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PAUL JAY: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore.
French actor GĂ©rard Depardieu, in order to avoid a proposed new tax on the very wealthy--apparently
about 75 percent--has decided to give up his French citizenship and, on offer from President
Putin, has now become a Russian citizen. He's already been given his Russian passport in
a meeting with President Putin.
Now joining us to talk about all of this is Professor Aleksandr Buzgalin. He's a professor
of political economics at Moscow State University. He's also editor of the independent democratic
magazine Alternatives. Thanks for joining us again, Aleksandr.
ALEKSANDR BUZGALIN: Thank you, and I'm glad to be on your program.
JAY: So what do you make of all of this? Why did President Putin step in? And most of the
attention so far has been on Depardieu and his--apparently they're proposing a 75 percent
tax. And this is, to put it in some context, the tax on the very wealthy in the United
States after World War II was 90 percent, so it's not like this is so crazy outrageous.
But Depardieu's gone. But what's in this for Putin?
BUZGALIN: This is really very symbolic, because in my country, in Russia, we had a lot of
debates about Putin's policy. And even among left, it was such opinion that Putin is supporter
of ordinary people. But this step, when Putin decided to support Depardieu, who left his
country, who left France because he didn't want to and he doesn't want to pay normal
taxes--I think--normal taxes for the rich, this is very symbolic, because Putin saw that
really he's a right-wing politician, that flat income tax in Russia is not an accident.
This is the strategy of our authorities, of our officials. And this is really dangerous
from one side and important from another side, because all this show around Depardieu is
only attempt to show that Russia is good place for foreigners. But it's not true.
JAY: Well, it shows that it's a good place for rich foreigners. What is the tax rate
in Russia for the very wealthy?
BUZGALIN: So everybody now in Russia pays--everybody pays 13 percent, one-three for everybody.
If you are an extremely rich oligarch and you have billions of dollars, you will pay
13. If you are a poor doctor or teacher or worker, you pay the same, 13 percent. And
by the way, if you speculate on the stock market, if you speculate on the foreign currency
market, you will not pay, even, 13 taxes, because this is a reinvestment of their income.
So really rich in my country can pay 6, 5, maybe 7 percent. And this is opposite to all
European countries, and opposite even to the United States.
And really in the crisis we must find solution and we must find who will pay for the crisis.
Our opinion was and is that those who created crisis must pay for this crisis. I think story
with Depardieu is also very symbolic, because we can again examine so-called arguments of
the right-wing economists and politicians, and they are very primitive. But I want to
repeat my debates. First argument, that left, everybody among the left wants to take money
from the people who are working hard and give money to those who do nothing and who are
just parasites.
But what is reality? In reality, Depardieu now is mainly not an actor. He's a rentier.
And he is nobody for the real economic development. He is simply taking money from his past star
status. And that's it. Nothing else. Normal actor, if he is talented, he's real creator,
main motivation for him will be creativity himself, opportunity to give his talent to
the people, the reception by the people, the applause of the people, but not money themself.
So who will pay this big income tax in France, in the Scandinavian countries? Who must pay,
I think, this tax in Russia (but they are not paying this tax, unfortunately, in my
country) first of all, all financial speculators, second, all people who are quasi stars for
creating simulacrums of so-called mass collage.
Depardieu is good actor, maybe not very good actor--it's not my problem. The problem is
that mainly these quasi stars in professional sport and mass culture, they're just simulacra
of real creativity. And what is important, even talent manager, top manager, if he is,
first of all, creator of new organization, of new production, of new innovations, of
innovations themselves, he is working as creator, and for creator, it's enough to have maybe
ten times more wage or income than ordinary worker.
Only one example, Finnish transnational corporation Nokia. It's not the paradise of the socialism
at all. This is transnational capitalist corporation. But in Finland, the top manager of Nokia has
only ten times more than ordinary worker in Finland. And this is normal. And Depardieu
can have ten times more than ordinary actor or ordinary citizen, ordinary teacher, or
social worker in France. This is normal for good life. Nobody take everything from Depardieu.
This is only problem of income for another million of Europe per year. So this is money
which he will spend for nothing, for symbolic, prestige consumption.
JAY: Right. Aleksandr, what's in this for Putin? Why draw such attention to the fact
that the rich in Russia pays such low tax rates? Why does he want this in terms of Russian
public opinion?
BUZGALIN: So, first of all, in Russia we have another image. In Russia, everybody in mass
media is trying to show that Depardieu came because Russia is paradise of democracy, Russia
is paradise of economic development, Russia is paradise for investments, and so on and
so far. This is propagandistic show which is very far from the truth. Really, Russia
is becoming like a huge offshore zone, like a small island where you can not pay taxes.
Now it will be in Russia. It's really terrible. And I am not proud at all that my country--not
my country, but the president of my country is trying to realize such policy.
JAY: So this is a big PR campaign is Russia as a tax haven.
BUZGALIN: Yes, for foreigners as tax haven, for Russians, that such fantastic people like
Depardieu--it's not my opinion, again; this is mass media opinion--is coming to Russia.
And that means that West loves Russia. And really it's not true. I'm not speaking about
normal relations between ordinary people in the United States, in Europe, in China. We
can have friendship, we can have common campaign for defense, our civil rights, our social
rights, for protection of a college education and so on, and we can love each other. But
the problem is that Russia, for real business, is bad country with corruption, without long-term
investments, without state programs which can guarantee investments, because country's
in the chaos in many aspects, with a lot of problems in infrastructure, with fixed capital,
and so on and so far. That's why it's just PR. This is just their lie, if I can say so.
JAY: Aleksandr, now, when Depardieu made this announcement, he talked about how democratic
Russia was and how it allowed free debate and all of this. How did Russians respond
to those comments?
BUZGALIN: So, first of all, of course we have some elements of democracy. And it's not fascist
regime and it's not a totalitarian regime. But from another side, this is so-called manipulative
democracy, and we have concentration of power in the hands of presidential administration
and ruling party in the parliament, in Duma. Real opposition is under the control, under
the pressure. To organize normal meeting is nearly impossible. To organize normal strike
is nearly impossible. You will be, in next day, arrested, or you will lose your job,
simply. This is country where all central TV channels are under the control of president
or its administration or another officials. And in this situation it's really very difficult
to say truth.
It's possible to do it in internet, in small opposition newspapers, it's possible to fight
in the streets, but this is real fight, and a lot of my friends were arrested, beaten.
And it's permanently nervous atmosphere, and nobody knows when KGB or police will come
and say that you are hooligan or something like that because you wanted to meet your
friends or to tell together that it's not really social-oriented development in Russia,
in my country. We are trying to do this. And I love my country. I never will go to France,
even in France if I will have, I don't know, ten times more wage here. And I think I can
have, as professor, more wage in the West. But I love my country and I will work here.
JAY: I guess for Depardieu, saving 60 percent on his taxes, it's not a big price to pay
to do some democratic rhetoric about Russia.
BUZGALIN: But really he made very bad joke, if it is joke, or maybe very negative decision,
because he lost his name in the eyes of, I think, all normal socially oriented, democratic,
simply intelligent people. And I am very sorry for Depardieu, because he's really good actor,
and to do this, it's like a bad game to save another million or two million of euro for
lie and to tell open lie because you will have for this some million of euro. This is
not a beautiful decision at all.
And, by the way, one more very important detail which I want to stress: very often we say
that all poor people has envy, and that's why we want to redistribute everything. It's
not true. The real envy [incompr.] the rich people who wants to have not one palace, but
two palaces, not, I don't know, boat 100 meters, but boat 130 meters, or something like that.
They have this feeling of envy which moves them not to pay taxes, which moves them to
consume more and more and more.
And for the left, idea of using--of taxes, money from taxes, is opposite. We are thinking
about development, development of education, development of ecological programs, development
of science, development of social support for ordinary people to become more skilled,
more educated, more developed, to support culture. So we are fighting for development,
and they're fighting for the consumption of rentier. This is the case.
JAY: Thanks very much for joining us, Aleksandr.
BUZGALIN: Thank you very much, Paul.
JAY: Thank you for joining us on The Real News Network.