE
IS THE ONE THAT'S INVOLVED IN THE FRONTAL LOBES WITH ADD,
THAT'S A DIFFERENT NEUROTRANSMITTER. BUT WHAT WE DO
WITH THE ANTIDEPRESSANTS IS THE SEROTONIN IT'S ACTUALLY THE
RECEPTOR FOR SEROTONIN ISSUE. IT SORT OF DOWN REGULATES AND TURNS
OFF SO IT DOESN'T TRANSMIT PROPERLY. SO WE FLOOD THAT
LITTLE AREA WHERE THE NEUROTRANSMITTER IS WITH
SEROTONIN AND IT HELPS THE RECEPTORS TO TURN BACK ON. NOW
ONCE THE SEROTONIN IS RELEASED THE BODY REPACKAGES IT TO USE
AGAIN SO WE'VE BLOCKED THAT RE-UPTAKE PROCESS. AND BASICALLY
HOW THE ANTIDEPRESSANTS FUNCTION IS RE-UPTAKE INHIBITORS.
>WE ALWAYS APPRECIATE YOUR JOINING US ON TIME FOR HOPE.
WE'RE TALKING WITH DR. RICHARD WINTER ABOUT HIS BOOK WHEN LIFE
GOES DARK.
>SO WE WERE TALKING MEDS WHEN WE WENT OFF ON BREAK AND YOU WANTED
AND I AGREE TO PICK UP WITH THAT AT THIS POINT BECAUSE FIRST OF
ALL IT'S BEEN DEBATABLE, IT'S BEEN A CONTROVERSY AMONG
CHRISTIANS. THE WHOLE THING ABOUT DEPRESSION HAS BEEN AN
ISSUE IN THE CHRISTIAN WORLD. IT ISN'T I DON'T THINK TODAY NEARLY
TO THE POINT THAT IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST. IN THE PAST AT ONE
TIME IT WAS BELIEVED TO BE IF YOU WERE DEPRESSED THAT YOU WERE
OUT OF GOD'S WILL OR LIKE JOB YOU HAD COMMITTED SOME GREAT SIN
YOU WEREN'T SHARING WITH ANYBODY OR YOU KNOW SOMETHING ALONG THAT
LINE. BUT THEN YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THAT SOME OF THE GREATEST
SAINTS HAD GREAT TERRIBLE PERIODS OF DEPRESSION. MARTIN
LUTHER WOULD STAY TUCKED AWAY IN A DARK ROOM FOR TWO WEEKS AT THE
TIME BEING SO DEPRESSED HE COULDN'T COME OUT AND FACE THE
WORLD. IN FACT DO YOU KNOW THE STORY ABOUT HIS WIFE DRESSING IN
THE DARK CLOTHES, THE BLACK CLOTHES AND GOING INTO HIS ROOM?
>NO I DON'T KNOW THAT ONE.
>WHILE HE WAS DOING THIS AND IT JARRED HIM AND THAT'S WHAT SHE
HAD IN MIND AND HE SAID WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU DOING DRESSED
LIKE THAT? SHE SAYS WELL YOU'RE ACTING LIKE GOD IS DEAD AND I
THOUGHT I WOULD DRESS THE PART.
>(LAUGHTER) NO I HADN'T HEARD THAT ONE.
>BUT A GREAT MAN LIKE MARTIN LUTHER, DEPRESSION CAN PUT THEM
DOWN. THERE'S NO ONE EXEMPT IF IT GETS SEVERE ENOUGH, DO YOU
AGREE WITH ME ON THIS?
>YES THAT'S TRUE,
AND ITS INTERESTING TOO AS YOU LOOK BACK IN THE WRITINGS OF THE
PURITANS AND THE REFORMERS, MANY OF THEM WROTE ABOUT THIS TYPE OF
DEPRESSION. IT WAS A DIFFERENT QUALITY FROM THE NORMAL UPS AND
DOWNS OF LIFE. YOU KNOW WHEN PEOPLE FEEL THAT GOD IS FAR AWAY
AND THEIR PRAYERS AREN'T ANSWERED THE BIBLE SEEMS
MEANINGLESS. EVERYTHING SEEMS, THEY DON'T TAKE JOY IN ANYTHING
IN LIFE ANYMORE. THEY OFTEN CAN'T EAT, THEY CAN'T SLEEP,
THEY'RE VERY ANXIOUS AND FEARFUL AND FEEL THAT THEY ARE ATTACKED
BY THE DEVIL. THAT'S A QUALITY OF DEPRESSION THAT THEY
RECOGNIZED EVEN THEN PROBABLY HAD SOME BIOLOGICAL CAUSE JUST
AS WE TODAY BELIEVE IT'S A MIXTURE OF CAUSES OF
PSYCHOLOGICAL AND BIOLOGICAL AND SPIRITUAL AND SOCIAL. THERE ARE
MANY REASONS AND SO WE HAVE TO ADDRESS EACH OF THE CAUSES WHEN
YOU ARE TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE WITH THIS SORT OF LEVEL OF
DEPRESSION. YOU HAVE TO TRY AND ASSESS WHAT ASPECT OF IT IS THE
MOST SIGNIFICANT FOR THEM AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. NOW
LUTHER, GOING BACK TO HIM, HE WAS A PRETTY PERFECTIONIST
RATHER OBSESSIVE INDIVIDUAL AND I'M GLAD HE WAS IN SOME WAYS
BECAUSE HE WROTE A HUGE AMOUNT TO OUR BENEFIT. BUT I THINK THAT
WAS ALSO SOME OF HIS UNDOING THAT HE EXPECTED A LOT OF
HIMSELF AND OFTEN LIVED MORE UNDER LAW ESPECIALLY BEFORE HE
WAS A CHRISTIAN THAN UNDER GRACE AND SOME OF THOSE OLD HABITS,
HIS PERFECTIONIST HABITS, MAYBE LINGERED ON AFTER HE WAS A
BELIEVER.
>YES YOU'VE WRITTEN A BOOK ON PERFECTION. REMEMBER YOU DID IT
ON MY SHOW WHEN YOU WERE HERE THAT WE CAN PERFECT OURSELVES TO
DEATH. I CLASSIFY MYSELF AS A RECOVERING PERFECTIONIST BECAUSE
I'VE BEEN RECOVERING FOR A LONG TIME BECAUSE IT'S EASY TO SLIP
BACK INTO IT. BUT GOING NOW WHEN I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
THESE PEOPLE, I BELIEVE THOMAS BOSTON WAS ANOTHER ONE. AND
THERE WAS ANOTHER ONE AND I CAN'T REMEMBER HIS NAME THAT
ACTUALLY WENT OUT TO COMMIT SUICIDE, HE WAS I BELIEVE A HYMN
WRITER, AND THE CARRIAGE, HE WAS GOING TO JUMP OFF A BRIDGE WHICH
YOU BRING OUT IN YOUR BOOK THAT'S ONE OF THE, AND HAVING
EXPERIENCE WITH PEOPLE THAT WERE SUICIDAL MYSELF THEY DO LOOK FOR
BRIDGES VERY OFTEN TO JUMP FROM. BUT THE FOG SET IN AND THE
CARRIAGE DRIVER COULDN'T FIND THE BRIDGE AND HE BROUGHT HIM
BACK WHERE THEY STARTED AND THE LORD USED THAT TO I GUESS SHAKE
HIM BACK INTO REALITY.
>WELL SOME OF THESE PEOPLE I THINK WERE PROFOUNDLY DEPRESSED
FOR A LONG TIME. OTHERS MAYBE WENT THROUGH PERIODS AND
CERTAINLY IN MY OWN DARK PLACES THERE WERE TIMES WHEN I THOUGHT
OF, IT WOULD BE NICE TO END IT ALL, I DON'T LIKE THIS PAIN. BUT
I KNEW THAT I COULDN'T DO THAT BECAUSE OF MY WIFE AND MY
FAMILY. AND I THINK OF PEOPLE LIKE ELIJAH AND JONAH AND JOB
AND MOSES THEY EACH GOT TO A PLACE OF CRISIS IN THEIR LIVES
ALL FOR COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASONS AND I EXPLORE THIS IN
THE BOOK, EACH FOR COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASONS WHERE THEY
SAID LORD I'VE HAD ENOUGH, I WANT TO DIE. YOU KNOW AND I
DON'T THINK THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE CLINICALLY DEPRESSED BUT
THEY GOT SO DOWN AND SO BURNED OUT THAT THERE WERE MOMENTS WHEN
THEY FELT I JUST CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE. AND WE GO THROUGH THOSE
MOMENTS AND SOME PEOPLE UNFORTUNATELY IMPULSIVELY MAY
TRY TO TAKE OVER OR JUMP OFF A BRIDGE DURING THOSE TIMES DURING
THOSE TIMES.
>I'VE HAD MANY THAT STARTED TO DO IT BUT THEY COULD HEAR ME, I
WOULD PROGRAM THEM AND THEY COULD HEAR ME COMING THROUGH
SAYING YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THIS, YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THIS
CALL SO-AND-SO OR CALL ME OR WHATEVER. BUT LET'S GET BACK,
WHEN WE'RE TALKING OF ALL THESE PEOPLE THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH
THIS WITHOUT THE MEDS THAT WE HAVE TODAY THAT CAN BE EFFECTIVE
AS YOU BROUGHT OUT OFF CAMERA THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS EFFECTIVE.
BUT WE DO KNOW THAT MEDICATION AND COUNSELING TOGETHER ARE MORE
EFFECTIVE. MEDS BY THEMSELVES AS A GENERAL RULE ARE NOT EFFECTIVE
UNLESS THEY'RE ALSO GETTING APPROPRIATE AND VERY ADEQUATE
COUNSELING.
>THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND I THINK ESSENTIALLY THERE ARE MANY
PASTORS I THINK WHO DON'T ENCOURAGE PEOPLE SOON ENOUGH TO
GET ON MEDICATION WHEN THEY'RE DEPRESSED. AND THERE ARE MANY
DOCTORS AND MENTAL HEALTH WORKERS WHO PROBABLY ENCOURAGE
THEM TOO QUICKLY TO GET ONTO MEDICATION.
>AND JUST HAND THEM THE MEDS AND DON'T TELL THEM TO GO GET
COUNSELING.
>AND THEN THE COMMERCIALS ON TELEVISION TEND TO FOSTER THAT
ATTITUDE AND OF COURSE THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES ARE
FUNDING THE RESEARCH ON DEPRESSION VERY OFTEN AND THEY
TEND TO WANT PEOPLE TO USE THEIR ANTIDEPRESSANTS. AND SO THERE'S
BEEN A LOT OF DEBATE IN RECENT YEARS ABOUT THE EFFECTIVENESS SO
THEY'VE COMPARED ANTIDEPRESSANTS WITH PLACEBO WITH INERT PILLS.
>BOY THAT WAS TREMENDOUS IN YOUR BOOK.
>AND THEY FOUND THAT THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT ANTIDEPRESSANTS
CERTAINLY WORK WITH PEOPLE WITH SERIOUS DEPRESSION BUT IT'S
DEBATABLE WHETHER THEY ARE BETTER THAN PLACEBO IN MILDER TO
MODERATE DEPRESSION.
>IF A PERSON BELIEVES THAT IT'S HELPING THAT'S WHERE THE BRAIN.
>AND THERE MAY BE VALUE IN THAT YOU KNOW.
>YES THERE MAY BE VALUE IN THAT. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO AWAY
FOR THE WEEK, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO OFF FOR A WEEK AND
LEAVE THEM HANGING WITH THIS BUT I DON'T KNOW OF A BETTER WAY
ACTUALLY THAN YOU BRINGING UP THE PLACEBO EFFECT AND THAT GOES
INTO THE BRAIN MECHANISMS ARE NOT AT WORK BOTH WAYS IN
DEPRESSION. WE'LL JUST KIND OF THROW THAT OUT AND ASK THEM TO
MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE WITH US AGAIN NEXT WEEK AS WE TRY TO
PICK UP RIGHT EXACTLY WHERE WE'RE LEAVING OFF TODAY. WE
DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THEM HANGING AND WE ALSO WANT TO GO OUT
RICHARD SAYING THAT HOWEVER SEVERE DEPRESSION IS THERE'S
HOPE. ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT FOR ALL OF THEIR LIFE.
>AND THERE ARE MANY WAYS OF GETTING HELP WITH DEPRESSION.
>MANY WAYS OF GETTING HELP AND OUR HEAVENLY FATHER WHO CREATED
US KNOWS US AND IS ALWAYS THERE. HE NEVER LEAVES US, NEVER
ABANDONS US AND ESPECIALLY IS NOT GOING TO ABANDON US AND HE
WOULD NOT DISCIPLINE US. HE WILL ALLOW IT BUT HE WOULD NOT
DISCIPLINE US LIKE THAT WITHOUT HAVING SOME TREMENDOUS PURPOSES
IN MIND FOR US.
>HE USES THOSE THINGS FOR GOOD.
>HE USES THOSE THINGS FOR GOOD SO AS WE STARTED OUT AND HOSEA
SAYS, WE STARTED OUT WITH THE WHOLE IDEA THAT THIS PAIN CAN BE
A DOOR TO HOPE.
>A DOOR OF HOPE.
>A DOOR OF HOPE AND THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO LEAVE OUR VIEWERS
WITH AS I ENCOURAGE THEM TO PICK UP WITH US AGAIN NEXT WEEK AND
WE'RE GOING TO BE CONTINUING OUR DISCUSSION ON DR. WINTER'S BOOK
WHEN LIFE GOES DARK. BUT I WANT TO SHARE SOMETHING FROM A
VIEWER, DON'T GO AWAY.
>
>
>AND WE HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT. WE KNOW THAT OUR HEAVENLY FATHER
PROMISES THAT HE HEARS US WHEN WE PRAY AND THEN I HAVE AN
ENCOURAGING NOTE.
>
>
>AND SO WE APPRECIATE THE PRAYER REQUESTS AND I ALSO APPRECIATE
THE NOTES OF ENCOURAGEMENT THAT YOU SEND IN TO US. AND WHEN THE
LORD LEADS YOU TO HELP US FINANCIALLY WE GREATLY
APPRECIATE THAT ALSO. .
>TO ORDER OUR RESOURCES, FOLLOW THE CONTACT INFORMATION ON YOUR SCREEN.
UNTIL NEXT TIME, HAVE A GREAT WEEK, AND REMEMBER, IT IS
TIME FOR HOPE. . .