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We are here at Menashi Somekh's house in Jerusalem. Today, what date in the month is it? Today is
the 23rd or 24th, Saturday.
so, pardon [me], we will start again and
Today is the 23rd. Today is the 23rd, yes.
Anyway, let us start again. let us continue
Anyway, let us start again. We start again? O.K.
We start again? O.K.
They started to have the parties at the family homes
[on] their festivities
and
it starts
that is with light stuff
With much noise
and women ulilating,
With light songs,
some clappings
and whoever likes to dance a bit, would also dance
and they would drink.
After that, the food arrives and so on.
Around ten or eleven, people, that is
start to leave, [Others] stay.
Some, a small number,
those who like to stay to listen [to]
MaqAms
they sit later with the Chalghi band, they make a circle,
a ring.
They sit and listen to the band till morning.
Till morning,
till morning.
till morning. Till morning, until around five,
Till morning, until around five,
when dawn breaks.
Till morning, dawn breaks. when dawn breaks.
Till morning, dawn breaks.
It is said: Dawn
Get up and pray, for dawn has appeared.
Anyhow.
You see them for example
if there are
genuine listeners
as you would say, people who are really keen to listen, sit down;
a proper gathering would take place
and at the same time
they would be given drinks
and they would be given
and they would be given Who? the hosts?
Who? the hosts?
The party hosts, of course, yes.
In general, after this,
at two or three [in the morning], people start to
be hungry, they [the hosts] would make them Kebab;
a known [popular] dish, they would bring
skewers of kebab and round flat bread.
This is the after-midnight meal.
They would sit till morning.
This is how it was.
Because
festivities did not take place
in a hall outside [the home]
neither in a club nor [in] a hotel.
One reason is O.K. so that they do not show off
not to be seen, that is,
they did not want to be conspicuous
especially in front of Muslims
and also because
their houses
that is the houses were spacious
and according to the size
everyone, according to the size of his house can invite
the people he wants
So there are two parties:
Those who stay [in the] early early
evening
to ten or eleven and then
they leave and the rest stay on,
listening to the Maqams
The gathering of the Maqams is [charachterised] by calm
and quiet, no women there,
the men on their own,
because the
Maqams are
a man's party.
The Maqam is for men: singing it are men, listening to it are men, it is specific to men.
Afterwards
years later, women came into it.
and [even] then, in a small part.
They came into it to sing or to listen?
To sing. To sing as well as.. this is it They came into it to sing or to listen?
To sing. To sing as well as.. this is it
Women took part because
it is difficult for women because they have got to have
a very strong voice to enable them
There are some Maqams which can be sung by women,
Other [Maqams], they cannot reach it [the scale]
We are talking in the thirties, this happened.?!
yes in the thirties,
fifties, thirties and forties.
Forties too.
Forties also, I remember it, Forties too.
Forties also, I remember it,
I was, I, once
there was a Henna [party] for my cousin,
I stayed with them till morning.
So that is [how] it was.
And the Chalghi
And the Chalghi Yes tell me about the Chalghi
Yes tell me about the Chalghi
On the [subject of the] band, you told me [they were] four
The Chalghi consist of four individuals.
The original [genuine] Chalghi
The original Chalghi [has] four individuals.
Santur and Kamana [players]
and Tambourine and drum
and these were enough.
Then they introduced to it
the Qanun (zither);
the Ud was added
Afterwards they started the,
all the ...
the band which played the Maqam
all of it with the newer instruments
Qanun, Ud and violin
and they even added a chello
That is new instruments were introduced
but
the taste was lost
the taste of the original Maqam
There are some who want only the original;
the Chalghi, the Santur and the..
and the Kamana.
This is because these instruments
the coconut-Kamana and the Santur
their equivalent are the violin;
the violin and the Qanun
The Qanun
has, that is the
the distance [of its scales]
the scale of play
that is, its musical scale
is much wider than the Santur.
That is, one can go up [in scale]
much higher.
and the violin
also has many more possibilities.
So these [musicians], in the year
in the year 1929
the one who
who read the Maqam was the Gubbanchi; this is the greatest
He wanted to go to Germany
to record [vinyl] records,
because in Baghdad there were..,
Recording companies used to come
in 1927, in 1928
but they did not have
that is from the technical side,
they did not have [the means to]
sit [and record] in a cellar or in a room.
When he wanted to record, that is, a [fair] quantity,
he had to take with him a musical band
and go to Berlin. He went, he went to Berlin.
And this [guy], if he takes these,
for instance the Chalghi group
these were, that is,
if you look at them, their appearances
their attire
was very primitive
and the people were illeterate, that is,
so how can he take these and bring them together in Europe with..
with...
He was embarrased, that is.
He said he could not take them in this condition.
and therefore
he made up a new band
with modern instruments
He took new instruments, Ud and violin and
a drum, I don't know what
But
no Santur and no Kamana
You follow?
They went to Berlin
in order not to take those [the Chalghi band] with him.
He said why should I be saddled with those? .
He was afraid that the Europeans would laugh at them,
bringing a stick [strapped to] a coconut
So, who played there?
Where?
Where? In Europe.
In Europe.
With him?
With him? Yes.
Yes.
Ezra Haron went Yes.
Ezra Haron went
Ezzuri
Yes, Ezzuri used to play the Ud
and also, with him, went
Qanun... someone was
someone called Abu-Ezzuri
and the Qanun, someone from the House of Bassoon
Yusef Bassoon with him.
Zarur, Zarur
Yes they were [many] who used to play.
He went to Berlin and recorded around thirty or forty records.
And he came back.
When they came in 1932
[In] 1932
there was a festival
of Arabic music.
An International festival in Cairo, international!
There were experts from
Germans, there were Orientalists
who made, that is, studies
about Arabic music.
A festival, in which all the Arab countries took part.
Iraq, when
they wanted to participate in the festival,
the government, Nuri Al Saeed used to,
he used to like,
he used to like music and Maqams
He said: If we are going
to participate in the festival,
we must show them the things
which are unique to Iraq;
which do not exist in other Arab countries.
Otherwise, it means there is no point
in going. That is,
[our delegation] will be singing ordinary songs.
For there are Egyptians and others, and Syrians
[who] can sing [better].
If we are to go,
Iraq must be represented by
a delegation who posess things the others don't have.
Unique.
So what is there that they don't have?
The Maqam exists only in Iraq
as far as other Arab countries are concerned.
So he told El-Gubbanchi: You are to take with you,
He told him there must be a band,
He told him you are to take a band of
of of Chalghi
that is Santur and Kamana;
otherwise if you take Qanun and that,
[these] instruments, they [already] have [got them over there].
The Qanun existed in Egypt before
and the violin existed before
and the Ud existed before.
He told him: you must take the strange [ones].
He [El Gubbanchi] replied: "But these [people] are an embarrassment, what..
they don't know how to dress
and those [people] in the festival
all have to dress formally, that is
a black suit,
and a bow tie,
a white shirt,
and a Sidara.
These [our people], all their life,
they wear this "charrawiya" (a small turban)
on their head
and a long robe
dirty, and half a sandal".
Yes, true, this was [their ] appearance.
So they were of a [social] level,
low.
So low.
So
he told him
He told him : There is no way out of it.
You find a solution.
So what did they do?
They called Ezzuri, Ezra Haron,
they told him: You will go with them.
He told them: The Ud is not part of the Chalgi, I play the Ud
He was told: we are not here on a question of Ud,
You, a question of,
you teaching them how to dress
and how they should appear when sitting in front of people.
This is your duty.
If you want to participate in playing, then participate.
So he said: [In that case], I will take Yusef Zarur with me,
[on the] Qanun
And so they went.
This is the first time that they went
that with the Chalghi, there was Ud
and Qanun
What happened with the Santur?
That is in addition to
Oh, in addition to the
In addition to the Santur and so on.
Did they take a [Kamana] Josa with them?
What?
What? Did they take a Josa with them?
Did they take a Josa with them?
Yes, yes. Did they take a Josa with them?
Yes, yes.
In addition to
the Kamana Josa and the Santur
and the Tambourine and Drum.
Ezzuri went [playing] the Ud
and Yusef Zarur on the Qanun
The head of the delegation
[was] the son of Pataw.
There was this Yusef Pataw
His father Hugi Pataw.
He was old of age, indeed
he died
three months afterwards.
It was he who should have been the head of the band,
but he was ill.
So he sent his son who was also
[of a high] standard.
That is, he played well.
He was the head of, the head of the group.
They went there and took first prize
They captivated [the audience].
For they were looking at
pieces of, a piece of wood and a stick
I have their recordings.
yes, they recorded all.
They recorded them on [vinyl] records
But it was rare. Afterwards, there was
a company in France, in Paris,
By agreement there was a copy of the recordings.
There was not in Baghdad,
[except in the possession of] a few, such as Al Suwaidi, Nuri Al-Saeed and I don't know who.
With the [1958] coup,
all were gone, they were lost.
You know, they were plundered of course.
The stuff that was in the [Radio] broadcast station
they were all thrown away.
On every coup,
they took [all the stuff in] the broadcast station and threw it in the river.
All the recordings
and the,
their archive.
The important [point]
is that it happened there [in Iraq].
Even King Fuad gave him,
gave them a prize
and rewarded this El-Gubbanchi.
They stayed there
Ahmad Shawqi was [then known as] the prince of poets.
They sang there.
He sang a song
from a poem
by a well known Iraqi poet.
His name was Habbubi el-Najafi
It says in it: "Oh Yusef of Beauty",
a reference to Joseph the Fair [of the Bible]
He called him afterwards and asked him: Whose poem is it?
He told him it is Habbubi the Najafi's,
our great poet.
He replied: I have not heard of him.
He told him: What? You are the prince of poets,
and this our greatest poet,
and you have not heard of him?
We have [in Iraq]
every young child knows who is the prince of ,
the prince of poets, Ahmad Shawqi.
He disgraced him.
This is how the event went.
Afterwards,
they returned.
When they returned, they came back via..
they passed by Jerusalem,
They performed in musical sessions in Jerusalem.
It appears
that in the period which they were in Jerusalem,
Ezzuri
learned a few things
because after he returned to Baghdad,
after one year,
he went out from Baghdad and came here to work
for the [radio] station which belonged
to the British.
In the station which belonged to the British [mandate], and after that,
in the state [of Israel]
he was the head of
the music section of Israel Radio.
That is concerning..
concerning him.
When they were in Egypt,
and [the band] took first prize,
the Al-Ahram correspondent came
to conduct an interview
with the head of the band, Yusef Pataw
He said: "Yusef Pataw,
You are the head of the band and you took a prize" and that,
What I want you to tell us what is
the state of affairs of the Art in Iraq".
This [man, Pataw] does not know how to speak.
He told him: "What art, what pot ash!,
we .."
[Mnashi to Eli] I will show you, it is written
in the book
Shmuel Moreh wrote it
in the book
of Abraham Ubadya
With Iraqi singing"
the introduction
was written by Shmuel Moreh
He ...he brings out this story.
He writes:
"After the winning by the Iraqi band,
of the first prize,
the Al-Ahram correspondent conducted
al interview for its art section
with the musician, Pataw.
The correspondent asked him:
Master Pataw,
[in Egyptian dialect] What is situation of the Art in Iraq?
Master Pataw was not competent in Standard Arabic.
or the Muslim dialect in Baghdad.
so he answered in the Jewish Arabic dialect saying:
What Art of cemetries [a derisery expression]
In Iraq,
[you think] there is Art?
We are simply invited
to play in weddings
and afterwards when they offer Mazza and they drink Arak,
and the drink goes to their head,
the knives start to play their part
and [also] the daggers.
We take our way
and hide in the toilets.
In God's trust (an affirmative phrase).
This is the beginning and end of the art in Iraq
The Al-Ahram correspondent did not understand
one word of what was said
by the famous correspondent ..
by the the famous musician
so when he asked him the meaning of his speech,
Pataw answered him, saying:
"But I am talking to you in Arabic.
What, you don't understand Arabic?"
Are you following?
So, it is like you said, he was illeterate.
Of course. They were all illeterate.
Yes, illeterate.
That is how they spoke.
That is, this Al-Ahram correspondent
You
[after all], it is a international interview, that is.
So he went there
They recorded music, recorded Maqams,
recorded songs, recorded this and that,
everyone played as he wished.
They played sample music of every instrument.
Afterwards, what, yes, yes, yes, very beautiful.
O.K., but the Kwaity [brothers] were not there.
Records.
No, in this...
in this year of thirty two,
In the festival?
in the festival, were there Saleh Le Kwaity and..
No, No, not the Kwaity
The Kwaity was in..
The Kwaity says that
he was supposed to go,
but at that time
he was ill and his father did not let him travel.
That is how he tells it.
But all of them, it is known that Ezra Haron went
But Ezra was [quite] a personality, that is
This is Ezra's.
This was the band
This is the situation of the
music and the Chalghi of the Baghdadis.
Afterwards, when,
when the TasqIt came to pass (mass exodus of Iraqi Jews)
You yourself know, that is, the Jews
used to monopolise the music in Baghdad.
Not because
they were
big musician and geniuses in this [profession],
but because in the 18th century,
there was a [Ottoman] governor
from the Ottomans
[who] came to Baghdad.
He was a radical Muslim.
According to the Islam [religion]
He said
It is not appropriate for Muslims
to play music.
They can recite Maqams,
but music, except
percussion instruments
that is Drum, Tambourine and Tabla
are permissible.
Why? because
these instruments,
these that are played, that is
The Tabla and Tambourine
and the Drum
were used
in religious rites.
So they are permissible
But Kamana and others [are] forbidden.
For this reason,
those who worked with
Muslims that is,
one was a Tambourine player and the other I don't know what.
Those Muslims, all used to play, [but] stopped.
So who took over from them?
Those who used to work with them took over.
That is, Jews
four, three or four families monopolised it
They refused to teach it to anyone.
Bassoon and Pataw
and Zarur. These three or four families.
They taught it only to their children.
Even the instruments, they made them themselves.
They did not get anyone to make it so that no one would learn to make it.
They refused to give the secret to anyone.
They came, the..
By the way, is it just in Baghdad or in Basra for example?
No, in all, in all of Iraq.
When the mass immigration happened,
it was realised that these (Jewish musicians) will depart
and we, our music, who is going to play [it] ?
Nuri Al-Sa'eed gave an order.
Two who played the Joza
and the Santur;
he delayed their travel.
Who are they?
Nuri Al-Sa'eed Who are they?
Nuri Al-Sa'eed
No, who are they who..?
There were two No, who are they who..?
There were two
I forget [their names], one ...
One was possibly Shummail
Saleh Shummail, and
their names do not come to my mind.
In any case they stayed [behind].
He got them to..
At first he got all, all
all the band
to record all the Maqams;
music only. without, without a reciter;
they were recorded at the radio station.
At that time, there were no recording machines.
[They were recorded] on what were called Vinyl records;
large, round records.
They were not very good, their records.
It was not very accurate.
But he got them to record them,
all the Maqams; he got them to play;
all the Maqams,
the music of the Maqams.
After that, he took these two,
he said to them: You do not emigrate until you teach two Muslims
to play on these instruments"
before he would let them emigrate.
So they chose two [Muslim musicians], one by the name Sha'oobi
and one by the name..
I forgot his name.
Anyhow, there were two:
one to play the Kamana
and the other to play the Santur.
They taught them to play. They used to
work together, that is, or
they were in the band reciting Maqam.
That is , they were no strangers to this.
They were the nearest two.
They took them [under their wing and] taught them
Once they learned, only then, [the two Jewish musician teachers] were allowed to travel.
After that, these [two Muslim musicians]
each of them formed a band
They started to teach
these instruments, teach them
in a technical manner, that is.
in modern ways.
Yes, at the Institute of fine Arts
[where] they had not taught these things.
They were incorporated in the Institute of fine Arts.
Today if
you observe, there are many graduates from the Institute of fine Arts
who play the Santur and Kamana
in an exellent way, not...
in a technical way, far better than before.
Why? Because those [musicians] have been tutored on the Western method.
according to
notations and all.
Today you have the band of Muhammad Gumar
with Farida
they are in Holland.
He plays with the Filharmonic [orchestra]
of Holland.
She [Farida] sang a Maqam in Duch.
There were Christian [bands].
They did play [then]
The Christians were higher class. They did play [then]
The Christians were higher class.
The Christians had
in Mosul
many musicians,
but
the Christians started with Arabic instruments,
that is, the violin and the Ud.
Eskander, the father of Afifa Eskander
and her husband.
Eskandar
There were many...
There was
someone who was the head of the Army musical band .
Yes.
Christians, yes the majority were Christians, and were [trained] in the Western method.
So the Maqams were not...
No, no, Christians did not work with Maqams. So the Maqams were not...
No, no, Christians did not work with Maqams.
They did not work with Maqams.
No, no, In the Chalgi there were no Christians.
not even singing [Maqam] songs.
and without songs even!`
In Maqams, you did not have a Christian reciting a Maqam.
No, the reader is normally a Muslim. He recited the Quran also.
No, there were Jews who.. No, the reader is normally a Muslim. He recited the Quran also.
No, there were Jews who..
Jews, there were Jews..
There were three or four Jews
who were considered...
as I still follow [their news]
they are considered
they are considered today as the founding stone
Heskel Qassab and Salim Shebba.
and even Felfel Gurgi
that is, here [in Israel], he , he is young.
They are esteemed
because they have perfected the Maqam
to a high degree. They are very appreciated.
In the RAI there are
electronic posts
Those who follow the classical music
of Arabic. There are a few posts.
The Iraqi section there,
I follow them there.
They do not care whether [the subscriber] is Jewish or not Jewish.
The important thing is
this music
is considered as the original (genuine) music.
For example, today if a new reader is reciting,
it is heard on the post: "why don't you go listen to Heskel Qassab performing this Maqam?
You are bringing me this [reader]?"
Even our Shbahoth are sung in Hebrew
They are also included
in their [posts].
[someone] would say: "But we do not underst the language".
He is answered: "You don't have to understand the language.
This music
is ours,
[it is] our music".
Somewhile ago,
there was an argument that
[by] someone, it seems he was either in London or another place,
he said: this music is Jewish.
There was a discussion on the subject whether there exists [any] Jewish music in the world
We said that
He said that
Jews existed wherever there was music, everywhere.
but they played the music, that is..
they were musicians [playing] the local music.
The Polish, even though a Jew,
nevertheless, he did not have a "Jewish" music.
He had the music of Poland.
The German, "German" music.
So the music is..
the majority, you cannot call it as music, music of the Jews.
For example, Saleh le Kwaity, Dahud..
Dahud Husni in Egypt [was] Jewish
but all his tunes are Egyptian.
So there is no
There are Jews who worked in music
Everyone in his [local] place
it was that they worked as musicians
but [there is] no "Jewish" music.
Yes, there was a big argument about this [subject].