Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
I really encourage them--
Like, I want to walk
into the room and go,
"holy [bleep].
Pull it back, man.
"
You know what I mean?
"That's even too much for me.
"
It usually goes the other way.
I-- Someone's got to die,
and I'm racking my Catholic school,
Pollyanna brain
for, like,
the darkest thing I can think of,
and Kurt thinks about it and says,
"that's good.
Or"
And then it's something
that I go home
and have nightmares about.
"Aghh!"
You know?
Tonight on The Writers' Room
Sons of Anarchy has been called
one of the best TV shows
in our current golden age,
and the most overlooked drama
since The Shield.
This story of
an outlaw motorcycle gang
with dysfunctional
family values
has hit a nerve with fans
drawn into its violent world.
Going into its seventh
and final season,
this story of
an outlaw motorcycle club
is one of the most talked about
shows on television.
Sons of Anarchy
is about a biker club,
but it's so much more.
They run drugs.
They run guns.
They shoot people.
There's no way to count
how many murders
there are in this show
because in some scenes they kill
The head of the household
is Gemma
with her husband, Clay,
and their son, Jax.
It's really a Shakespearean
tragedy with bikers.
Every episode I watch,
I got everything I wanted to get,
and I'm so stoked
for the next episode.
They have me ready.
So Kurt Sutter's got me.
Sons of Anarchy
right now on The Writers' Room.
Outrageous success,
horrible mistakes,
last-minute changes.
The creators of today's
most groundbreaking TV shows
tell all in the place
where it all starts
Joining me in
The Writers' Room,
Sons of Anarchy creator
and showrunner, Kurt Sutter
Golden Globe award winner
for her role
of biker matriarch Gemma,
Katey Sagal
Writer, co-executive producer,
Charles Murray
And writer, co-executive producer,
Mike Daniels.
I want to go to the beginning
because I always love
the sort of inspiration
behind some of these
great TV shows.
So take me to the moment
where you decided
to tackle this world.
I was finishing up
on The Shield.
I had one more season,
and I was trying to figure out,
you know, what I wanted to do.
And I'm at a meeting with
two of the executive producers
on the show,
John Linson and Art Linson.
John was so immersed
in this subculture
and knew that the characters
and the stories and the world
was so visual that this
would make a great TV show.
And this was the hook for me,
is that most of these guys
came back from World War II,
war heroes,
guys who were essentially
adrenaline junkies,
they tend to sort of--
branched off
and created their own
little fringe subculture.
But then in a very short period of time,
like, 12 to 15 years,
they became what the federal
government would categorize
as an organized
crime syndicate.
So, to me,
that arch was really epic.
Yeah.
You know, like,
how did that happen?
And looking back now,
what do you think--
We see the fans talk about it.
What do you think struck
a nerve with this show?
It allows you to tell
male relationship stories.
Yeah, that's so true.
And so the idea that you
have people watching a show
where men are hugging each other
and saying, "I love you,"
and saying,
"I'll sacrifice for you"
Yes.
As a guy, there's a wish
fulfillment that comes in like,
"I wish I had
those male relationships.
"
I take pride in the fact
that I had more men kissing men
than any other show on TV.
[Laughter]
Good for you.
[Laughter]
That's fantastic.
I think at its core,
it's a family drama.
Yeah.
And that, you know,
what you're seeing is a subculture
that we're not
really familiar with,
but they have the same
situations that you would find
- in any family.
- Yeah.
So in families,
we are not always honest
- Yeah.
- And we always have secrets,
yet they are bonded.
- You know, they all
- Yeah.
They-- They stay together.
And maybe on some, you know,
subconscious level
that's one of the things
people respond to,
is that we all do
not the most admirable things
even to our family members,
but we love them.
In a sense, you found a world
where people fantasize
about being a badass.
I mean, I-- You--
They have to be.
- Don't you think?
- Yeah.
But what's
more interesting--
Or equally as interesting
is not only do they fantasize,
but there's so much
about the characters
that they recognize from--
with people around them.
Mm-hmm.
Take me into
the writing process,
when you attack the seasons.
You go from season to seasons
and you go into
that writers' room,
what's the first step?
Kurt comes in,
weight of the world on his shoulders,
you know?
I make fun of myself.
He laughs at me, not with me.
[Laughter]
The mood lifts a little bit,
you know,
and he tells us
where he wants to go.
It's not even really
a blueprint.
It's like--
It's like mile markers, you know?
I know I want to kind of
do these things and get--
And head in that direction,
and I've realized that the
looser I hang on to those ideas,
- the better the season is.
- Yeah.
For me,
the process really works well,
is I go in,
in the beginning of that,
and then I'll plug in
throughout the course of the day
and kind of steer it,
and I'll say,
"that doesn't work.
I don't want to do that.
"
But I find that the energy
of allowing
these guys ownership
in story and in the show
- just makes it a better show.
- Yeah.
So what's the most
interesting and unexpected way
to get from point "a"
to point "b" in that--
In any situation?
So I really encourage them--
Like, I want to walk
into the room and go,
"holy [bleep].
Pull it back, man.
"
Do you know what I mean?
- "That's even too much for me.
"
- Yeah.
- So
- That's a good meter.
- I'd say usually--
- That's a good meter.
- "Too much for Kurt.
"
- It usually goes the other way.
I-- Someone's got to die,
and I'm racking my Catholic school,
Pollyanna brain
for, like, the darkest thing
I can think of, you know?
And then I throw that out,
and Kurt thinks about it and says,
"that's good.
Or"
And then it's something
that I go home
and have nightmares about.
"Aghh!"
You know?
I'd say that's
part of the theater
of being in this room,
you know?
'Cause we come in last year,
and he'll come in and
sit and down and he'll say,
"so I'm thinking about
doing a school shooting.
"
And you're like,
"huh? What?"
[Laughter]
Yes, yes, okay.
You know,
and so it's like he comes, you know,
ready to shake the trees.
It's very interesting 'cause I think,
as a storyteller,
I'm much more of a provocateur,
you know what I mean?
Like, I enjoy,
like, setting the fire
and watching
and seeing what happens.
If you strip this all down,
it's really about my fascination
with human behavior.
So obviously you guys
have a relationship,
as husband and wife.
And did you write Gemma
with Katey in mind?
I did.
I always say that
she influenced the role
- Phew, thank God.
- And then when people--
What made you fear, Katey?
Did you think he was gonna say
something else?
You know, it's an awesome,
rare situation
that this really brilliant--
He is my husband,
but he's brilliant--
Writer says, "oh, by the way,
I'm gonna write you a part,"
so I was right away thrilled.
He said to me, "you know, she is--
She has intense loyalty.
- She is a fierce mother.
"
- Mm-hmm.
Which I tend to think
my own personal experience
sort of inspired that.
I don't carry a gun when
I drop them off at school
Okay, good.
But, you know, that's sort of--
That's creative license.
[Laughter]
Right, honey?
Well, what is that--
What is that--
I love you look to him like,
"please say that's not true.
"
[Laughs]
What does that energy
look like in that subculture?
Yeah.
It's not that she walks
around Gemma-mode at home.
- Sometimes.
- Sometimes.
But that sort of fierce
maternal determination
in terms of "I'm gonna
put my kids first,
and my kids
are everything.
"
And-- You know, 'cause
[Laughs]
Not to go down this road,
but I didn't have that growing up,
so, um
You don't need to whisper it.
It was sort of like--
It's okay, we're safe here.
It's okay.
So it was sort of like,
"wow,
that's what a mother does.
"
[Laughter]
- So, um--
- I love that.
Aww.
Poor Kurt.
So, it was--
Aww, I'm sorry.
No, this is basically therapy,
Kurt.
Is there things that you--
I mean,
he wrote it with you in mind,
but are there things
that connected to you
from the very beginning
of understanding Gemma?
When we got together
as a couple,
I already had two children,
and--
She didn't tell me that
till after we were married.
I knew it.
I knew it.
"Wait a minute,
the kids carrying
the flowers are yours?"
Can I tell the--
A story about one of the bumps?
- Remember with the script?
- Which bump?
When you were like--
We were--
Oh, well,
I guess you're going to.
You basically told it.
You sort of half told it
in that moment.
- I think you have to now.
- What happened?
In season one, we were in the
kitchen talking about something
and you just inadvertently,
like, leafed through the script
and you're like,
"well, it doesn't really matter
'cause I'm
hardly in this one.
"
[Laughter]
- And I was just like--
- That's fantastic.
I'm just like-- I'm like,
"what the [bleep]?
Did you just [bleep]
say that to me?"
- Did I really do that?
- Yeah, yeah, you remember it.
And that's when--
Probably the last time
I said that.
Yeah, that's when we decided,
"we should go talk
to somebody about this.
"
The relationship there, yeah.
But that--
But then we didn't--
- You didn't do that again.
- Well--
But I like that
you would go there and--
You wrote me in more,
didn't you?
It worked.
It worked.
- Did I embarrass you?
- Yeah, you did.
You embarrassed me.
It's okay.
- Well, while they--
- I've done my job.
When we come back,
we'll ask the writers to defend
some controversial scenes
they've written,
and insider secrets when
The Writers' Room continues.
Welcome back to
The Writers' Room.
I'm here with Sons of Anarchy.
You have fans who obviously
are gonna have scenes
that got them worked up.
Let's find out what they are
in a segment we call
Why did you have
to kill off Opie?
He's the one guy
that was so good.
It was rough.
It was, um--
That decision.
And everyone understood it creatively,
you know?
And everyone was a little off
that season emotionally.
It was a rough season,
you know?
- First we lost Piney
- Mm-hmm.
And there was definitely
an emotional response to that.
But when we lost Opie,
I mean, people were pissed.
I mean, they cold-cocked
the [bleep] out of him.
[Laughs]
You know?
- Mm-hmm.
- And it was so-- And he took--
It was like he took it
for the team.
Yeah.
I love writing action,
you know?
I love, you know,
the dark humor.
That stuff is really fun
and juicy for me to write.
And I look at all that stuff
as sort of the candy
that gets people excited
and that sort of pulls 'em in
and they show up.
But then at the end of the day,
you know,
I think when that
all falls away within that,
I'd like to think that there's
really three-dimensional
characters.
There's really poignant
and potent relationships.
And that the reason
they keep coming back,
and I think the reason why
they're connected to the show
is because of that--
The emotionality of it.
- Yep.
- You know what I mean?
Ryan Hurst played Opie,
and when--
After his demise,
I think he had a hard time letting go.
- Yeah.
- So, I want to show this video.
You can sort of
tell us about it.
Yeah, I wasn't there for this.
It was really the actors
who took it upon themselves
to do this and record it.
Ryan had grown that beard,
and it really had become
such an iconic part
of the character.
He was having trouble shaving.
He just-- He was having
trouble letting go of Opie,
and so they got together and
they bought him this present,
which was this
actual Samurai sword.
And then they used that
as part of the ritual
to essentially purge the beard,
but also to help Ryan
sort of purge that character
and essentially let him go,
you know?
It's really,
really heartbreaking.
Yeah.
Let's see the scene that
the fans were most shocked about
in all of your seasons.
It's the Otto love scene.
Is it?
You think?
In the end of last season,
Gemma killed Tara
in such a violent, brutal,
and bloody manner.
Oh, yeah.
Why did you decide
that Jax's wife had to die?
And why did she
have to die that way?
Now let's watch that scene.
[Both grunting]
[Gurgles]
[Grunting]
[Yelling]
Holy [bleep].
Oh, my God.
Had to be done.
Had to be done.
I have work to do.
Had to be done.
I love "it had to be done.
"
[Sighs]
'Cause that is sort of what
we're talking about, you know?
It had to be done.
What was it like shooting that?
It was choreographed,
and it was somewhat, you know--
The physicality of it
was really mapped out.
Mm-hmm.
It was one of those things where,
in the character's mind,
she has committed the absolute
worst thing she could do.
- Mm-hmm.
- And it also comes off
a scene with her love interest,
Nero,
who's played by Jimmy Smits,
where he's telling her,
you know,
that this is pretty much over,
and she's just had it.
There was so much push
and pull and promises broken,
I just felt
she had gotten to this place,
in the light of everything
that's happening,
that she could no longer take
another broken promise.
She could no longer take
anything else that potentially,
you know, could put her family
into harm's way, and--
And the kids are gone.
The grandkids are gone.
Everything that means
anything to this woman is gone,
- and it's her fault.
- Yeah.
And that was the commitment.
You know,
that's where I was committed to go.
In terms of structure
and the series,
this coming
into our last season,
I knew I wanted to begin it
with Jax in a very
specific emotional place
as a result
of obviously losing,
as we tend to call her,
sort of his moral compass,
his true north.
Tara was somebody that really,
you know,
was his sort of,
you know, beacon.
- You know?
- Mm-hmm.
You know,
that was his sort of source of "who am I?"
"Oh, that's
what's important.
"
You know,
there's a very thin line now
between
the truth and the secret,
and that's sort of
where I needed him to be
at the start
of this last season.
And that was really
the only way to get there.
Yeah.
You know,
I'll tell this funny story.
I did a signing a week
after the episode aired.
And I'm standing in li--
There's people standing in line,
and I'm autographing,
I'm autographing,
and all of a sudden
there's about ten people
that show up
with a carving fork.
And they want me to sign the fork,
and I thought, oh--
I mean, it was so bizarre
because I did have
the thought, like,
"oh, I think everybody's gonna
really hate Gemma now,"
but they were actually--
They were on the Team Gemma
side of things.
They went and got
their meat fork.
- Carving forks.
- A carving fork, yes.
- Yeah, it was wild.
- Oh, that's fantastic.
When we come back,
we'll ask Kurt and Katey
about the importance
of fan interaction
when The Writers' Room
continues.
Welcome back to
The Writers' Room.
I'm here with Sons of Anarchy.
Now, we have writers,
we have creators and showrunners,
and the actresses
and the actors involved,
all sort of available to them
through social media.
They can find you.
That's a new thing.
- Very new.
- When you become a celebrity
- Right, right.
- Among all these people,
'cause you're giving them
an inside track
that they can
only get from you.
Correct.
Correct, yeah.
So do you love your celebrity?
You know, I really do.
I think it, uh--
I think it helps the show.
I definitely feel like
as a result of that,
the show's benefitted.
I've definitely benefitted from that,
you know?
It's definitely raised
my profile in the industry,
and, you know,
as a result of that,
some of that profile is
not necessarily a good thing,
but it's-- It's there.
Yes, well,
that's a perfect segue.
Thank you, Kurt,
because I do have a few of your tweets
that I would love the honor
of having you read.
Okay.
This is during the Emmy's.
I think it was season two.
It was after the great work
Katey had done,
and we didn't get any love.
And I think, you know,
there was a co--
It was one of those years where,
like,
the typical, usual suspects
were yet once again nominated.
It was just frustration,
and it's really--
You know,
was done in the context
- of making fun of myself.
- Mm-hmm.
And I was laughing my *** off
as I was sending
these things out,
and had no idea that
they would be taken literally.
Read that for us.
"If my mom and dad were alive,
"this Emmy snub
would kill them.
"That's not true.
"They were too old
to understand my show.
Just like the Academy.
"
[Laughter]
The stuff I tweet is insane,
and do I really think that?
- Do I really--
- Yeah.
I just like to go,
"if I said that,
what would the reaction be?"
And I was caught off guard
by the response
- and the impact that it had.
- Yeah.
I have to ask you
about this letter,
because it just thrills me.
- Oh.
- I think this was a framed--
- Yes, I framed it.
- You framed it?
- Yes.
- Which is fantastic.
You framed it,
and just to give a little backstory,
if I can,
I'm gonna sort of--
I guess it was--
There was some budget issues,
and it feels like someone,
an executive
- Right.
- Needed to make that point
- Right, right.
- To you or to someone.
And I'm just gonna read
this one little part of it.
"As you are aware,
most recently,
"when Fox's Executive
Vice President of Production
"approached Mr.
Sutter about
scheduling a budget meeting,
"Mr.
Sutter responded,
'here's what's gonna happen.
"'You're gonna crawl
the [bleep] out of my ***
and Cremin and I will deliver
our show on budget.
'"
and now you framed it.
I did frame it.
There's a learning curve,
uh, with everything.
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes, in my case,
that learning curve
involves lawyers.
It was season two of the show.
Fox did not have a great
year at the box office,
and, you know, there was a lot
of internal movement happening,
and they were
just crunching us,
like, literally, like,
to the point of every line item.
Like, everything we wanted
to do they were hammering us.
I just felt like we--
Everything we wanted to do
was sort of being shut down.
I just chose
very specific language
- to express that point.
- Mm-hmm, yeah.
So that's on my wall
to remind me I have a bigger
impact than I think,
and that when
I do something like that,
it's not just me
that gets impacted.
It's-- It involves a lot
of people and it serves no one.
It's like that moment
you're supposed to take
after you write
a really angry email
- Right.
- And don't send.
And then you're supposed
to just take a break
- before you send it
- Right.
And then you go back
and either go,
- "no, they deserve it--"
- He had to learn that too.
- Really?
- Yeah.
- You need to take a five?
- I don't like that rule.
Yeah.
Okay.
On the other end
of the spectrum,
we know that you guys
had actually a parody
on Sesame Street.
- Like, "Sons of Poetry.
"
- Right, we did.
So that--
That's a huge honor.
Yes, it is.
It is.
- We clearly have made it, yes.
- Yeah.
No, you've made it when
you are a Sesame Street puppet.
I know.
Let's watch how they made your
show into a teaching moment.
We're the Sons of Poetry.
We rhyme all the time.
What?
It's not a crime.
Just a hobby.
Right, Bobby?
No big, Tig.
You need a rhymin' word?
That's what we heard.
Um, yes.
I need a word
that rhymes with "blue.
"
The rhyme is "shoe.
"
Shoe?
"Shoe" rhymes with "blue.
"
They end the same.
Yeah, ask the dame.
I love that.
I love that.
[Laughs]
- That's so great.
- You've made it, Kurt.
Can I tell you?
It's--
Not only is it really smart
in the way they've structured
the lesson behind it,
but, like, they have
the relationships down.
They have character traits down.
It's clearly whoever put that
together has watched the show.
- Oh, absolutely.
- Which was so cool.
- That's very cool.
- Yeah.
When we come back,
we'll talk about the final
season of Sons of Anarchy
when The Writers' Room
continues.
Welcome back to
The Writers' Room.
I'm here with Kurt Sutter
and Katey Sagal
from Sons of Anarchy.
I wouldn't be doing my job
if I didn't at least ask
if there's anything
that you can hint towards
things you need to do
in season seven.
I think what we have now
is we have a hero
who has been cut loose
of all the things
that kept him a decent
and somewhat responsible man.
You know,
he's writing in those journals,
"here's what I want for you,
sons.
"
And does that
even matter now with--
- Oh, the children.
- With the loss of this?
You know, where--
Where do the--
What's his rel--
How does that change his relationship
with his boys and his
relationship with the club?
You know, with that--
You know, with that gone,
what fire does that set,
you know?
- Yeah.
- So there'll be fires.
Yes, there will be fires.
But I want to thank you both.
And I also want to show you
the power of television
and suggestion
because Katey shared a story,
so we had to send somebody out
because I'm going to get one
of these signed for myself.
All right?
Because I want to be in on that.
So we'll get
this signed afterwards.
Thank you for being with us,
and we'll see you next time
on The Writers' Room.
In the meantime,
because, Kurt, you've got
- that wonderful twisted mind
- Yes?
I want us to look
around this room
and decide what would best
to bludgeon someone
- in an upcoming episode.
- Oh, wow.
My choice is the typewriter
or these weird spheres in this--
No, dude.
No, dude.
What you do is
you strap them to that wheel,
and you just keep going around,
and you just dig it
further into their face
with every rotation
of the wheel.
- Just keep going and going
- It's so-- It's--
Till there's treads, like,
up and down
with just the body parts.
[Groans]
That's what you do, man.
- It's so easy for you.
- It is.
Well, you can take that home
and write season seven.
- Thank you, thank you.
- Congratulations.