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>> THERE ARE LITERALLY TWO
AMERICAS.
>> MARTIN LUTHER KING AND THE
DREAM OF A FAIR AND JUST
AMERICA.
>> FREEDOM FROM FEAR IS A
NECESSARY FREEDOM TO GET THE
CIVIL RIGHTS, TO GET THE JOBS,
TO GET WORK AGAINST POVERTY EVEN
THOUGH THE ODDS MAY BE AGAINST
YOU.
>> IF YOU CAN DEAL WITH RACE AND
THE FUNDAMENTAL DENIAL OF COMMON
HUMANITY THROUGH RACE, THEN IT
OPENS UP POSSIBILITIES.
>> AND --
>> THE IDEA OF A MORE PERFECT
UNION.
I LOVE THAT BECAUSE IT SUGGESTS,
RIGHTFULLY SO, THAT IT'S NOT
PERFECT NOW.
>> Announcer: FUNDING IS
PROVIDED BY --
CARNEGIE CORPORATION OF NEW
YORK, CELEBRATING 100 YEARS OF
PHILANTHROPY, AND COMMITTED TO
DOING REAL AND PERMANENT GOOD IN
THE WORLD.
THE KOHLBERG FOUNDATION.
INDEPENDENT PRODUCTION FUND,
WITH SUPPORT FROM THE PARTRIDGE
FOUNDATION, A JOHN AND
POLLY GUTH CHARITABLE FUND.
THE CLEMENTS FOUNDATION.
PARK FOUNDATION, DEDICATED TO
HEIGHTENING PUBLIC AWARENESS OF
CRITICAL ISSUES.
THE HERB ALPERT FOUNDATION,
SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS WHOSE
MISSION IS TO PROMOTE COMPASSION
AND CREATIVITY IN OUR SOCIETY.
THE BERNARD AND AUDRE RAPOPORT
FOUNDATION.
THE JOHN D. AND
CATHERINE T. MACARTHUR
FOUNDATION, COMMITTED TO
BUILDING A MORE JUST, VERDANT,
AND PEACEFUL WORLD.
MORE INFORMATION AT
MACFOUND.ORG."
ANNE GUMOWITZ.
THE BETSY AND JESSE FINK
FOUNDATION.
THE HKH FOUNDATION.
BARBARA G. FLEISCHMAN.
AND BY OUR SOLE CORPORATE
SPONSOR, MUTUAL OF AMERICA,
DESIGNING CUSTOMIZED INDIVIDUAL
AND GROUP RETIREMENT PRODUCTS.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE YOUR RETIREMENT
COMPANY.
>>> WELCOME.
YOU MAY THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR., BUT
THERE IS MUCH ABOUT THE MAN AND
HIS MESSAGE WE HAVE CONVENIENTLY
FORGOTTEN.
HE WAS A PROPHET, LIKE AMOS,
ISAIAH AND JEREMIAH OF OLD,
CALLING KINGS AND PLUTOCRATS TO
ACCOUNT, SPEAKING TRUTH TO
POWER.
YET, HE WAS ONLY 39 WHEN HE WAS
MURDERED IN MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE
ON APRIL 4TH, 1968.
THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON IN
'63 AND THE MARCH FROM SELMA TO
MONTGOMERY IN '65 WERE BEHIND
HIM.
SO WERE THE PASSAGE OF THE CIVIL
RIGHTS ACT AND THE VOTING RIGHTS
ACT.
IN THE LAST YEAR OF HIS LIFE, AS
HE MOVED TOWARD MEMPHIS AND
FATE, HE ANNOUNCED WHAT HE
CALLED THE POOR PEOPLE'S
CAMPAIGN, A "MULTI-RACIAL ARMY"
THAT WOULD COME TO WASHINGTON,
BUILD AN ENCAMPMENT AND DEMAND
FROM CONGRESS AN "ECONOMIC BILL
OF RIGHTS" FOR ALL AMERICANS,
BLACK, WHITE, OR BROWN.
HE HAD LONG KNOWN THAT THE FIGHT
FOR RACIAL EQUALITY COULD NOT BE
SEPARATED FROM THE NEED OR
ECONOMIC EQUITY, FAIRNESS FOR
ALL, INCLUDING WORKING PEOPLE
AND THE POOR.
THAT'S WHY HE WAS IN MEMPHIS,
MARCHING WITH SANITATION WORKERS
ON STRIKE FOR A LIVING WAGE WHEN
HE WAS KILLED.
WITH ME ARE TWO PEOPLE STEEPED
IN KING'S LIFE AND WORK. TAYLOR
BRANCH WROTE THE EXTRAORDINARY,
THREE-VOLUME HISTORY OF THE
CIVIL RIGHTS ERA, "AMERICA IN
THE KING YEARS."
THE FIRST OF THEM, "PARTING THE
WATERS", RECEIVED THE PULITZER
PRIZE.
HE NOW HAS DISTILLED ALL THAT
WORK, ADDING FRESH MATERIAL AND
INSIGHTS TO CREATE THIS NEW
BOOK, "THE KING YEARS: HISTORIC
MOMENTS IN THE CIVIL RIGHT
MOVEMENT."
JAMES CONE, A LONGTIME PROFESSOR
OF THEOLOGY AT NEW YORK'S UNION
THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, WROTE THE
GROUND-BREAKING BOOKS THAT
DEFINED BLACK LIBERATION
THEOLOGY, INTERPRETING
CHRISTIANITY THROUGH THE EYES
AND EXPERIENCE OF THE OPPRESSED.
AMONG THEM: "BLACK THEOLOGY AND
BLACK POWER", "MARTIN AND
MALCOLM AND AMERICA", AND THIS
MOST RECENT BESTSELLER, "THE
CROSS AND THE LYNCHING TREE."
BEFORE WE TALK, LET'S LISTEN TO
THESE WORDS FROM
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR., SPOKEN
AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY JUST A
YEAR BEFORE HIS ASSASSINATION.
IT'S AS IF HE WERE SAYING THEM
TODAY.
>> THERE ARE LITERALLY TWO
AMERICAS.
ONE AMERICA IS BEAUTIFUL FOR
SITUATION.
AND IN A SENSE THIS AMERICA IS
OVERFLOWING WITH THE MILK OF
PROSPERITY AND THE HONEY OF
OPPORTUNITY.
THIS AMERICA IS THE HABITAT OF
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOOD
AND MATERIAL NECESSITIES FOR
THEIR BODIES, AND CULTURE AND
EDUCATION FOR THEIR MINDS, AND
FREEDOM AND HUMAN DIGNITY FOR
THEIR SPIRITS.
BUT TRAGICALLY AND
UNFORTUNATELY, THERE IS ANOTHER
AMERICA.
THIS OTHER AMERICA HAS A DAILY
UGLINESS ABOUT IT THAT
CONSTANTLY TRANSFORMS THE
BUOYANCY OF HOPE INTO THE
FATIGUE OF DESPAIR.
IN THIS AMERICA MILLIONS OF
WORK-STARVED MEN WALK THE
STREETS DAILY IN SEARCH FOR JOBS
THAT DO NOT EXIST.
IN THIS AMERICA MILLIONS OF
PEOPLE FIND THEMSELVES LIVING IN
RAT-INFESTED, VERMIN-FILLED
SLUMS.
IN THIS AMERICA PEOPLE ARE POOR
BY THE MILLIONS.
THEY FIND THEMSELVES PERISHING
ON A LONELY ISLAND OF POVERTY IN
THE MIDST OF A VAST OCEAN OF
MATERIAL PROSPERITY.
>>> WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.
AS HE WAS TRYING TO CONVERGE
ECONOMICS, RACE, SOCIAL AND
POLITICAL EQUALITY, WHAT WAS HE
STRUGGLING FOR AT THAT TIME WHEN
HE, ALONE AMONG HIS COLLEAGUES,
WANTED TO TAKE ON THE TOUGH
STRUCTURE OF PREJUDICE IN
ECONOMICS IN THE NORTH?
>> I THINK HE WAS THINKING ABOUT
CLASS ISSUES.
HE TALKED ABOUT CLASS ISSUES TO
HIS STAFF.
HE DIDN'T DO IT PRIMARILY IN
SPEECHES BECAUSE OF THE KIND OF
ANTICOMMUNISM SPIRIT THAT WAS SO
DEEP IN AMERICA AT THAT TIME.
BUT ON MANY OCCASIONS, HE TALKED
ABOUT THE ECONOMIC AND ABOUT
AMERICA HAVING 40 MILLION PEOPLE
WHO ARE IN POVERTY IN THE
RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT
RESTRUCTURING EVERYTHING.
AND IF YOU TALK ABOUT
RESTRUCTURING, YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT CLASS TOO.
>> YES.
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT SOME
OF THIS CLASS TENSION WAS ALSO
WITHIN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.
SOME OF KING'S MOST STINGING
SPEECHES WERE TO THE MEMBERS OF
HIS OWN, LIKE ALPHA PHI ALPHA
FRATERNITY, SAYING, "YOU SPEND
MORE MONEY ON LIQUOR AT YOUR
ANNUAL CONVENTION THAN YOU
CONTRIBUTE TO THE NAACP."
"THIS IS -- WE'RE MORE CONCERNED
ABOUT, I KNOW MINISTERS WHO ARE
MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE WHEEL
BASE ON THEIR CADILLAC THAN THEY
ARE THE SPIRITUAL BASE OF THEIR
COMMITMENT TO THIS WORLD."
SO, KING DREW AN AWFUL LOT OF
SUSTENANCE AND BITING CHALLENGE
FROM THE BASIC NOTION OF -- I
THINK THAT HIS FAVORITE PARABLE
WAS THE PARABLE OF LAZARUS AND
DIVES IN LUKE ABOUT --
>> WHICH WAS?
>> IT WAS ABOUT THE RICH MAN WHO
PASSED LAZARUS BEGGING AT HIS
DOOR AND DIDN'T NOTICE HIM AND
WENT TO HELL AND SAW LAZARUS UP
IN HEAVEN.
AND KING INTERPRETED THIS THING
AS SAYING THE RICH MAN DID NOT
GO TO HELL BECAUSE HE WAS RICH.
HE WENT THERE BECAUSE HE DIDN'T
NOTICE THE HUMANITY OF THE MAN
HE WAS PASSING AT HIS GATE.
AND IT WAS ABOUT HUMANITY.
REMEMBER HOW THE SANITATION
STRIKE STARTED, IT STARTED
BECAUSE TWO MEMBERS OF THE
SANITATION FORCE WERE CRUSHED IN
THE BACK OF A GARBAGE TRUCK THAT
WAS A CYLINDER, ONE OF THOSE
COMPACTING CYLINDERS, IN A
TORRENTIAL RAINSTORM AND THEY
WERE NOT ALLOWED BY THE CITY TO
SEEK SHELTER IN STORMS.
BECAUSE THE WHITE RESIDENTS
DIDN'T LIKE IT IF BLACK GARBAGE
MEN STOPPED.
ALL THE GARBAGE WORKERS WERE
BLACK.
AND, SO, THEY WEREN'T ALLOWED --
THE ONLY PLACE THEY COULD GET
SHELTER IN -- THEY WOULDN'T ALL
FIT IN THE CABIN.
SO, THE ONES THAT COULD FIT IN
THE CABIN AND TWO OF THEM HAD TO
CLIMB IN THE BACK WITH THE
GARBAGE AND A BROOM FELL ON THE
LEVER AND IT COMPACTED THEM WITH
THE GARBAGE.
AND THAT IS THE ORIGIN OF THE
SLOGAN, "I AM A MAN. I AM A MAN,
NOT A PIECE OF GARBAGE."
AND THAT CONNECTS TO KING'S
PHILOSOPHY.
>> AND THE SANITATION WORKERS
CARRIED THOSE SIGNS, REMEMBER?
"I AM A MAN."
>> "I AM A MAN."
AND TO THEM, THAT WAS ABOUT
ECHOL COLE AND ROBERT WALKER,
THEIR TWO FRIENDS WHO HAD BEEN
LITERALLY CRUSHED WITH THE
GARBAGE AND NOBODY NOTICED.
AND KING IS SAYING, "YOU'RE
GOING TO GO TO HELL AS A NATION
IF YOU DON'T NOTICE THE HUMANITY
OF ECHOL COLE AND ROBERT WALKER.
>> AND THAT'S WHY JUSTICE IS SO
CENTRAL FOR KING AND WHY POVERTY
BECAME THE FOCUS OF HIS MINISTRY
AFTER THAT CIVIL RIGHTS AND
VOTING RIGHTS.
BECAUSE THE CIVIL RIGHTS AND
VOTING RIGHTS IS NOT GOING TO
GET RID OF POVERTY. AND, SO,
KING SAW THAT AS CENTRAL.
>> LET'S LISTEN AGAIN TO
DR. KING, FROM THE SPEECH HE
MADE TO THOSE STRIKING
SANITATION WORKERS IN MEMPHIS
JUST WEEKS BEFORE HE WAS SHOT TO
DEATH.
WHAT HE SAID ABOUT POVERTY STILL
RINGS TRUE.
>> DO YOU KNOW THAT MOST OF THE
POOR PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY ARE
WORKING EVERY DAY?
THEY ARE MAKING WAGES SO LOW
THAT THEY CANNOT BEGIN TO
FUNCTION IN THE MAINSTREAM OF
THE ECONOMIC LIFE OF OUR NATION.
THESE ARE FACTS WHICH MUST BE
SEEN.
AND IT IS CRIMINAL TO HAVE
PEOPLE WORKING ON A FULL-TIME
BASIS AND A FULL-TIME JOB
GETTING PART-TIME INzOME.,9
>> COULD ANYTHING BE MORE
CURRENT RIGHT NOW?
>> NO.
IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE, AND OF
COURSE, IT'S CHILLING TO THINK
WHAT THE DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH
WAS WHEN HE MADE THAT INDICTMENT
COMPARED TO WHAT IT IS NOW.
IT IS MUCH MORE SKEWED NOW THAN
IT WAS THEN AND IT WAS BAD THEN.
SO, YOU REALLY GET A SENSE OF
KING'S POWER.
I WOULD ONLY CAUTION THAT WE NOT
ASSUME THAT HE UNDERTOOK THESE
ISSUES OF POVERTY ONLY LATE IN
HIS CAREER.
IT WAS PART OF HIS MESSAGE ALL
ALONG.
CERTAINLY, IF YOU LOOK AT NOBEL÷
PRIZE LECTURE IN 1964, HE SAYS,
WE ARE -- THE WORLD IS SEEING
THE WIDEST LIBERATION IN HUMAN
HISTORY, NOT JUST IN THE UNITED
STATES BUT AROUND THE WORLD.
AND WE CANNOT LOSE THIS
OPPORTUNITY TO APPLY ITS
NONVIOLENT POWER TO THE TRIPLE
SCOURGE OF RACE, WAR, AND
POVERTY, WHAT HE CALLED VIOLENCE
OF THE FLESH AND VIOLENCE OF THE
SPIRIT.
THIS WAS A VERY, VERY BROAD
VISION EARLY ON.
IT'S ONLY AT THE END OF HIS
CAREER THAT HE'S MAKING WITNESS
ON THAT BECAUSE HE SEES HIS TIME
LIMITED AND HE WANTS TO LEAVE
THAT WITNESS.
HE MADE A WONDERFUL QUOTE WHEN
HE WAS ARGUING WITH HIS STAFF
ABOUT DOING THE POOR PEOPLE'S
CAMPAIGN AND MOST OF THEM DIDN'T
WANT TO DO IT.
HE QUOTED SOMETHING SAYING, ‘AT
TIMES, YOU MUST FINISH WITH WHAT
YOU HAVE, EVEN IF IT'S ONLY A
LITTLE.'
>> YOU REMIND THAT THE FAMOUS
MARCH ON WASHINGTON FIVE YEARS
EARLIER IN 1963 WASN'T CALLED
THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON.
IT WAS A MARCH FOR JOBS --
>> JOBS AND FREEDOM.
>> -- AND FREEDOM.
WHICH GOES BACK TO HIS EARLY
CONCERN, AS YOU SAY.
>> ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, KING GREW
UP, HE WAS A CHILD DURING THE
DEPRESSION AND HE SAW RELIEF
LINES, EVEN AS A YOUNG MAN, AND
HE WAS DISTURBED ABOUT THAT.
HE CAME FROM A MIDDLE-CLASS
FAMILY, BUT HE WAS DISTURBED
ABOUT IT THEN.
AND EVEN WHEN HE GOT READY TO GO
THE CROZER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY
OUT OF MOREHOUSE, WHEN THEY
ASKED HIM WHY HE WANTED TO GO
INTO MINISTRY, HE CONNECTED IT
WITH HELPING PEOPLE, HELPING
THEM DEAL WITH HURT AND PAIN.
SO, IT'S NOT NEW FOR KING.
KING HAS ALWAYS BEEN CONCERNED
ABOUT THAT.
I THINK IT BECOMES SHARP FOR HIM
AT THE END BECAUSE HE'S
ACCOMPLISHED CIVIL RIGHTS, AND
THE VOTING RIGHTS, AND NOW HE
SEES THAT IT'S STILL, HE SEES
THE CITIES BURNING.
>> RIGHT.
>> AND HE WANTS TO PROVIDE AN
ALTERNATIVE TO RIOTS.
>> I WANT TO PLAY YOU AN EXCERPT
OF THE SPEECH HE DELIVERED, ONE
YEAR TO THE DAY BEFORE HE WAS
KILLED, AT RIVERSIDE CHURCH HERE
IN NEW YORK CITY.
>> I AM CONVINCED THAT IF WE ARE
TO GET ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE
WORLD REVOLUTION, WE AS A NATION
MUST UNDERGO A RADICAL
REVOLUTION OF VALUES.2E:v
WE MUST RAPIDLY BEGIN TO SHIFT
FROM A THING-ORIENTED SOCIETY TO
A PERSON-ORIENTED SOCIETY.
WHEN MACHINES AND COMPUTERS,
PROFIT MOTIVES, AND PROPERTY
RIGHTS ARE CONSIDERED MORE
IMPORTANT THAN PEOPLE, THE GIANT
TRIPLETS OF RACISM, EXTREME
MATERIALISM, AND MILITARISM ARE
INCAPABLE OF BEING CONQUERED.
>>> A RADICAL REVOLUTION OF
VALUES.
>> THE REVOLUTION IN VALUES IS
TO SEE PEOPLE FIRST, TO SEE
LAZARUS AT THE GATE AND NOT PASS
THEM BY.
SO, I THINK THE REVOLUTION IN
VALUES IS CHRISTIAN AND IT'S
DEMOCRATIC, BUT IT STARTS WITH
PEOPLE.
THEY HAVE EQUAL SOULS AND EQUAL
VOTES AND WE ARE VERY STUBBORN,
HUMAN NATURE, ABOUT DENYING THAT
AND WANTING TO SEE ANYTHING BUT.
>> WAS IT THEOLOGICAL?
>> OH, YES.
BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE CREATED IN
THE IMAGE OF GOD.
IF YOU'RE CREATED IN THE IMAGE
OF GOD, YOU CAN'T TREAT PEOPLE
LIKE THINGS.
IF WE ARE INTERCONNECTED WITH
EACH OTHER, WE CAN'T TREAT EACH
OTHER LIKE THINGS. IF AMERICA IS
CONCERNED WITH LIFE, LIBERTY,
AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS,
YOU CAN'T HAVE LIFE, LIBERTY,
AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS IF
YOU'RE TREATING OTHERS AS
THINGS.
>> SO, WHAT WAS THE TURNING
POINT THAT MOVED HIM FROM AN
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT TO AN ACTUAL
AGENDA OF TRYING TO ACHIEVE IT?
>> WELL, I THINK PART OF IT IS A
NATURAL PROGRESSION.
IF YOU ARE TOTALLY INVISIBLE,
YOU'RE NOT EVEN UP TO THE LEVEL
OF A THING YET. THE BUS BOYCOTT,
THE SIT-INS, THE FREEDOM RIDES,
GETTING THE RIGHT TO VOTE, IF
YOU'RE NOT A CITIZEN, YOU'RE NOT
EVEN UP TO THE TABLE WHERE YOU
CAN START DEALING WITH THESE
ISSUES.
TO ME, MARTIN LUTHER KING SAW
RACE AS THE GATEWAY.
IF YOU CAN DEAL WITH RACE AND
THE FUNDAMENTAL DENIAL OF COMMON
HUMANITY THROUGH RACE, THEN IT
OPENS UP POSSIBILITIES WHICH I
THINK HAPPENED IN HISTORY.
AND FINALLY, TOWARD THE END OF
HIS CAREER, HE SAID, WE HAVE AN
OPPORTUNITY.
NOW THAT WE ARE LEARNING, AT
LEAST THE BEGINNINGS OF TREATING
EACH OTHER AS EQUAL CITIZENS TO
REALLY TACKLE WHAT HE CALLED THE
ETERNAL SCOURGE OF RACISM,
POVERTY, AND WAR.
>> HIS FIGHT AGAINST POVERTY WAS
MULTIRACIAL.
HE WASN'T JUST FOCUSED WITH
BLACK PEOPLE.
WELL, YOU CAN'T GET THAT
MULTIRACIAL FIGHT AGAINST
POVERTY UNLESS FIRST BLACK
PEOPLE ARE REGARDED AS PERSONS.
SO, CIVIL RIGHTS, THAT EARLIER
PART, IS, AS TAYLOR WAS SAYING,
BLACK PEOPLE COMING TO THE
TABLE.
SO, AFTER THEY GET TO THE TABLE,
IF YOU'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH
POVERTY, IT SPREADS ACROSS
RACES.
SO, KING WAS CONCERNED ABOUT A
MULTIRACIAL MOVEMENT AGAINST
POVERTY BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE
POOR PEOPLE'S CAMPAIGN WAS
ABOUT.
>> SO, THAT WOULD HELP US
UNDERSTAND THE COLORBLINDNESS OF
THAT ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL BILL OF
RIGHTS THAT HE AND THE POOR
PEOPLE'S CAMPAIGN DEVELOPED IN
THE FIRST, EARLY PART OF 1968.
"THE RIGHT OF EVERY EMPLOYABLE
CITIZEN TO A DECENT JOB, THE
RIGHT OF EVERY CITIZEN TO A
MINIMUM INCOME, THE RIGHT OF A
DECENT HOUSE AND THE FREE CHOICE
OF NEIGHBORHOOD, THE RIGHT TO AN
ADEQUATE EDUCATION, THE RIGHT TO
PARTICIPATE IN A DECISION-MAKING
PROCESS, THE RIGHT TO THE FULL
BENEFITS OF MODERN SCIENCE IN
HEALTH CARE."
QUITE A STATEMENT.
>> AND HE HAD A WORKSHOP, ONE OF
THE MORE REMARKABLE EVENTS THAT
NEVER MADE ANY NEWS AND IS NOT
PRESERVED IN HISTORY, IN WHICH
HE HAD REPRESENTATIVES OF INDIAN
TRIBES, APPALACHIAN WHITE COAL
MINERS --
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> -- LATINOS OF EVERY DIFFERENT
STRIPE.
HE HAD TO DO HURRY-UP EDUCATION
ON HOW TO TELL A CHICANO FROM
THE MEXICANS.
HIS RULE WAS IF THEY ARE POOR,
HAVE THEM HERE.
AND HALF HIS STAFF WAS REVOLTING
AGAINST THAT, SAYING, "WE ARE A
BLACK MOVEMENT."
>> WHY?
BECAUSE THEY FELT IT WOULD
DILUTE THE IMPACT OF --
>> IT WOULD DIMINISH THE
UNFINISHED AGENDA FOR BLACK
FOLKS.
IT WOULD DIMINISH THEIR
EXPERTISE.
HOSEA WILLIAMS, WHO WAS A LOVELY
RASCAL --
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
THAT'S RIGHT.
HE WAS STRONGLY AGAINST IT.
>> HE SAID, "YOU'RE TAKING MY
BUDGET AND GIVING IT AWAY TO
INDIANS AND MEXICANS. YOU CAN'T
DO THAT."
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
YEAH.
>> BUT HE HAD THIS INCREDIBLE
CONCLAVE THERE OF PEOPLE WHO
DIDN'T KNOW EACH OTHER. AND
EVERYTHING AND HE SAID, "IF WE
CAN'T AGREE TOGETHER THAT
THERE'S A POVERTY AND A COMMON
APPROACH THAT'S BIGGER THAN
RACE, THEN WE SHOULD STOP NOW."
BUT BY THE END OF THIS THING, HE
HAD THEM ALL TOGETHER AND THE
RIVAL INDIAN TRIBES WERE
SETTLING DIFFERENCES, AND THE
CHICANOS SAID, "OKAY, WELL,
WE'RE GOING TO LET THE INDIANS
GO FIRST BECAUSE THEY WERE HERE
FIRST," YOU KNOW AND DEFERRING.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
THAT'S RIGHT.
THAT'S RIGHT.
>> IT WAS A REMARKABLE EVENT.
>> HE WAS GROWING MORE IMPATIENT
IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS AND MORE
RADICAL.
LET'S LISTEN TO WHAT HE TOLD
THOSE WORKERS WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT IN MEMPHIS.
>> NEVER FORGET THAT FREEDOM IS
NOT SOMETHING THAT IS
VOLUNTARILY GIVEN BY THE
OPPRESSOR.
IT IS SOMETHING THAT MUST BE
DEMANDED BY THE OPPRESSED.
IF WE ARE GOING TO GET EQUALITY,
IF WE ARE GOING TO GET ADEQUATE
WAGES, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO
STRUGGLE FOR IT.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT?
YOU MAY HAVE TO ESCALATE THE
STRUGGLE A BIT.
IF THEY KEEP REFUSING AND THEY
WILL NOT RECOGNIZE THE UNION,
AND WILL NOT DECREE FURTHER
CHECK-OFF FOR THE COLLECTION OF
DUES, I'LL TELL YOU WHAT YOU
OUGHT TO DO, AND YOU'RE TOGETHER
HERE ENOUGH TO DO IT.
IN A FEW DAYS YOU OUGHT TO GET
TOGETHER AND JUST HAVE A GENERAL
WORK STOPPAGE IN THE CITY OF
MEMPHIS.
>>> THAT WAS A GENUINE CALL TO
THE BARRICADES.
>> YES, IT WAS.
AND BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT
WITHOUT THAT INNER FREEDOM THAT
HE'S TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS THE
FREEDOM THAT EMPOWERS YOU TO
STOP THE WORK.
IT IS THE FREEDOM INSIDE THAT
MAKES YOU DO THAT.
AND FOR KING, EVERYBODY HAS TO
CLAIM THAT FREEDOM.
IT'S NOT A GIFT.
FREEDOM IS SOMETHING THAT YOU
HAVE TO DEMAND FROM OTHERS, BUT
YOU CANNOT DEMAND IT FROM OTHERS
UNLESS YOU HAVE IT INTERNALLY
YOURSELF.
AND THAT'S A KIND OF INNER
FREEDOM.
>> IN WHAT SENSE WAS HE FREE?
>> WELL, KING WAS FREE BECAUSE
DEATH DID NOT STOP HIM.
THAT IS, THE FEAR OF DEATH DID
NOT KEEP HIM FROM DOING HIS
ACTIONS FOR FREEDOM. SEE, IF THE
FEAR CAN STOP YOU, THEN YOU ARE
NOT FREE.
SO, FREEDOM FROM FEAR WAS
CRUCIAL.
AND THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH, HAVING
GROWN UP THERE, I KNOW WHAT THAT
FEAR IS LIKE.
AND WHAT IS THE MOST AMAZING
THING FOR ME IS HOW KING COULD
INSPIRE ORDINARY BLACK PEOPLE BY
THE MASSES, LIKE IN MEMPHIS, TO
MARCH WHEN WHITE PEOPLE HAVE
INTIMIDATED THEM FOR CENTURIES.
WHAT KING TAUGHT WAS THAT INNER
FREEDOM THAT MAKES YOU CONFRONT
THE OPPRESSOR, EVEN IF IT MEANS
RISKING YOUR LIFE.
SO THE FREEDOM FROM FEAR IS THE
NECESSARY FREEDOM TO GET TO
CIVIL RIGHTS, TO GET THE JOBS,
TO GET WORK AGAINST POVERTY,
EVEN THOUGH THE ODDS MAY BE
AGAINST YOU. AND FOR BLACK
PEOPLE, THE ODDS WERE AGAINST
THEM.
>> BUT HERE'S THE UNFORTUNATE
THING.
AS YOU WRITE ABOUT IT, AFTER HIS
ASSASSINATION, RIOTS BROKE OUT
ACROSS MEMPHIS. AND EVEN THOUGH
HE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT, QUOTE,
"RIOT IS THE LANGUAGE OF THE
UNHEARD," DIDN'T THIS OUTBREAK
OF VIOLENCE IN SOME WAY BEGIN
THE END OF THE MOVEMENT?
>> THIS IS A VERY, VERY PROFOUND
AND DIFFICULT TOPIC AND I WOULD
HAVE TO SAY THAT IT HAD ALREADY
BEGUN BEFORE.
NONVIOLENCE WAS ALREADY NOT
POPULAR.
IT HAD ALREADY BECOME PASSÉ.
SOME OF THE MOST HOSTILE
LANGUAGE TOWARD NONVIOLENCE CAME
FROM THE LEFT, PEOPLE SAYING
THAT NONVIOLENCE IS KIND OF
SUNDAY SCHOOL AND OUTMODED NOW.
AND THAT WE WANT TO ADOPT THE
LANGUAGE OF VIOLENCE.
AND KING'S ANSWER TO THAT WAS,
"NONVIOLENCE IS A LEADERSHIP
DOCTRINE.
IF WE ABANDON NONVIOLENCE, IT'S
NOT THAT WE'RE STEPPING UP TO
DEMAND THE RIGHT TO BE JUST
VIOLENT, JUST LIKE FIRST-CLASS
WHITE PEOPLE.
WE'RE STEPPING BACK FROM A
LEADERSHIP DOCTRINE IN THE
UNITED STATES."
AND THAT'S WHAT AMERICA
INCLUDING ESPECIALLY WHITE
AMERICA, DOES NOT UNDERSTAND.
ONE OF THE FEW SPEECHES, BY THE
WAY, IN WHICH A WHITE LEADER
ACKNOWLEDGED THAT WAS JOHNSON.
BEFORE HE SAID, "WE SHALL
OVERCOME," HE SAID "SO IT WAS AT
APPOMATTOX, SO IT WAS AT
CONCORD, SO IT WAS AT SELMA LAST
WEEK, WHEN FATE AND DESTINY MET
IN THE SAME MOMENT."
SO, HE WAS PUTTING A NONVIOLENT
BLACK MOVEMENT NOT ONLY IN THE
HEART OF AMERICAN PATRIOTISM,
BUT IN THE VANGUARD HEART OF
AMERICAN PATRIOTISM.
>> BUT DO YOU ADMIT THAT
NONVIOLENCE ULTIMATELY DIDN'T
WORK?
THAT IT COULDN'T CHANGE AMERICA?
>> NO.
>> NO.
IT DID CHANGE AMERICA.
>> IT DID CHANGE AMERICA.
>> IT CHANGED IT RADICALLY FOR
ME.
I GREW UP IN ARKANSAS AND I KNOW
WHAT FEAR IS.
WHAT THE MOVEMENT DID,
NONVIOLENCE DID, WAS TO TAKE THE
TERROR OUT OF THE SOUTH. AND FOR
THE FIRST TIME, YOU CAN NOT ONLY
GO TO HOTELS, BUT YOU CAN GO ALL
OVER THE SOUTH WITHOUT MUCH FEAR
OF HARM.
THAT IS A MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT.
>> CERTAINLY I RECOGNIZE THAT.
>> THE WHITE SOUTH WAS THE
POOREST REGION OF THE COUNTRY
WHEN IT WAS SEGREGATED. IT WAS
TOTALLY PREOCCUPIED IN THIS
TERROR.
IT WAS NOT FIT FOR PROFESSIONAL
SPORTS, EVEN, UNTIL NONVIOLENCE
LIFTED IT OUT OF SEGREGATION AND
WHITE SOUTHERN POLITICIANS WERE
NO LONGER STIGMATIZED.
SO, YOU GET JIMMY CARTER AND
BILL CLINTON AND ALL THESE
PEOPLE ELECTED PRESIDENT.
AND THEY'RE ALL STANDING ON THE
SHOULDERS OF A NONVIOLENT BLACK
MOVEMENT.
WHETHER THEY REALIZE IT OR
ACKNOWLEDGE IT OR NOT.
THAT'S THE REASON THAT OUR
BLINKERED MEMORY OF THIS PERIOD
IS SUCH A HANDICAP FOR US TODAY.
>> GRANTED, BUT NONVIOLENCE DID
NOT BRING ABOUT THE ECONOMIC
RESTRUCTURING THAT KING HOPED
FOR.
SO, THAT TODAY HE COULD MAKE THE
SAME SPEECHES ABOUT INEQUALITY,
POVERTY, WORK THAT HE MADE
45 YEARS AGO.
>> POVERTY IS PROBABLY THE
TOUGHEST ISSUE.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW MUCH
NONVIOLENCE?
MAYBE TWO OR THREE YEARS?
AND FOR THE TIME THAT IT WAS
ACTIVE AND THAT IT MATURED INTO
WHAT IS THE MOVEMENT.
MOVEMENT IS A WORD WE USE OFTEN,
BUT DON'T REFLECT ON WHAT IT
MEANS.
IT WAS THE WATCH WORD OF
POLITICS.
PEOPLE WERE MOVED AND LITERALLY
MOVED HISTORY.
BUT IN A VERY, VERY SHORT TIME.
NOW, THE WATCH WORD OF POLITICS
IS SPIN.
YOU KNOW, NOTHING'S GOING
ANYWHERE AND NOBODY'S MOVING.
>> NOT SINCE MARTIN LUTHER KING
HAS INEQUALITY BEEN ON THE TABLE
THE WAY IT WAS AT THE OCCUPY
BRIEFLY APPEARED ON THE SCENE.
AND I WONDERED WATCHING OCCUPY
FROM HERE IF A MARTIN LUTHER
KING HAD RISEN TO EMBODY THAT
MOVEMENT, WOULD THEY HAVE
CARRIED US FURTHER TOWARD THE
CHANGES THAT KING AND OTHERS
WANTED?
>> IT MAY WOULD HAVE.
I'M NOT SURE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, GETTING RID OF
POVERTY, REDISTRIBUTION OF
WEALTH IS NOT AS EASY AS GETTING
THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
THE RIGHT TO VOTE DOESN'T COST
ANYTHING.
BUT REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH
TAKES ACROSS CLASS LINES.
THAT COSTS A LOT.
AND PEOPLE WILL FIGHT YOU IN
ORDER TO PREVENT THAT FROM
HAPPENING.
AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WOULD
TAKE IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT
HAPPEN.
>> IT'S ALSO NOT A SIMPLE
FORMULA.
DR. KING NEVER SAID WE WERE
GOING TO GIVE UP FREEDOM TO HAVE
REDISTRIBUTION IMPOSED ON US.
HE NEVER ADVOCATED SOMETHING
LIKE THAT.
IT IS A HARD INTELLECTUAL,
SPIRITUAL CHALLENGE TO FIGURE
OUT, "HOW DO YOU PRESERVE
FREEDOM AND ADDRESS POVERTY?"
I DON'T THINK OCCUPY GOT THAT
FAR YET.
IT DIDN'T TAKE THAT MUCH
RESPONSIBILITY.
IT WAS JUST KIND OF A SIGN OF
PROTEST AND NOT A DEVELOPED
SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY THE WAY,
EVEN THE SIT-INS WERE TAKING
LESSONS FROM ROSA PARKS.
>> YES.
THAT'S RIGHT.
THE SIT-INS DISRUPTED SOCIETY.
THE FREEDOM RIOTS DISRUPTED
THINGS.
OCCUPY WALL STREET DIDN'T
DISRUPT MUCH OF ANYTHING.
THEY JUST CAMPED DOWN THERE AND
THEY WERE NOT GRASSROOTS IN
QUITE THE SAME WAY THE SOUTHERN
MOVEMENT WAS DURING THE TIME OF
KING.
>> KING WAS IDENTIFYING WITH
LABOR AND WORKERS AND FELT THAT
UNIONS WERE AN ESSENTIAL PART OF
THE CIVIL RIGHTS STRUGGLE.
I HAVE THIS SPEECH FROM 1961,
WHEN HE TOLD DELEGATES OF
AFL-CIO CONVENTION, "OUR NEEDS
ARE IDENTICAL WITH LABOR'S
NEEDS: DECENT WAGES, FAIR
WORKING CONDITIONS, LIVABLE
HOUSING, OLD-AGE SECURITY,
HEALTH AND WELFARE MEASURES,
CONDITIONS IN WHICH FAMILIES CAN
GROW, HAVE EDUCATION FOR THE
CHILDREN, AND RESPECT IN THE
COMMUNITY."
HE FELT THIS RADICAL STRUCTURING
THAT YOU TALK ABOUT COULD NOT
COME WITHOUT LABOR.
AND TODAY, 45 YEARS LATER,
UNIONS ARE LARGELY IMPOTENT,
SMALLEST PERCENTAGE OF THE
WORKFORCE.
SO, WHAT'S HAPPENED TO LABOR
TODAY?
>> LABOR HAS FALLEN IN DISFAVOR
AND FALLEN INTO, IN SOME
RESPECTS, AN INTELLECTUAL
VACUUM.
BECAUSE PEOPLE TAKE FOR GRANTED
THE RIGHT THAT WE GIVE CAPITAL
TO ORGANIZE IN FORM OF
CORPORATIONS.
EVERY CORPORATION IS A PUBLIC
CHARTER.
IT IS A CREATION OF OUR PEOPLE.
IT IS A LEGAL ENTITY THAT WE
CREATE.
AND THE NOTION THAT PEOPLE ON
THE OTHER END NEED SOME SORT OF
VEHICLE IN A GLOBAL ECONOMY IN
ORDER TO MAKE THEIR RIGHTS
EFFECTIVE OUGHT TO BE AN EASY
IDEA AT LEAST TO BEGIN A
CONVERSATION WITH. BUT WE'RE SO
FRIGHTENED THAT ANYTHING -- I
GUESS WE'RE BEHOLDEN TO
CORPORATIONS IN THE WAY THAT
PEOPLE IN THE EARLY MOVEMENT
FELT THAT THEY WERE BEHOLDEN TO
SEGREGATION, THAT THEIR PLACE IN
THE ORDER WAS THREATENED.
IF YOU START MESSING AROUND WITH
THIS THING, YOUR WHOLE PLACE
MIGHT GO.
THAT'S HOW THEY MARSHALED A LOT
OF SOUTHERNERS WHO WERE NOT IN
SYMPATHY WITH SEGREGATION INTO
NOT BEING FOR DOING ANYTHING
ABOUT IT.
AND, SO, RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, I
THINK THAT WE'RE HOSTAGE TO OUR
FEARS AND DON'T REALLY
UNDERSTAND HOW WE NEED TO THINK
ABOUT ECONOMICS.
>> A YEAR BEFORE HIS DEATH, THIS
TIME HE WAS SPEAKING IN
CALIFORNIA AT STANFORD
UNIVERSITY, HE SAID, "IN THE
NORTH, SCHOOLS ARE MORE
SEGREGATED TODAY THAN THEY WERE
IN 1954, WHEN THE SUPREME
COURT'S DECISION ON
DESEGREGATION WAS RENDERED.
ECONOMICALLY, THE *** IS WORSE
OFF TODAY THAN HE WAS 15 AND
20 YEARS AGO.
"AND, SO, THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE
AMONG WHITES AT ONE TIME WAS
ABOUT THE SAME AS THE
UNEMPLOYMENT RATE AMONG NEGROES.
BUT TODAY, THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE
AMONG NEGROES IS TWICE THAT OF
WHITES.
AND THE AVERAGE INCOME OF THE
*** IS TODAY 50% LESS THAN
WHITES."
NOW, TAYLOR AND JAMES, HE COULD
PRACTICALLY SAY THE SAME THING
TODAY, 45 YEARS LATER.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> AND WHEN HE DID IT, THOUGH,
HE COULD ALSO SAY TO AMERICAN
WHITE PEOPLE, "YOU TEND TO THINK
OF BLACK PEOPLE AS HOPELESSLY
CAUGHT UP IN THE REAR.
THE WAY YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THIS
IS THAT THE THINGS THAT ARE
HAPPENING TO BLACK PEOPLE,
UNLESS YOU MAKE COMMON CAUSE,
ARE GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU,
TOO."
THE POVERTY RATES, THE DIVORCE
RATES IN FAMILIES THAT WERE
DECRIED AMONG BLACK PEOPLE NOW,
THE WHITE SOCIETY HAS LONG SINCE
PASSED.
THE NOTION THAT HIGHER EDUCATION
IS PRIMARILY HARDER FOR MEN,
WHICH IS NOW AFFLICTING WHITE
SOCIETY.
MOST OF OUR COLLEGE GRADUATES
ARE FEMALES.
THAT'S BEEN TRUE IN BLACK
SOCIETY FOR YEARS.
AND IT HAS HAD EFFECTS IN THE
CULTURE.
SO, DR. KING SAID BLACK FOLKS
ARE A HEADLIGHT OF THE PROBLEMS
WE NEED TO DEAL WITH.
AND WHITE PEOPLE TOO OFTEN JUST
SEE THEM AS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS
TO BE LEFT BEHIND AND OUT OF
MIND.
>> SO, WHAT WOULD LIBERATION
THEOLOGY SAY TODAY ABOUT WHAT
TAYLOR JUST DESCRIBED?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, LIBERATION
THEOLOGY CAME INTO BEING LARGELY
BECAUSE MAINSTREAM THEOLOGY HAD
NOT SPOKEN TO THAT GAP.
SO, IT WAS IN THE LATE '60S,
EARLY '70S, THROUGHOUT THE '80S,
ALL THE WAY UP TO THE PRESENT
DAY THAT LIBERATION THEOLOGY HAS
ITS MEANING PRIMARILY IN SEEING
JESUS AS ONE IN SOLIDARITY WITH
THE POOR TO GET THEM OUT OF
POVERTY.
SO, IN ACTUAL FACT, WHAT I SEE
KING AS, IS A PRECURSOR TO
LIBERATION THEOLOGY. I SEE KING
ACTUALLY MAKING LIBERATION
THEOLOGY, PARTICULARLY ON THE
AMERICAN SCENE, AS REAL AND
TRUE.
AND I THINK IF HE WERE HERE
TODAY, HE WOULD BE TRYING TO
BRIDGE THIS GAP BETWEEN THE RICH
AND THE POOR.
HE FOCUSED ON BLACK PEOPLE BUT
IT WAS ALWAYS MULTIRACIAL FOR
KING.
>> TO CONNECT IT TO WHAT JIM
JUST SAID, I THINK THAT AN AWFUL
LOT OF PEOPLE TODAY ARE FEARFUL
OF THE BASIC ECONOMIC STRUCTURE
AND IT KEEPS THEM FROM THINKING
AND RATTLING AND GETTING
TOGETHER TO ADDRESS THESE
PROBLEMS.
HE SAID THAT KING CONQUERED HIS
FEAR.
I SAY IT TOOK HIM A WHILE TO DO
IT, BUT HE CERTAINLY DID IT.
>> YEAH.
YEAH.
>> FANNIE LOU HAMER CONQUERED
HER FEAR.
EVERYTHING THAT SHE DID,
INCLUDING TESTIFYING AS AN
UNPOLISHED WOMAN BEFORE THE
DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION, SHE DID
WHEN SHE WAS HOMELESS.
SHE HAD BEEN EVICTED FROM HER
PLANTATION.
BUT SHE HAD GOTTEN RID OF HER
FEAR AND HAD A VISION THAT WOULD
EMPOWER AND MAKE PRODUCTIVE
WHOLE GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE WHO
RACISM HAD DENIED, YOU KNOW.
SO, WE HAVE AN AWFUL LOT OF
PRODUCTIVE PEOPLE IN THE SOCIETY
TODAY WHO ARE PRODUCTIVE AND
EDUCATED AND HAVE TALENT BECAUSE
THE MOVEMENT HELPED PEOPLE
CONQUER THEIR FEAR.
BUT WE'RE NOW AT ANOTHER STAGE.
NOW IT'S HITTING US AND I THINK
EVERYBODY IS AFRAID TO DEAL WITH
THESE ISSUES IN THE WAY THAT THE
MOVEMENT DEALT WITH THEM, WHICH
WAS, "I'M GOING TO LET LOOSE OF
MY FEAR.
I'M NOT GOING TO WORRY ABOUT MY
SAVINGS AND MY WEALTH AND
WHETHER MY KIDS ARE GOING TO GET
INTO HARVARD.
I'M GOING DEAL WITH THE BASIC
ISSUES OF HOW WE CAN COPE WITH
THESE THINGS TOGETHER."
>> GIVEN THE ABSENCE OF A
MOVEMENT TODAY, GIVEN THE POWER
OF MONEY, CORPORATIONS, AND THE
STRUCTURE, WHAT DO YOU THINK
MARTIN LUTHER KING WOULD SAY TO
THOSE IN POWER TODAY?
>> I THINK HE WOULD SAY
SOMETHING ABOUT, "YOU -- THIS
SOCIETY CANNOT SURVIVE WITH THE
HUGE GAP BETWEEN THE 1% AND THE
99%.
WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF GAP,
THEN YOU DESTROY THE POSSIBILITY
OF GENUINE HUMAN COMMUNITY AND
SHOWING HOW WE ARE
INTERCONNECTED TOGETHER.
>> I PRETTY MUCH AGREE WITH
THAT.
I THINK HE WOULD HAVE TO BE
SAYING, "DON'T GIVE INTO PRIDE
AND THINKING THAT IT IS SOLELY
YOUR GENIUS THAT'S CREATING ALL
THESE BILLIONS THAT YOU'RE
SITTING ON. YOU ARE REAPING THE
INTERCONNECTEDNESS THAT WE HAVE.
"AND THAT INTERCONNECTEDNESS IS
PRECIOUS.
AND IT IS POLITICAL.
AND THAT CAN VANISH.
AND SO, YOU NEED TO LOOK BEYOND
THAT."
WE ONLY HAVE TWO HOPES:
ENLIGHTENMENT, WHICH COMES FROM
REALLY WRESTLING AND CONQUERING
YOUR PRIDE AND APPEALING TO THE
YOUNG, QUITE FRANKLY.
AND CATASTROPHE.
THAT'S THE ONLY OTHER HARD
TEACHER THAT WE WOULD HAVE,
WHICH IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO
RIDE THIS SYSTEM INTO A
CATASTROPHE.
AND THEN WE WILL WAKE UP AND
SAY, "WHY DIDN'T WE DO IT
BEFORE?
WHY DIDN'T WE LISTEN TO MARTIN
LUTHER KING?"
>> TAYLOR BRANCH AND JAMES CONE,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING
WITH ME AND FOR YOUR THOUGHTS
AND IDEAS.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU.
>> MARTIN LUTHER KING'S ELOQUENT
TRUTH-TELLING AND THE SAD
REALITY OF TODAY, THE DREAM OF
ECONOMIC JUSTICE, A DREAM
DEFERRED, THE GAP BETWEEN RICH
AND POOR WORSE THAN EVER LED ME
TO A YOUNG MAN WHO LIVES IN
WASHINGTON, DC, WHERE HE TEACHES
LITERATURE AND WRITING AT
AMERICAN UNIVERSITY.
HIS NAME IS KYLE DARGAN, AND HE
WROTE THIS POEM, "A HOUSE
DIVIDED", IT BEGINS, "ON A
RAILROAD CAR IN YOUR AMERICA."
>> IN YOUR AMERICA, BLOOD PULSES
WITHIN THE FIELDS, SLOW-POACHING
A MILL SAW'S BURIED FLESH.
IN MY AMERICA, MY FATHER AWAKENS
AGAIN THANKFUL THAT MY FACE IS
NOT THE FACE RETURNING HIS GLARE
FROM ABOVE 11 O'CLOCK NEWS
*** HEADLINES.
IN HIS IMAGINATION, THE ODDS ARE
JUST AS CONVINCING THAT I WOULD
BE POSTED ON A CORNER PUSHING
POWDER INSTEAD OF POEMS.
NO REFLECTION OF HIM AS A FATHER
NOR ME AS A SON.
WE WERE MERELY BORN IN A CITY
WHERE THE RUES BEYOND OUR DOORS
WERE THE STREETS THAT SHANGHAIED
SOULS.
TO YOU, MY AMERICA APPEARS
DISTANT, IF EVEN REAL AT ALL.
WHILE YOU ARE BARELY VISIBLE TO
ME.
YET WE CONTINUE STEALING GLANCES
AT EACH OTHER FROM ACROSS THE
TATTERED HALLWAYS OF THIS
OVERGROWN HOUSE WE CALL A
NATION.
>>> I MEAN IN WASHINGTON, DC,
WHERE I LIVE, YOU KNOW, I WAKE
UP IN SOUTHEAST DC WHERE THE
UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, IT'S AROUND
22%.
AND I GO ACROSS THE CITY TO AU.
>> AMERICAN UNIVERSITY?
>> RIGHT, WHERE, YOU KNOW,
UNEMPLOYMENT IS 3%, POPULATION'S
VERY AFFLUENT.
SO YOU KNOW, EVERY DAY, I'M
FORCED TO DEAL WITH THOSE
REALITIES AND RECONCILE THEM IN
MY HEAD.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT
COMMUTE THAT I HAVE TO DEAL
WITH, EVERY WEEK, COMES OUT IN
MY POETRY BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE
OFTEN I'M TRYING TO RECONCILE OR
MAKE SENSE OF THESE CONFLICTING
WORLDS THAT GEOGRAPHICALLY
AREN'T THAT VERY FAR FROM EACH
OTHER.
>> KYLE DARGAN GREW UP IN
NEWARK, NEW JERSEY WITH WORKING
PARENTS DETERMINED HE WOULD
ESCAPE A DETERIORATING CITY AND
MAKE SOMETHING OF HIMSELF.
BUT ECHOES OF THE INNER CITY
STILL RESONATE WHEN DARGAN WALKS
THROUGH HIS NEW NEIGHBORHOOD IN
SOUTHEAST DC.
>> ISN'T YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD MORE
OR LESS IN THE SHADOWS OF THE
CAPITAL?
>> I THINK REALTORS WANT PEOPLE
TO THINK THAT, BUT ACTUALLY,
WE'RE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
ANACOSTIA RIVER.
ACTUALLY, MY NEIGHBORHOOD NOW, I
SAW IT LISTED SOMEWHERE ON A
REAL ESTATE WEBSITE AS CAPITOL
HILL EAST.
AND I'M LIKE, "THAT'S A BIT OF A
STRETCH," YOU KNOW, IF BENNING
HEIGHTS WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE CITY, IT WOULD BE PALISADES.
YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE
GEORGETOWN.
I MEAN, BEAUTIFUL HOUSES,
BEAUTIFUL VIEW, BUT YOU KNOW,
YOU'RE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
ANACOSTIA.
IT'S NOT PERCEIVED THE SAME WAY.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIVE ONE WAY ON
ONE SIDE OF THE ANACOSTIA RIVER
AND ANOTHER WAY ON THE OTHER
SIDE.
>> THERE'S A LINE IN THE POEM
THAT SAYS "WHERE THE RUES BEYOND
OUR DOORS WERE THE STREETS THAT
SHANGHAIED SOULS"?
IS THAT YOUR COMMUNITY NOW?
THE RUES BEYOND THE DOOR?
OR THE STREETS THAT SHANGHAIED
SOULS?
>> SURE, BECAUSE CAUSE I MEAN,
LOTS OF, LOTS OF GOOD KIDS JUST
GET CAUGHT UP IN TROUBLE.
AND THAT'S THAT LINE, WHEN I'M
TALKING ABOUT MY FATHER, THIS IS
TRUE.
YOU KNOW, MY DAD, TO THIS DAY
SOMETIMES WE TALK.
AND HE'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, "I'M
JUST REALLY HAPPY YOU'RE NOT ONE
OF THOSE KNUCKLEHEADS OUT IN A
CORNER."
AND AS MY FATHER, AS MY FATHER,
I CAN SEE WHERE HE HAS THAT
CONCERN, BUT TO ME, I'M LIKE
THAT WAS NEVER REALLY AN OPTION.
LIKE I NEVER REALLY CONSIDERED
THAT YOU OR MY MOTHER WOULD
ACCEPT THAT.
THAT'S WHERE I COME FROM, BUT
WHAT HE SAYS IS, LIKE, "NO, YOU
DON'T UNDERSTAND. LIKE WHATEVER
WE WANTED, THERE'S THE
ENVIRONMENT TO BE CONTENDED
WITH.
AND SOMETIMES YOU LOSE TO THE
ENVIRONMENT."
AND THAT'S WHAT YOU SEE WITH A
LOT OF KIDS.
LIKE THERE ARE LOTS OF GOOD KIDS
THAT JUST LOSE TO THE
ENVIRONMENT, YOU KNOW, NOT
BECAUSE THEY WANT TO.
YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT TO BE
IN THAT SITUATION.
YOU DON'T WANT TO BE DEAD AT 17.
YOU DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO
HAVE MULTIPLE KIDS, YOU KNOW, AT
16, 18.
BUT SOMETIMES THE ENVIRONMENT
LEADS YOU DOWN THAT PATH.
AND YOU KNOW, AS A PARENT AND
THIS, I GUESS, THE BIG THING FOR
ME, BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ANY
CHILDREN.
AND THE QUESTION IS, IF I HAVE
KIDS, WELL, I STAY IN SOUTHEAST
DC, BECAUSE, LIKE, DO I WANT TO
CONTEND WITH THE ENVIRONMENT.
I WANT TO BE THERE, YOU KNOW.
I WANT TO BE A PRESENCE BUT AM I
WILLING TO RISK MY KIDS FOR
THAT.
I DON'T KNOW.
>> I'M NOT SURE THAT I
UNDERSTAND WHY YOU CHOSE TO LIVE
LIKE THAT WHEN YOU COULD HAVE
GOTTEN OUT AND DID.
YOUR PARENTS WORKED HARD.
YOU WORKED HARD.
YOU GOT OUT.
YOU GO TO WASHINGTON.
YOU HAVE A FINE TEACHING
POSITION AT AN IMPORTANT
INSTITUTION AND YOU CHOOSE, IN A
SENSE, TO GO HOME AGAIN,
ALTHOUGH IT'S ONLY A COUPLE OF
MILES AWAY.
>> WHEN I FIRST GOT TO AU, I
LIVED IN GLOVER PARK, WHICH SOME
PEOPLE CALL UPPER GEORGETOWN
WHICH IS RIGHT AROUND AU, VERY
QUIET, BUT NONE OF MY NEIGHBORS
REALLY TALKED TO ME.
THE POLICE WOULD FOLLOW ME
AROUND SOMETIMES, WHICH IS FINE
BY ME, BECAUSE I FELT LIKE I HAD
A POLICE ESCORT ALL THE TIME.
I KNEW I WASN'T GOING TO DO
ANYTHING.
IT'S THAT IDEA OF COMMUNITY,
LIKE WHY WOULD I WANT TO LIVE
SOMEWHERE WHERE NONE OF MY
NEIGHBORS TALKED TO ME, MOST
LIKELY, BECAUSE I'M YOUNG AND MY
SKIN IS BROWN.
THAT'S NOT, THAT'S NOT HOME TO
ME.
WHEN I LIVED IN NORTHWEST, IF
ANYTHING, I WAS CONSTANTLY
REMINDED OF HOW I WAS AN
OUTSIDER.
WHEN I'M IN SOUTHEAST, YOU KNOW,
NO ONE, I MEAN, NO ONE EVEN ASKS
ME WHAT I DO.
I'M JUST THERE IN THE COMMUNITY.
IF I TOLD THEM I WAS A
PROFESSOR, YOU KNOW, GIVEN MY
AGE THEY PROBABLY WOULDN'T EVEN
BELIEVE ME.
>> HOW OLD ARE YOU?
>> 32.
>> THEY WOULD FIND THAT
INCREDULOUS, RIGHT?
>> YEAH, THE REALITY FOR MANY OF
THESE KIDS, LIKE, AND I KNOW
THIS IS, YOU KNOW, MAYBE STRANGE
FOR US, BUT MANY OF THEM, LIKE,
DON'T EXPECT TO LIVE PAST 19,
18. SO THEY EVEN THINK THAT
YOU'RE AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN YOUNG
ADULT WITH A PROFESSION, LIKE
EVEN THAT FOR MANY OF THEM IS
SOMETHING THAT THEY JUST DON'T
SEE, I MEAN, WHEN YOU HAVE
ACCESS TO MANY DIFFERENT
IDENTITIES IN YOUR COMMUNITY, IT
GIVES YOU SOMETHING TO CHOOSE
FROM. YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE
SOMETHING ELSE TO LOOK AT, TO
ASPIRE TOWARDS.
SO MY THING IS, LIKE, I JUST
WANT TO BE ANOTHER INFLUENCE IN
MY COMMUNITY, THERE ARE OTHERS.
>> YOU SAID THEY DON'T EXPECT TO
LIVE BEYOND 18 OR 19.
>> YEAH.
LIKE I HEAR THEM, BECAUSE I RIDE
THE BUS.
AND YOU KNOW, AND ON A SATURDAY
MORNING, YOU LISTEN TO TEENAGERS
TALK ABOUT WHICH OF THEIR
FRIENDS GOT SHOT THE NIGHT
BEFORE, WHO DIED, WHO'S STILL
WALKING AROUND WITH A COAT THAT
HAS BLOOD FROM ONE OF THEIR
FRIENDS ON THEM.
AND IT'S A CASUAL CONVERSATION
TO THEM.
AND I'M GOING CRAZY INSIDE,
LISTENING TO THIS, BECAUSE YOU
KNOW, IT'S NOT NORMAL.
IT SHOULDN'T BE NORMAL.
BUT IT IS FOR THEM.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE YOU
NEED, YOU KNOW, THAT
GENERATIONAL EXCHANGE, SO THAT
SOMEONE CAN COME IN AND SAY,
"HEY, YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU'RE
LIVING THIS RIGHT LIFESTYLE
RIGHT NOW, BUT THIS IS NOT
NORMAL FOR YOU.
IT SHOULDN'T BE NORMAL FOR YOU."
>> DOES POLITICS MAKE SENSE IN
YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD?
>> WELL ASIDE FROM SOME PEOPLE I
KNOW HAVING JOBS, WORKING FOR
THE GOVERNMENT, I DON'T THINK
MOST PEOPLE IN SOUTHEAST DC SEE
WHAT HAPPENS AT THE FEDERAL
LEVEL IN TERMS OF, LIKE, HAVING
AN IMMEDIATE IMPACT ON THEIR
LIVES.
YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT I HEARD
BOUNCING AROUND THE TIME THAT
BARACK OBAMA GOT ELECTED.
AND IT'S LIKE, OH, THIS IS GOING
TO BE SUCH A SYMBOL FOR KIDS,
YOU KNOW, TO LOOK UP TO. YOU'RE
GOING TO HAVE AN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT.
BUT YOU KNOW, HAVING AN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT
DOESN'T DEAL WITH THE DRUG
ISSUES, DOESN'T DEAL WITH THE
TEEN PREGNANCY ISSUES.
IT DOESN'T DEAL WITH THE LACK OF
PARENTING ISSUES.
YOU KNOW, ALL THOSE THINGS THAT
MAINTAIN THE REALITY, THE
NEGATIVE REALITIES. IT'S NOT ALL
NEGATIVE, BUT THE NEGATIVE
REALITIES OF SOUTHEAST DC.
SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SEE
THE CAPITOL FROM THE OTHER SIDE
OF THE RIVER. BUT IN SOME WAYS,
THESE IT'S VERY MUCH A DIFFERENT
WORLD.
>> READ FOR US ONE OF THOSE
POEMS YOU WROTE ABOUT THOSE KIDS
WHERE YOU LIVE. IT'S CALLED, "WE
DIE SOON."
>> "WE DIE SOON."
THIS JAZZ.
ONCE YOU LEARN IT AS YOUR OWN,
YOU WILL LISTEN TO THE BRASSY
CHATTER OF OLD BROWN MEN RIFFING
ON RECENT MURDERS.
THE BOY WHO WAS KILLING FOLKS
ONE WHO HAD A CLAW HAMMER.
NO, IN VIRGINIA, THE BOY
SLASHING WOMEN'S BEHINDS.
NO, SIR, THIS BOY WAS STABBING
PEOPLE, COLD -- SEATED ON
CONCAVE MILK CRATES OR THEIR
SWEAT, AND ENGINE-OIL ANOINTED
LIMBS DROOPING OFF A STATION
WAGON'S TRUNK DOOR, MUSCLES
SLACK SAVE FOR FINGERS CLUTCHING
COLD BEER.
THROUGH APPRECIATION, YOU WILL
LEARN TO DISTINGUISH THE HOLLERS
OF YOUNGINS THAT END IN SWEET
JABS AND HAND SLAPS FROM THE
HOLLERS THAT SUMMON LIGHTS AND
SIRENS UP THE HILL.
ELECTRICITY DROWNS THE NIGHTS.
THE RESTLESS BIRDS SING BACK TO
THE EVENING GUNSHOTS --A
MAGNUM'S BARITONE POW.
WITH AGE, YOU'LL COME TO LAMENT
JUNE'S MUSIC, ITS MELODIES OF
BLEEDING BOYS, ANOTHER UNEVEN
TEMPO OF JACKINGS, STRONG-ARM
THEFTS OMITTED FROM NEWSPAPERS.
THEY WANT TO GET WHITE FOLKS
MOVING OVER HERE.
NO TRANSCRIBED TUNES.
THESE NOTES PUNCTURE, LODGE IN
VERTEBRAE, MAKE JUKEBOXES OF OUR
SPINES.
THIS LIVING IS TO BE ERECT WITH
SONG, AND THEN BE BENT BY IT.
>> THE POEM, "WE DIE SOON," IT
TAKES ITS TITLE FROM THE FINAL
LINES OF GWENDOLYN BROOKS' POEM
"WE REAL COOL."
AND IN THE POEM, BROOKS WAS
LOOKING AT THESE TRUANT KIDS IN
A POOL HALL.
AND SHE DECIDED, RATHER THAN
JUDGING THEM, YOU KNOW, FOR
BEING CHILDREN IN THE POOL HALL,
SHE'S GOING TO TRY TO EXPLORE,
"WELL, I WONDER WHAT THEY'RE
THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW?"
SHE'S GOING TO TRY TO CAPTURE,
LIKE, "I WONDER WHAT THEY FEEL,"
WITHOUT JUDGMENT.
AND SO I THINK FOR ME, I GUESS I
WANTED TO TAKE A SIMILAR
APPROACH TO WRITING ABOUT
SOUTHEAST DC.
>> DO YOU READ THAT TO YOUR
STUDENTS AT AMERICAN UNIVERSITY?
>> NO. POEMS LIKE THAT I TEND TO
SHARE WITH THE KIDS FROM THOSE
COMMUNITIES AND YOU KNOW, I
NEVER SEE MYSELF AS SPEAKING FOR
THEM, BECAUSE I'M NOT LIVING
THEIR EXPERIENCE, BUT EVERY ONCE
IN A WHILE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF
THEM WILL ASK ME, LIKE, ARE YOU
FROM HERE?
AND I SAY, "NO."
AND IT'S LIKE, "WELL, YOU SOUND
LIKE YOU UNDERSTAND IT."
AND I SAID, "WELL, I'M FROM, I'M
FROM NEWARK.
IT'S SOMEWHAT SIMILAR."
BUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I DON'T
LIVE THEIR EXPERIENCES.
SO I TRY TO GET THEM TO WRITE,
BECAUSE THE WORLD NEEDS TO SEE
SOUTHEAST DC AS THEY SEE IT.
>> YOU ATTEMPTED TO HAVE THEM
LAST YEAR READ AT THE WHITE
HOUSE.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
>> I GUESS SOMEONE FROM THE
PRESIDENT'S COMMITTEE ON THE
ARTS AND HUMANITIES WAS LOOKING
FOR A POET IN THE WASHINGTON, DC
AREA TO, YOU KNOW, RUN A PROGRAM
THAT WOULD BRING, YOU KNOW,
POETRY TO KIDS.
AND SOME OF THE CHILDREN GOT TO
READ IN FRONT OF MICHELLE OBAMA
AT THE WHITE HOUSE.
AND IT WAS IT WAS FUNNY, BECAUSE
I THINK THE ENTIRE TIME WE WERE
WORKING ON THIS PROJECT, THEY
DIDN'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY
WERE GOING TO GO TO THE WHITE
HOUSE.
>> THE KIDS?
YOUR KIDS?
>> YEAH.
LIKE WE TELL THEM AND THEY AND
THEY WOULD SAY, "YEAH, YEAH,
WHITE HOUSE, WHATEVER.
YOU KNOW, YEAH.
WE SEE IT ALL THE TIME ON THE
BUS, WE RIDE PAST IT."
BUT THEN WHEN THEY ACTUALLY GOT
THERE AND THEY ACTUALLY GOT TO
MEET SOME OF THE MEMBERS ON THE
PRESIDENT'S COMMITTEE THEIR
FACES, LIKE KERRY WASHINGTON,
THEIR FACES, LIKE LIT UP AND
THEY GOT NERVOUS.
AND I SAID, "YOU KNOW, DON'T ACT
NERVOUS NOW.
YOU WERE ALL COOL BEFORE, WHEN
YOU DIDN'T THINK YOU WERE GOING
TO COME.
SO, NOW YOU'RE HERE. JUST RELAX
AND DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO."
AND THEY DID A GREAT JOB.
THEY DID A REALLY GREAT JOB.
I'M PROUD OF THEM.
>> DO YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST
POEM YOU EVER HEARD IN SCHOOL?
>> YOU KNOW, I LIKE TO THINK OF
HIP-HOP AS ONE OF MY FIRST
ADVANCED ENGLISH TEACHERS.
I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH.
I HAD SOME TEACHERS, MR. FINLEY
WAS ONE, HE PLAYED NAS HAS A
SONG.
YOU KNOW," WHOSE WORLD IS THIS?
THE WORLD IS YOURS."
AND THAT'S SORT OF, LIKE, THE
REFRAIN OF THE SONG.
AND THAT WAS A REALLY BIG MOMENT
FOR ME AS A YOUNG
AFRICAN-AMERICAN KID TO HEAR
THIS RAPPER TELL ME THAT, TO ASK
ME THIS QUESTION, YOU KNOW,
WHOSE WORLD IS THIS?
AND TO SAY THE WORLD IS YOURS.
AND GIVING ME THE SPACE TO THINK
ABOUT THAT.
YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT WHAT
DOES THAT MEAN?
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN I HAVE
ACCESS TOO? WHAT DOES IT MEAN I
CAN DO?
AND YOU KNOW, I SAW LOTS OF
RAPPERS I'D SEE A TRIBE CALLED
QUEST, DE LA SOUL, ARTISTS THAT
WERE USING LANGUAGE TO MAKE THE
WORLD THEIRS.
AND EVEN TODAY, BECAUSE A LOT OF
THOSE MY FAVORITE HIP-HOP
ALBUMS, THEY CAME OUT WHEN I WAS
11, WHEN I WAS 10.
SO, I'M STILL GOING BACK AND
LISTENING TO THEM AS A MAN AND
SAYING, PICKING OUT DIFFERENT
METAPHORS, PICKING OUT DIFFERENT
ALLUSIONS, SAYING, "OH, THAT'S
WHAT THAT MEANT."
SO I MEAN, IN MANY WAYS, I'M
STILL LEARNING FROM HIP-HOP.
>> GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF AN
ALLUSION OR A METAPHOR THAT
STILL RESONATES AND INFORMS YOUR
TAKE ON THE WORLD TODAY.
>> A TRIBE CALLED QUEST HAS A
SONG CALLED "CHECK THE RHIME."
AND IN IT Q-TIP, ABSTRACT, THE
RAPPER, HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, YOU
KNOW, "IF KNOWLEDGE IS THE KEY,
THEN JUST SHOW ME THE LOCK."
AND AS A KID, YOU UNDERSTAND,
LIKE, OH YES, I GO TO SCHOOL,
BECAUSE SCHOOL'S IMPORTANT.
BUT AS AN ADULT, YOU REALIZE
IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, NO,
PERSPECTIVE IS IMPORTANT.
AND YOU KNOW, CRITICAL THINKING
IS IMPORTANT.
AND THE ABILITY TO KNOW WHAT YOU
DON'T KNOW WHICH IS ON THE OTHER
SIDE OF THE DOOR, YOU KNOW.
YOU UNLOCK ONE DOOR AND THERE'S
ANOTHER DOOR, BUT THEN THAT DOOR
OPENS TO WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW.
YOU HAVE TO LEARN ALL THAT
BEFORE TO GET TO THE NEXT DOOR.
SO, SEEING AN IMAGE PLAYED OUT
OVER AND OVER THROUGH MY LIFE
YOU KNOW, WHENEVER I HEAR THAT
LINE, I SMILE A LITTLE BIT,
BECAUSE I'M LIKE, "YEAH, I LIVE
THAT. I'VE BEEN LIVING THAT, YOU
KNOW, FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS."
>> TELL ME ABOUT THIS ONE AND
THEN READ IT.
>> WHEN I RIDE THE BUS, YOU SEE
A LOT OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD TAGS,
KIDS WRITE THEIR DIFFERENT
NEIGHBORHOOD CREW GANG TAGS ON
BUS SEATS, ON STOP SIGNS.
AND ONE DAY, I SAW ON THE
TELEPHONE POLE, THERE WAS A SIGN
ADVERTISING REST IN PEACE
T-SHIRTS.
AND I REALIZED, LIKE, YOU KNOW,
THE KIDS WRITING THESE TAGS ON
THE BUSSES ARE PROBABLY KIDS
THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE THEIR
FACES AND NAMES ON THESE, YOU
KNOW, REST IN PEACE T-SHIRTS.
THEY'RE NOT GANGSTERS.
THEY'RE NOT HOODLUMS.
THEY'RE JUST BOYS.
AND SO I WROTE THIS POEM,
"CREWS."
THOSE CLAY TERRACE BOYS.
THOSE BENNING PARK BOYS.
THOSE SIMPLE CITY BOYS.
THOSE RIVER TERRACE BOYS.
AFTER HOURS THOSE BOYS.
THOSE SHOOT-AND-DASH BOYS.
SIREN-FED BOYS.
FATHERLESS BOYS SIRING BOYS.
NOISE THEM.
URBAN
RESERVATION━HUNT-AND-GATHER
BOYS.
KEEP THE BLOOD ON THE
RESERVATION.
HUNT THOSE BOYS. SOLVE FOR X:
HOW MANY WHYS AND ZOMBIES EQUAL
THOSE BOYS.
GIVE ME DAP THOSE BOYS.
MY BOY.
MY COUSIN.
NO TALLER THAN TREE TRUNKS
CHOPPED.
THOSE BOYS SUNDOWN COLORFUL,
WATCH THOSE BOYS.
SOUTHEAST HOCUS POCUS, YOU SEE,
DON'T SEE THOSE BOYS.
THEN YOU READ THOSE BOYS: POLICE
BLOTTER THOSE BOYS.
THEN THEY'RE INKTHOSE
BOYS --RIP GRAFFITI ON WHITE
TEES: THOSE BOYS.
THOSE CLAY TERRACE BOYS.
THOSE BENNING PARK BOYS.
THOSE RIVER TERRACE BOYS.
THOSE DRAMA CITY BOYS.
>>> I'M WONDERING CAN POETRY
REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE WHEN
KIDS ARE GOING HUNGRY OR THEIR
FRIENDS ARE BEING SHOT AT WITH
GUNS OR THEIR PARENTS ARE LOSING
THEIR HOMES?
DOES POETRY HOLD ANYTHING OUT TO
THEM?
>> I THINK THERE'S SOLACE.
I MEAN, I THINK SOME ARE MOVED
TO ACTION, BUT I THINK THERE'S
UNFAIR PRESSURE PUT ON POETRY.
LIKE I'M GLAD THAT PEOPLE EXPECT
SO MUCH OF IT, BUT YOU LOOK AT,
I MEAN, HONESTLY, LIKE YOU LOOK
AT CONGRESS RIGHT NOW, I MEAN,
LEGISLATION ISN'T FIXING THOSE
THINGS.
SO, WHY WOULD YOU EXPECT POETRY
TO?
I MEAN, MAYBE POETRY CAN INSPIRE
PEOPLE TO GET ON THEIR
LEGISLATORS TO DO SOMETHING, TO
FIX SOMETHING IN THEIR LIVES.
BUT I MEAN THAT'S THE PLACE
WHERE POETRY OPERATES.
IT DOESN'T OPERATE AT THE
INFRASTRUCTURE LEVEL.
IT OPERATES AT THE MOTIVATION
LEVEL IT GETS PEOPLE.
AND THAT'S WHY I SAY IT'S
IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, IF POETRY
ISN'T SPEAKING TO PEOPLE, IF YOU
CAN READ A POEM AND IT JUST
WASHES OVER YOU, GOES OVER YOUR
HEAD, YOU DON'T FEEL ANY HUMAN
CONNECTION.
THEN I FEEL LIKE THAT'S A WASTE
OF THE ART FORM, BECAUSE IT
COULD BE MAKING THAT CONNECTION
WITH SOMEONE, POSSIBLY URGING
THEM TO LOOK AT THE WORLD
DIFFERENTLY, TO DO SOMETHING
DIFFERENTLY.
THAT MAY OR MAY NOT LEAVE THEM
TO TAKING ACTIONS, BUT YOU KNOW,
IF YOU DON'T TRY.
>> KYLE DARGAN, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR BEING WITH ME.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> AT OUR WEBSITE,
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