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bjbjLULU MARGARET WARNER: And for more on this rapidly unfolding story, we turn to Richard
McGregor, a longtime correspondent in Beijing for The Financial Times and other papers,
and author of "The Party: The Secret World of China's Communist Rulers," and Xiao Qiang,
director of the Berkeley China Internet Project at U.C. Berkeley and editor of the China Digital
Times, an online publication. Welcome to you both. So, Richard McGregor, beginning with
you, what do you make of this latest bombshell, that Bo Xilai's bugging system wasn't just
bugging crime figures, which was the ostensible reason, but top Chinese officials? RICHARD
MCGREGOR, The Financial Times: Well, it's really the latest fascinating insight into
the sort of hitherto closed world of Chinese politics. And on this occasion, frankly, it's
positively Nixonian, isn't it? I suspect that a lot of this goes on. What is one of the
most remarkable aspects of a remarkable case is that we're learning about it in almost
real time. It often takes years for this to come out. I'm sure they bug all -- each other.
They all keep files of dirt on each other. And it's just at different tipping points
when they become valuable and are used. But it certainly shows that's how they play the
game internally, and it's very tough. MARGARET WARNER: And, Xiao Qiang, does this also suggest
that the reason he's been not only stripped of power, but humiliated, is not just the
*** and the original stories we heard? XIAO QIANG, Berkeley China Internet Project,
University of California, Berkeley: I think everyone who lives China, grows China, is
an adult in Chinese society or someone familiar with Chinese politics will understand. It's
not because the -- Mr. Bo's -- some wrongdoing, such as his family members involved in a ***
case or himself and his close partners, police chief *** Lijun, involved in wiretapping
a leader, causing his downfall. It's because he's being sacked. He's a loser of a Chinese
political struggle now, and then there s dirt now coming out against him. Everyone familiar
with the Chinese authoritarian regime, a one-party, closed-box, dark politics will believe Mr.
Bo, all these charges and the new facts against him are probably not an exception, such as
his couple -- this couple, the Bo family, has been -- secretly transferred $6 billion
U.S. worth of funds to U.S., the British and other overseas banking accounts according
to, again, another Chinese official's leaking. MARGARET WARNER: Yes, all of this leaking.
So, Richard McGregor, there have been reports on the Internet -- and then I want to get
back to Mr. Xiao about the Internet, too, because that's his expertise -- but that actually
that Bo Xilai was actually trying to undermine the current Chinese leadership and perhaps
even the presumed successor to President Hu, Xi Jinping. Is that -- is there evidence of
that? RICHARD MCGREGOR: There's no direct evidence of that. I think his major crime,
if you like, politically, was to campaign so publicly for a place in the inner circle
of the Chinese leadership. He was a very charismatic Western-style politician. That doesn't sit
well with other leaders, because you're meant to do your business behind closed doors. Having
said that, I mean, it's true they all have dirt on each other, but this is pretty exceptional.
Not every top Chinese leader is involved or their families are involved in ***. And
that makes it exceptional. He's a loser in a power struggle, but there's more to it than
that, I think. MARGARET WARNER: Back to you, Mr. Xiao. You're smiling. Did you have a comment
you wanted to make? Or I was just going to ask you a. . . XIAO QIANG: Well, I guess we
don't know if other leaders' family members have been involved or not, right, not until
they became a loser. RICHARD MCGREGOR: Well, that's true, but this is a pretty remarkable
case. I don't think we should assume they're all sort of stuffing cyanide down foreign
businessmen in hotel rooms. (LAUGHTER) MARGARET WARNER: Back to you, Mr. Xiao. XIAO QIANG:
This is because of *** involving a foreigner, a British. But here's the information in politics
that -- with the Chinese characteristics, if you want to call it, because in a democratic,
open society, the political enemies will go after each other in an open media space. But
in a closed Chinese high politics, the party media is not usually being used in that way,
that different political agenda or different political opponents go after each other. But
in the Internet age, it became the information become rumors that leak to foreign media,
to Hong Kong and Taiwan newspapers, to Internet, even to the micro-blogging spaces. And every
fight of this political struggle is trying to -- maneuvering the informational politics
and advancing their own agenda. MARGARET WARNER: So, do you agree, Richard McGregor, that even
though there's much made of how they're trying to shut down -- if you try to Google -- or,
of course, you can't Google anymore in China, but if you try to search for Bo Xilai or Gu
Kailai, it's blocked, but that actually Chinese officials are involved in leaking all this
to the Western press and getting it on the Internet? RICHARD MCGREGOR: Well, there's
certainly much more leaking. . . XIAO QIANG: Yes. RICHARD MCGREGOR: . . . than usual. You
can't control it like you used to be able to. And because of that, clearly, some senior
factions are using this to -- for their own ends, just like they do in the West. I mean,
I think they are overall trying to close it down. But, as our other guest knows better
than most, that's just about impossible to do these days. MARGARET WARNER: So, Xiao Qiang,
where is this going? XIAO QIANG: Well, first of all, this is a -- biggest political scandal
since Tiananmen massacre, in the last 20 -- almost 20, 33 years. But, again, it's not such an
exception if you consider the history of Chinese Communist Party since People's Republic of
China being founded. Almost whenever it comes the highest power transition, almost every
single time that the number two or the original candidate or some huge political struggle
will happen and someone will go down, whether it's . . . Ten years ago, the current president
Hu Jintao's term -- transition was actually exceptionally smooth. But now we see that
was only an exception. The fundamentally, inherently instability of such a regime in
terms of the higher power transition is being illustrated dramatically in the Internet age
by Mr. Bo Xilai's case. XIAO QIANG: . . . people will see that. MARGARET WARNER: And we're
just about out of time. XIAO QIANG: Go ahead. MARGARET WARNER: But, Richard McGregor, so
do you think there is a large -- is this exposing a larger split between real factions, or is
this just one rogue party guy who got out of step and he's being put down? RICHARD MCGREGOR:
No, I think that's the key point. We all -- China has been moving to institutionalizing how
to hand over power, which communist societies are very -- systems are very, very bad at.
They looked like they did it 10 years ago. They look like they're able to do it this
time. MARGARET WARNER: This fall. RICHARD MCGREGOR: This fall. But whether they can
is a really open question. It's also the question of whether something like this will make the
party close up and become less transparent than ever, or whether reformers, as we're
reporting tomorrow, want to sort of constitutionalize the system, make it more open, put up more
candidates for the jobs, and try and sort of make it more democratic, not in the U.S.
sense, of course, but generally. MARGARET WARNER: Well, it will be fascinating to watch.
Richard McGregor and Xiao Qiang, thank you both. XIAO QIANG: Thank you. h B: hHzL h B:
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country-region urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags place MARGARET WARNER: And for more on this
rapidly unfolding story, we turn to Richard McGregor, a longtime correspondent in Beijing
for The Financial Times and other papers, and author of "The Party: The Secret World
of China's Communist Rulers," and Xiao Qi Normal Microsoft Office Word MARGARET WARNER:
And for more on this rapidly unfolding story, we turn to Richard McGregor, a longtime correspondent
in Beijing for The Financial Times and other papers, and author of "The Party: The Secret
World of China's Communist Rulers," and Xiao Qi Title Microsoft Office Word Document MSWordDoc
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