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sets salam the solid supplies are welcome to the program osha gray
davidson he is the author of clean break
the story of germany's energy transformation and what americans can
learn for from that and he is also the uh... publisher
the phoenix suns dot com welcome to the program asha
damn glad to be here
scl
with uh...
the story of germany's
and transformation in
in two thousand
now we're talking twelve years ago
uh... six percent of germany's energy came from renewable sources
what what has happened since that
well what happened as today there are twenty six percent
so they went from the twenty six percent renewable in tough
twelve years
which is
more than what their target work
they've been ahead of their target all the way and now
so much so that in twenty twenty
they were supposed to be
big planned on being at thirty percent and now they've moved up to thirty five
percent
so they're well underway
*** so this started essentially with uh... uh...
uh... well had a rough it started with a piece of legislation but that was
the uh...
i guess the
did the route dekat
analysts for this transformation in germany
what is the number of ways you can look at it meant certainly one because if you
look at the legislative history
go back to two thousand and two pats wendy renewable energy act
was passed
if you look a bit deeper into what created that because that to happen it
with a citizen's movement
that started
in either that you can't go back for divert nineteen eighty four
after chernobyl
there was a movement of people and small villages all throughout
germany and in cities
uh... people who didn't want the rest anymore of nuclear power
because after chernobyl when radio activity fell
across germany
people just didn't want to do it at the the realize it was too big a bereft for
them
and
well just started
putting up renewable power
from twelve
and
uh... there were a number of battle than the chronicle some of that in the book
the boat but eventually happened is
politicians
gave the people what they wanted
which was i think that it nuclear power of angeli
and
a op program of feeding character with supporting
renewable energy and that's really made a huge difference
yes explain to us what car speeding in tariffs
well without getting
into too many details here
uh...
essentially
uh... although they've been called subsidies they're not need uh...
they're not paid for by the government
what happened to is if you want but solar panels on your roof you just bill
you put solar panels on your roof
and then
whatever here for a little but you do it this year say
and
you'll be guaranteed for the next twenty years
a price
above-market
the market right now
in payment
for every white that you pretty that you stand on to the correct
so that's good for twenty years which gave the business community in everybody
and everybody canal becoming utility in germany
that gave them the stability that they needed
to be able to figure out if this is cost effective
and
by doing that
in nature that everybody had
given the game
and that kind of
uh... enticement
work to the point where now
sixty five percent
appall renewable energy in germany is generated by
individuals co-op servers small groups of investors
and how do they provide mean
and how do they provide that uh... that uh... that price pointer i mean
right we're going to get the money yeah
that it people repairs indicom
on their utility bill it spread throughout germany
regular ratepayers
payers certain amount
to make this transition to renewable energy every year and it had had broad
support throughout germany
for a number of years
one problem with and that there are a lot of problems
see this transition that's not an easy thing to do
but they're doing it
one problem is that
certain groups
are exempted from paying that taxes chain are not taxed at that amounts of
other people normal rate payers in small businesses
have to pay even more
and that's where it it becomes a contentious
issue now
so many
a highly
energy high electricity users
uh... large corporations
large when manufacturers
don't have to pay anything
into this renewable energy
uh...
in that plan
they're getting the another benefit from it
the amount of renewables that entered integrated the electricity the tender
spread
has pushed down the price uh... the wholesale price
electricity
up by about eighty percent
ended now is that
the pushing down of the price of
of electricity that
that savings
uh... does that in some way offset that free that day
the sort of uh...
normal consumer pays in summer through nixon victim iraqi it certainly does
some extent
but this is a long term project
one thing that people fail to take into account it's very different when you
build
a dom
a nuclear plant
oracle generated
electricity
uh... but when you do that
once you pay back their initial investment you still have to pay for
fuel
forever and then prices going up for coal
for uh... for natural gas in germany in particular gone down the u_s_
renewable
there's no cost involved
fourth day actual
the renewable energy source
it we end
sunshine it's hydropower
it kept it
it's going to keep ur and cheaper
also that
that uh...
subsidy
or charge here i am calling it a subsidy to help
but that renewable energy surcharge that's put on a bill
that goes down the amount that you
receive every year for putting
uh... folder on your roof or whatever
that amount
goes down every year
which does to think they can get people too
investors
soon as possible and putting up solar panels are
joining together with friends to invest in a wind farm
and it also eventually it it lowered the price for the electricity an enemy goes
down but it still goes down in a predictable
we know exactly what is going to be and twenty fifteen we know
was gonna be in twenty seventeen x center
this certainly a lot more
there's two more certainty involved when you're dealing with renewables because
you don't have
source for the energy
you don't have that prices going up
whereas with cole
with oil with ductile cast
there's really no way to know exactly what's going to happen and that's what
we've had oil shock
um... in the past uh...
as resources dwindle
begets more expense of the expensive to get them out of the ground
uh... and that doesn't take into account anne the health fair
or climate change affects
but you think
the traditional sources of cuba fossil fuels
where there are many both of those a fab
obviously with women for
now the
renewable energy act uh...
or eighty percent renewable power by twenty fifty eight twenty fifty in
germany did do they seem like they're on their goal and i would imagine at one
point it becomes
each percentage point in which you are
increasing the amount of renewable energy
a little bit less easy in a
tower at one point it becomes harder to write their transition but what would
you give me a sense of
of what that subject re looks like
low right now they're still eating dirt directory of what they had planned
but you're right
once you get past they forty percent
it's going to get a lot tougher
uh... for one thing you're going to need
storage
company with the store
the electricity generated by renewable but you don't need at this point
went to get up to
forty percent
uh... engineers in germany had that that doctrinal really need to have uh...
storage
and there are other solutions to it
and germany's pursuing them of
having a european white grit
where elected and scandinavia
with uh...
the grid itself
that crosses national boundaries
with ease and and for germany have to work on that
and that's about the big that's a tall order but um...
the germans i talked to
uh... most of them are pretty certain that they can't do this
in part because they were told
when they first wanted to do the
make this renewable energy transition
the a lot of people germany's engineers there said no you can't
you can't do that because
after you get past
four percent
the grade won't be able to handle it
well now there are twenty six percent and they're handling it today they feel
confident that they can't continue to meet the challenges
and stay on target meet that goal
what does that actually porsche
they can do better than eighty percent
what what is it
hot at forty percent uh... went to get there that you need to start to store it
is because the amount of energy that's being put out there
or is not the
in the moment at that point
exactly but my understanding of it
at forty percent because such a significant
portion of the grade
depended on it
uni
there are times that
you're predicting more electricity than is being used in right now that that
have happened um...
a couple of afew days this past summer
that they actually had more renewable energy than a knew what to do with uh...
the at the fella paddle often some cases they believe their simply for preachy
utilities had a fellow there
excess capacity
other country
because you have an efficient way of storing it for later essentially
waited effect batteries are expensive
they do have some really
innovative idea of the papers
doing as well as cheaper batteries and terminate like uh... gravity fed systems
where you
he's excess power during the date pomp
autre up
two large holding ponds or lake
and then when you need it more later buchanan haven't come down and power
uh... turbines
there are a number of possibilities of what to do but uh...
syllabi
and you know that they've done what was considered impossible already
the whether they'll be able to continue to do that
uh...
certainly looks like they'll be able to
but that it's not picture and if not be easy
but um...
this there certainly did much better job than we are
so amid aside from the political
questioned and which i want to get to in terms of all
many of their any lessons there for the united states and
but but in terms of the way
that energy is delivered
it seems that the
primary difference was
having a guess um...
energy is sort of like a distributed system where where where you have
bunch of the individual
energy producers as opposed
then just sort of
mac thereof
lynette usage on their meter could actually in some ways perhaps profit
from
absolutely n
a lot of the people eg
i talked to the expert in germany for three weeks traveling there sing project
and interviewing people
a lot of them made that point that problem
that the keeping with the energy revolution or the german work for is
energy than that
the key to that if having
defense allies
distributed power
that key for a number of reasons and one is
have the benefit crewing
across the board
two people answer you u
it at it pushes that entrepreneurial
uh... plant the people can
take advantage of that they want it
the they can not
they can benefit from it but not that the feel-good
program of
having a utility put-up solar panels and you know that ok tho
four some flight difference employment
in treatment permission to be made
people also
actually make money
doing this in germany
because the benefits are white spread and that
that entirely due
to having uh... feet in paris
where
you about everybody become
uh... utility instead of having a monopoly just a few
arts successfully these things
to the united states uh... for a moment okay so the obviously
it seems to me
um... obstacle
for me because from uh... from the physics standpoint
there if you do it doesn't appeared that there is anything
the nature of
of germany has you know uh... physically
we would have to change much to bring this program to the united states and it
is a road may be more density i don't know what what what is there any
difference in terms of like
the actual sod
right i give you a stanley their worst there are differences
they can be met according to the national renewable energy laboratory big
government
laboratory that deals with renewable power in the united state they
produced a study that found that by the year twenty fifty
can get there's new physical reason why we can't can get eighty percent of our
power from the new abortion and
what do you know that exactly would germany's planet
so it would
they found that would work here and that doesn't mean that there aren't
obstacles in some of the month of payment gia buffets and some of them are
different
yeah uh... it it can be done physically according to them
isn't what would be
ease some of the physical obstacles that we would face that uh... germany didn't
and i would imagine
if we look at it as a distributed system it would be in
i mean that would mitigate a lot of the sort of physical issues yes and and i
imagine in the germany has
uh... or less on then i would think i would imagine the average place in the
united states and i think that they have the amount of son that
is it too
there could be hit by rocket alaska i mean so
um...
what what type of physical in minutes with
be subject to that the germans uh...
i can't speak to that
um...
with any expertise
i can't wait to what i know a bit is
what i've heard mostly is just that the distances involved
are still large
and that with the giants
it's it very difficult to get enough
renewable power
to power at founder moral people living in rural areas and small towns in
germany
to the u_s_ would
more problems with that
uh... also with building a upgrade which we need to do anyway because ours is all
done decrepit
uh...
but the water
again they get back to cap will cost another this is really
physical hurdle
all of them get back to
the amount of money that needs to be spent
and the political will to do it and that's where
there is the difference between him and faith in german they're willing to pay
for this political will to do it and let's talk about the political
opposition to it because i would
had june that germany
did not have the sort of institutional opposition
allowing individual germans to have more control
all over their energy production then we see in this country because we have
uh... fossil fuel interests huge call
all interests he
nuclear interests
um...
it's it seems to me that
that type of obstacle
which germany didn't facing the same way that we did but maybe i'm wrong tell me
elliptical degree question uh...
i got next answers on that
uh... some of the expert like doctor in germany said what look we face tough and
problems that you did
we had an enormous nuclear complex fear of of industry
in and that certainly is true
in germany
inferior early
people started getting on board with this in part because
it grew without of
optician killing nuclear power
so strong
in germany
people wanted
and nuclear power
and
d
anti-nuclear bold in germany look granted you know we can't just keno
people can't just ignore defend
we have to find
away thing you have to something
kit getting rid of nuclear power deputies something else and their
realized pat
renewable power will be able to have
is a way to close down
unfair that the noble powers which closed on nuclear power
that applied from all the other benefits of climate change and income
at no
spread out for small towns in every and germany
um...
that's what this one pet
how big was uh...
in germany at that time when their movement started in the matter is how
much uh... did germany gadgets was it was a powered by by nukes
idly you're on the but i think is about
thirty percent
that time
um...
and now it down
yeah i think it's eighteen percent
something like that that they've lowered it
so it was a significant share
and they did face
uh... opposition i did talk to other people think that
they believe that the whole
difference between the united they
and germ eight
almost all of it can be attributed do what you're talking about
the political pinpoint in the united paper the opponent
ought to have to remember that they have a different system of government there
with that
that the parliamentary system
so that a lot of
more grouped of people
a multiparty system
kitty it's harder to capture
politicians
in germany than in the united they
with uh...
campaign contributions by large corporations
you know i i think there's a lot of folks substance and that abut
i really don't know which
admitted this probably truth in in both of those interpretations of what the
reason is that we haven't been able to do it here politically speaking were
there any particular parties that down
e in that makes that uh...
uh... were key i mean uh...
uh... with the greens big game
gained in pushing that legislation in-game building the coalition's
necessary i'm just curious from apple impact
either i don't really isn't
called the
the green red coalition the green party
and the social democrat
and uh...
c formed a coalition government
and were in charge
of the government for a couple years in the early two thousand
it'd just be detected
that was one of the things that
by the burned a lot about what what is there and before i left that
the party system it is
but different they reviewed the feeding you
which is the center right
leading coalition partner germany that until a miracle
is the head of the teamster
chancellor of germany
there
if she were in the u_s_ she would probably be
uh... on the political spectrum she probably fall
indeed moderate republican
a five
uh... which we have almost none of the united failure status of the temporary
the right wing of the democratic party
but probably have but did we go
now
she had has
but not implemented the energy than the efficiently
uh... earlier party
coalition ruling coalition
did and
a lot of the problems that cropped up
some people in germany expert
label that's because you have people
org a hundred percent behind us
corded governing coalition
that i think that is the a big factor
the e will require the same degree uh...
of uh... political will throughout the process so
so aunty
boat with the lessons that you have learned from
uh... studying how this happened in germany
what are some of the keys for this to happen in the united states 'cause it
seems to me
the vb
to is
get to a point where
we we have the ability particularly i would imagine indians
there are certain areas where are where it's it's it's far more efficient
and uh... far more crucial
decentralize
essentially uh...
uh... power
i don't know power stations power-up plants if you will and by that i mean
you know maybe a couple panels for neighborhood or something
it expanded the institute for local self reliant
and nam in minnesota the study a few years ago
that found that
expect with every state but maybe three or four
could be
uh...
treat used this distributed model
to get all of their electricity
it would
they'd use different technologies
different areas obviously you know i work day or two get i don't know a third
something like that
of their electricity from wind power
and down here in arizona where i live
uh... we could be getting
a huge amount from fillers and work well not really taking advantage of that
although the growth has been
quite exceptional here and there is not in the past years though
that model
can mostly worked throughout the united state but the key is tonight but because
of the main factor that year
looking for in talking about is that
in germany
it started from the bottom up
he didn't wait for politicians did do this renewable energy act it with
politicians reacting
group
and individuals
throughout the country
or demanding
that who they have this which they didn't wanna live in fear of nuclear
power anymore they also didn't want it paid the uh... we like the manaf awfully
status
that that nuclear power plant at amoco plant
expert after united staying
we can talk about politicians being bought out
and uh... you know i brought that up myself
really the the
crucial point is
there have to be further from movement
thankfully there already is
there people around the country who or
uh... but
building renewables for creating programs and that this difficult to do
but there are their feet in terror better
at some of the fame
qualities
uh... and are somewhat different
that would be it is starting in the united pasted into reported not
adequately i don't think
were you know a decade or more behind where germany was
and
there's a lot that could be done through legislation at the state and the federal
level
to make this transition
you know do we
their are we willing to do that are our people willing to do that
i mean it seems that we
uh... unfortunately don't
have that sort of
the that inciting event
of archer noble because
it to the extent that
and when you're talking about burning fossil fuels it is a deal
the or at least appears to be
a less immediate threat to our health and safety in the idea of radioactive
uh...
uh... radioactivity showering upon us i would imagine on some level
that certainly true and i i would hope we wouldn't need something like that to
happen here
um... to get us to change but
but we already
we have climate change
that increasing the c-level shearer leading to flooding uh... trout neither
there are tremendous costs already
people have done a uh... opponent of renewable energy have done a pretty good
job of
saying that there is no a problem with climate change
wheels up thirteen thousand people a year die in the united states
prematurely from
breathing pollutants from coal-fired electrical plant
which is just
i guess a theme that we that that's an acceptable price
but we don't need that
and
i think that there's a growing consensus now with climate change after standing
in some other things and uh...
the organizing around the keystone excel pipeline from canada for the shell oil
no we were we this is a bigger big threat climate change is a huge threat
and
we need to find an alternative and we do have those alternative
and it's a matter of implementing programs
that will allow people to take advantage of them you mentioned that uh...
did not very good reporting on
uh... what's been happening in terms of distributed power in this country
uh...
if there was one or two things that we stick a look at that ah...
uh... my audience wants to uh... dig into this further would want to take a
look at what would you recommend
uh... i would actually recommend
going to look at people who are expert in that area
i'm researching that now for a couple second book but looking at it
their people who've been doing that'll long and
the institute for local self reliant
uh... they have a website john farrell is there
research director i believe
and they have
a number of studies out those some
you can look at polled blight she alright kiki
online
uh... he's done from that these people didn't proponent in particular
uh...
and following
the publisher for much for my book
that sent me to germany is inside climate needed
and their online andy they do a good job of reporting on these things
i'd recommend a great well the uh... book is clean break it is available for
other ways
buck on nine amazon
uh... apec is the story of germany's energy transformation and what americans
can learn from it
i was a great davidson thanks so much for joining us