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You know how painful it is to see that you no longer have basis for trust...?
in a group that you trusted in implicitely...?
That is very painful.
And what saddens me most is that loving men like you are being put in this position.
Do we not have freedom of speech?
It's really almost social suicide to ask these questions.
>> Micah: That's not what Peter's talking about. Peter wasn't talking about the Governing Body. He's talking about
Jesus teachings. What happens is, every organized - trying
to be Christian - religion, loses their focus. Happens every time.
>> J: But were not... >> Micah: They stop focusing on Jesus and
they start looking at their list of rules. Okay now. Can I do that? Let me ask the bishop.
Because I'm not... he didn't write a rule for this.
>> J: But were not these men part of the Governing Body that were being used at that time?
>> Micah: Hmm. If you show me evidence, I'll believe you. It's a great question.
>> J: [Laughs] >> R: What did you say again?
>> Micah: Were not Peter and all these men part of the governing body?
>> J: Were not the apostles...? >> Micah: Show me evidence.
>> R: I thought... this is scriptural. >> Micah: That's what I thought too!
>> R: Oh, you didn't find it? >> Micah: I looked. Please show me. Again,
you don't have to do it now, but - show me. Because I was very disheartened to find I
couldn't. I can't prove it from the Bible. That stinks. Because when you're on a Bible
study, you're supposed to be able to prove it from
the Bible, right? I hate being in that position - where they
ask me a question and I'm like, Well... can I get back
>> J: In the book of Acts, does it not say that the apostles and the older men of the
congregation, that when they had issues, to be determined, and decisions to make, that,
like what the decision about circumcision? >> Micah: I don't know. Does it? In Acts?
>> J: Who did they send - who made the decision regarding circumcision?
>> Micah: Right. Ok. >> J: It was the apostles and the older men...
rulings. >> Micah: But, here's my issue with that.
That meeting happened. That decision happened. But one meeting does not a governing body
make.
>> R: How many meetings would it take?
>> Micah: Well it would take more than one. >> R: One recorded one.
>> Micah: And certainly, the term "governing body" is like trying to look for the term
"trinity" in the Bible. Ya aint gon find it.
>> R: You didn't find "governing body"?
>> J: It's not in there. The term governing body. It's not in the Bible.
>> Micah: That's part of the problem. >> J: But
>> Micah: So now where looking - Is at least the pattern there? Please be there? I couldn't
find it. If you find it, let me know.
>> J: Of them making other decisions? >> Micah: No, just the pattern of it being
centralized authority. That rather than them answering to Jesus, as in Revelation chapters
1 through 3, where he directly talks to the congregations, now we have a mediator between
the mediator and men. So now we have Jesus as the mediator,
but before we get to him we gotta go through this mediator, the Governing Body.
If you can show me that pattern in scripture I'll be cool with it.
I can't find it.
>> J: Because that's because [chuckles]
Jesus is not going to come down directly and talk to you.
And say, "Hey. This is what's supposed to be done in the congregation."
>> Micah: Well, one thing is for sure. If you have all authority in heaven and earth
- no one can say what he will or will not do.
He might decide and surprise you one day. Fair enough? He might surprise us. He doesn't
let us know every detail of what he's gonna do.
So let's leave that open, as far as what Jesus might chose to do. He's in charge.
>> R: I missed your point. What was that point? >> Micah: Oh, just is there a pattern for
there being a mediator between us and Jesus? The Governing Body? You have to go through
them, you have to follow them? And that's how you follow Jesus? Cus I can't find it.
I can't even find the concept of the Governing Body in the scriptures.
>> R: So that's another question - in your myriads of questions.
>> Micah: Yea, but I thought that was a little too offensive - cus I'm writing it to the
Governing Body. It's almost like asking, who do you think you are? type thing. So I
tried to start light with them.
>> J: So what's the pattern... >> Micah: Yea, what's the Biblical pattern
that justifies the existence of a governing body? And certainly, it's current mode of
operation. Like, where is that in the Bible? That's my other favorite phrase right now.
"Where is that in the Bible?"
>> J: Okay. "What's the Biblical patten that justifies the governing body and..."
>> Micah: And the way it operates today? Because we know that those men in Brooklyn - what
is it - 9 now? 8 or 9? Give or take? They view themselves
as the only channel to Jesus Christ - and therefore, the only channel to Jehovah God.
Correct? >> R: The only channel...
>> Micah: Don't they say they're God's channel? He's not using any other channel?
>> R: Faithful and discreet slave... >> Micah: So, those 9 guys are the only way
you're gonna get to Jesus?
>> J: [growls] that doesn't... >> Micah: That's what I said. I was like [growl]
what?! >> J: It doesn't say that.
>> Micah: Exactly. And I hope they would never be so presumptuous to make that statement.
>> J: It says, um... let's see... Watchtower...
>> J:[inaudbile] "... giving direction ... elders provide" when they say "elder",
they're referring to "anointed" elders also. >> Micah: Of course right.
>> J: "elders provide [inaudible] and counsel from either the scriptures themselves,
or on the scriptural [inaudible] Their objective in providing such guidance
is not to dictate how their brothers should live their lives. Rather, it is to
give their fellow Christians scriptural guide lines to help
them make good decisions, .... They will thus be quick to offer assistance
if they percieve that a brother or sister is
about to take, or have already taken, a false step.
Are these not good reasons to be obedient to those who are taking the lead? [End Quote]
So it's with that motive that they act in cases to help those who may be taking a false
step.
>> Micah: I believe that is your, that is both of your motive.
Unfortunately, it's not true of all elders. >> J: They defend the flock by putting their
brothers on guard against any who might attempt to undermine
their faith. The apostle Peter warned that false prophets
and false teachers who would try to entice unsteady souls into
wrong doing. Based on 2 Pe 2: 1,14.
>> Micah: Yea. I like that statement. "Any who would undermine their faith." Because
that's the whole point. Faith in who? Who are we supposed to have faith in according
to the scriptures?
>> J: Faith in Jehovah and Jesus Christ. >> Micah: Right. So if anyone would undermine
that faith, then we need to watch out for that person or group.
I agree. >> J: That's who we put faith in. Our faith
is not in the Governing Body, our faith is in Christ Jesus.
>> Micah: Naw. That's good. because... you'd be disappointed.
>> J: Because we follow the guidance of the faithful slave, as long as they're teachings
are based upon Scripture.
>> Micah: I love that. "As long as". Cus that implied the obvious truth - we all know:
Obedience is conditional. You don't just obey because that person has that many stripes
>> J: Based on knowledge of, the teachings of Christ Jesus from Jehovah.
>> Micah: Right. So that's like another nice way to sum up my questions is -
my obedience is conditional. If you follow the Christ, I'll follow you.
If you imitate the Christ, I'll imitate you. But when I see diverging from Christ's path
- on these four points - Then my conscience will not allow me to follow
you. >> J: And that's everybody's choice.
>> Micah: That's right. >> J: That's a personal choice.
>> Micah: But here's the rub: It's not entirely a personal choice. We're not free to make
that choice. Because if I were to tell you - that I no
longer want to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses - I'd lose all my friends and family
So I'm a little bit coerced to stay in the organization. You can't call that free choice
when someone has your relatives hostage. People say, oh you can leave the congregation,
you can go to another church if you want. You're fee to go - there's no chains on you."
Uh, yea there are! There's no stronger chain then family love. And secondary to that, friends.
So, the fact that the Governing Body (GB) states that everyone's free to come and go
as they please, is another dishonest tactic. You lure people, but you don't tell them,
well your not really free to go, cus if you leave, you lose all your friends and family
that are in the organization.
Not cool.
>> J: Well - that's not totally true because everyone is taught that -
when they don't follow the laws and abide by the principles of God's Word and they don't
want to to conform to that - that's why when a person
is disfellowshipped - put out of the organization
it's because they refuse to conform to the teachings of God's Word.
>> Micah: Or... the teachings of the GB. Because if that was true then there wouldn't
be people classified as apostates for asking questions.
Cus it's not disobeying God to ask questions. It's not disobeying God to disagree with 9
men in New York. But people are kicked out, of their families
and friends groups, for disobeying this group of men.
That's a fact. Do you acknowledge that's a fact?
>> R: That there's people being disfellowshipped... >> Micah: For disagreeing with the GB (Governing
Body) of JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses)? >> R: For disagreeing with the GB?
>> Micah: Yes.
>> J: I don't really agree with that because- >> Micah: That's comforting. This is a safe
place. >> J: They are in violation of God's word
- it's teachings. Teachings of God's Word. >> Micah: Right, but see, what happens is
- and I'm not comparing them to Satan the Devil,
I'm just saying - This could sound wierd but - even Satan could
quote scriptures to make it sound scriptural. So just because you say - it's scriptural
reasons why he got disfellowshipped - that doesn't mean it was a scriptural reason.
>> J: Well okay - >> Micah: Cus we all know there's cases of
people being disfellowshipped wrongfully. >> J: What are basis for disfellowshipping?
When a person decides to turn away from the things that they have learned from -
the things that they have learned to be the truth - in walking the opposite direction,
then that's viewed as apostasy.
>> Micah: Right. But that's the problem. Because not everyone who changes their beliefs, is
rejecting what is good and right is God's eyes.
See the assumption is: If you reject the GB, you're rejecting Jesus.
Is that not the assumption? Or can you reject the GB and still be friends with Jesus?
Is that possible?
>> J: I don't feel it's possible, cus I believe that the GB is the channel Jesus is using
today. I'm convinced of that.
>> Micah: Right. Right... You believe it. I don't have any evidence. So how could I
believe it?
>> R: So then Micah, I mean, in a nutshell. >> Micah: In a nutshell.
>> R: This doesn't look good - when it comes to you - not only on these questions -
I don't believe just answering these questions are gonna make you go- Oh, yes...
>> Micah: I don't know. I can't foretell the future.
>> R: Well I say that because there's some pretty heavy-duty questions.
It seems like those questions keep moving into other questions.
[yuk yuk] >> Micah: There's a whole Role-dex. I don't
think you want the whole thing. >> R: Yea volumes.
>> Micah: Yea You don't wanna know. That's why we do little spoons. [Pantomiming
feeling a baby] There you go. >> R: So I'm sure you've got this second letter
on- >> Micah: It's ready to go. It's already in
the chamber.
[yuk yuk]
Because it is my responsibility to make sure I'm serving God the right way. It's irresponsible
of me to ignore this, and just pretend that everything's "hunky-dorey" [healthy]
What's sad is that I could lose all my friends and family for doing so.
[New Tactic] >> J: Let me ask you this- Because of how
those brothers dealt with you there, do you feel, have bitter feelings toward them?
>> Micah: No. I have pity for them. Pity. Because, as we all know, Jesus is the judge.
And he's coming for blood. So I pity them. Cus unless they start to treat God's sheep
with tender care, we already know what the scripture says is gonna happen.
I don't have any bitter feeling for them. I just don't want to be next to them on Armageddon.
>> J: [inaudible] >> Micah: Plus, I'm sure that they're sincere.
I'm sure that they're not intending to do any harm.
But WOW. You could have the best - you can have "zeal for God, but not according
to accurate knowledge". [Romans 1:2]
[Dead Silence]
>> R: What do you think of disfellowshipping Micah?
>> Micah: I think it's over-used. And when it's mis-applied,
when you're not disfellowshipping someone who is, like Paul was talking about,
parading his step-mom through the hall. Hey, I'm dating my step-mom now.
No, that's obvious. Get out of here. You're an embarrassment to the name of Christ. Disfellowship
that guy. But when you're talking about people who, again, have questions - who disagree
it's being over-used. It's being used to - instead of seeking out that 1 sheep out of 99,
it's being used to run that sheep out of town. That's exactly the opposite of what Jesus
instructed us to do. So yea, it's a good policy when it's lovingly
applied.
>> R: So you believe that's it's a scriptural policy.
>> Micah: Absolutely, I mean, I can't imagine, even though Jesus didn't say anything about
disfellowshipping (DFing) which is an argument a lot of people make
for it shouldn't exist at all. But you think Jesus was gonna sit there and
have a meal with a *** who was gonna go and *** someone that same
week? No. Course not. It's common sense stuff we're talking about.
Because people individually shun individuals they don't wanna be around.
But what's happening here is an organizational shunning. Where you shun someone because a
vague announcement has been made about them. That's dangerous. That's not in the scriptures.
People knew why people were dangerous to be around. Not a vague announcement.
Oh, he's apostate now. Oh, he's no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. That's not Biblical.
[Changing the subject]
>> R: So you've really gone through every nook and cranny of Jehovah's organization.
>> Micah: I have to man. I have to. >> R: Or, of Jehovah's Witnesses.
>> Micah: Not every. I'm sure there's some stone I've left unturned. But it's an on going
process. >> R: Yea. I mean that's your goal.
>> Micah: That's my goal - is to find the truth. Where ever it might be.
>> R: It doesn't look good for Jehovah's Witnesses. >> Micah: It's looks very sketchy right now.
Very sketchy.
>> J: Jude 17-23 [Skip the Reading] So, part of our responsibilities as elders
is to try to reach out to those having doubts. To try to help them to come to their senses
regarding some of the things that they believe. Obivously some in the congregation at that
time, felt that they were being spiritual, but they
were not. They had beliefs that were not in harmony
with the teachings of Christ. And so the counsel to the older men
in the congregation was to show mercy toward them. To try to help them. *** them out
of the fire. Cus they were heading down a wrong path. Again,
that's our responsibility as older men - is try to help those ones the best way that we
can. Some we can help, some we can't. We try to
help all of 'em but, you know, that's not always the case.
Some times there's some that have already made up their minds, what they want to do.
And once a person make up their mind to do something, it had to run it's course. No human
can make another human do what they don't want to do.
>> Micah: Unless they have a gun, or kidnap their children.
>> J: Right. Unless they do it forceably. Threaten them. Unless they're coerced.
>> Micah: Violence does solve some problems. Just ask Armageddon.
>> J: Followers of Christ don't use those tactics.
>> Micah: Right.
>> R: So what do you think of the scripture here in Jude 17?
>> Micah: It's a beautiful scripture. >> R: Very nice.
>> J: You think that's the correct application of that scripture?
>> Micah: I wish all the bodies of elders would apply that scripture.
But unfortunately, it's permissible for them to follow procedure,
rather than that verse you just read me.
Because it's procedural for them. They can actually judge whether it's doubts or - hmm.
sounds more like apostasy. And because that's in their hands, the elders,
since they collectively can say, you know what?
We were all there. We all saw the apostasy. He said they were questions, but we think
it's apostasy. And they actually have the power, and the
right procedurally, according to their instructions, as I understand them,
to say, NOPE, that's apostasy. Get out of our face.
>> R: So let me ask you, here in the 1st century, it says in 19... ridiculers [inaudible]
"These are the ones who cause divisions". Ones that cause divisions, aren't they ones
that have questions?
>> Micah: They may be. Or they may be like Satan the Devil in the book of Job. Oh, I've
been roaming about in the earth, walking about in it. Doing my thang. What?
That's one causing divisions. >> R: But back then, you don't think they
could have applied it to someone going, Hey, you know what? why? What are they talking
about? It should be this way. In other words, this is my opinion -
>> Micah: That's could definitely be someone whose real motive is not to get an answer,
but to make you follow them. Like I have a better way, follow me.
That's possible. But now we're getting into motives.
>> R: But ultimately that's the end result of the questions, right?
>> Micah: It could be. >> R: I mean it could have began with questions.
>> Micah: But certainly, Jesus would never outlaw questions.
He said keep on asking, keep on knocking. So this is not an injunction against questions.
>> J: Yea but at some point, if the elders discern that it's
causing divisions in the congregation then they have to act -
>> Micah: Yea but unfortunately if elders start, well if elders continue - it's already
been going on - punishing people for asking questions - you're crushing
>> J: But that's not what I'm saying. Not punishing people for asking questions.
>> Micah: But you just said that the questions could lead to something else, right?
>> J: If it leads to something concrete, to where divisions are being caused-
>> Micah: But here's the thing: >> J: The cause of putting doubts in others,
or if you know for a certainty that they're trying to get these ones to follow them.
To follow their teachings.
>> R: Yea, when do these scriptures apply to our time, to us today? At what point are
we able to say, well yea, I can use this in this instance?
>> Micah: What makes it so convenient is Christianity means followers of Christ. So if you're follow
this scripture to the point where it diverts from Christ's footsteps, you're wrong.
Jesus welcomed any and all questions. >> R: so just like they were in the 1st century
wrong then. >> Micah: For what?
>> R: ...diverted from the teachings >> Micah: They had no problem with questions.They
had a problem with those "causing divisions, animalistic men, not having spirituality."
We're not talking about questions here. We're talking about con-artists.
>> R: Ya think? >> Micah: That's what it's saying here.
>> J: Yea but "those who cause divisions". I could grab a group of 10 people and say,
you know what? I don't believe this. You know what he's telling
you, that's not the truth. I see it this way? Am I not causing divisions?
>> Micah: Yea. If you're living in Eastern Germany in the 80s, yea, you're a seditionist.
How dare you question the government? But Christianity is not a facist dictatorship.
Jehovah accepts any and all questioners. Even Satan the Devil was allowed to present
his bogus questions. Why does Job serve you? Isn't it because you
put a hedge about him? But He heard him out still. So the pattern
we're following is Jehovah and Jesus.
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